Author Topic: Buying additional experience points in character creation, ambiguity on pg. 88.  (Read 5826 times)

BiggRigg42

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Page 88, in A Time of War, describes how to buy additional XPs by taking on negative trait points. The max amount of additional XPs allowed to be bought is described with this sentence: "The maximum number of XPs that can be gained using this method is equal to 10 percent of the XPs originally allotted to the characters design, ..."

My RPG group finds the above quote ambiguous; because, we can think of two meanings for it, which will be illustrated with two examples applied to the same case: net example and total example.

Case: we are creating a character with a starting allotment of 5,000 XPs, and 10% of 5,000 is 500.

Total example: a player can only take up to -5 trait points (from negative traits) to obtain 500 additional XPs awarded to the XP pool, and the amount of positive trait points the player takes is irrelevant to this.

Net example: a player may take more than -5 trait points (in negative traits) to obtain a net of 500 additional XPs, provided they are off set by more positive trait points. So, if a player were to buy 5 trait points worth of positive traits (subtracting 500 XP from the XP pool) and -5 trait points of negative traits (adding 500XP to the XP pool [for a net of zero XPs gained]), then said character would be allowed to purchase an additional -5 trait points to gain another 500 XPs to the XP pool. In sum, the player has acquired 5 trait points and -10 trait points; this nets to 500 XPs awarded to the XP pool. 

My RPG group cannot come to an agreement on whether the total or net reading is correct. Thus, we cannot get our game started, please help.

Maelwys

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I've always read it as the first. You've got 5000 XP, you can buy negative traits up to give you an additional 500 XP to spend on things (traits, skills, attributes)

The "Net" example doesn't really make sense. You take -500 in negative traits, which grants you 500 XP to your pool..and then because you spend those points on traits, they're considered canceled out? Why aren't they canceled out if you spend them on attributes or skills? XP is XP afterall.

And under the Net example, what's to stop the person from taking -500 in negative traits, then taking 500 in positive traits, and then taking -500 in negative traits, and then taking 500 in positive traits, and then taking another -500 in negative traits, and then taking another 500 in positive traits and then finally taking more negative traits to add to your positive pool?

Daryk

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It's the first interpretation you list, but if you want an official answer, you need to ask in the rules forum...

BiggRigg42

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Just discovered some information in favor of the net example interpretation.

Page 49 says that all starting characters get 5,000 XP, and we know what it means for 10% of 5,000 to be 500; page 93 says, "The sample characters shown in the next few pages reflect examples of the kind of character a player can create using the character creation rules presented here."; accordingly, no sample character should have more than -5 trait points under the total example interpretation; so, if any of the sample characters have more (in absolute value) than -5 Trait Points (with an appropriate number of positive trait points off setting those negative trait points), then the proper reading is the net example interpretation.

The sample character on page 94 has -6 Trait Points, yielding 600 additional XPs to the XP pool; however, this character has 10 Trait Points for a net of 400 XPs gained to the XP pool. The sample characters on pages 97, 98, and 99 also only makes sense under the net example.

Therefore, the net example reading must be the proper interpretation.

bluedragon7

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You can easily have more than -500XP in negative traits, if you get them from the different stages of character creation. That does not mean you can gain more than 500 additional XP through negative traits.

If you were to use the point buy method then the total maximum of negative traits would be -500 XP.

BiggRigg42

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You can easily have more than -500XP in negative traits, if you get them from the different stages of character creation. That does not mean you can gain more than 500 additional XP through negative traits.

If you were to use the point buy method then the total maximum of negative traits would be -500 XP.

I did not know that. So, there are characters that can only be created with the life module system that could not be replicated via point by? Got any textual evidence?

bluedragon7

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The fi rst fi ve characters—the MechWarrior, Tanker, Aerospace Pilot, Elemental and Scout—were created using Life Modules, while the latter three—the Faceman, Renegade Warrior and Battlefi eld Technician—were designed using the points-only system

The Faceman actually needs an errata.

Daryk

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Also, the answer Paul gave you in the rules forum is definitive.  As bluedragon7 says, negative traits from modules don't count toward the 10% limit.

