Author Topic: BattleMech Manual input  (Read 50098 times)

Adrian Gideon

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BattleMech Manual input
« on: 28 November 2016, 15:10:34 »
This is the thread for any input or suggestions for the BattleMech Manual. As Randall says below, "If you were leading this development, what rules would you want to see included from Tactical Operations, or Strategic Operations, or beyond? And what rules would you absolutely not want to see?"


Here's Randall's post in full:
Quote

I mentioned a few weeks back the coming of a new BattleTech rulebook in the BattleMech Manual.

Of the six rulebooks noted in that previous post, I was able to participate in half of them. Which means I’ve seen just about everything...every angle you can think of for how develop and present these rules. At least, that’s what was running in the back of my head when this all began.

However, one of my goals was to try things differently. Just because we’ve done it X and Y doesn’t mean we can’t do it better. Come at it from different angles. For example, unlike all six previous rulebooks, we took the text of this book and went to a select group of our demo agents and asked them to go over it with a fine-toothed comb. Not just to find potential issues, but to look at it in new ways. Different angles where we might present things in a new light for ease of not simply learning, but most importantly, for actually using it at the table.

Unequivocally I can say that that process has paid off in spades. Mary Kaempen (our lead BattleTech Demo Agent), along with the rest of the agents involved in this project, have significantly improved the quality of this rulebook. It really will be a different (and hopefully superior) experience to use this at the table.

Taking all of that into consideration, one of the bigger questions that was asked right up front and that we vacillated on all through the summer and fall development was what other parts to include. Yes, this is all about the BattleMech and needs to stay focused there. But even if you strip out everything else from Total Warfare, there’s a lot of rules that were previously included in the core rulebooks that for space and organization purposes where shunted off to books such as Tactical Operations and even Strategic Operations and beyond. Rules often used by the player base.

As I previously mentioned, my watch-word on this has been trying to create a book that “95 percent of the players will use 95 percent of the time.” So that means going beyond just Total Warfare into those other rulebooks and trying to bring in materials that fit within that watch-word above.

The discussions on that have been pretty intense at times as Keith Hann, Ray Arrastia (Xotl and Adrian Gideon on this forum, respectively) and I (along with input from Mary and her team) went round and round. [As an aside, Keith Hann is the BattleTech Errata Coordinator and due to some serendipitous simultaneous development on this project late last year, he’s stepped up in a monster way to help lead this development. And once again, he brought a very different perspective that should help set this book apart in usability. For example, while there’s some fun rules in those books that we might want to include, the complex and/or fiddly nature ultimately lead us to not include them.]

Ultimately, at every step, this has been about trying to embrace the community as much as possible. In reading and reviewing and remembering all the experiences over the last decade of what most player’s are using.

But now, we’d like to hear from you. If you were leading this development, what rules would you want to see included from Tactical Operations, or Strategic Operations, or beyond? And what rules would you absolutely not want to see?

Obviously there’s no way we can take every last feedback into consideration. But in that effort to hit the “95 percent of the players will use 95 percent of the time” we’d love your feedback.

Next time I’ll dive into more elements that were involved in the development, as well as starting to show off the layout.

Enjoy...and thanks in advance for your input!

Thanks for the feedback!
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jimdigris

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #1 on: 28 November 2016, 16:36:09 »
I'd like to see all the artillery and mine field rules in one place.  Also, the weapons charts should have damage, range, heat, tonnage, critical spots, cost, and ammo costs all in the same chart.

Hammer

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #2 on: 28 November 2016, 17:08:24 »
For rules that should be included.  They might need to be simplified but think they are important.

From TO:
Planetary Conditions TO pgs 28 - 68
Artillery TO 179- 186
Minefields TO 207- 210

From SO:
Quirks - 193 - 199  Logic behind this is if someone buys the BM and some of the later TROs they would see quirks and would be good to give them a reference to them.


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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #3 on: 28 November 2016, 17:27:56 »
Sufficient construction and repair rules to supplant the old Master Rules book. (A suggestion: on my own charts, I don't have a weapon type column; instead, I've used the "direct fire energy" etc. as the group headers for groups of rows.)

Better guidelines for linking scenarios or creating a simple campaign. Probably better guidelines for individual scenarios too, if you can swing that.

Not "forced withdrawal" or "clan honor rules," those should be replaced with more practical incentives built into the scenario or campaign guidelines. (I have a suggestion as to how, but I don't know if ideas not already found in published books are appropriate for this thread.)

