Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator

[glitterboy2098]

sarna has them.

Call of Duty is kinda ugly but at least got the legs right


While Operation Audacity has the return of the amazingly awful inverted chicken legs..

[Kidd]

Okay...I might be going out on a limb here (ba-dum-tish)...but what if the way it walks is that when it steps forward, the moving leg retracts up into the upper leg bit, the upper leg pivots up, then the lower extends out to meet the ground? (I don't really mean "retract", more like it looks like the lower leg can move up and down within the upper leg.)

That would seem to work with the original Knutson artwork, but Plogg's looks more like the upper leg has a double-jointed knee. And then the novel cover...yeah, I have no idea there.

Thought so too, and the Call of Duty cover strongly suggests thats the case - the tip of the right (retracting) leg is longer than the left.

I can sorta buy it, the "knee" actuator would be a couple of giant gears running on "tracks" rather than a hinge joint, rotating 1 way to retract the leg and the other way to extend. Mechanically speaking its actually simpler... in our world, where BT-efficiency myomer hasn't been invented AFAIK.

[Liam's Ghost]

Amusing anectdote, the Penetrator was one of my inspirations for writing "...And I feel fine".

Only someone touched by an elder god would think that leg design was a good idea.

[Death by Lasers]

  The retracting leg idea is interesting.  I'm having trouble imagining how it would look though, maybe there is an animation out there somewhere of a similar design? 

Update:

  The closest thing I could find was this 6 legged retracting leg robot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBy2W23qlAM

[SteelRaven]

Most of the mechs in TRO: 3050 have very awkward legs, just look at the Falconer and Bandersnatch.

I can only guess Dana Knutson really liked the 3025 Stalker but I still like the overall look of the Penetrator in the original art. For whatever reason, always had the Ed-209 strut in my head even though the mini and the art that followed doesn't support that idea. 

[Wrangler]

I love the old Novel's art work. 

[Death by Lasers]

  Yes.   That's it.  ED-209!  Ok, the Penetrator may be redeemed. 

  So, a true kneeless robot.  Doesn't have the balance for a true walk but illustrates the locomotive cycle and design of the Penetrator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AkKsxXqwrk

  An illustration of ED-209 walking.  It does have the appearance of knee joint but its locomotion is identical to our theoretical Penetrator: a retracting leg strut and a hip joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM_ZaTsym6E

[Wrangler]

I think it would walk like this guy.

[YingJanshi]

  Yes.   That's it.  ED-209!  Ok, the Penetrator may be redeemed. 

  So, a true kneeless robot.  Doesn't have the balance for a true walk but illustrates the locomotive cycle and design of the Penetrator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AkKsxXqwrk

  An illustration of ED-209 walking.  It does have the appearance of knee joint but its locomotion is identical to our theoretical Penetrator: a retracting leg strut and a hip joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM_ZaTsym6E

That's exactly what I had meant! I think that second vid is spot on for how it probably walks (though with the legs reversed of course).

[Colt Ward]

The art from the over of the Archer novels make it look like its a stilt walker.

[YingJanshi]

The art from the over of the Archer novels make it look like its a stilt walker.

Well...the Archer novels were rather stilted...  ::)

[Colt Ward]

After further thinking . . . I think the single 7 series we get was a step in the right direction . . .

But it needed IJJ for jumping 6 hexes, and instead of the old MPLs give it a pair of Med VSPLs for reach/damage . . . and no reflec armor, too brittle against the enemy who have melee designs.  Reflec is good against the Clans or some of Davion's new gear using Clan spec lasers, not Dracs or Cappies.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Reflective is also better on fast-moving units that can more easily dictate range and insure they don't wind up in melee range with something they don't want to be in melee with and are more likely to be targeted by pulse lasers.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah . . . Scapha G, maybe the meanest backstabber in the 3140s.  Had a Timberwolf B pilot torso twist to get the cLPL lined up on the Scapha behind him . . . hah! rolled that high number for the TH (10 or 11 IIRC)! . . . what do you mean, only 5 points of damage?

[Nightsong]

The Penetrator is crying out for IJJ, but is so optimised, it's hard to know how to make the tonnage. Imagine a 4/6/6 mover with SnPPCs and MPLS ? But hard to get as optimised.