BiggRigg42

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The fi rst fi ve characters—the MechWarrior, Tanker, Aerospace Pilot, Elemental and Scout—were created using Life Modules, while the latter three—the Faceman, Renegade Warrior and Battlefi eld Technician—were designed using the points-only system

The Faceman actually needs an errata.

That is some good evidence. However, I am still a little skeptical that a points only character will get to buy more XPs with negative traits than a life module character because of the following two quotes from the text:

"The maximum number of XPs  ... is equal to 10% of the XPs originally allotted to the character's design, regardless of whether the player is using the points-only or life modules method." pg. 88
&
"Under the points only system ... Purchasing negative traits to add XPs to the character's XP pool is permitted ... The same 10% of the character's starting XP pool applies to gaining XPs in this fashion." pg. 89




BiggRigg42

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Also, the answer Paul gave you in the rules forum is definitive.  As bluedragon7 says, negative traits from modules don't count toward the 10% limit.

I type this with all possible respect and appreciativeness to Paul: Paul only quoted the sentence that I find to be ambiguous and did not actually narrow down the ambiguity for me. In his defense, my writing possibly could have been better.

Honestly, I am leaning toward the side that purchasing more positive traits should not let you purchase more negative traits.

bluedragon7

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I am still a little skeptical that a points only character will get to buy more XPs with negative traits than a life module character because of the following two quotes from the text
I don't understand your argument there
They both get only to buy negative traits for 10%.
Just the life module character might have accumulated other negative traits during his modules previously, that do not count to the 10% limit and a point buy can't do that as they don't use modules.
So if anything a point buy character tends to have less negative traits

BiggRigg42

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I don't understand your argument there
They both get only to buy negative traits for 10%.
Just the life module character might have accumulated other negative traits during his modules previously, that do not count to the 10% limit and a point buy can't do that as they don't use modules.
So if anything a point buy character tends to have less negative traits

I must be misunderstanding something about creating a character with the life modules. I thought a starting character got 5,000 XPs to purchase various life modules and then spent the remaining XPs on whatever. Whereas, a point-by starting character gets 5,000 XPs to spend on whatever. In this way, buying negative traits within the life modules would count toward the 10% limit, because the life modules cost XP from the original 5,000 XP pool. Thus, both point-by and life module characters should only be able to obtain the same number of negative traits and obtain the same amount of additional XP.

bluedragon7

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I type this with all possible respect and appreciativeness to Paul: Paul only quoted the sentence that I find to be ambiguous and did not actually narrow down the ambiguity for me. In his defense, my writing possibly could have been better.

Honestly, I am leaning toward the side that purchasing more positive traits should not let you purchase more negative traits.
Page 88 talks only about buying negative traits, right? There is nothing about buying negative and positive traits for a net sum of 10%:
Additional XPs can only be bought by taking negative Traits.
So if the maximum you can gain in that process is 10% than that is clearly talking about a total, not a net sum.
The Example on the following page actually underscores this:
With a 5,000-XP starting pool, Lisa knows she can only pick up a total of 500 XPs through negative Traits in this manner (10 percent of 5,000 = 500)

bluedragon7

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I must be misunderstanding something about creating a character with the life modules. I thought a starting character got 5,000 XPs to purchase various life modules and then spent the remaining XPs on whatever. Whereas, a point-by starting character gets 5,000 XPs to spend on whatever. In this way, buying negative traits within the life modules would count toward the 10% limit, because the life modules cost XP from the original 5,000 XP pool. Thus, both point-by and life module characters should only be able to obtain the same number of negative traits and obtain the same amount of additional XP.
The 10% is an optional step after the optimisation step in the life module character creation, so it comes after you have determined which negative traits you already have from the modules. Those are not purchased freely but given to you as a part of package deal.
It works actually fine to balance life module and point buy characters. Life modules leave less choice and you might have to take a skill or trait you do not really need, but those cost are buffered by the negative traits you also have to take the same time.

BiggRigg42

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Those [life modules] are not purchased freely but given to you as a part of package deal.

How can this be true when the fixed and flexible XPs of each life module are equal to the module cost? I don't see a package deal as "given to you" when the buying all the individual parts of the package costs the same as being given the package deal. Further, negative traits in the life modules do give back XP into the XP field; it's the only way to make the math for the module cost work.

