(Answered UPDATED) WiGE movement over elevated bridges and buildings

[monbvol]

(Total Warfare Page 55-56)

A clarification question that is hopefully a quick one.

If a WiGe or unit using WiGe like movement comes to some sort of canyon where there is a multi-hex long bridge spanning it would the unit be able to move along it using rules similar to following a road in woods and thus also have to worry about the CF of the bridge being high enough to support it or would it have to pay the enhanced MP cost as if there was no bridge there to move across?

As an extension question if there was a string of buildings that would allow a WiGe(or other units using similar movement rules) to traverse on top of them allow such a unit to traverse up them and if so would it allow said unit to pay normal price or the enhanced MP cost of moving over them?

Example for question 2:
Hex A is clear open terrain at level 0.  Hex B would be a level 1 building with enough CF to support the unit(for the sake of the example). Hex C would be a level 2 building again with enough CF.  Hex D same as Hex C.  Would the unit in question be able to move from Hex A to B to C and to D?  What would the MP cost be?


Xotl: Post 15 has been updated.

[monbvol]

Late bump.

[monbvol]

Bump.

I know this one could be a long debated/tough one that can be reasoned either way, so my appreciation for sorting it out.

[monbvol]

Close enough.

[monbvol]

That time again.

[monbvol]

Okay so in reviewing other sections of Total Warfare to figure out some further issues I just realized might result from WiGEs going over buildings/bridges I seem to have a minimal answer that still needs clarification.

Buildings are prohibited terrain for WiGE movement mode.  But this is based on the movement costs table on page 52.  So there is no actual explanation of if this means that WiGE movement mode is only prohibited for going through a building without going over it or if buildings are outright prohibited.  My assumption based on VTOLs also having the same terrain restriction but being able to go over if flying high enough is that the intent is for through without going over to be the case with the added consideration of WiGE movement mode needing specific terrain level combinations/restrictions to fly over otherwise illegal terrain.

As such it is still rather unclear if a WiGE could use a bridge to mitigate it's movement cost penalty for trying to cross a canyon or if it could use a building as a ramp like it could other terrain(assuming the building and legal terrain has sufficient combination of levels to allow the WiGE to go over instead of through) and thus consequently if construction factor would be an issue or not for doing so.

So the sideslipping question I now have as a result.  If a unit using WiGE movement mode sideslipped over a building(because the combination of terrain and building levels would allow the unit in question to stay above it instead of through it) would it still be considered illegal terrain and follow the appropriate rules for sideslipping into otherwise illegal terrain?

Some examples to clarify the new question:

1: A unit using WiGE movement mode sideslips in Hex A(level 0 clear Terrain) and goes into Hex B(level 0 clear terrain with a 1 level tall building).

2: A unit using WiGE movement sideslips in Hex C(level 4 clear terrain) and goes into Hex D(level 0 clear terrain with a level 1 building).

[monbvol]

This does seem to be a tricky one.

[Xotl]

Yeah, it's kind of a sticky issue with the group.  I'll try and get more traction on it shortly: got a major BT project on the go right now.

[monbvol]

I'm not terribly surprised.  There are a lot of side questions and new scenarios that this could present either way.

Thanks for the effort.  If I remember I'll check back in October.

[monbvol]

My sanity challenged memory actually remembered!

Which makes me also start thinking of certain implications of purposefully trying to land on the roof of a building ala landing pad and the building getting destroyed under the WiGE movement mode unit.

If these are the things I'm coming up with on my own I shudder to think about all the implications and revisions you guys are coming up with that need grappling with.

[monbvol]

I do appreciate the effort in trying to get this sorted out.

[monbvol]

I remembered again!

You have no idea how unreasonably happy that makes me these days.

[monbvol]

With how challenged my sanity has been for a while now I'm just glad I keep remembering even if it is a couple days before a month since I last remembered.

[Xotl]

Okay, thank you for waiting as the world's longest discussion drew to an end.

If a WiGe or unit using WiGe like movement comes to some sort of canyon where there is a multi-hex long bridge spanning it would the unit be able to move along it using rules similar to following a road in woods and thus also have to worry about the CF of the bridge being high enough to support it or would it have to pay the enhanced MP cost as if there was no bridge there to move across?

WiGEs get no benefit from bridges.  Therefore, pay the enhanced MP cost as if the bridge was not there.

