Clan Cluster vs Light Combat Team

[AlphaMirage]

I was pondering a scenario in my current game of having match ups of typical front line Clan Clusters with the fighter binary being a Nova versus an upgraded FedSuns Light Combat Team.

Is an LCT enough to take on a clan cluster (ice hellions if it matters)?  Or would the spheroids need more firepower?

[Red Pins]

Sarna says its about four Companies of Mechs and a battalion of Heavy-Assault armor and a battalion of BA infantry - it should be ok.  Mind you, bad strategy and tactics mean you lose anyway.  The Fighters are a different matter, I'm Aerospace illiterate, sorry.

[Death by Lasers]

  I did some quick math in Megamek and found the BV for Cluster in miniature(1 unit representing 10) is about 23k and the BV for an LCT in miniature is also 23k BV.  Battlevalue is pretty decent at Clans vs. IS balance.  It very slightly overvalues the Clans but overvalues tanks by a larger margin.  However, everything should rebalance itself if you use random skill pilots assuming both sides are regular skill.  From this the fight between an LCT and a Cluster would be pretty close.

  The greatest weakness of the LCT will be in aerospace as I believe the average LCT has only one Wing (20) versus the Clusters Trinary (30) or Binary of fighters (20).  If the Clans use this edge cleverly they could do some significant damage with well placed mech killing dive bomb attacks or altitude bomb vehicle disabling cluster bomb runs.  On the ground the Clan mechs can use their mobility, skill, and range advantage to fire and fall back disabling the vehicles one at a time and killing any mechs that get too close. 

  The LCTs generous VTOL carried BA assets will be a problem, especially for the Clans slower machines but the Clans own elementals should be able to the tie them up a bit and the Clans lighter mechs will be far to mobile for the Battlearmor to keep in contact with once they leave their VTOLs.

  Overall I think the LCT could do it but it would be a very close fight unless the Cluster does something stupid like let itself get dragged into a slugging match instead of prancing at range like a deadly ballerina.

[Natasha Kerensky]

A typical Clan cluster is 45-50 mechs, 75 battle armor, and 30 fighters.  Maybe an additional 75 battle armor, 30 combat vehicles, and a bunch of solahma infantry if you're a Hell's Horses player.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman#Unit_Structure

Assuming Sarna correctly quoted Field Report AFFS, an LCT will field 36-40 mechs, 144-240 combat vehicles, up to 400-500 battle armor, and some artillery and VTOL transport/recon assets:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Inner_Sphere_Military_Structure#Light_Combat_Team

Assuming the LCT is escorted by aerospace assets that match the cluster's aerospace trinary, the LCT will just swamp a Clan cluster with combat vehicles and battle armor.  The Clan technological and G/P advantage cannot overcome those numbers.  If you want your scenario to be evenly matched, the AFFS side should only field a fraction of an LCT's combat vehicles and battle armor.

Here's the TO&E for a highly optimized Ice Hellion cluster with flurry auxiliaries that may help:

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=46989.msg1084228#msg1084228

FWIW...

[Death by Lasers]

  Oh wait, I only added half the tanks in my LCT in miniature ::).  It's closer to 35k BV versus the Clusters 23k BV.  Yeah, that's too many tanks for a single Cluster to handle.  You will need to halve the tanks to give the Cluster a fair fight.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I was pondering a scenario in my current game of having match ups of typical front line Clan Clusters with the fighter binary being a Nova versus an upgraded FedSuns Light Combat Team.

Is an LCT enough to take on a clan cluster (ice hellions if it matters)?  Or would the spheroids need more firepower?

The answer will depend upon the era. 

To extrapolate: The further along the timeline, the more erosion there is in quality of materiel between Clan and Successor State armies.  And it's not just the IS powers fielding ever more and more Clan-spec hardware... the Clan toumans are simultaneously relying more and more upon IS tech.  And for the trifecta: Clan Toumans are also relying more and more upon vehicles for military might, and Clan vehicle crews are "teh suck" with a baseline 5/6 skill no matter what tech they're driving.

IMO: As of the Dark Age, a LCT should be about an even match for a contemporary Clan Cluster.  Perhaps that's still true as early as the Jihad (depending more upon a disparity in quality/prestige of the respective units favoring the IS side, but still).  Prior to the Jihad?  A typical LCT is probably outmatched by a typical Cluster.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Even a cluster full of supernovas is going to be swamped by an LCT's  conventional assets.  Just way too many tanks and BA to handle.

[Kidd]

Interesting topic.

What game system would be best to try and simulate this out? I think something with company sized units?

[Scotty]

Even a cluster full of supernovas is going to be swamped by an LCT's  conventional assets.  Just way too many tanks and BA to handle.

This line of thinking always forgets that the Clan ER Large Laser and Clan Large Pulse Laser exist.  No conventional vehicle force, with an unbounded battlefield, will be able to effectively retaliate while ceding engagement range against faster opponents and firepower/accuracy against slower opponents.

It will take a long damn time, relatively speaking, but that's what happens when you have to units that meet on an otherwise featureless plain with no objectives to fight for.  The things that make fights 'even' are things that aren't actually included in most fights.  Otherwise minmaxing always wins on paper.

[Death by Lasers]

  Just thought of something: you could add a Flurry cluster as an auxiliary to your front-line cluster.  That should balance things out and make for an interesting fight.  A Flurry is made up almost exclusively of fast attack hover craft and VTOLs with only a handful of mechs.  You could potentially add up to 150 hovercraft/VTOLs to your Clan force, more than enough to make for an even fight.

  Scotty I am with you to a degree.  I've play-tested a Cluster vs an armored Brigade of three regiments (in miniature of course) on a reasonably cluttered map and won but the "Cluster" was in sorry shape by the end of it.  With that kind of disparity of numbers even the occasional hit starts to take its toll and maintaining the distance becomes difficult to do indefinitely with even minor amounts of terrain.

  When you throw in the Aerospace, Battlearmor, and Mechs on top of the up to 2 regiments of Armor in this case its going to be very difficult for the Cluster.  At least its the Hellions force of fast mechs should have better time keeping distance than most Clans.  Great, now I want to try it out ;D

[Arkansas Warrior]

This line of thinking always forgets that the Clan ER Large Laser and Clan Large Pulse Laser exist.  No conventional vehicle force, with an unbounded battlefield, will be able to effectively retaliate while ceding engagement range against faster opponents and firepower/accuracy against slower opponents.

It will take a long damn time, relatively speaking, but that's what happens when you have to units that meet on an otherwise featureless plain with no objectives to fight for.  The things that make fights 'even' are things that aren't actually included in most fights.  Otherwise minmaxing always wins on paper.

Vehicle forces always have to deal with those sorts of disadvantages, even against purely IS-tech forces.  When used properly in combination with mechs, ASF, an artillery battery, and a regiment of battle armor, they can overcome their innate disadvantages.  Also, who said we're engaging on a pool table?  No sensible IS commander is going to ride out and meet a cluster that can outmaneuver him on a flat grassland.

[Scotty]

Who said we're not? :P It was a question posed without context, and assuming context where none was given doesn't help either side.

When it comes right down to it, an LCT's 'Mech forces are outgunned and outmatched by a typical Clan Cluster.  Its vehicle forces can either keep up and be similarly undergunned or underarmored, or they can get there long after the 'Mechs are smoking ruins.  Without an objective to fight over, the Clans win hands down 9 times out of 10.  This is, empirically, the reason they won victory after victory in the opening stages of the Invasion.  They didn't start losing until the objectives changed radically, and they didn't lose with any real finality until they were forced to fight over cities and points of interest like their Spheroid counterparts.

"Ultimate Death Battle: LCT versus Cluster" favors the Cluster every day of every week.  The Spheroids don't need more firepower or more numbers, they need a compelling reason for the Clan side to give up the range advantage, or they get nowhere.

[Arkansas Warrior]

This isn't 3050.  The clan range and speed advantages aren't what they used to be.  One of the favored BA transport VTOLs in the LCT is the Cavalry Infiltrator, which as fast as a Dasher and just as capable of dropping a squad of battlearmor on your head.  LCT Cavalry squadrons are likely to include designs like the Fulcrum and Hawk Moth, which can run with most clan units, and the Hawk Moth even matches the range of the ERLL.  And no clan unit matches the range of the LCT's artillery.

If the LCT is playing defense, which is likely if we are working with a Clan Invasion type paradigm, then it's even worse for the clans, because they have to dig the IS force out if they're to pacify the world.  That range advantage doesn't matter much if you're hunting Demolishers, Typhoons, and Grenadiers in the urban jungle.  Or even in an actual jungle (though I wouldn't take Typhoons into the woods).  If the LCT aid on offense, I can see how a mobile defense gives the cluster a fighting chance, but I still think that vs an IS force that might be 3+ regiments strong, they're going to get boxed in eventually.

[Scotty]

You're right!  This isn't 3050.  It's also not the Jihad, or the Dark Ages.  It is, at this very moment, a timeline blank where we have no information about why there's fighting happening.  In the absence of any objective whatsoever beyond "Fight!" what's stopping the Clan force from leveling the city one block at a time until there is no city left?  You're still supplying context that wasn't included in the initial question.  We could make up a million different scenarios about how one side or the other could gain advantage, and all of them are utterly useless if they're not what the OP is looking to accomplish.

More information about the fight is needed.  If there isn't any more, and the Clan force doesn't actually have a concrete reason to enter a city, or really stay locked down on any single objective, then it plays out as a massive Clan victory.

