’Mech of the Week: AS7-D-H* Atlas II

[jklantern]

Points taken, but are you talking about the AS7-D, or the Atlas II?

cheers,

Gabe

Atlases of all kinds, regardless of actual level of utility.

[Orin J.]

we should probably focus on the "same great taste with half the calories" Atlas II though.

My goodness, that's darn near quote worthy.

I wouldn't want to be quoted anyways. people might think i'm advocating giant wind-up toy robots in girdles, and that's the last trend i want to risk starting.

[SteelRaven]

I have always seen the H2 as the proper successor to the original. The Gauss Rifle and ER PPC cover allot of range brackets with decent amount of hurt while retaining the LRMs, SRMs and two Medium Lasers. It's more or less what the Atlas AS7- K was trying to aim for.

Pair this with a King Crab or a Highlander (or both) and you could probably hear the enemy commander shout 'bring me my brown pants!' 

I can imagine we could get allot more out of the Atlas 2 but for whatever reason, we don't see any new versions of machine after Devlin's costume ride.   

[A. Lurker]

Points taken, but are you talking about the AS7-D, or the Atlas II?

cheers,

Gabe

Frankly, I'm not entirely sure what exactly the problem is that fans of the former would have with the latter. That it lacks the big phallic boomstick? Sheesh.  ::)

The Atlas II basically addresses the weakness of the original Atlas -- its combination of low speed and short range that makes it easy to avoid. I like the AS7-D as much as the next guy, but in play its main strength really is all that armor plating one needs to chew through to bring it down, not its firepower that it'll either have trouble bringing to bear against its opposition on anything bigger than a postage stamp or else find itself unable to sustain for long before its ammo bins start to dry up (and a solitary pair of medium lasers plus a second one aft really isn't much to write home about).

By contrast, the II may not really be faster, but it can seriously start to reach out and touch enemies with more than just its limited supply of LRMs at literally twice the range of its cousin. It'll run hot doing so, yes, probably necessitating switching one ERLL out of and then back into the firing cycle on alternate turns, but that's still a capability the 7-D doesn't even have.

[gyedid]

Frankly, I'm not entirely sure what exactly the problem is that fans of the former would have with the latter. That it lacks the big phallic boomstick? Sheesh.  ::)

The problem isn't that the Atlas II compares poorly to the AS7-D, which it doesn't.  It's that it compares poorly to other heavy assault 'Mechs the SLDF had access to (Devastator, Thunder Hawk, Nightstar etc.) and doesn't seem so frightening.  (And it was supposed to have been a Royal-exclusive model.)  I think that at the very least, it's the command 'Mech in a company made up of those monsters.

By contrast, the II may not really be faster, but it can seriously start to reach out and touch enemies with more than just its limited supply of LRMs at literally twice the range of its cousin. It'll run hot doing so, yes, probably necessitating switching one ERLL out of and then back into the firing cycle on alternate turns, but that's still a capability the 7-D doesn't even have.

It's true that by the time a target closes to a range where the AS7-D can finally bring its AC/20 into play, the Atlas II will have worked it over with its LRMs, ERLLs and LB-10X.  But that still seems like a weak work-over compared to what the aforementioned 'Mechs can do.

cheers,

Gabe

[A. Lurker]

The problem isn't that the Atlas II compares poorly to the AS7-D, which it doesn't.  It's that it compares poorly to other heavy assault 'Mechs the SLDF had access to (Devastator, Thunder Hawk, Nightstar etc.) and doesn't seem so frightening.  (And it was supposed to have been a Royal-exclusive model.)  I think that at the very least, it's the command 'Mech in a company made up of those monsters.

It's true that by the time a target closes to a range where the AS7-D can finally bring its AC/20 into play, the Atlas II will have worked it over with its LRMs, ERLLs and LB-10X.  But that still seems like a weak work-over compared to what the aforementioned 'Mechs can do.

cheers,

Gabe

As far as I can see on short notice, the Devastator wasn't available -- the MUL places the intro date of the oldest variant into 3036, and that's the AC/10-armed 1D model. So that's one down right there.

