Author Topic: What if the Concordat doesn't drink the idiot juice? (Read 6119 times)

Korzon77 · « **on:** 15 January 2016, 23:35:43 »

In 3025 the concordat was doing pretty well, but then suffered a ton of own goals after that.

What if that doesn't happan? Say, Edward doesn't die and managed to keep his father's paranoia in check or replace him, and so manages to preserve a strong and pragmatic leadership say up through the Jihad. Where does Taurus end up with that?

Deadborder · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 January 2016, 00:35:22 »

Wow, care to be any more prejudicial in the title there?

What happened to the Concordat was the natural outcome of the wheels set in motion in the 1st Ed Periphery sourcebook. The Taurians were allways angry, paranoid and vengeful, and allways were assuming that the FedSuns were out to get them while looking for an excuse to reclaim their lost worlds.

The events of the Jihad started not because of the Taurian govornment but because of the actions of a legacy command that had been on the TDF's rolls for generations. In supporting their actions, the Taurian govornment tried to make the best of a bad situation.

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 January 2016, 02:02:55 »

The TC and SIC almost formed an alliance in 3059, before Jeffrey Calderon was killed. Imagine a FS-backed SIC-TC alliance standing in opposition to a CC-MOC alliance right around that time. The Capellan-St. Ives War gets a bit more interesting, at the very least.

Now let's go one step further, and say that Edward didn't die and, due to him taking over earlier or exerting great influence on his father, the SIC-TC alliance takes place earlier, in the late 30s or early 40s. It's not a Sphere-changing event in the way that the Clan Invasion is, but it could still lead some interesting places.

Korzon77 · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 January 2016, 02:31:15 »

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 January 2016, 02:33:24 »

St. Ives Compact.

Deadborder · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 January 2016, 04:19:19 »

Given that the Taurian people opposed an alliance with the CapCon and MoC, I don't see why they'd be any more open to one with the SIC. It took a change of leadership and Shraplen forcing the issue to make it happen.

snakespinner · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 January 2016, 18:59:56 »

With the amount of hatred towards the CapCon for their actions against the Taurians, it would have been more probable an alliance between the SIC and the Concordat would have worked better as the SIC had no bad blood to bring to the negotiations.
But then I was never able to see how the Trinity alliance could ever have happened in the first place.

jklantern · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 January 2016, 20:19:34 »

Quote from: snakespinner on 16 January 2016, 18:59:56

With the amount of hatred towards the CapCon for their actions against the Taurians, it would have been more probable an alliance between the SIC and the Concordat would have worked better as the SIC had no bad blood to bring to the negotiations.
But then I was never able to see how the Trinity alliance could ever have happened in the first place.

Grover Shraplen was JUST THAT myopic about the FedSuns.

Archangel · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 January 2016, 21:39:34 »

This thread does bring up an interesting possibility. What if the Taurians had joined the Andurien-Magistracy invasion of the Capellan Confederation? Perhaps not throw themselves as much as the Anduriens but sent a couple regiments to regain some lost worlds.

ArkRoyalRavager · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 January 2016, 09:21:29 »

Quote from: Korzon77 on 15 January 2016, 23:35:43

In 3025 the concordat was doing pretty well, but then suffered a ton of own goals after that.

What if that doesn't happan? Say, Edward doesn't die and managed to keep his father's paranoia in check or replace him, and so manages to preserve a strong and pragmatic leadership say up through the Jihad. Where does Taurus end up with that?

I'm surprised the Taurians never made any moves against the Cappies. They've been steadily denuded of worlds and military units by the CapCon that it should overshadow memories of the Reunification War already.

Archangel · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 January 2016, 21:06:40 »

Quote from: ArkRoyalRavager on 17 January 2016, 09:21:29

I'm surprised the Taurians never made any moves against the Cappies. They've been steadily denuded of worlds and military units by the CapCon that it should overshadow memories of the Reunification War already.

Especially since it was the Star League's SLDF that conquered them not the AFFS. They only contributed a small number of units to that front especially after the Taurians wiped the floor with them. Not to mention that it was the Capellans that launched a biological attack on the Taurians that seemingly permanently poisoned one of their worlds' biospheres. Although, to play devil's advocate, House Davion probably insulted the Taurians more by mostly ignoring them. ;)

ArkRoyalRavager · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 January 2016, 03:32:22 »

Ignorance should be bliss. The Taurians just didn't get that during the Jihad.