[Natasha Kerensky]

When it comes right down to it, an LCT's 'Mech forces are outgunned and outmatched by a typical Clan Cluster.  Its vehicle forces can either keep up and be similarly undergunned or underarmored, or they can get there long after the 'Mechs are smoking ruins...

"Ultimate Death Battle: LCT versus Cluster" favors the Cluster every day of every week.  The Spheroids don't need more firepower or more numbers, they need a compelling reason for the Clan side to give up the range advantage, or they get nowhere.

I say this as a (usually) Clan player, but no, just no.  Even on featureless terrain with no objectives to defend.

The average Spheroid 4/6 mech still advances faster than the average Clan 5/8 mech can back up.  The cluster may be able to eke out a few turns of ER large laser, ATM ER, and 5-class or smaller AC fire at 23+ hexes while the LCT cannot effectively respond.  But under 23 hexes, the LCT's ER PPCs, Gauss cannons, and LRMs have the same range as the Clans' versions of those weapons.  The Clans cannot avoid return fire for even a minute, forget indefinitely.

(And actually, that's not even true because the LCT has a company of artillery that far outranges anything the cluster brings to the table barring a few Arrow IV units, assuming the cluster even has them.)

On top of that, half of the LCT's 144-240 vehicles are fast cavalry units.  So we're talking 72-120 hovertanks and such moving 8/12+ sweeping in from the flanks.  Even a cluster composed of nothing by super-fast Fire Moths can't back up fast enough to outrun that kind of flanking force.

Even worse for the cluster, the LCT has up to a regiment of VTOL-transportable BA.  Those BA battalions are just going to be flown right over and dropped into the rear of the cluster to cut off its retreat.  At that point, the cluster will have nowhere to run.

It's game over within a couple minutes for the cluster.  The LCT has so many hundreds of units, so many of which are highly mobile vehicles or have access to highly mobile transports, that the cluster will be surrounded and cut down in short order despite the modestly superior range and speed of its Clantech omnimechs compared to Spheroid battlemechs. 

To have a decent shot at victory, a frontline Star Colonel with half a brain will augment his cluster with two or three secondline clusters when facing a force with the numbers and speedy combat vehicles of an LCT.  Otherwise, it's practically a Trial of Annihilation.

Without an objective to fight over, the Clans win hands down 9 times out of 10.  This is, empirically, the reason they won victory after victory in the opening stages of the Invasion.

No, the Clans didn't face LCTs during Operation Revival.  (LCTs didn't exist back then.)  Heck, the Clans didn't even face that many RCTs.  If you read the Wolf and Falcon sourcebooks or the scenario packs from that time, most engagements were under a regiment in size, not terribly different from Clan trials.

It was only when trying to take national or regional capitals (Rasalhague, Tamar, Luthien) -- or the proxy battle for Terra on Tukayyid -- that the Clans engaged in multi-regiment warfare like what fighting an LCT would be like.  That kind of warfare was rare for the Clans in the Homeworlds, and not surprisingly, their record is much more mixed in those bigger engagements.

Hope this helps.

[Hellraiser]

This isn't 3050.  The clan range and speed advantages aren't what they used to be.  One of the favored BA transport VTOLs in the LCT is the Cavalry Infiltrator, which as fast as a Dasher and just as capable of dropping a squad of battlearmor on your head.  LCT Cavalry squadrons are likely to include designs like the Fulcrum and Hawk Moth, which can run with most clan units, and the Hawk Moth even matches the range of the ERLL.  And no clan unit matches the range of the LCT's artillery.

I'm with AW on this one.

While Scotty is right that clan mechs will usually outmaneuver IS Mechs/Tanks, the LCT also has a load of VTOLs for moving the BA.
Even 3025 Karnovs w/ IS-Standard suits will be able to get behind the clans & hinder any sort of mobile campaign of retreating away from the IS Mechs/Tanks to play the range game.


If we scale this down to smaller #'s its like a single Timberwolf-Prime facing off against a mixed/reinforced lance of Griffin-6S, Manticore-HPPC, Drillson-3025, Thumper-IFV, Karnov-BA, & 2 Squads of BA (ISS-RecRif + Puma)

Can the Timby crush any one of those? Yes.  Can it crush 2 of them?  Likely.  But can it face off against all 7 squads at once....... unlikely.   Its going to get slowed down dealing w/ 1 or 2 & get snared into facing them all.

Actually the Timby has an advantage being solo that a full Trinary/Cluster won't have, ability to get away at fastest speed.  The unit as a whole is limited by the slowest unit.  So the IS could catch only a portion of the cluster (say a binary) & then hammer it with excessive force because the rest ran away.
In this war of attrition the clan will likely loose.

[Hellraiser]

On top of that, half of the LCT's 400-500 vehicles are fast cavalry units.  So we're talking 200-250 hovertanks and such moving 8/12+ sweeping in from the flanks.  Even a cluster composed of nothing by super-fast Fire Moths can't back up fast enough to outrun that kind of flanking force.

Even worse for the cluster, the LCT has up to a regiment of VTOL-transportable BA.  Those BA battalions are just going to be flown right over and dropped into the rear of the cluster to cut off its retreat.  At that point, the cluster will have nowhere to run. 

I think your off in the #'s here.

The LCT has 4-ish Battalions  (17 Companies) of Vehicles roughly, on average.
So that is only 200-250 Vehicles, Total, not 400-500  (Some could be bigger)

Still more than enough to be a pain for a Cluster, but not unbeatable, just unlikely
After all, Single Clusters, did (rarely) face of against some RCTs & win.

I think the 400-500 is in BA & actually I think its more than that, a FS regiment is 1024 BA?


The Air-mobile BA is going to be the biggest hindrance to a cluster playing the range game IMO.

[Death by Lasers]

  Decided to do a very small scale game on Megamek against myself just to see how an LCT vs a Cluster might look like 3145.  I pitted a Gyrfaclon and an Ironhold Point vs an BJ2-O Blackjack, a Myrmidon (A-I), a Musketeer, a Condor (Laser), a Goblin II, a Hauberk Squad, and a Cavalier Squad.  I would have included some VTOLs but he battlearmor all had transports with the Musketeer and the Blackjack.  For simplicities sake I didn't include any Aerospace or Artillery namely because each unit represented 50 and I didn't want to up the scale for this test.  I played it out for about 30 minutes on three maps (battletech, open terrain 1, open terrain 2).

  It was dragging on so I quit but suffice to say after leaping from heavy woods to heavy woods the Gyrfalcon had immobilized all the tanks and killed the Myrmidon with its LBX-2s and LLs and had suffered moderate armor damage.  The Ironhold Point was dead but the Gyrfalcon was still in good shape.  The IS battlearmor were pristine but really struggling with all the 7 hex jumping.  Not the best test because Gyrfalcon is an unusually mobile design (random tables be damned!) and heavy woods + a 7 range jump is virtually an exploit but it nudged me a little to Scotty's way of thinking here.

[AlphaMirage]

Alright for some more info the era is 3068ish, the LCT is playing defense on their home turf.  They have two Battalions of Battle Armor, two of Mechanized Heavy Weapons, and one of Mechanized Combat Engineers as their infantry compliment.  The Mech Battalion has five companies with almost all upgraded to Level 2 tech.

Good discussions so far, knew this was the right place to get feedback.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

For a Civil War era context, I'd have to say the cluster is favored.

Still, depending on the circumstances involved in defense the LCT may force a go of it.  Especially if they can force the Clanners to fight on a prepared field of their own choosing.

[Natasha Kerensky]

I think your off in the #'s here.

The LCT has 4-ish Battalions  (17 Companies) of Vehicles roughly, on average.
So that is only 200-250 Vehicles, Total, not 400-500  (Some could be bigger)

I miscopied my BA figure from my first post as my vehicle figure in my second post.  I had 144-240 vehicles total originally in the first post and corrected the second post above.   

It looks like you're using square battalions.  I have no idea if that's what the AFFS used for combat vehicle organization in the LCT era, and so defer to your FedSuns-ish logo on that detail.

I think the 400-500 is in BA & actually I think its more than that, a FS regiment is 1024 BA?

Yeah, I had 400-500 BA in my first post and miscopied that as vehicles in my second post.  Again, defer to your FedSuns-ish logo on whether that's too small by a factor of 2x due to square battalions, command lances, regimental command company, etc.

FWIW...

[Scotty]

LCT playing defense on their home turf gets the nod from me.  Fortified positions, pre-plotted artillery, and concretely defined defensive objectives mean that even if the Cluster accomplishes its own objectives (the two need not be mutually exclusive) the LCT has a good shot.

Concretely defined objectives beyond "kill all the things" favor Spheroid troops.

[Iron Mongoose]

On the defense, things look good for the LCT.  The Hellions don't have much hope of winning power vs power. But, the Hellions will be vastly faster, tactically and strategically, so if they can hit targets of opportunity, string the tanks out, make the LCT disperse, then reconcentrate and wipe a company or two out...

If the presumptive Elsies play smart, they can't lose, but if the Hellions play smart, they also can't lose. Each needs the other to play their game to win.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Let's look at hard numbers for a minute.  To make things as fair as possible, I'll use the largest possible clan cluster, and the lowest numbers for the LCT.


