Author Topic: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?  (Read 3727 times)

Akalabeth

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Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« on: 23 April 2011, 01:33:05 »
I've never bought the Harvest Trials whatsoever.
As I understand it, basically mechwarriors and entire units from other clans, basically abandoned their own clan to join Clan Wolf and to a lesser extent Jade Falcon so they could invade the inner sphere instead of sitting in the kerensky cluster? Is this pretty accurate?

But like, most of the clans portrayed in the novels and sourcebooks tend to show a particular distaste for other clans. Sure they might respect a clan, but willingly abandon your own to join someone else? Especially a clan that is at the time on its dying legs?

It's always seemed like some cheap gimmick to get Clan wolf back up to full strength so the fans wouldn't complain when they were rightly absorbed or destroyed by someone else. As they well should have been. Same goes for Jade Falcon really. Have a Refusal War that effectively destroys both clans, and then have those clans miraculously rebuild right afterwards.

Right . . . .


Fletch

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #1 on: 23 April 2011, 01:38:30 »
Horses picked up Wolf's Omega Galaxy on their way into the IS during the Jihad.  Was a good way for Wolf to rid themselves of those that identified as Warden.

I guess for the original IS invasion, with the way politics worked out, if I was a clanner going to be stuck at home while other clans went for Terra I would looking to get into the action anyway I could.  (personal note:  I wouldn't go JF  ;) and I just used a contraction.....)

Hellraiser

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #2 on: 23 April 2011, 01:49:38 »
You have to realize that every clan warrior is just foaming at the mouth for combat & the IS worlds were seen as lost paradises.

Then you factor in many homeworlds warriors were pissed at their leadership for NOT getting a spot in the invasion.

Lastly the Wolves & Falcons while you see them as being "On their last legs" were actually the 2 most powerful & successful clans in the history of the clans, these guys were the elite, the popular kids, the 2 clans most favored by the Founder, etc etc.

Then toss in the fact that the entire clan society is trials to easily allow possession of things, including warriors, to change hands quickly, and well, I'm sure some of them were aching to jump ship if it meant traveling to the IS.

If you don't agree then I would look at Professional Sports,  how many athletes jump ship from their team to either A. get more money, or B. get on a team that is going the the playoffs ?


It wasn't the most well thought out option IMHO, but it wasn't completely beyond the realm of possibility.

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Akalabeth

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #3 on: 23 April 2011, 01:53:25 »
Yeah but you have like who units joining apparently. When you've got more than one guy, it's no longer about personal self-interest it's about the interest of your clan as a whole. I mean basically to me this all seems like treason. Abandoning your clan to join another, even under some flimsy pre-text of combat or what not.

What's the point of invasion honours if you dishonour yourself in the process? May be not to the letter of the law, but it certainly seems under the spirit of the thing it seems dishonourable.

Lastly the Wolves & Falcons while you see them as being "On their last legs" were actually the 2 most powerful & successful clans in the history of the clans, these guys were the elite, the popular kids, the 2 clans most favored by the Founder, etc etc.

I think the operative word is WERE though. They were the best, now they're in shambles. The previous Wolf Khan was impeached for whatever. The previous Falcon khan was a politician and was killed on the chamber floor. Who'd want to join these guys? And more importantly, why not simply try to take them out? Call for absorption, attack them, etcetera.
« Last Edit: 23 April 2011, 01:56:22 by Akalabeth »

Fallen_Raven

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #4 on: 23 April 2011, 02:15:40 »
Yeah but you have like who units joining apparently. When you've got more than one guy, it's no longer about personal self-interest it's about the interest of your clan as a whole. I mean basically to me this all seems like treason. Abandoning your clan to join another, even under some flimsy pre-text of combat or what not.

The Founder laid down rules that a warrior can be taken in combat and thus is the new Clan. Not "gets to be a second class citizen," not "as long as he's useful we won't shoot him," from the moment the bond cord is cut till death or yet another capture. In light of that and how fast and lose some Clanners play with the rules I'd be more suprised if people didn't try and jump on the bandwagon.

I think the operative word is WERE though. They were the best, now they're in shambles. The previous Wolf Khan was impeached for whatever. The previous Falcon khan was a politician and was killed on the chamber floor. Who'd want to join these guys? And more importantly, why not simply try to take them out? Call for absorption, attack them, etcetera.

Vlad got a whole mess of badass points from the Crusaders for taking out Critchell, and quite a few from the Falcons too. After years of Ulric bluffing and Osis posturing, Vlad took down his enemy infront of the whole council with his bear hands and asked who was next. Think Blazing Saddles, "don't shoot him, it'll only make him angry."

As for why nobody tried to attack the Wolves or the Falcons, they did. But the Wolves were coming at them, and the Falcons had just tangled with the eliete of the Inner Sphere. That's a pair of sleeping dogs you might not want to wake.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #5 on: 23 April 2011, 02:20:19 »
Yeah but you have like who units joining apparently. When you've got more than one guy, it's no longer about personal self-interest it's about the interest of your clan as a whole. I mean basically to me this all seems like treason. Abandoning your clan to join another, even under some flimsy pre-text of combat or what not.

What's the point of invasion honours if you dishonour yourself in the process? May be not to the letter of the law, but it certainly seems under the spirit of the thing it seems dishonourable. 
Rarely was it a whole unit.
Most of the time it was a couple stars from a cluster, often the "Crusader" stars from a Warden clan/cluster. 
IIRC there was even mention of some of them being undesirables & troublemakers.

Its the clans, they have a rather odd society that while in some ways is similar, in others is very different.
Its not treason to them, its simply being adopted into a new home

Finally, remember than not all of them lost, if they beat the Wolves/Falcons they got whatever they challenged for...supplies etc etc.  They didn't just go out there and power down, they fought, but w/ a bit less enthusiasm maybe than normal and with an agreed upon note to skip the isorla/bondsmen stage and basically go straight to adopted warrior.