Deadborder · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 January 2016, 05:59:45 »

The entire Taurian military policy for the Succession Wars was based around the idea that they were going to be invaded by the Federated Suns any minute now. (In return, the FedSuns wondered who the Cow Guys were and why they should be worried). Military Adventurism was never going to be a part of their plan, especially when you consider that they basically let two thirds of the Concordat go during the Succession Wars.

jackson123 · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 January 2016, 20:16:18 »

Always liked the bulls, good mil bad leadership.

Redfaction · « **Reply #14 on:** 27 January 2016, 13:01:11 »

The Taurians have always been a cool faction to me and for a while historically they could rival any Successor State with their warships and even their output. It does get built on in Historical: Reunification War that during buildup to the conflict and start of the Star League that the FedSuns had begun to fear the power of the TC because of its navy. It meant that on four sides they would have had powerful enemies (Kurita, TH, Liao, and Taurians) so they were more than happy to help stomp the "upstarts" into the dust. On top of that, it was Fed Sun businesses that helped plunge the TC into a less advanced state in the first place by making it reliant on both the Hegemony and the Suns.

As for the Cappies, they didn't participate in the Reunification War and left the Taurians alone for the most part following the Age of War. It is only in the 32nd century that they attacked the TC again along the so called "Laconis Front" shortly after the Victoria War. I am not sure what year, but going by some info given by the age of Kaff Doru, it would have been around 3107 or 3108, and that state of affairs has apparently been a simmering conflict between the two nations for a while. Granted, we might be seeing a change in attitude for the TC and FS in the future...

Bergie · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 January 2016, 18:07:41 »

We have a bit of info as to what the Taurians were up to:

1) Though the Cappies have been historic enemies of the Concordat (at least 2 wars in the Age of War IIRC), the Fed Suns ended up taking the vast majority of their territory during the Reunification War. As such, the FedSuns have ultimately (with the help of the SLDF) done more damage to Taurian Pride than the Cappies have.

2) The Taurians (with the exception of their brief war against the Canopians over the New Colony Region) seemed to focus on rebuilding themselves after the fall of the Star League. Everyone was doing badly, and the Taurians decided to reinvest their efforts into rebuilding and defending what they had left rather than burn forces in the Succession Wars.

3) The Taurians have, historically, been isolationist and not particularly imperialistic. Again, aside from the Concordat-Magistracy War I don't believe they have ever fought a war of conquest, and all their previous expansion has been through peaceful colonization and accepting worlds into their nation. As such, getting involved with the Succession Wars would go against their fundamental mindset. The one time they tried this trick, it turned out poorly (see war against Magistracy).

4) During the 3025-3050 era, the Concordat did a LOT of colonizing, and that takes up a LOT of resources that they weren't putting towards their military for expansion. Thomas was building up defenses because of his increased paranoia (made worse by the ravishing his family took), and the Far Lookers took MASSIVE funding to found all those colonies which showed up. This is at least part of what kept the Taurians subdued during that era, and one of the impetuses for Jeffrey taking over as I recall.

5) The Taurians were always more willing to accept a Capellan alliance over a FedSuns one, for as I mentioned above despite the Capellans raiding and going to war with the Taurians, they have historically done less damage (or, at least, were less visible in their imperialism) than the FedSuns. As to an alliance with St. Ives, I don't recall that treaty but I could see issues with that. For one, the Compact was allies with the FedSuns, who are the "Big Bad Imperialists" in the Taurian collective psyche. For two, St. Ives is far away and the Capellans are right on the border. What can a half-dozen worlds with a smaller miltiary (on paper) than the Taurians do? What does the alliance do for them?

6) After Jeffrey's death and Grover took over, he was a proponent of the anti-FS faction (Jeffrey was far more moderate in this). The Cappies made an alliance with the Concordat's historical allies in Canopus, and their express aim was anti-FS. Since the Capellans had a better reputation than the FS did, of course Grover took the chance. The Capellans were on the rise at the time, having bloodied the Suns in retaking most of the Sarna March.