The old physical attack rules - flat TN for all skill levels, punching is a little different - might be a worthwhile option. By no means necessary though.

If MechWarrior skill advancement is included, then Edge points should be also.

(A suggestion: I assume you're doing this already, but LOS should illustrated with a vertical section as well as the usual overhead view.)
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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #4 on: 28 November 2016, 17:42:25 »
This might be a good opportunity to shore up all the advanced equipment from the various Dark Age TRos and Era Reports and whatever else they may be spread out in.

I'm sure you're including floating crits since 95% of the people I talk to seem to include that in their game.

A lot of the optional rules presented seem to weaken the mech in my mind, and I'm wondering if there's a way for you to bring back the power that set mechs apart from everyone else.

I hope you haven't forgotten all the things Mechs interact with on the map, like buildings and terrain.

If you're up for reconsidering things, maybe have a look at the old clearing woods rules from the BMR days, maybe the old partial cover rules, and other things to reduce record-keeping, but still keep the terrain modification aspect of BT Mech Combat.

Definitely include the campaign rules system, or a simplified version of.
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Vampire_Seraphin

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #5 on: 28 November 2016, 18:00:23 »
For rules that should be included.  They might need to be simplified but think they are important.

From TO:
Planetary Conditions TO pgs 28 - 68
Artillery TO 179- 186
Minefields TO 207- 210

From SO:
Quirks - 193 - 199  Logic behind this is if someone buys the BM and some of the later TROs they would see quirks and would be good to give them a reference to them.

With a full list of quirks for Mechs, Aeros, Vees, and all other units from TRO 3039 please. These are the main units that form the core jumping off point for the franchise.
« Last Edit: 28 November 2016, 18:28:10 by Vampire_Seraphin »

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #6 on: 28 November 2016, 18:01:25 »
I fully recommend floating criticals.  I've only played without them 1 or 2 times.  They are an immense difference that feels really good with BattleTech.

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #7 on: 28 November 2016, 18:05:18 »
Want
TO: Planetary Conditions (but compacted)
SO: Quirks
IO: Primitive Mechs
(old) Floating criticals

Don't Want
Costs (please find a way to abstract them away for campaigns)
Construction (replace with abstracted campaign repair rules)
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fuzbuckle

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #8 on: 28 November 2016, 18:06:02 »
I second all of the mech weapons and equipment/construction rules under one roof.  The salvage & repair rules from SO.  Fire & Smoke.  Mechwarrior specific SPAs, and Mech specific design quirks.  Battlemech miniature conversion rules.
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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #9 on: 28 November 2016, 18:11:34 »
When I think about the 95% majority of all the tabletop games I've run or played in in the last 5 years or so, I think the only things outside TW that I really ever needed the majority of the time were these:

Artillery rules (TacOps)
Mines (TacOps)
Floating Crits rules (TacOps)
Sprinting rules (TacOpcs)
Stacking 20's and weight class modified PSR rules (TacOps)
LAM rules (can't remember where they are now - Strat Ops?)
Infantry Field Gun rules (Strat Ops?) - Obviously this is not Mech-related.
Alternate munition rules (TacOps)
Experimental/Newer Tech like Tri-pod rules, Hardened Armor, Quad-Vees, etc (various)



I really don't want to start a discussion on the following points, but I still feel the need to ask:

1) Please fix the Ultra-AC jamming forever rule.

RACs can unjam and MASC failure isn't as brutal as it once was. Isn't it time to fix the Ultra AC jamming rule?  :)

2) Please fix the ThunderLRM-Vibramine rules from TacOps. They're broken AF.
 
Firing a pair of LRM-20's with Thunder-Vibramines that are set as low as possible at a hex with an enemy occupying it, and then, losing initiative and charging your largest unit closer and setting them off BEFORE the enemy can even move is so wrong.  You can AUTOMATICALLY take a leg off of a light or medium mech that you likely would have had a hard time hitting thanks to its speed.

You basically get a -4 to hit the hex, don't have to worry about target move mods, and depending on who wins initiative, you either automatically wreck your enemy's legs OR you force the enemy in that hex to move immediately or else he risks taking auto-damage to the legs. If there's two enemies in that hex, or if you mined two different enemy-occupied hexes on the same turn, you're guaranteed to score auto-damage to at least 1 unit as your enemy won't be able to move one unit before you can charge your "mine-setter-offer" closer.