(Notes: bridges are typically too narrow to provide the "ground" that a "ground effect" vehicle needs. Bridges large enough to potentially "work" are also blessed by suspension pylons, towers, and other obstructions.)

As an extension question if there was a string of buildings that would allow a WiGe (or other units using similar movement rules) to traverse on top of them allow such a unit to traverse up them and if so would it allow said unit to pay normal price or the enhanced MP cost of moving over them?

As the question is phrased, if the buildings are a) adjacent, and b) at exactly the same level, then the WiGE does not pay any additional costs.  If a building is at a different level, though, the WiGE would need to pay the enhanced MP cost of moving over different elevations.

Any questions?

[monbvol]

I knew this one would be a tough and drawn out one because of all the possible side implications of which ever way the answer came out.  So thank you very much for the effort.

Which I think does just leaves the various side questions for situations of side slipping and CF of underlying buildings.

To put said side questions into a proper form:

Does a building thus follow the same rules as other terrain in side slipping situations then?

To provide this benefit does the building need to have a CF high enough to support the weight of the WiGe despite it being airborne?

Oh and just to make sure I'm not extrapolating without a valid basis I assume if the WiGe was flying over varying levels of buildings it could do so as long as the buildings followed the rules for other terrain types to maintain the benefits?

Clarification example for the last question:

WiGe via legal combination finds itself in hex A above a building 4 levels tall.  Hex B is occupied by a building 1 level tall.  Hex C contains a building 2 levels tall.  If the WiGe allows itself to drop to one level above the building in hex B and then proceed to use it's ability to climb one level to enter hex C remaining above the building.  Costing 3 MP to execute this move.

[Xotl]

q) Does a building thus follow the same rules as other terrain in side slipping situations then?
a) please quote rules reference - book & page

EDIT: The following answer is the part that is updated.
q) To provide this benefit does the building need to have a CF high enough to support the weight of the WiGE despite it being airborne?
a) Yes.  If a WiGE attempts to pass over a building whose CF is less than 0.25 x the WiGE's tonnage, the building collapses, and the WiGE drops down over the rubble.

q) Oh and just to make sure I'm not extrapolating without a valid basis I assume if the WiGE was flying over varying levels of buildings it could do so as long as the buildings followed the rules for other terrain types to maintain the benefits?

Clarification example for the last question:

WiGE via legal combination finds itself in hex A above a building 4 levels tall.  Hex B is occupied by a building 1 level tall.  Hex C contains a building 2 levels tall.  If the WiGE allows itself to drop to one level above the building in hex B and then proceed to use it's ability to climb one level to enter hex C remaining above the building.  Costing 3 MP to execute this move.

a) The first question really doesn't provide anything concrete enough to answer.  The example case however can be answered: yes, that's how it works. Buildings add -- for the purposes of WiGE movement -- their number of levels to the height of the underlying hex.

So, for example, if hex A has a level 1 building on level 3 terrain, adjacent hex B has a level 2 building on level 2 terrain, and adjacent hex C has a level 3 building on level 1 terrain, as far as WiGE movement is concerned, all three hexes allow the WiGE to move from A to C without changing 'flight level'.

Anything further?

[monbvol]

To finish off the questions about side slipping the relevant page would seem to be 55 of Total Warfare.

For the rest, I do appreciate the effort and would seem to answer all my remaining questions.

[Xotl]

No worries.  Thanks for being so patient.

Did you have nothing specific in mind for the sideslipping part?

[monbvol]

Well I guess I do need to phrase it a bit better.

Since the rules on page 55 of Total Warfare for side slipping don't mention buildings would they follow the rules listed there as per other terrain types?

Which brings to mind a further clarification of if a building in the side slip path is a level too tall but has insufficient CF to support the WiGe I would assume that it would still result in a collision rather than the WiGe collapsing the building by a level correct?

[monbvol]

And just thought of one more possible edge case scenario that the new ruling may effect that is not addressed in the side slipping rules on page 55 of Total Warfare.

If a WiGE sideslip does take it into a hex with a building that rises only one level above the underlying terrain but does not have sufficient CF does it immediatly collapse?

[Xotl]

Since the rules on page 55 of Total Warfare for sideslipping don't mention buildings would they follow the rules listed there as per other terrain types?

Rule section in question:
WiGE vehicles entering a hex greater than one level above their current hex likewise crash

From the previous clarification: "Buildings add - for the purposes of WiGE movement - their number of levels to the height of the underlying hex."  Given that, if a WiGE sideslips into a building hex which has a total combined (ground level + building level) greater than that of the hex the WiGE started in, it crashes.  It cannot spend additional thrust to try & climb.