Even if it wasn't for that, though, you're basically comparing dedicated anti-'Mech specialists (Nightstar, Thunder Hawk) to a more general-purpose machine (Atlas II) right in said specialists' area of expertise (that is, against 'Mech opposition only), so naturally enough said comparison comes pre-loaded right out of the gate. And don't try to tell me that the Gauss rifle isn't primarily a dedicated anti-'Mech weapon -- pretty much the first thing anyone on this site will have to say about it is that it can take a 'Mech's head off in a single shot from 22 hexes away, not that it can remove almost a ton of standard plate from a tank at the same distance, after all...

[Akira213]

The Devastator was in prototype stage when Alex left. He had a few Prototypes available and took all oc them with him. And I agree, that take it pretty much out of the equation.

The Nightstar was in mass production but it had its special niche on the battlefield: being bodyguard of command Marauders. Thats what it was build for, and since the Marauder was so widely accepted as command Mech, most of the Nightstars had to fill their role too - I guess. Does that take the Nightstar out of the counting? IMO at least a little bit.

The T-Hawk was build as fire support plattform, while the Atlas II is more a multirole fighter... like a Thunderbolt, Orion or maybe Albatross (although that one came way later). And I think in the intended role it does quite well.

And to be honest, if that T-Hawk runs out of ammo and the Atlas II runs out of ammo - I'd be pretty happy to ride an Atlas II ;)

Hm, one thing that didnt come up yet - and which is even nowadays one of the most important factors overall - is the costs. How does it look there? (maybe also regarding that the AS7-D is long time in service - regarding spareparts, tech-training and such)

All on all I like the Atlas II. Although it has a completely different role than the old AS7-D. Well, regarding the design. The miniature is just plain ugly, amd will definitely never find its way into my mech box.

[cold1]

It's a Swiss Army knife with 19 tons of armor.  I think it's better not as the commanders ride, but as the bodyguard for the commander's ride.  It can deal with multiple threats of any variety.  Give the boss man a Nightstar, then give the guy next to him an Atlas II.  They can combine fire on long range targets to remove them quickly.  If fast movers or aero attempts to get close the Atlas pilot has an app for that.  It's still also capable of dealing with the other brute of the era, just takes a little finesse and luck.  You're going to sandblast the other guy with multiple hits and hope one of the 16 (possible 4 x LRM, 2 x ERLL, 10 x LBX) hits you can put on him hits something important before his big guns blow you apart.  It's not a great solution, but not bad either.

I like the II much better than the original, it's a bigger threat on the board.

[gyedid]

As far as I can see on short notice, the Devastator wasn't available -- the MUL places the intro date of the oldest variant into 3036, and that's the AC/10-armed 1D model. So that's one down right there.

I suppose I meant the Pillager, but was the PLG-3Z model available to the Star League?  The dual AC/20 one was...

Even if it wasn't for that, though, you're basically comparing dedicated anti-'Mech specialists (Nightstar, Thunder Hawk) to a more general-purpose machine (Atlas II) right in said specialists' area of expertise (that is, against 'Mech opposition only), so naturally enough said comparison comes pre-loaded right out of the gate. And don't try to tell me that the Gauss rifle isn't primarily a dedicated anti-'Mech weapon -- pretty much the first thing anyone on this site will have to say about it is that it can take a 'Mech's head off in a single shot from 22 hexes away, not that it can remove almost a ton of standard plate from a tank at the same distance, after all...

When you put it that way, the -H2 seems the more anti-'Mech-dedicated of the two variants, with the Gauss Rifle and ER PPC.
The -H looks like it would be better at anti-vehicle and anti-aero work.

cheers,

Gabe

[A. Lurker]

I suppose I meant the Pillager, but was the PLG-3Z model available to the Star League?  The dual AC/20 one was...

MUL puts its intro date at 2594, so yes. In fact, that makes it about 160 years older than the first Atlas.

[Wrangler]

I forgot about the Pillager 1Z model.  Twin A/C 20s, pair of medium lasers, srm 4 and rear firing medium.  Still respectable amount of firepower with 10 rounds of fire per gun.  This must been a terror on the battlefield.  You have keep it range just try not get mutilated.  9.4 mil is not that bad for something like this.

It must not been widely production, or Atlas and II won't have became favorites I would think.