7) While on paper the Capellans left the Taurians high and dry, taking more from them than giving back, the Taurians still came out with a pretty big industrial boost as part of their alliance which is probably why the Taurians didn't withdraw when it became apparent to them that the Canopians were getting a better deal than them. Until the whole Fighting Urukhai incident, the Taurians weren't actively threatened, so they could afford a less-great deal as long as they were still getting some good stuff out of it. After the attack on Taurus (the world that had never fallen, remember) the people of Taurus were inflamed by the breach of their soverignty, made worse by Grover's rhetoric stirring up FS hatred. Combined with the Word of Blake talking Sweet Poison in their ear, the Concordat was gearing to start a war they couldn't win.

8) When the Jihad hit and the Taurians were able to actually take and (for a while) hold territory from the Suns, they started to believe their own hype about taking the war to the Suns and thinking they could win. Only, when the Suns stabilized and could deal with the Taurians attacking them in the boonies, they were able to CRUSH the periphery riffraff. The level of crushing defeat led to the current TC troubles.

Anyway, a few thoughts on the matter.

Bergie · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 January 2016, 18:14:49 »

Going more directly to the question of the thread, the 'idiot juice' started WAY before 3025, and I don't think Edward could have done much to stop at least some of it. If he hadn't died, Thomas might not have gotten QUITE as crazy as he was (watching all your children die or become invalids takes a toll on you) which means he would likely spend less resources and cash on military investments. The Far Lookers may have been less secrative about their colonization, and the Concordat wouldn't have been as angry with Thomas by 3050 because of the shattering of the economy between the colonization expenses and the defense spending. This likely would either have led to the Far Lookers taking MORE money, or the TC being able to invest more money into their economy.

It also likely would have continued the status quo of the Concordat for the past few centuries. They would maintain a strong enough military to ward off raids, but too small of a military for adventurism. There may have been a future conflict over Detroit and its surrounding worlds, but without the drive of Jeffrey we wouldn't have a New Colony Region, and therefore Detroit wouldn't have gotten as much investment and would continue to be a minor world. The Magistracy may have been approached by the Capellans for alliance, but the Taurians would either not be interested due to their isolationism or would have joined up in a more limited role (as an associated power than a full ally), depending on Thomas/Edward's opinion of the Successor States in general.

Either way, the Word of Blake probably would be working harder on the Taurians to get them riled up for the Jihad, but would have to have been more overt about propping them up for this war as they wouldn't have Capellan investment to upgrade their military.

jklantern · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 January 2016, 20:24:50 »

Quote from: Bergie on 28 January 2016, 18:07:41

5) The Taurians were always more willing to accept a Capellan alliance over a FedSuns one, for as I mentioned above despite the Capellans raiding and going to war with the Taurians, they have historically done less damage (or, at least, were less visible in their imperialism) than the FedSuns. As to an alliance with St. Ives, I don't recall that treaty but I could see issues with that. For one, the Compact was allies with the FedSuns, who are the "Big Bad Imperialists" in the Taurian collective psyche. For two, St. Ives is far away and the Capellans are right on the border. What can a half-dozen worlds with a smaller miltiary (on paper) than the Taurians do? What does the alliance do for them?

It's not a Treaty that took place, but was alluded to in the Periphery Sourcebook that came out before FM: Periphery. Basically, The Capellans had been making overtures to Canopus at that time, but Canopus hadn't really hopped on board yet (at this point they still didn't trust STL), so there were rumors of Jeffrey Calderon trying to form an alliance with St. Ives and to try to get Canopus in on THAT instead. Probably a detail or two I'm slightly off on here, but obviously, it didn't take.

Archangel · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 January 2016, 21:28:22 »

Quote from: Bergie on 28 January 2016, 18:07:41

5) The Taurians were always more willing to accept a Capellan alliance over a FedSuns one, for as I mentioned above despite the Capellans raiding and going to war with the Taurians, they have historically done less damage (or, at least, were less visible in their imperialism) than the FedSuns.

The Capellans have done more than their share of damage to the Taurians including the semi-permanent stain of the Brinton Plague. If the Taurians hadn't been so blinded they would have seem that they were merely being used by Sun-Tzu to further his imperialistic ambitions.

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6) After Jeffrey's death and Grover took over, he was a proponent of the anti-FS faction (Jeffrey was far more moderate in this). The Cappies made an alliance with the Concordat's historical allies in Canopus, and their express aim was anti-FS. Since the Capellans had a better reputation than the FS did, of course Grover took the chance. The Capellans were on the rise at the time, having bloodied the Suns in retaking most of the Sarna March.