The only real difference between life module and point-by, that I see, is that life module characters can pick more than 3 skill fields and have pre-reqs for various life modules. 

guardiandashi

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I look at it this way.

when I use the modules system, each module is a "package" that costs X points, when you open the package it may contain things with both positive and negative values, but the package as a whole adds up to the price spent.

when using the modules, this way the negative traits, do not count for the 10% point "bonus" limit because they aren't things you "chose" as a player explicitly to get more points.

you know what I am going to use a restaurant menu equivalent:
modules are like buying "combo meals" from a restaurant that does "NO Substitutions" so if you want the texas whopper but hate jalapenos they will NOT leave them off. if you don't want to eat the jalapenos you will have to pick them off the burger or order something else.

point buy is ordering ala Cart, instead of getting a whopper, fries and a soda (combo 4 or whatever) you instead order the burger, the onion rings, and the milk shake, because that is what you actually wanted.

because of this in the point buy every specific item is picked and chosen, which is why a point buy char can ONLY have 500 points of negative traits (if using a 5000 point char) whereas a module char could potentially have significantly more because they could (will) get negative traits from their modules, and still get to PICK up to 500 xp worth of additional negative traits.

BiggRigg42

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Ok guys, I understand what you are saying. It looks balanced, and I like it. Thanks for explaining it to me, because I was not getting it from the read as written.

Paul

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The solution is just ignore Paul.

monbvol

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On one hand I thought it was fine the way it originally was and point buy's advantage was the more favorable field rebates combined with you never spent XP on things you didn't want in the first place versus Module's more flavorful skill and trait selection and more generous XP optimization quirks.

On the other the change doesn't really bother me too much because the GM already has to exert some agency in what is and is not appropriate and I do find there is an upper limit to what you can put on a character for negative traits if a GM is doing their job that can make life a little to rough on a character.

Daryk

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And here I always thought the purpose of that rule was to encourage the use of the Life Module method.  I may keep it for my table on that basis, honestly.  I like how the modules were done for AToW overall.  Simple they're not, but they help me flesh out the back story of characters as I make them (Takrio's Sohei thread is an excellent example).

EDIT: And monbvol beat me to the punch!  He captures a lot of my thinking as well...

monbvol

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Disturbed minds think alike and all that. :D

bluedragon7

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I liked the restriction to 10% for point buy :'(

Paul

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I liked the restriction to 10% for point buy :'(

Then keep it! =)

Paul
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bluedragon7

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I would have preferred had you told those not even asking for a change "if you want to use more than 10%, feel free to do so" instead of making an unnecessary erratum. ;)

Paul

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I would have preferred had you told those not even asking for a change "if you want to use more than 10%, feel free to do so" instead of making an unnecessary erratum. ;)

Nah, any limit makes no sense from an aesthetic perspective on point buy. The new reality is superior.
But I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

Paul
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Stallion12

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In my limited experience, module characters are alot stronger, I wonder if this will migrate that.

Paul

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In my limited experience, module characters are alot stronger

Rebates.
(Which we really should've done the math for you guys, a mistake we'd correct when able)


Quote
I wonder if this will migrate that.

Migrate? No, it shouldn't move to another country. ;)

It shouldn't mitigate it much neither: in theory those negative Traits you can pile on a Point-Buy character need to have an effect sooner or later. Unlike rebates, they're not totally free.

Paul
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Stallion12

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Sorry, my phone autocorrected.


bluedragon7

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As each module costs the sum of its contents, where does it rebate?
Except Fields, as point buy would get that too

Stallion12

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You can get more fields with module, potentially anyway.

monbvol

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Not quite.

Either method you are restricted to a maximum of ten fields.  Module build characters also have the limitation that they may only go to one of each of the three major types of school with OCS as the exception for the Military options.

It is with those fields for Inner Sphere characters that you get the lesser rebate for Module and there are Clan Sibko stage 2 modules that include field rebates.

Where those are fixed for Module characters Point Buy rebates for the full amount you invest in those skills.

Stallion12

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Isn't point buy only 3 fields?

monbvol

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So it is.

Well okay they allow OCS to be a possible fourth.  But still.

That actually makes me feel a little bit better about this change.