Which brings to mind a further clarification of if a building in the side slip path is a level too tall but has insufficient CF to support the WiGE I would assume that it would still result in a collision rather than the WiGE collapsing the building by a level correct?

Correct.  CF of the building is irrelevant; if you side slip into a taller building, you crash.

And just thought of one more possible edge case scenario that the new ruling may effect that is not addressed in the side slipping rules on page 55 of Total Warfare.

If a WiGE sideslip does take it into a hex with a building that rises only one level above the underlying terrain but does not have sufficient CF does it immediatly collapse?

Side-slipping WiGEs can't gain altitude, so they crash.

Edge case - forward flight.  Imagine a straight row of L1, CF10 buildings on flat terrain.  A Pandion starts with one building just ahead of it.

It pays the extra MP to climb, then moves forward one.  The building then collapses, taking it back to above L1.  So it has to spend extra to enter the second hex, which also collapses, and so on ... the image amuses me. Of course, if it tries to enter the last hex without the extra MP required to climb, it crashes.  ore amusing. :)

[monbvol]

Rule section in question:
WiGE vehicles entering a hex greater than one level above their current hex likewise crash

From the previous clarification: "Buildings add - for the purposes of WiGE movement - their number of levels to the height of the underlying hex."  Given that, if a WiGE sideslips into a building hex which has a total combined (ground level + building level) greater than that of the hex the WiGE started in, it crashes.  It cannot spend additional thrust to try & climb.

Correct.  CF of the building is irrelevant; if you side slip into a taller building, you crash.

So then the answer to that question is yes.

I assume the mention of spending thrust is to cover LAMs in Airmech mode and their ability to expend MP to climb independent of terrain since regular WiGEs cannot do this unless there is an errata I missed somewhere?

Side-slipping WiGEs can't gain altitude, so they crash.

Edge case - forward flight.  Imagine a straight row of L1, CF10 buildings on flat terrain.  A Pandion starts with one building just ahead of it.

It pays the extra MP to climb, then moves forward one.  The building then collapses, taking it back to above L1.  So it has to spend extra to enter the second hex, which also collapses, and so on ... the image amuses me. Of course, if it tries to enter the last hex without the extra MP required to climb, it crashes.  ore amusing. :)

Well this seems to actually go against the rules on page 55 of Total Warfare and the ruling and thus confuses me.  Both for side slipping and WiGE movement.  If the terrain is only one level higher the WiGE does not crash in a side slip nor does it have to pay additional MP to go up one level of terrain.

As per this section of rules on page 67 of Total Warfare:

WiGE: Even during a sideslip, if a WiGE enters a hex that is
only 1 level higher than the level of the underlying hex the
WiGE exits from, the WiGE vehicle will automatically rise 1
elevation above the level of the new hex (see WiGE Movement,
p. 55). If the terrain is greater than 1 level difference, then a
collision occurs.

In your example there is no reason for the WiGE to crash as per the rules on Page 55 and 52 of Total Warfare.  Rubble is not a prohibited terrain type and a WiGE can always drop down from it's flight level, end movement, or even land.  Since it is a straight line there is no side slip chance even moving at flank.

So the question is still what happens when a building without sufficient CF but otherwise obeys the rules for side slipping without being tall enough to cause a crash at what point would it collapse or would it in this special case cause a crash anyway?

[edit to reword a couple things and add another relevant section of rules]

[worktroll]

Xotl's asked me to step in directly here.

The reason a WiGE can side-slip into a hex a level higher, and not a building, is an extrapolation of real-world events. At TW scale, there's an implicit assumption that elevation changes reasonably smoothly from hex to hex. A WiGE relies on (for convenience) the trapped "cushion of air" of the ground effect to remain a few meters above the surface. Thus the WiGE copes with the relatively smooth transition.

Buildings, on the other hand, are rarely smooth transitions.  If it helps, imagine a skateboarder dealing with a ramp, and with a loading dock.

(PS, for "thrust" read "MP" - no assumptions re LAMs applicable ;) )

W.

[monbvol]

The description of expending thrust/MPs for "climbing" is just throwing me for a bit of a loop since WiGEs don't spend extra MP to go from a level 1 hill to a level 2 hill.  They only spend extra MP to stay above underlying terrain unless there is something I'm missing.  Still a little confused if a building can actually be used in a similar manner if the net terrain levels, building levels, and CF of the building would allow it.