Light Engine/Endo perhaps? Need to free up 8 tons, correct? (4 for the existing 4, 4 for the remaining two) If you have anything left and don't have room for more heat sinks then armor? Will have to dig out SSW to take a look. Light Engine/Clan ER Larges could work too if Endo is too much critwise.

Edit: LE/Clan lasers wasn't enough though Endo-Composite gives you exactly enough.

[Death by Lasers]

That's exactly what I had meant! I think that second vid is spot on for how it probably walks (though with the legs reversed of course).

  Yeah, you called it.  ED-209 gave me the visual needed to see how that works.  Looking at the miniature this is totally how the thing must walk, the right leg is retracted and the left extended.  The only thing stopping me from buying a Penetrator has been my hang up on the leg design but your insight turned me 180 degrees and I've now bought one for my collection.

  On a side note the 7D sounds like it would be a real medium to short range beast, especially with the AES linked to those snub nose PPCs.

[Colt Ward]

Light Engine/Endo perhaps? Need to free up 8 tons, correct? (4 for the existing 4, 4 for the remaining two) If you have anything left and don't have room for more heat sinks then armor? Will have to dig out SSW to take a look. Light Engine/Clan ER Larges could work too if Endo is too much critwise.

Edit: LE/Clan lasers wasn't enough though Endo-Composite gives you exactly enough.

What I got through HMP was LFE, Endo and went with 2 Med VSPL since their damage is variable- 4/6/6 murder at closer ranges, still faces that 15 hex cap of the Snubs though . . . while I consider cERLL valid in the 3140s since that is what the FedSuns is making, it still falls to Apollo.

[mbear]

I'm not sure what version I like.  The snubbie version is nice but then you render the 'main battery' useless because you have to choose between firing either the snubbies or the pulsers.

Sounds like it needs a Coolant Pod or two. Maybe the Radical Heat Sink system. Of course good luck finding room for it.

[Iron Mongoose]

As to the legs, I suppose that's a side of not being a minis guy (though I still have the TROs and still see the art) because I never have to worry about how the Budweiser cap I'm using for the Penetrator that day is going to walk those four hexes to get into MPL range on the Fanta cap.

As to the mech... I've never been a huge fan.  Because of my style, it generally becomes a twin LL mech with a really good close ranged back up array, rather than a brawler.  Two ER LLs with decent heat on a well armored SFE mech with jets isn't bad, but it's less than many of its contemporaries (and I don't mind IS XL engines if I get my money's worth, so I often see high end XL mechs like the Dragon Fire as competitors).  As a brawler, it's still not in my mind great, because it is slow enough and short ranged enough with it's MPLs that it's hard to get it in front of a mech that it can really work on. 

As a result, I like the 6T much more.  I love TCs, so it is now and even better twin ER LL mech, but it can start "brawling" at 12 or 8 hexes rather than 6, and it really expands the sorts of targets it can brawl with beyond just assaults and other dedicated brawlers.  Though if I had my way, I'd see a 6T with standard MLs rather than either ER or Pulse (even after half a millennium I think that it's still the best non-Clan laser weapon) to keep the heat down and allow the Penetrator to really unleash some laser pain. 

As to the 7D, I really don't care for the SNPPC outside of really fast mechs that can stay in the weapon's sweet spot (and even then it's only just tolerable rather than genuinely good) so I'd avoid it if I could.  Interestingly, it wouldn't be a bad choice to take on another Penetrator, if the terrain allowed it to get in without getting burned up too bad by the ER LLs.

[UnLimiTeD]

The 7D's armour doesn't really bother me, many brawling designs like their lasers and they don't work so well here.
It isn't going down the silly route with spiked legs, but I think designs that have weakpoints and strengths in the same areas are interesting, as it's a two-sided tradeoff.
I'd have figured the legs would work exactly how this thread seems to have by now determined they do, though any engineers are probably screaming right now.
Well, they can do that on every mech.

[Colt Ward]

Its not the other brawlers that are really the problem . . . its things with missiles and ACs . . . and most brawlers have some and the fire support it should go after definitely does.  IIRC it also takes more damage from physicals and falling- which is what a brawler will get in order to get close for those MPLs.