There's no way that, outside of having extreme pilots (which you pay for), extreme pulse laser/TC combos (again, which you pay for) or having an enemy pilot immobilized, you should be able to get free damage on your enemy... Especially free damage to his legs (which, usually are one of the hardest spots to hit).
« Last Edit: 28 November 2016, 18:28:22 by c_gee »
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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #10 on: 28 November 2016, 18:18:01 »
For the beyond bit there, if that means ideas for whole new systems, I'd like to see a new optional scoring system that encourages playing using faction motifs.

For the clans, their half would be an honor system, eg +30 points for each starting mech fewer than your opponent, +25 pts for killing an enemy with only one unit, killed an enemy with battlemech talons as a Jade Falcon +20, etc... The system should be weighted heavily toward honorable clan practices, but only lightly towards objectives. Eg, the flat kill score might be worth only 25% of a solo kill's points.

The Inner Sphere half could flip and focus on objectives, with heavy points for missions or faction themes, eg +30 points for killed objective building, +20 points for used a tank in a Davion army, all units have C3I as WOB +10,  etc... Clan style themes like solo kills would be worth only marginal points compared to areas of greater IS interest like raw kill totals.

The main idea being to create an optional system where its not just fun to play to your faction's style, its downright mechanically beneficial.

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #11 on: 28 November 2016, 19:00:46 »
I really, really recommending making a beta-version available to minimize errors in the final product.

EDIT Revising some stuff

Total Warfare and general stuff:
-Buildings (TW pg 167), urban combat is a fact of life.
-Scenario creating guidelines.
-Standard rules relevant for scenarios, such as carrying and lifting stuff, hidden units.
-Make sure to enable these to be used without a GM, assume smart, co-operative players.
-Basic linked scenarios, "Campaigns" along with XP points for MechWarriors.
-Clan Honor should be included but perhaps include a more clear, game-like form too?
-All equipment rules classed as Tournament Legal or Advanced in 3150 or later. There are also several experimental technologies that would be nice to have (such as RISC APDS, Interface Cockpit, Void Signature System, and other such used in some XTROs), on the other hand, prototype systems are irrelevant (eg Clan-tech prototypes, Age of War of prototypes).
-(Armed) Industrial 'Mechs should be included as an option, especially for those playing the early Dark Age sub-era.
-Keep art limited, minimalistic. No full page or half-page pictures that have no purpose beyond looking cool. Art style should be coherent. Art should never bump important information to another page or interrupt the flow of information.
-Rule addition: allow flamers to deal both damage and heat at once?


Tactical Operations:
-Planetary Conditions (TO pg 28-68).
   *Exclude extreme depths and bug storms as too odd and/or specialized.
   *Simplify fire and smoke.
   *At very least include some of the additional terrain types and time of day and weather modifiers.
-Advanced Determining Critical Hits, Expanded Critical Damage (TO pg 75-76 [and the relevant tables, of course]).
-Called Shots (TO pg 78).
-Extreme Range (TO pg 85).
-Expanded Reversing (Flipping) Arms (TO pg 87).
-Other Combat Weapons and Equipment (TO pg 99-104), everything in the section.
-Rerouting Heat Sink Coolant and Heat Sink Coolant Failure (TO pg 105).
-Artillery (TO 179-186), simplified?
-Minefields (TO 207-210), include ability to pre-place them?


Strategic Operations:
-Simplified customization (SO pg 188->) rules for players to use if they use experience gaining and keep existing pilots between scenarios. Maybe no rolling dice required but instruct players to establish what level of field refits is allowed.
-Design Quirks, include any added in TROs etc. Logically part of the construction rules. (SO pg 193-199)


Interstellar Operations and related:
-Direct Neural Interface. (IO pg 68)
-SLDF Advanced Neurohelmet. (IO pg 68-69)
-Clan Enhanced Imaging system. (IO pg 75)
-Possibly simplified Manei Domini for Jihad era games like in Jihad: Blake Secrets.


Absolutely no:
-Strategic Operations stuff except for customization which i've described above. This would be clutter in a book that is more or less a basic 'Mech rules book.
-Campaign stuff beyond simple linked scenarios arguably can be found in Strategic Operations and Campaign Operations. Clutter for 'Mech rules.
-No BattleForce, Alpha Strike. This isn't about quick-playing system or large scale stuff.
-No short stories beyond perhaps opening fiction. Unnecessary. Small fluff side-bars are acceptable and perhaps even recommended, they're what sold me on BT long ago after all.