I do appreciate the effort and apologize if I'm being a little thick, just wanting to make sure I understand everything.

[monbvol]

Don't mind me, was being a bit daft again.

Re-read your post worktroll and think I have it worked out now.

So it would seem my answer is

1.  That buildings cannot be used to go up but you can go down onto like any other terrain with the possibility of the building collapsing due to insufficient CF.

2.  In side slip situations still cause a crash by disrupting the air cushion if the combination of terrain levels and building levels go as below:

[WiGE]
_____[building]

3.  Buildings do allow WiGEs to move over them at 1 MP if they have sufficient CF and the WiGE finds appropriate terrain to get on top of them or is a LAM in Airmech mode and uses it's special ability to climb at will.

Though this ruling would seem to have an impact on page 68 of Total Warfare: accidental falls from above resulting from a side slip.

So last edge case question that comes to mind:

In the case of a side slip in light of this new ruling would a WiGE still have to worry about accidental falls from above if somehow it managed to side slip over a building that is short enough?

Example:

WiGE side slips from hex A which is clear and 4 levels high into hex B that is clear, one level high, and contains a building one level tall.

Though that brings to mind a more general side slipping question due to a WiGE's special rules.

[worktroll]

I think you've got the idea we've been using as our base to work from.

1) Yup

2) It's probably in my mind more like ^[WIGE][Building] - a WiGE cruising above L1 terrain isn't as high as a 1-level building sitting on L1 terrain. That's why we make the WiGE crash on sideslips. A level is 7.5m from memory, and a WiGE is riding a few meters above the surface.

3) While it's not in the exact wording, a WiGE can enter a one-level building hex on terrain equivalent to the WiGE's current hex, by expending additionl 2MP, but only in forward motion. If there's a stretch of similar L1 buildings, etc, then as discussed before it only pays 1MP per hex as long as the level is maintained, or drops.

So sideslipping into buildings works like sideslipping into woods.

4) Sideslipping onto lower buildings is the same as sideslipping onto lower terrain - the WiGE can either drop safely to the lower hex, or pay 2 additional MP to maintain height. If it maintains height, then the CF of the building underneath is irrelevant.

Hope that we're getting there!

W.

[monbvol]

Yup almost there.

I think you've got the idea we've been using as our base to work from.

1) Yup

One item cleared up.

2) It's probably in my mind more like ^[WIGE][Building] - a WiGE cruising above L1 terrain isn't as high as a 1-level building sitting on L1 terrain. That's why we make the WiGE crash on sideslips. A level is 7.5m from memory, and a WiGE is riding a few meters above the surface.

This actually contradicts the rules on page 55 of Total Warfare that state a WiGE flies one level over the underlying terrain and I remember levels as 6m not 7.5m.  Still I can accept that the sharp vertical edges of a building disrupt the air cushion and cause a crash on the logic that sheer vertical cliffs that would do the same thing are sufficiently rare that it could make for a Tactical Operation special terrain rule at best.

3) While it's not in the exact wording, a WiGE can enter a one-level building hex on terrain equivalent to the WiGE's current hex, by expending additionl 2MP, but only in forward motion. If there's a stretch of similar L1 buildings, etc, then as discussed before it only pays 1MP per hex as long as the level is maintained, or drops.

So sideslipping into buildings works like sideslipping into woods.

Okay so WiGEs are getting a new ability then because page 55 clearly states normal WiGEs cannot go from a level 1 clear hex to a level 3 clear hex even by expending additional MP.  As far as I am aware only LAMs in Airmech mode actually have that ability.  The rest seems clear enough.

4) Sideslipping onto lower buildings is the same as sideslipping onto lower terrain - the WiGE can either drop safely to the lower hex, or pay 2 additional MP to maintain height. If it maintains height, then the CF of the building underneath is irrelevant.

Hope that we're getting there!

W.

And that should clear us up unless I've raised some points that need further addressing.

[worktroll]

Just on point 3, this would not allow a WiGE to expend additional MP to make a 2-level jump (eg. 15m). This is a special case rule, boosting the engines to get over the roof.

A WiGE trying to fly over a 2+ level building also crashes.

[monbvol]

Ah okay so you can use buildings to go up like other terrain but it costs extra MP to do so unlike other terrain.  So still new ability for normal WiGEs.