At most, a Clan Cluster composed entirely of Supernovas would look something like this:
Command Nova, 5 Mechs, 25 Elementals
Alpha Supernova, 15 Mechs, 30 ASF  ::)
Beta Supernova, 15 Mechs, 75 Elementals
Gamma Supernova, 15 Mechs, 75 Elementals

Delta Supernova, 15 Mechs, 75 Elementals
Epsilon Supernova, 15 Mechs, 75 Elementals


Grand Total:
80 Mechs
30 ASF
325 Elementals


LCT:
BattleMech Battalion: 44 Mechs
Heavy Armor unit: 72 Heavy/Assault tanks
Cavalry unit: 72 Light/Medium tanks/VTOLs/etc
Battle Armor Regiment: 1024 BA
Artillery Battery
ASF Wing: 20 ASF


The Clans have a clear edge in the skies.  The AFFS has a clear edge in BA.  Can 80 Clan omnimechs take on 44 IS mechs, 144 tanks, and an artillery Battery?  Of course, it won't be that simple.  Most clusters will be smaller, most LCTs will be bigger.  And the AFFS isn't just going to line up their BA and say "Yeah, go take out those Toads while we handle the mechs."  Nor is the clan edge in the skies necessarily going to let them bomb with impunity, since that whole artillery battery can do double duty as AAA (not to mention any Partisans in the heavy armor unit, Riflemen or Jagermechs in the mech force, etc).


Maybe, if they're fighting on a sheet of glass, the only objective is "kill everything", we don't expect anyone to need sleep, and the AFFS force has a Social General in charge, the clan has a very narrow chance.  But in any reasonable scenario, I think they're going to get annihilated.

[mbear]

Let's look at hard numbers for a minute.  To make things as fair as possible, I'll use the largest possible clan cluster, and the lowest numbers for the LCT.


At most, a Clan Cluster composed entirely of Supernovas would look something like this:
Command Nova, 5 Mechs, 25 Elementals
Alpha Supernova, 15 Mechs, 30 ASF  ::)
Beta Supernova, 15 Mechs, 75 Elementals
Gamma Supernova, 15 Mechs, 75 Elementals

Delta Supernova, 15 Mechs, 75 Elementals
Epsilon Supernova, 15 Mechs, 75 Elementals


Grand Total:
80 Mechs
30 ASF
325 Elementals

Some of those numbers can be offset by replacing the aerospace fighters with Elementals so there would be 400 Elementals. (Granted it's not much, but still.)

Given that they're Ice Hellions, it's going to be tight because they're mostly light and medium forces probably going up against medium and heavy units (LCAF). The Hellions are going to have to maximize their advantages in speed.

The Hellions have a lot more 'Mechs.  Take advantage of the 'Mech gap. IMHO the Hellions should use their fast 'Mechs to scout out the location of the heavy armor units and destroy them quickly, maybe by dropping Elementals. Then move on to anti-Mech work.

[Death by Lasers]

  I decided to try another scenario in miniature using the random assignment table from FM:Updates.  A very small scenario but the big ones take a lot of time.

Davion                           Ice Hellion
PHX-6D Pheonix Hawk       Ryoken B
Muskateer                        Elementals (Laser)
Drillson (Streak)
Goblin Infantry Support
Maxim (3052)
Karnov (BA)
Cavalier (Laser)
Infiltrator II

  This fight was also conducted on three mapsheets (Btech, Open 1, Open 2).  The result was a victory for the IS at the loss of the Pheonix Hawk and the Muskateer and the immobilization of the Goblin and the Maxim.  The IS had only the Karnov, the Cavalier, the Infiltrator II, and the Drillldon left as mobile assets and were at 40% of their original BV.  At least in this scenario our Hellions were outmatched although they weren't entirely overwhelmed.  Admittedly if the Hellions weren't using random tables they could have picked a longer range focused load out for the Ryoken omni-mech.

  In larger scale games the balance is relatively the same.   A year ago on a 17x48 generated board in Megamek I pitted a star of Clan mechs with 3 cluster bomb laden aerospace fighters and 3 elementals against a battalion of armor with a lance of supporting artillery and a couple battalions of conventional infantry (mechanized, jump, foot+transport).  The result was a heap of dead conventionals on one side and some scraps of ferro-fibrous armor held together by a few hair-width strands of myomer on the other.  If fighting this way the armor alone would use up 2 Trinaries of mechs, 1 Trinary of Elementals, and the full Binary of fighters leaving nothing but a 20 Mechs and a Binary of elementals to face the LCTs airpower and reinforced battalion of mechs.  Not good odds for the Cluster.

  Now a "Standard" Clan Cluster as far as I can tell is a Command Star, 2 Mech Trinaries, a Supernova Trinary, an Elemental Trinary, and an Aerospace Binary.

Clan               Strong LCT       Weak LCT
50 Mechs          48 Mechs           44 Mechs
20 Aerospace    20 Aerospace     20 Aerospace
-                      216 Tanks         144 Tanks
-                      12 Artillery        12 Artillery
-                      36 VTOL            12 VTOL
30 BA Points     108 BA Squads   36 BA Squads

  I would imagine in a normal scenario the Clans could probably squeeze a bit more out of their aerospace edge by conducting a series of cluster bomb runs but their air edge is just an edge with only a binary versus the LCTs wing.  On the ground the balance shifts a little back in favor of the LCT as with randomized skills the difference between Regular Clan and Regular IS pilots flattens out a little reducing the Clan skill advantage.

  In my estimation, even on relatively favorable terrain, the Hellions are going to be outmatched by the strong LCT.  They could hurt it badly, take it below half strength, and the Hellions unique mobility would actually be a greater asset in a Clan vs. IS fight than it would be against other Clanners, but attrition would grind down the badly outnumbered Hellions in the end.  Against a strong Regular skill LCT a Veteran Hellion cluster might do it but even then it would a close run thing.

  However, few LCTs had their full paper strength BA complement so if we take a weak LCT with only 4 Battalions of armor the match is more favorable for the Cluster.  If its a fight between a weak LCT and a strong Cluster I would call it close to even but against a full strength LCT I'm not sure the Cluster can pull off a victory even in favorable conditions.  At the very least the Hellions will have a large edge in strategic mobility with their complement of wickedly fast lights and mediums as Iron Mongoose points out.
 

[Iron Mongoose]

If one is trying to balance things, it has been previously noted that the Hellions often attach Fury units without bothering to note them officially.  Since Clan armor and infantry units are so oversized, it can add up quickly; three trinaries of armor would be 90 tanks, and a just a trinary of PBIs would still give you 250 foot.  Now, granted, we're not talking the same level of qualities as the Horses, and crew quality is probably below the Elsies, but committed at a key moment, especially if its sprung as a surprise, its a hell of an advantage.

If you want/need balance, other factors are repair status and readiness, since a Hellion Cluster will have probably just fought through the Falcons, while a Lyran or FedSun LCT is just coming off the Civil War in 68.  The implication is that both units would be reasonably seasoned (this hurts the Hellions, since better gunners can compensate for the Hellion speed advantage a bit) but there's a wide range of things that can be true.  If the LCT is being rebuilt, it could have a few green companies, or companies with cast off low tech equipment, either would be a huge burden against fast moving long ranged Hellions.  Or the Hellions could be low on ammo and restricted to energy configurations for their omnis, or fielding a few salvaged Falcon mechs that either slow them down to add to their power, or just be short a few stars of warriors.

I think there's broad consensus that the LCT has the edge.  If they're veteran or elite, victory becomes difficult or impossible for the Hellions.  If the terrain restricts the Hellion's movement, either tactically or strategically, even regular troops will win nine times in ten.

By contrast, veteran or elite Hellions can use their advantage in range more effectively, especially if the terrain is open enough to permit both tactical and strategic movement, but with just enough cover for a mobile force to spring a surprise or two (perhaps a la the 200th).  A few novas making an end run to take out Elsie rear areas and artillery would be a huge boon, for example.  Alternately, a world to defend with more than one important target with a meaningful bit of separation would almost ensure a Hellion strategic victory, since the LCT isn't strong enough to devide it self into two forces that can each beat the whole cluster.

[Arkansas Warrior]

For reference, FedSuns BA organization is entirely square:
4 troopers to a squad (4 troopers)
4 squads to a platoon (16 troopers)
4 platoons to a company (64 troopers)
4 companies to a battalion (256 troopers)
4 battalions to a regiment (1024 troopers)




How many BA a given LCT has is one of those era-dependent factors.  When the concept came about in the late Jihad era, a battalion seems to have been the norm.  By the Blackout, regiments are standard.  In between?  Depends on the unit in question's prestige, current assignment, proximity to suppliers, recent combat experience, etc.

[Hellraiser]

It looks like you're using square battalions.  I have no idea if that's what the AFFS used for combat vehicle organization in the LCT era, and so defer to your FedSuns-ish logo on that detail.

Yeah, I had 400-500 BA in my first post and miscopied that as vehicles in my second post.  Again, defer to your FedSuns-ish logo on whether that's too small by a factor of 2x due to square battalions, command lances, regimental command company, etc.

Square for the tanks is an error, I meant 13 not 17, so actually only 150-180 vehicles.

The BA is squared for the FC Nations.  4-16-64-256-1024

[Hellraiser]

Now a "Standard" Clan Cluster as far as I can tell is a Command Star, 2 Mech Trinaries, a Supernova Trinary, an Elemental Trinary, and an Aerospace Binary.

Nope.

"Standard" is
3 Mech Trinaries.
1 Elemental Trinary
1 ASF Trinary

45 Mechs
75 Elementals
30 ASF

Supernovas, Command Stars,  Lighter ASF are all deviations from the Standard of 5 Trinaries in a 3-1-1 layout.

[Hellraiser]

The IS force needs to be separated to be taken out by the clans.
Its the only way they beat RCTs in the invasion.
The issue I see w/ that is, LCTs don't really separate.
They are already scaled back & trained to act as a rapid response hammer working together.

If you take "Normal/Standard" figures for IS v/s Clan formation size.

