Author Topic: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050  (Read 4361 times)

cawest

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what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« on: 05 July 2016, 17:58:11 »
Okay before the clans came what if any PA(L) was used.  not just in combat but service support or just normal work.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #1 on: 05 July 2016, 18:17:54 »
Okay before the clans came what if any PA(L) was used.  not just in combat but service support or just normal work.

They were.

worktroll

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #2 on: 05 July 2016, 19:17:01 »
Yup, exoskeletons were used industrially, but not in combat. The conceptual leap into 'real' battle armour just hadn't happened.

3051 and the introduction of the Grey Death Scout Suit is the first real IS production of BA, with the IS and Grey Death standards following in 3052. All drew heavily on captured Toad suits for their construction.

At least, that's what I'm aware of.
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monbvol

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #3 on: 05 July 2016, 19:47:27 »
There is also the Star League's Nighthawk but it isn't really clear how extensively they were used in combat.

worktroll

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #4 on: 05 July 2016, 19:50:50 »
They kind of dropped out of use following the SL Civil War, apart from IIRC a handful in ComStar's control.

IIRC also, the Bounty Hunter didn't get his PA(L) suit until post-3050. Mainly because the idea didn't exist when the earlier BH fiction was written, I suspect ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

monbvol

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #5 on: 05 July 2016, 20:01:11 »
Yeah another one of those things we're supposed to pretend was always there but really wasn't because it was added later.

Daryk

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #6 on: 05 July 2016, 20:05:41 »
One problem pre-3050 exoskeletons have is environmental sealing.  Back when 3026 was first published, you could just throw some money at an exoskeleton and seal it for work in space.  When Tech Manual came around, they suddenly had to have armor to make that possible.  To my knowledge, this retcon has yet to be errata'd away.

worktroll

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #7 on: 05 July 2016, 20:17:47 »
One notices that the equipment section of TRO 3026 has never seen a revised version. Elimination by obscurity ...
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daryk

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #8 on: 05 July 2016, 20:20:50 »
Which is unfortunate... that section is what really drew me into the universe.

worktroll

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #9 on: 05 July 2016, 21:28:18 »
"Come for the equipment, stay for the mullets ..."

(Remember the 3026 illo copied inspired by the Aha! clip ... ;) )
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daryk

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #10 on: 06 July 2016, 05:31:32 »
And don't forget the exoskeleton pilot who "wasn't Sigourney Weaver, honest!"  ::)

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #11 on: 06 July 2016, 07:12:37 »
One notices that the equipment section of TRO 3026 has never seen a revised version. Elimination by obscurity ...

The individual elements, however, did see revised versions in the later RPGs, including the exoskeletons, which were last seen in Mechwarrior 3rd edition/Classic Battletech RPG, where they were essentially cumbersome personal forklifts rather than the relatively graceful machines that came later.

One problem pre-3050 exoskeletons have is environmental sealing.  Back when 3026 was first published, you could just throw some money at an exoskeleton and seal it for work in space.  When Tech Manual came around, they suddenly had to have armor to make that possible.  To my knowledge, this retcon has yet to be errata'd away.

Point of order, the Exoskeletons you build with tech manual and the exoskeletons in 3026 aren't the same thing.

The modern exoskeletons like we see in TRO VA are derived from battle armor technology. The 3026 exoskeletons were significantly more crude, more limited in capabilities, and significantly cheaper. They also weren't lostech.

There's no retcon, just a lingering question of why the old industrial exoskeletons didn't find their way into the new rules. Even though, if you have access to the book they were last in (Lostech Equipment Guide as I recall), you can get all the information you need to use them in a current A Time of War game.
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Daryk

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #12 on: 06 July 2016, 08:42:52 »
I agree they're not the same thing, I just think they were intended to be so (thus explaining why they never found their way into the new rules).  The simplest fix is to remove the requirement for armor when adding environmental sealing.

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #13 on: 06 July 2016, 12:43:32 »
Comstar put the Tornado into production in the 30th century.  It wasn't a front line suit, but was used in spec ops.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #14 on: 06 July 2016, 22:59:13 »
The Draconis Combine's yakuza were also arming industrial exoskeletons (presumably the heavy) prior to the Clan invasion, and their pilots were among the first MechWarriors in the newly-formed Ghost regiments.
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cawest

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #15 on: 07 July 2016, 00:21:40 »
maybe the PTB will address this in the 1SW books.  they would make a great addition to fan fics. 

glitterboy2098

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #16 on: 14 July 2016, 14:40:12 »
as i recall, the old exo's were similar to the HAl, HULC, and SARCOS stuff being worked on IRL. basically just motors on a frame you strapped to your limbs. using them for space would be as simple as fitting oversized straps and attachments so it could go over a space suit.

sillybrit

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #17 on: 15 July 2016, 16:54:14 »
Although not specifically mentioned, TRO3026-style exoskeletons must be in widespread usage, because it's the only way to explain troops carrying 70-100 kgs as their share of some crew-served support weapons (eg. heavy mortar, support pulse laser, heavy support laser, etc) on top of any extra ammo, plus their personal kit, body armor, supplies, etc.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #18 on: 15 July 2016, 21:00:52 »
Dug up my badly decayed and falling apart copy of the Lostech equipment guide (please Catalyst, PLEASE make it available in PDF at some point! I will give you moneys for it!).