The Taurians were the only ones fooled into thinking that the alliance was anti-FS. The Canopians were well aware that the alliance was pro-Capellan and took steps to limit their exposure and increase their value as an ally to Sun-Tzu. As long as Sun-Tzu didn't sacrifice too many Canopian lives without good reason (for the Canopians) they were willing to play along.

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7) While on paper the Capellans left the Taurians high and dry, taking more from them than giving back, the Taurians still came out with a pretty big industrial boost as part of their alliance which is probably why the Taurians didn't withdraw when it became apparent to them that the Canopians were getting a better deal than them. Until the whole Fighting Urukhai incident, the Taurians weren't actively threatened, so they could afford a less-great deal as long as they were still getting some good stuff out of it. After the attack on Taurus (the world that had never fallen, remember) the people of Taurus were inflamed by the breach of their soverignty, made worse by Grover's rhetoric stirring up FS hatred. Combined with the Word of Blake talking Sweet Poison in their ear, the Concordat was gearing to start a war they couldn't win.

The Taurians were left high and dry. The only periphery world that got any serious Capellan support was Detroit, a supposedly neutral planet. They were allowed to purchase a lot of advanced technology but when they made inquiries into learning how to manufacture it for themselves they were provided with flimsy excuses. What little benefits they got from the alliance were for the most part wasted during the St. Ives conflict and then the invasion of the FedSuns.

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8) When ~~the Jihad hit and~~ the Taurians were able to actually take and (for a while) hold territory from the Suns, they started to believe their own hype about taking the war to the Suns and thinking they could win. Only, when the Suns stabilized and could deal with the Taurians attacking them in the boonies, they were able to CRUSH the periphery riffraff. The level of crushing defeat led to the current TC troubles.

The war between the Taurians and FedSuns started before the Jihad and Shraplen was deluded into believing that as long as they could hold onto the worlds they held the Star League would restoring those worlds back to the Taurians.

Bergie · « **Reply #19 on:** 29 January 2016, 00:03:45 »

I will debate that the Taurians were left high and dry. Their alliance with the Capellans (and Canopians) and the Word of Blake lead to advanced tech FLOWING into their worlds. Look at Macloed's Land, Pinard, and New Vandenberg and the new units that started showing up. They got Battle Armor, they got advanced aerospace fighters, they got access to warships, they got 'front line' combat experience in the Chaos March and St. Ives (came out of it badly, but it was the first 'real' fighting a Taurian had been in in a while). The Concordat were definately the low partner of the alliance, but they still got things out of it.

Was the price worth it? With the benefit of hindsight, absolutely not. Grover enriched himself, his world (Macleod's Land got MASSIVE upgrades), and fueled his hatred of the Suns. He saw a pro-Capellan idiology as an anti-Suns ideology (which doesn't mean those two are mutually exclusive, especially in 3057-3067), which was backed up as all the other powers in the region were allied together. The Capellans were officially allied with the FWL and Canopus and the DC and OA are too far away to directly affect the Concordat. The whole region was against the FedSuns, and he read into that situation what HE wanted to see. The fact that this wasn't Sun-Tzu's express aim didn't mean that for a long time that was its functional aim. It wasn't until St. Ives that the paint started to peel, but by then Taurus was in it fairly deep.

Prussian Havoc · « **Reply #20 on:** 14 September 2016, 09:55:31 »

Quote from: Korzon77 on 15 January 2016, 23:35:43

In 3025 the concordat was doing pretty well, but then suffered a ton of own goals after that.

What if that doesn't happan? Say, Edward doesn't die and managed to keep his father's paranoia in check or replace him, and so manages to preserve a strong and pragmatic leadership say up through the Jihad. Where does Taurus end up with that?

GREAT POINT!

I will have to check into this part of the Taurian Concordat's timeline. With HBS's BATTLETECH launching Summer 2017, 3025 will be "in-play" for its Solo-Campaign.

With the Aurigan Coalition sharing a fairly long and contiguous border with the Condordat, instability in one will impact / offer opportunity for the other!

Hmm... I best go check out the Taurian 3025-timeline now. Thanks! :)