Growing your fleet

[Sjhernan3060]

So I have been focused on this idea of growing the 3060 Blood Spirit fleet. Recognizing they could not afford to trade or purchase more warships how would they go about trialing for some?

I know in the WoR many Naval Caches were opened up and or plundered. Could say the Spirits declare a trial of possession for a cache or part of a cache?

Especially in the early 60’s do we have an idea of what forces would have defended them?

Could you send an elite star and declare: “ We are declaring a trial of possession for ummmm the coolest ship you have!”

Seriously what do you think defended the caches ( Solahama? Green kids? Vets? ) and how much would it take to get what you wanted? 

I would think that early on if you sent in an ultra elite unit you could crush what ever was guarded it and take what you wanted

[Vition2]

So I have been focused on this idea of growing the 3060 Blood Spirit fleet. Recognizing they could not afford to trade or purchase more warships how would they go about trialing for some?

The clans are not know to hide information, so trialing for some is a perfectly fine attempt to get them, the downside is that most of the warships in a cache are in a state they would likely need dedicated shipyard slips to bring them to full strength - and that would likely require a trial itself, though trade is possible.  A formal trial (or one that would leave the least bad feelings on the other side) would probably include a challenge made directly to the Khans of the cache’s owning clan, and then bargaining for the size and forces on either side would be hashed out.  Just showing up and declaring a trial to the dedicated defenders is entirely possible, and given the psychology of the Blood Spirits at the time is probable, but is also much more likely to rub the opposing clan the wrong way and cause reprisals – which the Blood Spirits are unlikely to be able to deal with at this time.

I know in the WoR many Naval Caches were opened up and or plundered. Could say the Spirits declare a trial of possession for a cache or part of a cache?

Yep

Especially in the early 60’s do we have an idea of what forces would have defended them?

Nope, odds are that the dedicated defenders are Freebirth Solahma, and are unlikely to have more than a couple old SLDF dropships and maybe a star of old SLDF ASF.  More likely there will be a smallish space station, mostly with technical crew, but with a small number of Solahma, probably enough to fill out a mixed star, but some of the points will likely be the equivalent of unarmored infantry (also performing a dual role, maintenance and defense).  I'll emphasize that this is merely my own theory, use whatever works for your game.

Could you send an elite star and declare: “ We are declaring a trial of possession for ummmm the coolest ship you have!”

Seriously what do you think defended the caches ( Solahama? Green kids? Vets? ) and how much would it take to get what you wanted? 

I would think that early on if you sent in an ultra elite unit you could crush what ever was guarded it and take what you wanted

Whatever you decide to do, the size and the quality of forces are going to indicate to other clans the level of want/need the Blood Spirits are putting into acquiring these assets.  An elite star is probably not too much if a formal trial is declared - unless it is part of a Keshik – that much or more may smack of the overuse of force if they are only going up against the dedicated defenders.

My 2 cents at least.

[Sjhernan3060]

EXCELLENT info and thoughts Vition! Especially with regards to the potential for escalation.... So a small resource strapped Clan COULD get away with a raid or two but not a more than that...

[Stormlion1]

Going for a warship would have a clan use a warship to defend. Blood Spirits might be able to gain yard time from the Ravens for any ships they gain though.

[snewsom2997]

Going for a warship would have a clan use a warship to defend. Blood Spirits might be able to gain yard time from the Ravens for any ships they gain though.

I don;t know, I could see the Attacking and Defending Captain going one on one in ASF's or even simulators to decide. Warships are far too valuable to trial over like Mechs.

[Vition2]

What Snewsom2997 suggests is what I was thinking.  The clans will certainly use warships if another clan is attempting to attain control over an active warship.  But mothballed warships are another story, they are of little use to most clans in the short term, and most clans have trouble looking to the long term when they would be useful.  This, plus the idea that the clans don't think much of their warship forces, indicates to me that many clans will use smaller forces.  Now, there may very well be a warship nearby which could spoil an attack - this would become more and more likely if the attacks are targeting the dedicated defending forces.

[Dreyf]

Since the defender gets to choose the location of the trial, the defending clan could easily choose someplace on the inhabited world in the system.