Long story short, For the most part they essentially function as conventional infantry armor that provides a significant bonus to strength in exchange for a degree of automatic encumbrance. The light exoskeleton is automatically encumbering, while the industrial exoskeleton is automatically very encumbering. Those familiar with the armor stacking rules in A Time of War and the infantry armor rules in Tactical operations will note that this places some inherent limitations on their battlefield utility. The Light exoskeleton could be considered technically viable, but it provides basically no additional protection (you'd be limited to whatever armor you're wearing under it), and really, at total warfare scale, it's not going to change anything. Essentially, as Sillybrit said, you might as well assume that they are used by anybody who has to carry a load on the wrong side of ridiculous.

Under A Time of War rules, the high natural encumbrance of the Industrial Exoskeleton basically prohibits the use of any additional body armor. The Exoskeleton DOES have its own armor ratings, but they aren't high enough to warrant a Total War damage divisor higher than one, making the industrial exoskeleton inherently inferior to practically any other infantry armor option.

The heavy industrial exoskeleton is a special case, as it isn't used operated like the others in the RPG scale. It has a fixed maximum speed (3.6 kilometers per hour), and a fixed lifting capacity (2 tons). It has an inherent armor rating sufficient for a damage divisor of 2 on the total warfare scale. Also, it drains power very quickly. A high capacity backpack power pack will be completely drained in five hours of operation, which just adds to the logistical tail (the other exoskeletons have operating times that seem roughly comparable to battle armor). It's not "encumbered", instead being classified as a "vehicle", and those lifters are probably not suited to operating infantry weapons.

One could make the argument that the Heavy Industrial Exoskeleton might be jerry rigged for combat (in fact both I and the Canon have made that exact argument), but all the mentioned limitations means it's not something you should expect often.

Oh yeah, all of these can be environmentally sealed and rigged for zero g operations. Based on how they operate, however, that's not really any different from the marine environmental armor or combat spacesuit.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #19 on: 16 July 2016, 03:35:34 »
I do not recall seeing the RPG Exoskeletons out side of TRO 3026 and Lost tech, Though the LRM infantry in the TRO 3085 supplemental art is most definitely using a Exoskeleton. So it seems that Exoskeletons where absent from 2nd ed. But the basics are the same for 1st and 3rd, at lest in terms of fluff.

Though interesting the Industrial Exoskeleton and Heavy Exoskeleton both have a listed weight in their TRO 3026 entrys being 40 and 150kg respectively, something that is listed as not available in their MW3 guise, the Light has no listed weight (both it and the Industrial have a 2x and 3x strength enhancement respectively, the Hvy is a flat 2 tons).

The Heavy Industrial "can" be recreated to it's TRO 3026 weight of 150kg using current BA rules, the others can not be at lest at their original weights.

Interestingly the Infantry Practice Mesh from the ATOW companion is functionally the same as the Lost tech Combat Training Exoskeleton, though oddly this is listed as a comstar & clan used item, where as the Lost tech item was a Fed Suns item.

cawest

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #20 on: 16 July 2016, 21:33:40 »
it would be great to see some for RPG or maybe out in the deep black.  it would be the main battle tank for a planet that only has leg INF.  maybe they could be on a space station and used to take dropships that are re-po ed. 

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #21 on: 07 August 2016, 15:09:11 »
Methinks people would just use industrialmechs for that. Though admittedly I'm not sure how the cost compares.

idea weenie

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Re: what if any Powered Armor if any was in use pre 3050
« Reply #22 on: 07 August 2016, 19:06:30 »
it would be great to see some for RPG or maybe out in the deep black.  it would be the main battle tank for a planet that only has leg INF.  maybe they could be on a space station and used to take dropships that are re-po ed.

Liam's heavy industrial exoskeleton will be a fairly stationary unit (not stationary enough for opponents to get the -4 modifier, maybe -2?), as a speed of 3.6 kph max is about 1/3 of a MP.  So I'd see them used to load mortars with heavy rounds over and over, but if the enemy brings them in range (or just sight), the operators bug out of those exoskeletons ASAP.  With the power drain, I'd expect some sort of vehicle nearby (for lunch breaks and delivering the crew) to recharge the suits.

So massive damage, but little protection from incoming fire.  Maybe see these guys helping with a Long Tom crew to load 200 kg shells, or Arrow IV battery to lift the 200 kg missiles?  (With lots of soft rubber on the 'hands', so the shells aren't squeezed.)

Their main use I'd see is as Combat Engineers to move stuff.


cawest's idea for taking Dropships I'd see them as being put near the Dropship in case, but regular infantry do the main storming.  The exo troops' job would be in case they defenders locked the doors to the bridge and it needs to be opened.  Or just lifting the main magnetic containment equipment off so the engines cannot be started.