[sadlerbw]

I'll rarely turn down a jumping flashbulb, so the Penetrator is certainly a mech I enjoy playing. Never been a huge fan of the art or the mini, but it has always been reasonably effective for me. You never get to use those pulse lasers as much as you would like, but they do offer a very hunchback-like deterrent that has value even when you aren't firing them. The ER Larges aren't bad per se, but they aren't great either, and the range is good enough that you can stay in the fight, even when facing faster opponents. The speed of this design, especially in the time frame is exists, is a problem, but the jump jets make it tolerable. Where something like a Rifleman or a Hunchback is just going to feel slow at 4/6 during the civil war, a 4/6/4 is enough to help keep up with the 5/8 heavies that are running around in that era.

By the time we get to the Jihad, I'm not sure it is enough anymore. I agree that Improved Jump Jets and/or Clan large lasers would have been great upgrades for this mech in 3150. You could have kept the IS Medium Pulse lasers so it wasn't totally optimized, and it would have made tons of sense as a refit. The snubbies, even with AES, are going in the wrong direction. Now you have a mech that is definitely slow for it's era, and it has the shortest ranged weapons of any variant. The 7D really needs a city or a dense forest that will force everyone to get in close, or it's going to have problems getting left behind and out of the brawls it wants to get in.

Lastly, I wanted to mention that this is one of those mechs where the Prime configuration is my favorite. Regardless of the era, if I have a choice I'm taking the original version.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I've used this mech a lot, including running one in a mercenary campaign for about a year.  It's a good mech, but the problem is that there's really only one thing you can do with it and once your opponent realizes that it's a fairly easy mech to counter.  It really suffers against the Clans since it lacks the speed to close with lighter mechs and the durability and firepower to mix it up with large mechs.

Actually I haven't heard anyone else placing the 4D in the bodyguard role.  Nearly a pure flashbulb and heavy armor plus AMS means it is likely to still be in semi-decent shape when most mechs are running low on ammo and/or armor.

Slot this into a LRM fire lance say.  The ERLLs mean it can still contribute for massed ranged fire, and if being replied to in kind the AMS comes into play.  Now as you pointed out, if someone wants to it is possible to dance outside the range of Inner Sphere MPLs.  OTOH if he wants those Archers and tries to be smart and get under the LRM minimums?  Well either the Penny's pilot switches over to massed MPL fire to punish him for it, or Mr CQC rethinks his tactical choices.  IOW yeah the MPLs are close range weapons, so make it that he has to come to you if he wants something important.

Another thing about the weapon set up, this was built, in an apparent hurry, when "Toad Terror" was a thing and the AFFC actually bought the Fireball as a counter.  Again, battle armor tries a massed rush?  AMS to blunt the missile salvo, and six medium lasers, enough for a point with a spare.  That is if you haven't had a chance to soften up the battle armor with the large lasers on the way in.

[Terrace]

Just to check, but what additional changes did the Archer variant make, given it had two free tons to work with?

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Just to check, but what additional changes did the Archer variant make, given it had two free tons to work with?

Don't see anything in Sarna.net, but given their smaller size and mass, I'd bet on a couple extra double heatsinks.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just to check, but what additional changes did the Archer variant make, given it had two free tons to work with?

There's never been an official record sheet printed for it, so it's unknown.  Extra DHS and/or armor are both good guesses.

[Colt Ward]

I thought it got a sheet when they did a bunch of the mixed tech sheets like the Angel's Caeser.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Nope.

[glitterboy2098]

the books never specified it either.. though when people found out about the modification, their main reaction was regarding the extra range and firepower it brought, which to me suggests that another 2 tons of armor is unlikely (since that would make the penetrator rather more durable as well, certainl worth noting)

so +2 DHS seems probable to me. certainly would make the penetrator more effective in using its firepower.. firing the ERLL's or the MPL array leaves you at -4 instead of heat neutral as in the stock model, so you won't build up heat while moving and firing.. even if you jump.

certainly this would play into Christofori's rather mobile fighting style.

[Kidd]

The Christifori novels consistently describe his Penetrator as a modded PTR-4D equipped with Clan ER Large Lasers, IS medium pulse lasers and an AMS system. Though the smart thing obviously is to mount 2 more DHSs (sufficient to make him actually lose heat on a run-and-gun), the novels have Christifori ride the heat curve often despite being a bracket firer at most times. If I were to design his Mech therefore, I'd "waste" the tonnage on things like communications equipment or heavy-duty gyro.