Mechs   40 v 45
Heavy Armor   72 v 0
Light Cavalry   72 v 0
Artillery  12 v 0
Battle Armor   512 v 75   (I went with 2 Bats here because I couldn't recall if the norm was Battalion/Regiment)
ASF   20 v 30


The clans have a tech & numbers edge in Mechs & Fighters, as they often do.
But the sheer volume of conventional units is always going to hammer things back into the IS favor.

You just can't make up for Hundreds of Combat Vehicles & Battlearmor with an extra Star of Mechs & Fighters.

[Death by Lasers]

Nope.

"Standard" is
3 Mech Trinaries.
1 Elemental Trinary
1 ASF Trinary

45 Mechs
75 Elementals
30 ASF

Supernovas, Command Stars,  Lighter ASF are all deviations from the Standard of 5 Trinaries in a 3-1-1 layout.

  Actually that is incorrect.  "A typical cluster (insofar as their is such a thing) among the Clans as whole consists of two pure Omni-Mech Trinaries, an Elemental Binary, an Omni-Fighter Binary and either a mixed Trinary or Supernova" pg.10 FM: Crusader Clans.  Now I did add a Command Star because they show up in the old Jade Falcon sourcebook and are seen frequently in the old scenario packs for other clans IIRC.  I know in organizational charts they sometimes omit command companies so I assume its the same way with the command Star. 

  The "3-1-1 cluster" you are describing is a Jade Falcon cluster.  They don't mention command stars in the FM:Crusader Clans but they show up in the old JF sourcebook.  I did add too many elementals though as it should be a Binary and not a Trinary for the pure Elmental unit.

[Colt Ward]

No, what he is describing is the 3-1-1 laid down by Nicki, which did not include ASF (ask the Vipers) . . . depending on the Clan & era depends on how closely they follow it and with what equipment.

I think the Hellions do not have the mass to carry through on such a objective as a defending LCT.  Horses would definitely do better because of their larger & more diverse cluster.  It would require a Clan commander with patience and tactical acumen to bite off chunks and use their equipment fully . . . high altitude bombing of the Arty positions, sniping at range with superior Clan ranged weapons against defensive positions to bait defenders, leading patrols of armor or mechs into ambushes involved BA, and like the Falcons have demonstrated dropping Elementals on top of the fixed positions once the defenders are weakened.

[Hellraiser]

No, That line from FM CC is not saying that is a "Regulation/Standard" cluster.

It actually shows you how things deviate from the "Standard" in a fairly common way or "typical" way these days.

Nicholas Kerensky, The Founder of the Clans, set down a Cluster as the Following.

3 Mech Trinaries.
1 Infantry Trinary
1 Vehicle Trinary.

With the invention of BA the Infantry Trinary was upgraded to BA.
Also over time the Vehicles were relegated to garrison duties & ASF from Fleet Assets were assigned to Clusters.
The only place you see an "Original" Cluster now is in the Blood Spirits who feel it is a crime to deviate from the words of the Founder.

But its still 3-1-1 & that is the clan wide "Standard/Regulation" size.

The issue is, nearly everyone deviates from the standard so that the standard isn't that common now.

IE, its "Typical" now to not follow the 3-1-1 pattern to the letter.

The Jade Falcons often follow it because they are one of the most traditional of clans.


Maybe the clan doesn't like Fighters & loves infantry (Bears) so you end up seeing only a Binary of ASF but in turn have the Elemental Trinary bulked up to 4 stars & split into a Binary & a Supernova.

Or maybe the clan favors independent command units (Wolves & Sharks to a lesser extent) so a Cluster Command Star is added.

Or maybe they just love conventional ground forces & use a Supernova of Tanks & PBI in every cluster (Horses)

But in the end.

The "Regulation" size as handed down by Nicky K. is 5 Trinaries in a 3-1-1 pattern.  (Warriors of Kerensky IIRC)

Its also noted that while 5 Trinaries is the "Standard/Norm" that clusters often vary from 3-6 Binaries/Trinaries/Supernovas in size.

[Hellraiser]

No, what he is describing is the 3-1-1 laid down by Nicki, which did not include ASF (ask the Vipers) . . . depending on the Clan & era depends on how closely they follow it and with what equipment.

Exactly.
Also, I think you mean Spirits.
Vipers attach Fighters, but only 5 to a Star (15/Trinary)

[Death by Lasers]

 3-1-1 was the norm in Kerensky's day and that did not include aerospace fighters which you included in your post.  If you were talking about the average cluster in Kerensky's day why did you say the typical cluster has 30 aerospace fighters?  This discussion is about the "average" cluster in 3068 which the quote I provided from FM:Crusader Clans describes in detail.  The Cluster you provided is atypical for its full Trinary of aerospace fighters in 3068.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, meant Spirits I was just thinking of odd ASF sizes when I typed that . . .

In 3068 everyone BUT the Spirits include ASF . . . most a binary or trinary and some clusters have more.  90% of non-Spirit clusters will have a binary or trinary of fighters, so 20-30 total except the Vipers which halve that number.

I would be willing to play it out in MM . . . but it would take a while and I play as Wolves or Horses so . . .

[ajcbm]

Thinking about it. I think the Ice Hellions will win. LCT's are designed for maneuver warfare with air mobile BA and heavy tanks. Unfortunately, Ice Hellions rely on hit and run tactics with long range weapons AND all their BA is hanging on their omnimechs.

No. The LCT will be whittled down and once they are gone the tanks are next.

[SCC]

Keep in mind that this is a Lyran unit, the old joke about putting assault 'Mechs in scout laces? Well the advanced tech doesn't quite make that possible, but it can come close.

[marauder648]

One thing re the Hellions you also have to take into account is their rules on Zell if they stick to them (Which knowing Clan Methed up Honey Badger they probably wont).  But if they do stick to Zell they are still going to be ganging up on you as they trained and operated as pack hunters  and will be doing that irritating and scary unclanlike thing of combining fire so they could whittle down hostiles quicker that way.

[ajcbm]

Keep in mind that this is a Lyran unit, the old joke about putting assault 'Mechs in scout laces? Well the advanced tech doesn't quite make that possible, but it can come close.

I already have. Again, it is a trade off. Any mech with the damage won't be as fast. Any mech fast enough won't have the damage. Also, the Lyrans NEED to concentrate fire so they are only as fast as the slowest mech. The Hellions just need a few solid hits to get a leg or a XL Engine.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Don't forget the Horses, they love their trinary supernovas and stacking a LOT of infantry with their stuff.  There's the quote from FM:CC.  "Roughly two-thirds of all BattleMech stars employed by this Clan are part of a Nova" says a lot when there's three 'Mech trinaries - either two stars of each trinary, or two whole trinaries out of the three, are mixed Novas, while a Supernova Trinary fills out a ton of vehicles and conventional infantry. 

Trinary A: 2 novas, 1 star, 15 'Mechs and 10 BA points
Trinary B: 2 novas, 1 star, 15 'Mechs and 10 BA points
Trinary C: 2 novas, 1 star, 15 'Mechs and 10 BA points
Trinary D: "the only pure trinary," 3 Aerospace stars, 30 fighters
Trinary E: 3 Vehicle/Infantry novas, 30 vehicles and 15 infantry points

That's 45 'mechs, ostensibly at least 30 of which are Omni, 30 fighters, 150 battle armor, 30 vehicles, and 325 conventional infantry.

[Hellraiser]

No. The LCT will be whittled down and once they are gone the tanks are next.

Your assuming you can separate the mechs from the tanks.
As you said, all the LCT has to do is move at the rate of slowest unit.
In this case it can be the Heavy Armor.
So when your trying to hit & run & snipe, with a Grouup of Hellions, its going to face return fire from 2-3x as many units.  All of them averaging more tonnage.

Unless your going to use only the very longest ranged guns (ERLL & AC2/5) then the LCT is going to have more things like LRMs, Gauss Rifles, & ERPPCs than the 45 Omnimechs do.
Given its Lyran v/s Hellion,  they will have a LOT more of them.
If you attempt to use only the 25+ hex range weapons then the IS can still respond with LGR & AC2 fire, and also has the artillery.
And this is all dependent on the Hellions needing to win initiative to play the run & shoot game.


Drop this all down by a factor of 5 to keep it playable...

Clan Ice Hellion
9 Omnimechs  (3L, 4M, 2H)
3 Elemental Points.
6 Omnifighters.  (2L, 2M, 2H)

Lyran LCT:
8 Mechs  (1 Light, 2 Medium, 4 Heavy, 1 Assault)
14 Heavy Armor  (2 Medium, 8 Heavy, 4 Assault)
2 Artillery  (Snipers)
15 Light Cavalry  (8 Hovers, 7 Vtols)
26 BA Squads
4 ASF  (2M/2H)


If the LCT forces keep the mechs & armor together, the Clan will have almost no chance of thinning that herd much & will likely loose an equal amount.

The Artillery & size of the Armor unit should cancel out the ASF advantage with Flak.

So it really all comes down to the 15 Light Cav & 26 BA Squads.
Its only going to take 1 good successful insertion at a key terrain point to force a confrontation & when that happens the LCT crushes the Cluster.

[Nebfer]

AFAIK most Clans seem to run their clusters with one or more Novas, so their closer to 100+ elementals than not.

Even so a Cluster is out numbered by a LCT, though their are cases where a cluster has beating RCTs in the invasion time frame.

Also note in the post 3080s The AFFS has at lest two RCT/LCTs with a pair of BA regiments, so in theory 2,024 troopers.
The 17th AH had most of it's Infantry as BA regiments when it was reorganized as a LCT, most of these units where farmed out to other units, leaving it with only 2 regiments of BA in 3085 (so at one point they had like 5 BA regiments!).
Also in 3085 the Davion Assault Guards have two regiments of BA (entry also mentions that their are only two units that have two regiments of BA).