[Stormlion1]

It would be a aerospace duel certainly rather than a mech fight.

[Colt Ward]

If they are in a cache, who defends them?  I do not remember reading anything about any defense of the two Kimagures that the Ravens pulled out to build into their Ark Royals.

Nice thing is with the Reavings and others leaving we do hear some of what is in the caches (like 3 more Kimagures . . . ).

[Sjhernan3060]

Something I would have liked to see is a more formal alliance between the spirits and Ravens. Spirit led force could have been the muscle with the Ravens supplying the know how to get the ships going

[Gaiiten]

Most of the naval caches should be empty after the WoR.

However, I believe some ships should still be cached so they might get activated again.

[Stormlion1]

I bet the caches were full of non-warships and even old dropships. General Kerensky's fleet was made up of more than just warships after all. I would hazard to guess maybe even a a Potemkin or two may still be out there. 

[Vition2]

If you are looking for what might actually be in a cache there was a small discussion here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1791.450

Odds are there are between 10 and 30 warships in the various caches, with the low end being what's mentioned in the Wars of Reaving and the high end being around 50ish (estimation).  Most of these are likely to be smaller or otherwise less useful or harder to modernize warships.  I very much doubt there are any Potemkins left in the caches, they are simply too useful to be left sitting when various clans needed massive amounts of materials to ship to and from the occupation zones - but that doesn't stop you from putting some in anyways.

[Sjhernan3060]

I started this thread for some story and campaign ideas for my Blood Spirits. Recognizing they in the 3060 time frame are resource poor but rich in rage and elite troops what types of fleet assets do you think they would want?

Previous poster has mentioned various older ships military and non.

BTW I am surprised the Spirits did not make something like this earlier:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arcadia_(DropShip_class)
Are there any pocket warship or similar that the Spirits could have would have had access to in 3060?

[Vition2]

BTW I am surprised the Spirits did not make something like this earlier:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arcadia_(DropShip_class)
Are there any pocket warship or similar that the Spirits could have would have had access to in 3060?

By canon, no, pocket warships didn't make their debut until the Jihad, and the clans were - generally - slower to adopt them than the Inner Sphere powers.  That said, there were some assault ships they may have had access to: any from the SLDF and the Noruff.  It also wouldn't be too far fetched to think that they could turn some of their less used transport dropships into assault dropships by tearing out the bay and adding weapon blisters in their place.  That would take a fair bit of effort, but is entirely possible.

[Sjhernan3060]

  It also wouldn't be too far fetched to think that they could turn some of their less used transport dropships into assault dropships by tearing out the bay and adding weapon blisters in their place.  That would take a fair bit of effort, but is entirely possible.

Right?

I recall in FM Crusader Clans the Star Commodore of the Spirits agitating for more resources - a scrappy Clan like the Spirits SHOULD have been raiding caches for old derelicts to revamp and transports to up armor and weaponize.

It was a shame to me that when the Adders came calling to York it was not a tougher nut to crack...   

[Sjhernan3060]

Besides the GB novel Test Vengance are their canon examples of Elementals boarding and capturing vessels?

So if you were the Spirits how would you grow your fleet?

[Kit deSummersville]

Are you talking about a cache belonging to a clan or the large cache of warships the Clans a whole possess? Many of those are in need of much repair, such as the ones the Jaguars exchanged after they Absorbed Clan Mongoose. In addition, the Clan would need to get permission from the Grand Council to obtain those ships.

In addition to the WarShip, you'll also need troops to crew it.

[Sjhernan3060]

I did not know there were caches held in trust for all clans. Could they spirits have netted some for exploration ?

[Stormlion1]

I did not know there were caches held in trust for all clans. Could they spirits have netted some for exploration ?

On the sly? Probably. But would doing so even have crossed there minds? That's the question. I have always figured the Spirits Jumpship fleet wasn't destroyed and there were surviving merchant caste ships still out there after the Star Adders annihilated the Spirits. When the dropships were trying to escape the worlds of the Colleen system and the Star Adders destroyed them there were trying to reach something after all. Die on a planet or die in the cold blackness of space. No, I think there were jumpships waiting for those dropships. I have a theory the Spirits had another hidden system like Colleen. Probably not as nice but another hidden colony the Clans never found out about.