Unsure if exclude or include:
-LAMs and QuadVees. Their nature as hybrids makes them questionable for a book about 'Mechs since they rely on vehicle and aerospace rules.  On the other hand, they are 'Mechs and their special rules are mostly expansions to 'Mech rules. And LAMs transforming into fighter-mode can be treated as leaving the gaming area and counting as destroyed/retreated units.
-Super Heavy 'Mechs are just too specialized and rare, as cool as they are. On the other hand, they're but slight expansions to normal 'Mech rules.


Might have other ideas later.
EDIT Added a couple of points.
EDIT Another couple of points, from Interstellar Operations.
EDIT Removed irrelevant stuff i have no real opinion about.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2016, 09:31:46 by Empyrus »

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #12 on: 28 November 2016, 19:36:30 »
Not so much rules, but TABLES.  Having a consolidated table of all the available equipment in one place (spread across two pages like in TacOps and IO, with a column for the main book reference) would be invaluable, even away from the gaming table.

Most of the rules I have issues with are aerospace related, but I do recommend including LAMs in the book.  And throw my vote in the kitty for quirks.

Kharim

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #13 on: 28 November 2016, 20:04:50 »
Rules from TacOps I think might be usefull:
-Floating criticals
-Advanced determining critical hits table.
-Active Probes aid targeting
-Eccm and ghost targets for ECM
-Weight class physical attack modifier
-TacOps Taking damage psr modifier (+1 for every 20)
-Taking damage weight class psr modifier
-Mines
-Artillery

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #14 on: 28 November 2016, 20:46:52 »
*snip*
-Active Probes aid targeting
*snip*
I totally missed that one... It should definitely go in the new book!

Also, throw my vote in the kitty for no fiction.  If the intent is a rulebook for tabletop use, fiction has no place in it.

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #15 on: 28 November 2016, 21:31:34 »
In favor of including mines on the condition that Thunder LRMs are also included. Otherwise, why have them in a mech-only book? One option is to only include rules for conventional mines and leave the rest as part of the TacOps upsell.

Other recommendations:

- ECCM rules (TacOps)

- Powering down Gauss rifles (TacOps)

- Careful Stand (TacOps)

- Rapid-Fire Mode rules for Machineguns (TacOps)

- Including common weapons and equipment for all eras would be nice (namely Dark Age, Jihad, Age of War).

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #16 on: 28 November 2016, 21:44:41 »
Wants
Tac Ops - Vehicle Effectiveness
We don't need a lot of rules for vehicles in a BattleMech book, but I'd like see it put into a regular rules. Keeps making a 15 million C-bill tank become enviable pillar box and fiery explosion.

Don't Wants
Less wordy explanations on how things work. The old Battletech Manual Revised rules kept it simple and to the point. Total Warfare book can handle the in-dept stuff.

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #17 on: 28 November 2016, 22:46:41 »
This is actually Tech Manual, but I think it's pretty important with the goal of making is a single (Basic) book for 'Mech combat, the Game Rules section for each piece of equipment should be added, in particular the bit about Heat Sinks working even if the 'Mech is shut down.

Beyond that, if a rule or piece of equipment is Advanced or Experimental I think it should be kept OUT of this book, or at the very least kept optional, so as to avoid fights over what rules people should be playing with

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #18 on: 28 November 2016, 22:50:33 »
'Mech Construction
Tables of all 'Mech-based Weapons and Equipment including era availability, cost, critical slots, weight, damage, ranges, etc
Maintenance, Salvage, Repair and Customization
Land-Air-Mechs
Alternate Munitions



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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #19 on: 28 November 2016, 22:52:24 »
I would love to see the rules we use for of our games in Chicago.
Floating Crits
Tac Ops Engine explosions
+1 to Piloting for every 20 pts of damage (Not modified by weight)
One arm prop fire
Careful stand
Backward elevation changes

This tends to add flavor to our games and everyone seem to enjoy it.

As an agent, I would not need the construction rules. We have a book for that one. :)
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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #20 on: 28 November 2016, 22:52:49 »
I think the biggest thing is to keep the Rules tight and approachable for the new blood that could potentially come into the game.

The Main Rule Book should be your gateway into this world.
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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #21 on: 28 November 2016, 22:53:28 »
If this book is intended to be used 95% of the time then I think we need to look at smaller scale.  Battlemechs, Vehicles, and Infantry (BA and Conventional).

In our group, we have never used aerospace or artillery and after two years have only recently expanded to vehicles and BA from Battlemechs. 