In 3145 we have
1st Kestrel Grenadiers has two BA regiments
the Davion Assault Guards still have two regiments
It is unknown if the 17th Avalon Hussars still has two regiments, likely dose but it's badly under strength at this point anyway.

[Hellraiser]

Don't forget the Horses, they love their trinary supernovas and stacking a LOT of infantry with their stuff.  There's the quote from FM:CC.  "Roughly two-thirds of all BattleMech stars employed by this Clan are part of a Nova" says a lot when there's three 'Mech trinaries - either two stars of each trinary, or two whole trinaries out of the three, are mixed Novas, while a Supernova Trinary fills out a ton of vehicles and conventional infantry. 

Trinary A: 2 novas, 1 star, 15 'Mechs and 10 BA points
Trinary B: 2 novas, 1 star, 15 'Mechs and 10 BA points
Trinary C: 2 novas, 1 star, 15 'Mechs and 10 BA points
Trinary D: "the only pure trinary," 3 Aerospace stars, 30 fighters
Trinary E: 3 Vehicle/Infantry novas, 30 vehicles and 15 infantry points

That's 45 'mechs, ostensibly at least 30 of which are Omni, 30 fighters, 150 battle armor, 30 vehicles, and 325 375 conventional infantry.

Your infantry math was off, fixed that for you.
He already stated that its a Hellion unit I think.
The horse units are great for defense and the closest thing the clans have to an RCT/LCT style formation.
As an attacker if I had to face one I wouldn't feel bad about using parts of 2 clusters to deal w/ the extra ground forces.

[Hellraiser]

Hmmm, 

I think I'd like to see this scaled back by a factor of 5 & then run on a slightly larger than recommended battlefield.
I'd also drop the Aero & Artillery to keep things simple but alter the ground forces slighly to compensate.


Clan Ice Hellion - Small Supernova.
10 Omnimechs (3L, 5M, 2H) + 5 Elemental Points  (Altered from 9 + 3 + 6 ASF)


Lyran LCT - Mixed Reinforced Battalion
8 Mechs   (1L, 2M, 4H, 1A)
12 Heavy Armor  (Lowered from 14.5)   (1M, 8H, 3A)
16 Light Cavalry  (Boosted from 14.5)  (8 Hover, 8 Vtol)
24 BA Squads  (Lowered from 25.6)   (8 Assault, 16 Medium)
(Some Armor & BA were removed w/ all the Artillery/ASF to keep game simpler)


75 Combat Units at 4/Map = 18.75 Maps.  Rounded up to 20 (4x5) with extra column & row added for a 5Lx6W playing area (85x93 hexes roughly).

[SCC]

Don't forget the Horses, they love their trinary supernovas and stacking a LOT of infantry with their stuff.  There's the quote from FM:CC.  "Roughly two-thirds of all BattleMech stars employed by this Clan are part of a Nova" says a lot when there's three 'Mech trinaries - either two stars of each trinary, or two whole trinaries out of the three, are mixed Novas, while a Supernova Trinary fills out a ton of vehicles and conventional infantry.

You're confusing Novas and Supernovas there, although I can understand why.

[Colt Ward]

Giving the Hellions too many heavies . . . probably just 1, lol.

I mean with what your saying, its Linebacker, Linebacker, Stormcrow, Black Lanner, Ice Ferret, Ice Ferret, Viper, Hellion, Hellion, and Adder or Kit Fox.  Plus 3 Elemental points, maybe a Salamander point or 2 of their own BA.

Why I said I would do it as a Wolf . . .

Gargoyle D, Gargoyle Prime, Timberwolf Prime, Timberwolf E, Ice Ferret A, Ice Ferret B, Ice Ferret D, Adder B, Adder D, Phantom H . . . along with 5 Elemental points.  But typically the Wolves had more than just the 3-1-1 structure.

Either way to destroy the Clan force the IS will have to spread out to try to pin them against the 'edge' or in actual tactics a terrain feature.  Such a battleplan actually favors a Falcon force since most of them mount JJs which allow Falcons more movement over obstacles.

How is he confusing?  9 mech stars traditionally in the cluster mean that you either have 2 pure Supernovas or all 3 trinaries have 2 novas.  The vehicle trinary was always fluffed as being a supernova afaik.

[truetanker]

I'd run the following for the Ice Hellions:

Supernova Trinary
  2x UrbanMech IIC, 1x Icestorm, 1x Kingfisher B, Bowman
  3x Howler, 1x Kodiak, 1x Great Wyrm
  2x Hoplite-4Bb, 2x Wyvern C, 1x Warhammer IIC
    70x Elemental, 5x Resgate ( Yeah, I just went there! )
Note: Older tech to give the mixed feel and a SLDF-in-Exile star for the win. The BA is mostly used in defense with the Bowman and UrbanMechs, the Kingfisher is CO's ride with the Resgate Point on it.

OmniMech Trinary
  5x Black Lanner, 5x Stormcrow, 5x Mist Lynx

OmniMech Trinary

  3xMad Dog, 3x Executioner, 3x Black Lanner, 2x Mad Cat, 2x Hellbringer, 2x Summoner
 
Elemental Binary
  40x Elemental, 10x Resgate ( Why am I putting all these Resgates in here you ask? Rescue and Recovery plus their fireproof... and can carry a Mauser IIC in their hands as well!)

OmniFighter Binary

  3x Turk, 3x Scutha, 4x Batu

TT

( And I gave it an Artillery as well! )

[Colt Ward]

Most of that is too slow to be Hellions . . . and too heavy.

[Iron Mongoose]

Quite.  I'd probably have two trinaries in which no mech was slower than 7/11, with a heavy trinary that had a few Stormcrows and Shadow Cats, maybe a salvaged Linebacker or two (I have a soft spot for that mech).  If I'm trying to milk the system I'll take a command star, but the Hellions generally run small clusters, so chances are the command star is the first star of one of the light trinaries.  Then split my BA up so each trinary has a star.

I'd attack two targets with two of my trinaries, secondary targets but hopefully juicy enough that the LCT has to move to defend them, and keep the command trinary in reserve.  If the LCT commits it's whole force to one target or the other, then run like hell, and maybe try and end run them and hit their main base.  If they commit just a little to one or to each, then its a race to combine my forces and wipe that little bit out before the LCT can recombine and thwart me. 

That, I think, is the LCTs problem.  If there's but a single target to defend, they're invincible.  Roll out big slow heavy mechs and heavy armor, hide in fortified positions, deploy concealed battle armor, pre spot massive artillery barrages.  Hellions (or even Jaguars) would break like waves on a rock.  But you split that LCT in half, in thirds?  Can half an LCT, even deployed like a rock for waves to break on, hold off a full Clan cluster, even of light Hellions?  And if you make the LCT stay mobile, redeploy to meet you where you want to fight?

If I'm the LCT commander, maybe I've got a fast response force with a company or two of mechs, a few companies of hovers, a few of VTOLs, some mechanized BA, backed by some of the fighters.  If I think I've got a shot at an isolated Hellion contingent, I pounce, while my heavies stay and defend whatever key objective I've decided is most important, and write off everything more than a klick or two out (lest I lose the whole world and the LCT in the process).  The Hellions can make a fuss, but they need to either win or withdraw more than I do, I think (I hope, if I'm the Elsies). 

[Colt Ward]

I think if you are the Hellions you might be able to bait the LCT with the dropships.  Dropships will fill several roles during such a fight- typically they carry the repair infrastructure needed to keep Hellions in the fight (at least under Rood . . . ) and are their only way off planet.  So make a big show of dispatching everyone to go hit some target . . . and be ready to hit the slow Lyran LCT attack group in the middle of their movement to deal with the dropships.  You would not likely be facing all the LCT- most the heavy armor, cav and mechs along with BA to support.  Some covering force would have to hold their base . . . unless they wanted to go to a mobile cache supplied defensive strategy.

[Death by Lasers]

  Just to echo what is being said here the Hellions would make fearsome raiders.  If its a border world whose main value is its strategic location the LCT's best course of action is to concentrate its forces so as not to be divided in the face of the enemy.  If we have an experienced commander I can't see it being easy for the Hellions to fool him into dispersing his forces.

  If this is a raid on a critical industrial world the LCT is going have a nightmare of a time defending anything.  It's Cavalry regiment along with whatever fast lights and mediums it has in its mech regiment are going to have their work cut out for them.  If the LCT splits up to defend multiple locations its going to get gobbled up one piece at a time by the concentrated Hellion cluster.  With the Hellion's speed they will be able to decide when and where they fight. 

  If the LCT has to split up it will have to set up each defensive position to be capable of resisting or at least hurting the Hellion cluster.  I would recommend mines, lots of mines, fortified tank positions, obstacles, hidden infantry positions, and mines, did I remember to mention mines?

* Interesting note, as far as I can tell the Lyrans don't have any LCTs in the 3068 timeframe.  In Field Report dated 3079 the Lyrans do not have any LCTs to speak of but only adopt them in the early 3080s in FM:3085 as a stopgap measure while rebuilding their RCTs and stopped using them again by FM:3145.

[bobthecoward]

(my first post in 3.5 months, been working on other stuff)

There is something I feel is always missing from discussions of rct/lct/arc/all the ad hoc mixed forces....

The LCT is defending position x, but there isn't a border the enemy will cross. The cluster can attack from possibly any direction. They will choose the one that favors mechs over armor. If there is a path with heavy forests and 2 level hex changes, they would probably use it.