[gyedid]

I forgot about the Pillager 1Z model.  Twin A/C 20s, pair of medium lasers, srm 4 and rear firing medium.  Still respectable amount of firepower with 10 rounds of fire per gun.  This must been a terror on the battlefield.  You have keep it range just try not get mutilated.  9.4 mil is not that bad for something like this.

It must not been wide production, or Atlas and II won't have became favorites I would think.

The point here is that the PLG-3Z, a 'Mech with one of the most complete weapons packages in the Inner Sphere, was available to the SLDF from the tailend of the Reunification War onwards.  It kind of makes even the AS7-D look redundant.

cheers,

Gabe

[SteelRaven]

Blame that on Fasa, "the IS just rediscovered a mech more capable than the starter box Atlas...again... because we need to sell more Battletechnology."

It all would have made allot more sense if Fasa did similar to the Royal Designs before the Titan and the other but that's all hindsight now. 

[A. Lurker]

The point here is that the PLG-3Z, a 'Mech with one of the most complete weapons packages in the Inner Sphere, was available to the SLDF from the tailend of the Reunification War onwards.  It kind of makes even the AS7-D look redundant.

cheers,

Gabe

Well, the 3Z does sport an expensive XL engine (C-bill-wise, if the Star League had used C-bills yet, you could get two AS7-Ds for one PLG-3Z and have change for a light 'Mech left over) and I'd disagree on the "complete weapons package" -- all you've got on it is straightforward direct fire with no mission flexibility whatsoever, just point-and-shoot anti-armor stuff. So the Atlas certainly does make sense to me...if perhaps more as a 100-ton trooper to help (imposingly) fill the ranks than as any sort of "ultimate 'Mech".

[Orin J.]

Well, the 3Z does sport an expensive XL engine (C-bill-wise, if the Star League had used C-bills yet, you could get two AS7-Ds for one PLG-3Z and have change for a light 'Mech left over) and I'd disagree on the "complete weapons package" -- all you've got on it is straightforward direct fire with no mission flexibility whatsoever, just point-and-shoot anti-armor stuff. So the Atlas certainly does make sense to me...if perhaps more as a 100-ton trooper to help (imposingly) fill the ranks than as any sort of "ultimate 'Mech".

i doubt it was ever intended to be an "ultimate 'mech"....more of a last-gasp attempt at ensuring the league's continued strength by having a (comparatively) cheap assault 'mech capable of winning battles through sheer brute force and durability.

[A. Lurker]

i doubt it was ever intended to be an "ultimate 'mech"....more of a last-gasp attempt at ensuring the league's continued strength by having a (comparatively) cheap assault 'mech capable of winning battles through sheer brute force and durability.

I don't know about "last gasp", but yeah, I wouldn't see it as particularly "ultimate" either -- I'm not altogether sure any 3/5 'Mech would qualify in that regard, really, their speed tends to stick them into their own specialist niche kind of by default. I'm simply getting the vibe that some of the posters here do think that that lofty goal is exactly what the Atlas should be aiming for.

[cold1]

Yeah but how the SLDF decides it's an ultimate mech is a matter of perspective.

They're likely to deploy them in regimental strength.  And drop the whole unit in on your world.  A zillion lumbering 3/5 assault mechs might move slow, but you have to fight them eventually (or leave the planet).  Ultimately they maneuver you into a fight and likely just keep marching the death masks forward until they roll you over.

[Colt Ward]

Attacking places that must be defended . . .

[Orin J.]

Attacking places that must be defended . . .

defended nothing, a regiment of Atli makes anything short of a castle brian turn into "buy us time to haul off or destroy everything, this site is lost!"

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I'm surprised the Atlas II comes off as Darth Vader or even goofy-looking.

The moment I saw it, the only thing on my mind was "Terminator comes to BattleTech". It looks so much like the T-600 with underarm Gatling gun John Connor and Marcus fought in Terminator Salvation. And pretty much any Terminator that shows up in the "future preview" openings of Terminator movies.

[Kotetsu]

I'm surprised the Atlas II comes off as Darth Vader or even goofy-looking.

The moment I saw it, the only thing on my mind was "Terminator comes to BattleTech". It looks so much like the T-600 with underarm Gatling gun John Connor and Marcus fought in Terminator Salvation. And pretty much any Terminator that shows up in the "future preview" openings of Terminator movies.