[Sjhernan3060]

Again supposing the Spirits had not tossed away so much of their strength in the Absorption war their fleet would still have been ( the) or one of the smallest correct?

What if instead of joining in the meat grinder of the Wars of Possession they instead enacted the Collen/Haven colonization plans earlier?

In a similar vein if they had asked the Council for permission to open some of the caches do you have to provide sometihng in return?

How much of an explanation would be needed?

[Vition2]

Again supposing the Spirits had not tossed away so much of their strength in the Absorption war their fleet would still have been ( the) or one of the smallest correct?

Yes, they only had 6 warships prior to the Burrock Absorption, the typical clan fleet had between 10 and 15, with a rare few having more than that.  Their largest ship could have been a battleship, but more likely was no larger than a battlecruiser - we don't actually know what 2 warship classes they lost during that war.

What if instead of joining in the meat grinder of the Wars of Possession they instead enacted the Collen/Haven colonization plans earlier?

That would give them a possible strong future, but in the immediate it's going to be a drain of resources.  Unless all you are doing is creating some mines to take important metals to your already industrialized homeworld, it will take decades before you start to see a net "profit" from the new colony.

In a similar vein if they had asked the Council for permission to open some of the caches do you have to provide sometihng in return?

How much of an explanation would be needed?

The question asked probably would have led to a vote, many would probably abstain.  If they lost the vote, they could trial over it, if they won, a couple of spiteful clans might trial them over it.  Not interfering in the Burrock Absorption would have probably decreased the enmity the Adders had for them, so they might get away with a couple of ships without a trial - though much more than a destroyer and other clans are probably gonna try to say "no."

[Sjhernan3060]

With regards to crews I woukd think the spirits would have a large pool to draw from due to the very high wash out rate.

[Colt Ward]

Actually, Spirit losses in the Absorption War was sort of vague because if a cluster did not follow the Founder's plan- 3 Mech Trinaries, 1 Vehicle Trinary, 1 INF/BA Trinary- then it was disbanded.

No matter if they had colonized those worlds earlier, when the Wars of Reaving started and the Adders were wiping them out . . . they were on the Wolverine trail.

[Kit deSummersville]

With regards to crews I woukd think the spirits would have a large pool to draw from due to the very high wash out rate.

Jim Blood Spirit, you've washed out of Elemental training. Go pilot that WarShip, it can't be that hard.  #P

[Gaiiten]

Jim Blood Spirit, you've washed out of Elemental training. Go pilot that WarShip, it can't be that hard.  #P

If he has shown talent, why should he have not begun a training?

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BTW I would have liked to see some more Clan updates of old warship classes (Kimagure, Baron, Farragut, Du Shi Wang et cetera)

[Kit deSummersville]

If he has shown talent, why should he have not begun a training?

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BTW I would have liked to see some more Clan updates of old warship classes (Kimagure, Baron, Farragut, Du Shi Wang et cetera)

Because infrastructure doesn't just magically appear. They suddenly have to dramatically increase their training programs, schools, instructors, etc.

And we did update the Du Shi Wang.

[Gaiiten]

Because infrastructure doesn't just magically appear. They suddenly have to dramatically increase their training programs, schools, instructors, etc.

The Spirits did have naval forces. So they had to have some training facalities/academies.
And we know they had ever had a surplus of warriors, they did not have the material.

And we did update the Du Shi Wang.

Ah, I remember. THX  :)

[Kit deSummersville]

The Spirits did have naval forces. So they had to have some training facalities/academies.
And we know they had ever had a surplus of warriors, they did not have the material.

Warriors are nice but there aren't that many in a WarShip. They need a whole lot of technicians and need to somehow get them trained in a hurry.

[Gaiiten]

Interesting PoV.

So the Spirits did have a shortage of qualified lower castepeople (engineers, technicians, scientists)? Even more important than a shortage of raw materials because without those qualified people they could not build the facilities they would need for construct and maintain more advanced war gear?