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I think the operative word is WERE though. They were the best, now they're in shambles.
More like now they are the size of a small clan instead of the titans they were.
I don't see the Cobras coming along and absorbing them.
And the average Joe Star Captain will likely not know exact statistics of the Wolf & Falcon toumans but will still know that they are in control of the 2 largest OZ's and still have functioning, if smaller, toumans even after beating the crap out of each other.
Hell even the Home Khans would likely not know the full extent of the OZ damage.

Quote
The previous Wolf Khan was impeached for whatever.
And the new one went out there and killed a Khan & the ilKhan right after than.
He then raided the Jags across the Bears OZ and smacked around a Jag cluster.
He backed down the other Khans at the council meeting.
And then by tossing out that little "harvest trial" offer started nipping away at the forces of any clan that might want to challenge them by taking away a star or 2 from each cluster.

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The previous Falcon khan was a politician and was killed on the chamber floor. Who'd want to join these guys? And more importantly, why not simply try to take them out? Call for absorption, attack them, etcetera.
See my notes above on actual knowledge of force size.
Then toss in that the Wolves & Falcons w/ major combat experience are going to be the most elite (if small) force around.
Finally attacking an invading clan then opens up your own territory to counter invasion by another home clan.
The fun and joy of the "Piranha tank" that is the Clan homeworlds is that everyone knows everyone else's business since half of them share worlds and they are all eager to stab each other in the back to gain some territory.

And we've all seen how well the Ice Hellions deep strike to hit the Falcons worked out for them in the Jihad.

And remember, the Wolves had some 26 PGCs in the OZ alone and only 1 Galaxy of 2nd line troops took part in offensive actions IIRC, Tau.
While they were spread thin they still had clusters in the homeworlds that were untouched.
Heck, 26 clusters is as large as some entire small clans, and that was JUST the Wolf OZ Reserves forces.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #6 on: 02 September 2017, 17:51:22 »
Yeah but you have like who units joining apparently. When you've got more than one guy, it's no longer about personal self-interest it's about the interest of your clan as a whole. I mean basically to me this all seems like treason. Abandoning your clan to join another, even under some flimsy pre-text of combat or what not.

What's the point of invasion honours if you dishonour yourself in the process? May be not to the letter of the law, but it certainly seems under the spirit of the thing it seems dishonourable.

I think the operative word is WERE though. They were the best, now they're in shambles. The previous Wolf Khan was impeached for whatever. The previous Falcon khan was a politician and was killed on the chamber floor. Who'd want to join these guys? And more importantly, why not simply try to take them out? Call for absorption, attack them, etcetera.

I think you tapped into a lot of the feelings that led to the reavings

Iron Wolf

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #7 on: 07 November 2017, 20:42:10 »
Then toss in that the Wolves & Falcons w/ major combat experience are going to be the most elite (if small) force around.

I was going to mention this. The invasion, Tukayyid, and the Refusal War are all within the span of several years. The Falcons and Wolves have to be getting pretty lean and honed by then. Even battered and depleted they remain two top tier Clans with battle hardened toumans. I would not bank on superior numbers to win any attempts at absorbing them. 

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #8 on: 07 November 2017, 20:55:16 »
For the Clans losing warriors to the Wolves and Jade Falcons... it provided a release valve for malcontents and underperformers.  Normally the valve on hand is throwing them to the Dark Caste, but throwing them to the Wolves/Falcons provided an alternative.  Possibly even a better alternative, if it allowed troublemakers to go that weren't quite up to the level of warranting the Clan equivalent of the Big Chicken Dinner.

pensiveswetness

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #9 on: 07 November 2017, 21:49:21 »
Yeah but you have like who units joining apparently. When you've got more than one guy, it's no longer about personal self-interest it's about the interest of your clan as a whole. I mean basically to me this all seems like treason. Abandoning your clan to join another, even under some flimsy pre-text of combat or what not.

What's the point of invasion honours if you dishonour yourself in the process? May be not to the letter of the law, but it certainly seems under the spirit of the thing it seems dishonourable.

I think the operative word is WERE though. They were the best, now they're in shambles. The previous Wolf Khan was impeached for whatever. The previous Falcon khan was a politician and was killed on the chamber floor. Who'd want to join these guys? And more importantly, why not simply try to take them out? Call for absorption, attack them, etcetera.
Sure, right after the Refusal War, the Jade Falcons & The Crusader Wolves were a bit short on their TO&E's... but did the rank file clan warriors know HOW short? Consider that the clans, as a rule, held pretty tight control of communications, outside of the Khans of the Homeworld Clans (and maybe highly placed Watch personnel), most people in the home worlds probably did NOT know how badly hurt the Inner Sphere Clans were... otherwise, you most certainly would have seen more Trials of Possession occur (because JF & W were the big kids on the block, knowing they were both down, the other clans would NOT hesitate and go for the throat. The War of Reeving very possibly might have started a decade before, with far different results)... Because nobody did, both clans got lucky...

Wotan

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Re: Harvest Trials - anyone else smell something?
« Reply #10 on: 10 November 2017, 06:08:28 »
And it is not like being a traitor unit by packing all the equipment and leave for the OZ.
They are called Harvest TRIALS by reason. There was combat, there was fighting - maybe in many occasions a bit less hard than usual. But no warrior just leaved their post and travels to the OZ to join a new clan. Everyone had to fight for it, and some might even be captured against their will.
But in few cases those harvest was in any way the elite of their former clan.

The whole thing of the harvest trials was to buy time. Bolster the own garrison, to have enough time to rebuild the "real" troops.