I always figured mechs fight mechs so often because mech commanders readily set up forest screens against armor.

[Colt Ward]

Woods only stop armor tactically, its abstract like just about anything else in this game.  I have taken wheeled and tracked vehicles through woods and I know the other vets here have done the same.  Woods can protect a force's flank because whatever is trying to pass through- even nonjumping mechs- get slowed way down which allows for redeployment against any threat coming out of them . . . unless its a hidden force placed in ambush.  Bodies of water are also good ways to protect a flank, except hovers can skip over them.

[bobthecoward]

Woods only stop armor tactically, its abstract like just about anything else in this game.  I have taken wheeled and tracked vehicles through woods and I know the other vets here have done the same.  Woods can protect a force's flank because whatever is trying to pass through- even nonjumping mechs- get slowed way down which allows for redeployment against any threat coming out of them . . . unless its a hidden force placed in ambush.  Bodies of water are also good ways to protect a flank, except hovers can skip over them.

I didn't mean to suggest it was strategically impassable. But how much faster can mechs get from a to b than armor over bad terrain?

[AlphaMirage]

  Just to echo what is being said here the Hellions would make fearsome raiders.  If its a border world whose main value is its strategic location the LCT's best course of action is to concentrate its forces so as not to be divided in the face of the enemy.  If we have an experienced commander I can't see it being easy for the Hellions to fool him into dispersing his forces.

  If this is a raid on a critical industrial world the LCT is going have a nightmare of a time defending anything.  It's Cavalry regiment along with whatever fast lights and mediums it has in its mech regiment are going to have their work cut out for them.  If the LCT splits up to defend multiple locations its going to get gobbled up one piece at a time by the concentrated Hellion cluster.  With the Hellion's speed they will be able to decide when and where they fight. 

  If the LCT has to split up it will have to set up each defensive position to be capable of resisting or at least hurting the Hellion cluster.  I would recommend mines, lots of mines, fortified tank positions, obstacles, hidden infantry positions, and mines, did I remember to mention mines?

* Interesting note, as far as I can tell the Lyrans don't have any LCTs in the 3068 timeframe.  In Field Report dated 3079 the Lyrans do not have any LCTs to speak of but only adopt them in the early 3080s in FM:3085 as a stopgap measure while rebuilding their RCTs and stopped using them again by FM:3145.

Yeah on this situation Katherine split RCTs for political and logistical reasons rather then some strategic one

[Charistoph]

One other side note would be unit experience versus the others.

If the LCT is made up of Clan War/Bulldog/Serpent Vets they could probably hand the Ice Hellions their heads.  The Ice Hellions had little experience fighting the Inner Sphere forces in 3068 when compared to even Diamond Shark.  Even in the Great Refusal, they faced off against Clan Nova Cat.  And as demonstrated there, those units who were experienced Clan Fighters could defeat the Homeworld Clans.

But if the LCT are relatively green or were posted away from any Clan Fights so as having no anti-Clan experience, the Ice Hellions could take them out.

[Hellraiser]

Woods only stop armor tactically, its abstract like just about anything else in this game.  I have taken wheeled and tracked vehicles through woods and I know the other vets here have done the same.  Woods can protect a force's flank because whatever is trying to pass through- even nonjumping mechs- get slowed way down which allows for redeployment against any threat coming out of them . . . unless its a hidden force placed in ambush.  Bodies of water are also good ways to protect a flank, except hovers can skip over them.

I was stationed in Germany 25 years ago, that country is a giant forest,  O0
Nothing like taking a tank 1/2 way up a mountain side to give you a really good view of things you can kill below  >:D

[Colt Ward]

Lol, best 'woods' story I have is getting the 1SG on the radio asking WTF the convoy is stopped during the night move (2300?  0300?  I do not remember) through woods that has a shallow creek.

Elk had stepped out onto the tank trail after the XO's hummer had driven past it.

"Run it over, we can eat around the track marks and get this convoy moving again!"

[theagent]

Nope.

"Standard" is
3 Mech Trinaries.
1 Elemental Trinary
1 ASF Trinary

45 Mechs
75 Elementals
30 ASF

Supernovas, Command Stars,  Lighter ASF are all deviations from the Standard of 5 Trinaries in a 3-1-1 layout.

Close, very close.

1st rule of Clan forces:  there are no standard Clusters.

2nd rule of Clan forces:  there are no...wait, wrong universe.

A 'standard' Cluster, & the sources use the term very little loosely, is

• 2 'Mech Trinaries
• 1 Elemental Binary
• 1 ASF Binary
• 1 mixed or Supernova Trinary

(Per Field Manual: Crusader Clans (p. 10) & Field Manual: Warden Clans (p.12)).

However, each Clan puts their own unique spin on them. Some add custom mm and Stars, some add an extra Binary/Trinary, the Horses replace the standard Superniva with an armor/conventional infantry Supernova, etc.

The real question is which Clan would actually end up facing an LCT in the first place.  Given the maps from 3085 & 3145, that pretty much leaves the Raven Alliance as your most likely candidates.  The Horses have to fight through either the Falcons or Bears, then fight through either the Combine or the RotS, before they even hit FedSun territory.  The Wolf Empire has it slightly better, in that their forces would "only" have to fight through the RotS...but given how much Clantech Republic forces have access to, they'd get mauled badly.  But the Ravens are right on the FedSun back door, & the AFFS happens to have a couple of LCTs stationed there:  the 2nd & 4th Periphery Guards.

Given their preference for Aerospace, the most likely Cluster composition would be the following:

• 2 'Mech Trinaries
• 1 Elemental Trinary
• 1 ASF Trinary
• 1 "Triad" (FM:Warden, p. 123): 1 'Mech Star, 1 Elemental Star, 1 ASF Star
• Total:  35 'Mechs, 40 ASF, 100 BA troops

For the 3085 era, their primary units in the area are the 5th Raven Auxiliaries, & the 6th & 7th Raven Regulars.  The AFFS has the Bremmond & Bryceland DMM LCTs, plus the 2nd Crucis Lancers RCT. However, everyone is pretty beat up (45-60% strength for the Ravens, 65% for the Lancers), although the LCTs are near full strength (90 & 85% respectively).

3145 era offers a better matchup; although the AFFS militias are lower in strength, the 2nd & 4th LCTs are right there on the border, & the former is a Category B unit.  The Ravens now have 2 Striker Clusters (12th & 97th) & 2 Battle Clusters (100th & 121st) in the area; however, they're using a lot less Omnis in these front-line Clusters, so I would consider using 2 Clusters.

I'll see if I can work up a theoretical TO&E for this over the next few days...

[Arkansas Warrior]

I believe the OP specified Ice Hellions vs LAAF.

[truetanker]

Also don't forget the 3rd Raven Auxiliaries... and those damnable Protos of theirs...

As of 3061 to 3067 the commanding officer was Star Colonel Joseph Chand. and By 3110 Gamma Galaxy had become the heaviest user of ProtoMechs in the Snow Raven touman, and was the first unit to receive deliveries of the new Hippogriff ProtoMech.

TT

[AlphaMirage]

As the OP I am interested to see which clan would have the best chances.  Raven Alliance is good to, I did like the Hell's Horses as the odds on favorites.  The Protos are also of interest considering I intended to use them anyhow

[truetanker]

Would you use a hypo, if I put a 3085 era Clan Stone Lion with complete TO&E here for comparison?

TT

[Death by Lasers]

As the OP I am interested to see which clan would have the best chances.  Raven Alliance is good to, I did like the Hell's Horses as the odds on favorites.  The Protos are also of interest considering I intended to use them anyhow

  A Frontline Clan Cloud Cobra Fang Cluster not fighting under Zellbrigen would eat an LCT alive: 1 Corvette, 15 Omni-Mechs, 120 Omn-Fighters.  First you would have to equip an Omni-Fighter with a full satellite suite of detectors (about 10 tons IIRC) to find any mechs from orbit.  Then load up your fighters with bombs, isolate a small portion of the enemy mech/tank force (say a company), fly in with a Trinary of fighters filled to gills with bombs and destroy it in one run at the loss of a couple fighters.  If the enemy balls up really tightly hit them from orbit with the Corvette.  Keep doing this and after seven or so bomb runs no LCT.  Attrition would cost maybe 45-60 fighters.

  You could base your cluster either in orbit or somewhere 10,000 or so km away.  If the enemy tries to hit your airbase with Dropship mobile mechs destroy the dropships.  If they foolishly try to walk their mechs to your airbase you will find them with your satellite imagers thousands of km away and can annihilate them with bombing runs as detailed above.

  Once you've made sure there is nothing left move in with your Trinary of mechs with full air-cover and your Corvette shadowing above waiting to intercept any survivors that try to take on your land forces.  Find some conventional infantry to hold the land you just conquered and weed out any hiding enemy infantry and you've got yourself a planet.

[theagent]

I believe the OP specified Ice Hellions vs LAAF.

Wouldn't be a bad 'what if...?' scenario. But as far as being likely to happen in-universe, it suffers from 2 main issues:

• The LAAF never used LCTs.  They were only used by the AFFS post-Jihad (~3079, based on Field Report: AFFS).
• Clan Ice Hellion doesn't exist after 3074, having been absorbed by Clan Goliath Scorpion.  The only other remnants were stuck in the Deep Periphery.

[theagent]

Also don't forget the 3rd Raven Auxiliaries... and those damnable Protos of theirs...

As of 3061 to 3067 the commanding officer was Star Colonel Joseph Chand. and By 3110 Gamma Galaxy had become the heaviest user of ProtoMechs in the Snow Raven touman, and was the first unit to receive deliveries of the new Hippogriff ProtoMech.