I still think the Terminator looking one is the Atlas III.

[SteelRaven]

I still think the Terminator looking one is the Atlas III.

And which atlas inspired that one ;)

[Orin J.]

I'm surprised the Atlas II comes off as Darth Vader or even goofy-looking.

like i believe i said before (too tired to verify) there's a lot of trying too hard in it's design. after a certain point it's hard to take seriously, and becomes a point of ridicule.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

YMMV. For me the Atlas was "bulbous head", Atlas II was Terminator, while Atlas III would be "what happens when Battletech became Shaq's favourite pastime and he decided to deck himself out like a 100-ton monster with a death's head mask and a gatling gun on Halloween"

Seriously the legs of the III look like they belong more on a basketball team's Center player.

[Taurevanime]

Here is a take on the Atlas II in comparison to other contemporary assault 'mechs.

Sure it's armament lacks the big hole punchers that other designs have. Nor is it built around a single weapon or combination of said weapons either. Instead it has this mix of LRM launcher, pulse lasers, SRM launchers and either large lasers and an LBX autocannon or a PPC and gauss rifle. And while the latter option is more catered towards punching large holes in things from a distance, it is still got that LRM launcher and the combo SRM and medium pulse lasers.

I think the problem is that we think of this machine too much as an assault mech, rather than say it's likely role as command mech. These machines would generally not be running at the front of a formation into enemy fire. No, sitting back where one can observe the battle and isn't as directly in harms way is where they belong.  Being further back in the line also tends to mean that the only units that will be attacking it are small fast units. Generally in the light and medium weight categories and perhaps some heavies.
With those opponents in mind and the role of command mech, the Atlas II armament makes more sense. The armament is very well suited to attacking opponents from these lighter weight brackets, with the H2 variant being well suited to face off against opponents in the heavy weight bracket. While the LRM-20 is just a good weapon to have on a command mech that is going to be sitting back so it can assist a little here and there where needed at the very least.

Aside from that. It's a great mech to have in a small merc force because it is capable of doing a little bit of everything. And thankfully the SRM launcher is a standard model, so infernos could be loaded if infantry is expected to be a problem.

[martian]

When the Atlas II was created, the Star League already fielded dedicated Assault Command BattleMechs:
KGC-010 King Crab, BLR-1Gbc Royal BattleMaster or CP-10-Z/HQ Cyclops (and of course MAD-2R Marauder),

[Welshman]

The King Crab doesn't fit the command role well. It's over specialized in blowing big holes in things.

The Cyclops is a great command lance Mech, it's not a good commander's Mech. Look to Brian Cameron as a great example of a Cyclops pilot in a command lance.

The Royal Beemer is a good Command Mech. However the Atlas offers the additional protection the additional 15 tons grants.

[martian]

The King Crab doesn't fit the command role well. It's over specialized in blowing big holes in things.

Not KGC-000, but KGC-010.
Fluff says that it actually was a command 'Mech.

The Cyclops is a great command lance Mech, it's not a good commander's Mech. Look to Brian Cameron as a great example of a Cyclops pilot in a command lance.

Fluff says that:
1) Cyclops was designed as a command BattleMech
2) It is reserved for high-ranking officers
3) It can coordinate brigade-sized formations

The Royal Beemer is a good Command Mech. However the Atlas offers the additional protection the additional 15 tons grants.

I agree. But honestly, I would take the Royal BattleMaster. My MWO experiences show me that having a dedicated command 'Mech can be very useful.

And having a dedicated command 'Mech with a dedicated pilot who handles the 'Mech while you can concentrate on sensors, battlegrid and comms must be a tremendous advantage.

[Welshman]

KGC-010- Yes, and just because it was designed to be a command make doesn't make me think it is a good one.

Cyclops- Commanders don't coordinate entire brigades. They lead. Their Operations/Comms officer does the coordinating. Again, Brian Cameron shows how a Cyclops is used to its fullest.

[Taurevanime]

So yes, an Atlas II working as a command mech that is it's own escort is not that crazy of an idea. It is at least capable of taking quite a bit of punishment thanks to a standard engine and CASE.