The first chapter(s) could cover Battlemechs ins and outs, next for vehicles, next for infantry (All of these should be base rules.  There is opportunity for a chapter afterwards that is divided up into more common advanced rules that could be implemented such as floating crits, TacOps vehicle rules, etc.).  After that I would go into planetary conditions.  Beyond that I would have a scenario building chapter, maybe introduction to campaign building and the Chaos Campaign rules with Support Points and Warchest Points.  Perhaps finish it off with pilot and lance type abilities scaled down to a chart that lists the abilities and their modifiers, none of the fluff or explanations like in Campaign Ops. 

We have 4-6 hour play times and even with these three types of units, we run to the very end, many times without a defined conclusion.  Throwing in aerospace, artillery, and other things wouldn't suite a 4-6 hour play time in my opinion. 
« Last Edit: 28 November 2016, 22:56:54 by jackpot4 »
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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #22 on: 28 November 2016, 23:05:17 »
Simple artillery and air strike rules that can be used as X number of air strikes or Y number of artillery strikes.

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #23 on: 29 November 2016, 00:07:46 »
We always play with floating crits, but I have a slight problem with them. 
If Mech A and Mech B have the same BV and Xl engines, but A is all energy weapons, and B is all Ballistic, then B is most likely subject to a floating crit instant death, where as A is not. 
This should be reflected in their respective BVs, but I have no idea how to make that work.

Also, a charge attack should do more damage to the charger.  It should be an attack of last resort type of thing, not a the best offensive tactic which it often is for several mechs.  See the Fireball etc...

Careful stand, One arm prop-fire, and backwards elevations changes are all good things to include. 

Because I am huge into the backstory of the game system, I love playing historical fights.  But this should NOT be emphasized in the basic rules.  The breadth and depth of the fiction is WAY to daunting for new player.  The separation of the mechs into Eras (succession wars, Clan Invasion) is fine, but those terms should also come with year emphasis to avoid a new player not understanding what they mean.
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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #24 on: 29 November 2016, 00:42:40 »
"If you were leading this development, what rules would you want to see included from Tactical Operations, or Strategic Operations, or beyond? And what rules would you absolutely not want to see?"

After a quick look at the ToC, these are the items that I feel are both common enough & relate directly to mechs to warrant being in the BMM.                     
                     
TacOps:                     
   Advanced Ground Movement:                   
      Standing Still, Sprinting, Evading, Backward Movement, Crawling               
      Terrain:  Smoke & Fire               
      Careful Movement               
      Extreme Temperatures & Heat Scale Modifiers               
   Advanced Combat:                  
      Floating Crits               
      ALL Eras Weapons/Equipment               
   General Rules:                  
      Ejection               
      Minefields               
      Rolling Maps               
      Concealing Info               
      Underwater Combat               


Surprisingly, There was NOTHING in Strat Ops that I felt needed to be in the BattleMECH Manual.
                     

What don't I want to see? 
Anything not listed above  ;).
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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #25 on: 29 November 2016, 09:53:09 »
Wants:
-Tournament-legal gear for 3150
-Off-board artillery
-Ejection
-Minefields
-Smoke, fire
-Rolling Maps
-Called shots
-Backing up downhill (TO, 22)
-Firing while down with one arm missing (TO, 85)
-Floating Crits
-Combat Drops (SO, 22)


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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #26 on: 29 November 2016, 14:02:16 »
From what I just have read, people want a Compedium Revised.
(+)

ActionButler

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #27 on: 29 November 2016, 15:15:12 »
From what I just have read, people want a Compedium Revised.

Pretty much.


For my two cents...

Yes
Construction
Ejection
Minefields
Tourney-legal weapons & equipment only
Artillery
Floating Crits
Combat Drops
Any backwards movement
Planetary conditions (high/low temp, etc)
Salvage/Repair

No
LAMs
Warchest/Campaign rules (beyond salvage & repair)
Any weapons/equipment not tourney legal
Excessive fluff/short stories/background

I would also like to see advanced terrain simplified, but that is a wishlist for another book. 
Experimental Technical Readout: The School
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56420.0

Xotl

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #28 on: 29 November 2016, 15:26:28 »
In case people haven't read Randall's earlier tumblr post, or otherwise followed some of the discussion on the book:

The BattleMech Manual is about mechs, period (hence the name).  It will not contain anything on infantry, battle armour, protos, vehicles, etc.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

NeonKnight

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Re: BattleMech Manual input
« Reply #29 on: 29 November 2016, 17:47:19 »
Hopefully no 'Construction rules'

That is the providence of the TECH MANUAL

Please make BMM mechs and nothing but mechs.

Rules on Buildings and how they pertain Mechs: YES
Rules on Buildings and how they pertain to infantry: NO
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

 

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