TT

Ah, wasn't aware of that unit.  Not sure if it would work in the 3085 era (they're deployed on the Combine border), but definitely a thought for 3145.  That would be, what, 175 Protos in place of the 35 'Mechs?  That would be an interesting battle, & possibly the best way for a Cluster to face an LCT...

[Archangel]

Wouldn't be a bad 'what if...?' scenario. But as far as being likely to happen in-universe, it suffers from 2 main issues:

• The LAAF never used LCTs.  They were only used by the AFFS post-Jihad (~3079, based on Field Report: AFFS).

Per FM3085 (p107-109), the LAAF/LCAF did use LCTs for a number of years while they were rebuilding afteer the Jihad (1st & 2nd Bolan Guards LCT, 1st & 2nd Buena Guards LCT, 14th & 24th & 32nd Lyran Guards LCT, 20th & 23rd Arcturan Guards LCT, 4th & 7th & 8th & 11th Donegal Guards LCT).

[Arkansas Warrior]

Wouldn't be a bad 'what if...?' scenario. But as far as being likely to happen in-universe, it suffers from 2 main issues:

• The LAAF never used LCTs.  They were only used by the AFFS post-Jihad (~3079, based on Field Report: AFFS).
• Clan Ice Hellion doesn't exist after 3074, having been absorbed by Clan Goliath Scorpion.  The only other remnants were stuck in the Deep Periphery.

::)  Yes, I know (though I believe the LAAF did use LCTs for n the interim, until they could rebuild to full RCTs).  I never said the OP's scenario was canon.  Happily, he's since clarified that he's interested in others as well.

[theagent]

Per FM3085 (p107-109), the LAAF/LCAF did use LCTs for a number of years while they were rebuilding afteer the Jihad (1st & 2nd Bolan Guards LCT, 1st & 2nd Buena Guards LCT, 14th & 24th & 32nd Lyran Guards LCT, 20th & 23rd Arcturan Guards LCT, 4th & 7th & 8th & 11th Donegal Guards LCT).

Ah, didn't catch that before.  So you could easily have LCAF LCTs facing off against Jade Falcon Clusters, or maybe even some Horse Clusters, but probably only through 3100 or so.

[Archangel]

Ah, didn't catch that before.  So you could easily have LCAF LCTs facing off against Jade Falcon Clusters, or maybe even some Horse Clusters, but probably only through 3100 or so.

Wolf Clusters as well and possibly even Ghost Bear Clusters.

[Iron Mongoose]

I suppose the counter question is, in what why would a Cluster from any other Clan behave differently than a Hellion Cluster?  The Horses have a very clear cut difference with their armor and infantry, but against an LCT (or LCT like formation by some other name, as the case might be) it ends up just pitting strength against strength, since the IS force will still be brining so many more tanks and infantry to the fight.  Falcons still favor mobility like the Hellions, but tend to be heavier on average, the Wolves similar but fewer jump jets than the Falcons.  The Bears tend to be big and slow, so again strength vs strength, the famous unstoppable force vs an immovable object.  The Ravens love their fighters and protos, so could be very divergent, depending on exactly which direction you go. 

I'm not convinced that another Clan cluster could outperform the Hellions, provided each had an equally intelligent commander, because I don't think that going force on force here is likely to produce victory.  Taking a Bear assault cluster with 50 Executioners and Kodiaks and anything else you like and throwing it into the teeth of two hundred Lyran mechs and tanks with greater BA support and artillery isn't a recipe for victory.  But taking that force and stringing them out and making them run and then falling on isolated elements and destroying them in detail is, and there the Hellions (and to a lesser extent the Falcons and Wolves) will tend to shine. 

With the Horses, the upside is that you get more units if you take a cluster with a high nova ratio.  Three mech/BA novas, a tank/infantry nova, and a fighter trinary is a very plausible Horse cluster, and gives you 45 mechs, 30 tanks, 45 BA points, 15 pbi points (25 mech each), and 30 fighters.  A really tank-y cluster might do two tank novas, for 30 mechs and 60 tanks, which matches the LCT's ratios more closely.  But, even with top of the line Horse tanks and tank crews, I don't know that the Horses can out fight the Lyrans three or four to one, unless the Lyran unit is a very green unit and/or equipped with lots of succession wars era tech. 

With Ravens (or Cobras or Clan Mongoose or something) you can bring in 90 or 120 fighters with a small ground force to secure an air strip.  Is that enough?  A hundred high end Clan fighters with bombs and their weapons could do massive damage to a dug in force.  They'd have to sweep a few dozen IS fighters aside, but that's easy for such a force, and neutralize any enemy artillery and anti air units (Partisans and Riflemen and so on) which could probably be accomplished with out too many losses.  The big problem I think would be that there aren't enough ground forces to deliver the killing blow.  Even if you did three trinaries of air and two ground super novas, you'd only have 30 mechs and 30 BA points to try and finish off what's left of several hundred tanks and BA and half a hundred mechs.  Even if your fighters could inflict 75% damage, it remains a tall order for two super novas.  And if the Lyrans can dig in under cover, then the fighters can't get at them and the two super novas are forced to go in, which would be a slaughter.

Honestly, if you can't string the LCT out and pick them apart, but rather you need to take them head on, you need either a huge super cluster (the Sharks come close, with some having four super novas and two fighter trinaries) or else two normal clusters.  A Bear assault cluster to draw the LCT out for a pitched battle, and a Raven Stoop cluster to shatter them with air attacks just in time for the Bears to hit them on the ground could probably prevail in a pitched battle (you could have as many as 80 mechs supported by 150 fighters, along with BA, which has enough power if you can get it delivered.) 

[Colt Ward]

I think its going to come down to what type of cluster you send up against.  LCT playing defense will not matter as much for equipment or skills . . . the Clan force will.  If the Wolf cluster has Dire Wolves and other slow stuff then they will not be able to do much . . .

But give me a cluster of drawn out of what I posted before . . . or even dropping the quality down due to its post Refusal state by mixing in armor and standard mechs.  A cluster with Gargoyles, Timberwolves, Lobos, Ares, SLDF hovertanks will do ok . . . but one of those mech trinaries is likely to have Tundra Wolves, Blood Reapers and Sun Cobras which is where the Wolves have given up their traditional cavalry feel.

Like I said, I would not mind playing this out on MM, but I think you go full bore- artillery & aero.

[Archangel]

Terrain would also play a key factor.  Hellion Clusters would likely underperform in any terrain that limits their ability to take full advantage of their speed and maneuverability.

[theagent]

Well, I'm still working up a potential list, but here's what I was thinking of for a potential AFFS LCT vs. Raven Alliance Cluster battle, c. 3085:

With the Davions' attention focused more towards the Draconis Combine, the Ravens think they might be able to make a push into the FedSun's Periphery March, particularly with the dearth of forces covering it.  With the Coreward Combat Theater (Woodbine Operational Area) only covered by 2 of the new LCTs, they decide to send Delta Galaxy in against the the Woodbine PMM LCT.  The Woodbine is at nearly full strength, but even so is just a little short of forces:

• The Reinforced BattleMech Battalion is short one of the command lances (~95% strength), giving it 44 BattleMechs total; the unit is rated Regular/Questionable
• The Armor Brigade is also slightly short (~95% strength):  in each Heavy/Assault Armor Battalion, 2 of the companies are at full strength but the 3rd (& heaviest) company is short 1 platoon (32 Combat Vehicles each, 64-96 total); same thing happens in the Cavalry Battalions (32 Combat Vehicles each, 64-96 total).  Overall, the Brigade is rated Regular/Questionable.
• Given the time period & their status as a PMM (rather than a "line" unit), the Woodbine PMM is officially outfitted with a Battalion of battle armor. They are currently at ~90% strength, though; due to some reshuffling, each Company is currently comprised of 2 full-strength Platoons (16 troopers each) & 2 "short" platoons (3 Squads/12 Troopers each), giving each company 56 Troopers (224 total for the Battalion).  Overall, the Battalion is rated Green/Regular.
• Field Manual: 3085 lists an "Aerospace Brigade" for the Woodbine PMM, & is rated as Green/Questionable.  Normally, given the disparity in experience/quality, & given that the Ravens are going to be bringing DropShips & a lot of ASF, I originally considered giving them a full Aero Regiment (60 ASF).  However, given that I'm seeing a lot of LB-X-equipped vehicles on their RAT, I'm debating whether to just leave it at a Wing (20 ASF).
• A couple of things I'm not clear on, though, from the LCT descriptions in Field Manual: 3085 or Field Report: AFFS.  First, they mention that any other Infantry forces are primarily for "security" functions (i.e. base security?).  I would assume they probably don't come into play here.  Second, they talk about "dedicated VTOL support" for transporting the battle armor troops.  Should I assume these are separate from the "Cavalry" forces (only because the AFFS seems to have some VTOLs available), & are these going to be primarily VTOL transports with little to no armament, or are we talking hybrid gunship/transport types

Now, I picked Delta Galaxy for the Ravens for a number of reasons.  First, all 3 of their Clusters (5th Raven Auxiliaries, 6th Raven Guards, & 7th Raven Guards) are stationed on or nearthe border with the AFFS (Kinkaid II, Ramora, & Tellman IV respectively), all within a couple of Jumps of the border.  Second, being part of the same Galaxy, they should be used to working together in the field.  Third, while those 3 units are the primary ground units along that border, the Alliance isn't exactly leaving itself open should they venture across; the Bryceland & Bremond DMM are going to be too worried about the Ryuken-san, 7th Ghost, & 12th New Samarkand to cross the Raven Alliance Border, & even if they did the Ravens still have the 3rd Alliance Wing, 5th Alliance Wing, & Ice Storm Naval Star in teh region (plus the 1st Alliance Air Wing & 3rd Raven Auxiliaries a few Jumps away) to hold anyone off.  Fourth, Delta Galaxy is pretty beat up, but between the 3 of them they come together to form a reinforced Cluster-sized formation:

• I'm using the proposed "Raven Alliance standard" as the base for each Cluster:  2 BattleMech Trinaries, 1 ASF Trinary, 1 Elemental Trinary, & a "Triad" (1 BattleMech Star, 1 ASF Star, 1 Elemental Star); 35 BattleMechs, 40 ASF, & 100 Elementals total
• 5th Raven Auxiliaries is listed at ~45% strength.  Their ASF & Elemental Trinaries are reduced to Binaries, & their BattleMech forces are limited to a single Trinary.  In total, they have 15 BattleMechs, 20 ASF, & 50 Elementals.  The unit is currently rated Veteran/Regular
• 6th Raven Regulars is slightly better off, but still only rated at ~55% strength.  Their ASF & Elemental forces are identical to the 5th Ravens (1 Binary each), but they were able to maintain 2 distinct BattleMech Binaries.  In total they have 20 BattleMechs, 20 ASF, & 50 Elementals.  The unit is currently rated Veteran/Fanatical.
• 7th Raven Regulars is the strongest Cluster at ~60% strength.  In addition to the forces that 6th Raven is able to boast (2 'Mech Binaries, 1 ASF Binary, 1 Elemental Binary), they field a "Mini-Triad" Command Star (1 BattleMech Point, 2 ASF Points, & 2 Elemental Points).  In total they have 21 BattleMechs, 24 ASF, & 60 Elementals.  The unit is currently rated Veteran/Regular
• Combined together, the Galaxy fields 56 BattleMechs, 64 ASF, & 160 Elementals, or about 60% more forces than a single full-strength Cluster.

I'm leaning towards mixing up the weight classes as well, with the Woodbine LCT being a "Heavy" unit, but with a Medium Company, Heavy Company, & Assault Company, & letting each Raven Alliance Cluster have a corresponding weight (leaning towards the 5th Ravens being the Assault Cluster, the 6th Ravens be a Heavy Cluster, & the 7th Ravens the Medium Cluster). 

[Iron Mongoose]

I guess there's two questions here. 

1) The initial question posits a cluster, not a galaxy.  Granted, its a pretty damn skimpy galaxy (though broadly on par with a lot of Hellion galaxies, since they tend to be pretty skimpy too) but its still, as you yourself point out, 60% more than a "standard" cluster (if there is such a thing; there are single clusters in some clans with more strength, and galaxies with less).  Is it really a match up that's a reflection of the Challenge? Would putting up a damaged RCT be a better fight?

2) Given how problematically skimpy the Raven Galaxy chosen is (not that its a bad choice from a deployment standpoint) it still seems an uphill battle in terms of pure numbers.  Now, granted, with green skill levels I would tend to bet on the Ravens, to be sure, even if they simply seek a confrontation with their ground units (not that the Ravens would ever do such a thing).  But, just in terms of numbers again, it looks like the Ravens will rely heavily on overwhelming air power to shatter their enemy.  Given their sixteen fighter stars, they can hardly lose unless the battle takes place in underground warrens, but its not the overwhelming sort of victory one expects when a Clan Galaxy attacks any target.  Does this tell us something about the Clan's weekness in supporting forces?  Or the IS's strength?  Or just that a galaxy in sorry strights was selected (not unreasonably) for this?

[theagent]

I guess there's two questions here. 

1) The initial question posits a cluster, not a galaxy.  Granted, its a pretty damn skimpy galaxy (though broadly on par with a lot of Hellion galaxies, since they tend to be pretty skimpy too) but its still, as you yourself point out, 60% more than a "standard" cluster (if there is such a thing; there are single clusters in some clans with more strength, and galaxies with less).  Is it really a match up that's a reflection of the Challenge? Would putting up a damaged RCT be a better fight?

Good question.  I originally was hoping for something more along the lines of LCT vs. Cluster, but I also like to look at "in-game realistic" scenarios...& since I didn't realize the LCAF used LCTs temporarily, I was looking at a Raven Alliance/AFFS confrontation as the most likely.  And, given the deployment of their forces in the map sections, I figured these would make a good potential scenario.

I considered using a "damaged" RCT, but the closest I could find on the Raven/AFFS border was the 2nd Crucis Lancers RCT, stationed on Tancredi IV.  While it would let me pick some of the front-line Raven units (or especially those Proto-heavy 3rd Ravens), I thought there might be an issue due to the 2nd Crucis's experience (Veteran/Fanatical for the 'Mech & Armor forces, Veteran/Regular for the Infantry, & Regular/Regular for the ASF pilots), as well as their relative "damage" (they're roughly short 1 'Mech Battalion/65% strength, short 1 ASF wing/55% strength, short at least 1 Infantry Regiment/70% strength (probably would treat it as 3 standard Infantry Regiment & 1 Battle Armor Battalion), & down to a reinforced Company of Artillery & a Reinforced Regiment of Armor/45% strength)...but they're also an 'A' rated RCT, which means their TO&E is going to favor units from TRO:3075 & TRO:3085.  Not normally a problem for Clan forces, but...

2) Given how problematically skimpy the Raven Galaxy chosen is (not that its a bad choice from a deployment standpoint) it still seems an uphill battle in terms of pure numbers.  Now, granted, with green skill levels I would tend to bet on the Ravens, to be sure, even if they simply seek a confrontation with their ground units (not that the Ravens would ever do such a thing).  But, just in terms of numbers again, it looks like the Ravens will rely heavily on overwhelming air power to shatter their enemy.  Given their sixteen fighter stars, they can hardly lose unless the battle takes place in underground warrens, but its not the overwhelming sort of victory one expects when a Clan Galaxy attacks any target.  Does this tell us something about the Clan's weekness in supporting forces?  Or the IS's strength?  Or just that a galaxy in sorry strights was selected (not unreasonably) for this?

Yes, they will most likely need that heavy airpower for support.  Although I'm wondering if I shouldn't make a substitution in the original "Mini-Trinary" Triad formation, & have the Ravens replace the extra Elemental Star with a ProtoMech Star, & adjusting the understrength Clusters so that they all have at least 1 Star's worth of ProtoMechs.  The main reason being that, despite being considered front-line units, the 3 Clusters I picked are somewhat lower in the number of Omnis they have (5th Ravens have the lowest, 64%; 6th Ravens have the highest, 72%)...& the RATs in TRO:3085 show the Ravens having held on to more of their OmniFighters than their OmniMechs (~ 1/3 of their Lights & Mediums, ~1/6 of their Heavies, & 1/2 their Assaults are Clan 2nd-line designs, or in some cases "Star League" designs like the MON-66b & BMB-12D).  At least by making sure each Cluster still has 25 ProtoMechs (for a total of 75), they help counteract the LCT's cavalry forces.

Also, if it makes you feel any better, the Woodbine PMM LCT is a 'D' rated unit, so while they're technically heavily upgraded with Star League tech, they don't have as much of the newer tech as other units.  I almost considered using the Kilbourne PMM LCT; although they're a 'C' rated unit, their original description from Field Manual: Federated Suns says they suffer a -1 Initiative penalty whenever they have more than 2 Companies involved in combat; I'd have to check on how that integrates into the Abstract Combat System, but if there's no analogue I'd consider giving them a penalty to their Tactics score (which, combined with their mixed Green/Regular experience is going to put them at a disadvantage).

[Kidd]

Not even a maxed-out "super Cluster" seems viable enough; say 3 Supernova Trinaries, a Vehicle Supernova Trinary and a Fighter Trinary would still work out as follows:-

Alpha Supernova Trinary	15 Mechs	75 Elementals
Beta Supernova Trinary	15 Mechs	75 Elementals
Gamma Supernova Trinary	15 Mechs	75 Elementals
Delta Vehicle Supernova Trinary	30 Tanks/IFVs	75 Elementals
Epsilon Aero Trinary	30 ASFs
Totals	45 Mechs, 30 Tanks/IFVs, 30 ASFs	300 Elementals

vs an LCT's 36-40 Mechs, 144 tanks, 768 BA + VTOLs/APCs, artillery, and say 12-20 ASFs. Doable perhaps under the right circumstances, but still not good. It's the horde of like 100 tanks that would do them in.... unless we add say a couple of "off the books" Solahma Trinaries

45 Mechs, 30 Tanks/IFVs, 30 ASFs, 300 Elementals + 2 Solahma Supernovas: 60 Tanks/IFVs and 750 Infantry
vs
40 Mechs, 144 Tanks, 768 BA + VTOLs/APCs, 12 artillery, 12-20 ASFs.

Reasonable?

[Precentor Scorpio]

I'm thinking a campaign.  Each side had an airfield that must be defended and if you bring artillery, some vehicle and infantry must provide security, etc.
So I think two clusters, the second cluster could be four or five stars  and only to provide security for the air field etc. 
The LCT mechs would be bait or a rapid response unit. 
Also, my battles are usually one of two  companies or their equivalent and last around eight turns
This would be a fair fight.
If you determined to fight one cluster vs one LCT,  if you allow the clans to use mines, Arrow IV pods etc, the clans might win in a mass engagement.  (Arrow IV on aerospace fighters?? Clans have a 50/50 chance if the cluster has 18 stars)  Also thinking of equipment up to the jihad.