'Mech of the Week: TNS-* Thanatos

[Empyrus]

Removed until further notice.

[Wrangler]

Thanks for the article, Empyrus.

Thanatos wasn't quite one my favorite machines. It's nice close in machine, but the XL being in there is asking for trouble if anything punches through one of the side torsos.

I had always hoped that the Thanatos would be given a Omni version, after things sorted themselves out after Jihad.  Such as life i guess.

Thanatos, Mech of Fate... :-X

[Getz]

I'm a big fan on heavy cavalry mechs and I love the way it looks, but the Thanatos has never quite managed to spark my imagination.  I think it's partly because I hate MRMs, and the smaller racks in particular.  If the MRM 20 was an LRM 15 I'd immediately like the design a lot more.  However, I also find the 4S to be a bit under gunned for the heavy cavalry role - I wish it had something more substantial than an ER Large laser in it's left arm.  The 4T fixes that but becomes a very different beast in the process.

The Inner Sphere doesn't lack for slowish, powerful heavies so the 4T doesn't really stand out for me, but the 4S comes within an ace of being a serious contender to the Falconer as the best inner sphere Heavy cavalry mech.  So near yet so far.

[Empyrus]

Wasn't 20-rack minimum for clearing mines? If so, the MRM-20 has some utility compared to the LRM-15. Ignoring mine-clearance missiles and all the other fun options for LRMs.

I can see some options for tweaking. I'd prefer a MRM-30 over MRM-20, sacrificing the C3, Guardian and swapping the MPL for standard/ER medium would free enough tonnage for the MRM and some extra armor.
Alternatively, the MPL and the ERLL could be replaced with an ER PPC. Or maybe a large pulse laser to enhance close combat, though i won't pretend that to be rather inefficient choice, especially with MRMs already on-board.

Now that i think of this, the Thanatos is a pretty good platform for a customized ride. And the Modular Weapons quirk helps with this.

EDIT As for best cavalry 'Mech... Well, no comment on that quite but the 4S is some 400BV cheaper than the Falconer 3R. One could use that BV for better pilot or upgrading other 'Mechs. IMO, good reason to pick the Thanatos over the Falconer... along with the looks.
Of course, the Falconer's 9R variant is very good and only slightly more expensive than the Thanatos...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The looks aside, the most distinctive thing about the Thanatos is that it is one of the 'Mechs originating from MechWarrior PC games, Mechwarrior IV: Vengeance to be specific. Since the MWIV didn't use same construction rules as tabletop BattleTech, translating the 'Mech to BattleTech clearly has required some creativity, leading to two different variants that both embody aspects of the video game version. (I also have vague recollection of reading something about the Thanatos being voted for MechWarrior IV by fans, but I cannot confirm this at this time. If anyone has any information, please tell us.)

The Thanatos's name was decided via online voting.

[Iron Mongoose]

I never understood the non-Omni thing.  I'd imagine omnis to be in high demand, and since there were only a hand full in production, most in the DC, I would have thought the FedCom states to be chomping at the bit to get one produced domestically that could compete with the Avatar and Sunder and so on (though granted the Thanatos is faster, so different in that regard).  They did go on to make the Templar and Hauptman, so clearly they weren't entirely over omnis.

As to the mech, it's in a class I like, so it's not without its uses, and I did actually enjoy MW4 at the time so I don't have bad memories of it (though I never used it since I went for the assaults quick as I could, like everyone else).  But most of its variants just don't do it for me.  MRMs aren't useless, but you either need a solid C3 network, which is hard to put together outside the DCMS, or you need to get in close, which is fine for this application, but not usually what I need to look for.  Reminds me a lot of the Lao Hu in its way, though I don't like it as well.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I never understood the non-Omni thing.  I'd imagine omnis to be in high demand, and since there were only a hand full in production, most in the DC, I would have thought the FedCom states to be chomping at the bit to get one produced domestically that could compete with the Avatar and Sunder and so on (though granted the Thanatos is faster, so different in that regard).  They did go on to make the Templar and Hauptman, so clearly they weren't entirely over omnis.

As to the mech, it's in a class I like, so it's not without its uses, and I did actually enjoy MW4 at the time so I don't have bad memories of it (though I never used it since I went for the assaults quick as I could, like everyone else).  But most of its variants just don't do it for me.  MRMs aren't useless, but you either need a solid C3 network, which is hard to put together outside the DCMS, or you need to get in close, which is fine for this application, but not usually what I need to look for.  Reminds me a lot of the Lao Hu in its way, though I don't like it as well.

My understanding is that it was a classic case of bureaucratic snafus.  Essentially funding for procuring omnis and regular battlemechs came from different accounts.  The Omni account was tapped out from buying Kuritan 1st-gen designs.  The standard mech accounts, on the other hand, had plenty of funding due to the run on omnis.  It's the same reason that George Hasek funded the Templar out of his private funds.

[Empyrus]

As to the mech, it's in a class I like, so it's not without its uses, and I did actually enjoy MW4 at the time so I don't have bad memories of it (though I never used it since I went for the assaults quick as I could, like everyone else).  But most of its variants just don't do it for me.  MRMs aren't useless, but you either need a solid C3 network, which is hard to put together outside the DCMS, or you need to get in close, which is fine for this application, but not usually what I need to look for.  Reminds me a lot of the Lao Hu in its way, though I don't like it as well.

The FedSuns seem to be the second biggest C3 user and have good variety of units to use the Thanatos with. And they have reasonable amount of vehicles with C3 as well, IIRC.

Ironically the Thanatos would go nicely with various Spherod OmniMechs as they usually have at least one C3 configuration.

[glitterboy2098]

I never understood the non-Omni thing.  I'd imagine omnis to be in high demand, and since there were only a hand full in production, most in the DC, I would have thought the FedCom states to be chomping at the bit to get one produced domestically that could compete with the Avatar and Sunder and so on (though granted the Thanatos is faster, so different in that regard).  They did go on to make the Templar and Hauptman, so clearly they weren't entirely over omnis.

could just be that they were not interested in an Omni they didn't request? the Templar and hauptman were developed with the cooperation of the AFFS and LAAF by their respective companies.. the Thanataos was apparently developed independently and then offered once developed.

[Empyrus]

Was the Templar developed in co-operation with AFFS as it was bank-rolled by Hasek? Or was it a case of "What you need, i'll pay for it"?

I presume the AFFS also saw little need for the Thanatos, and the Argus, as both are heavy cavalry 'Mechs and the Black Hawk-KU basically fulfills that role already. (Yes, yes, it doesn't have record sheets for all kinds of roles, but most Omnis don't.)

The general IS Omnis are pretty varied. Ignoring the Raptor (due to its rarity), the Owens, Strider and Firestarter Omni are scouts, skirmishers and battle armor carriers; the Blackjack Omni is a medium gunboat; the Black Hawk-KU is heavy cavalry; the Avatar is heavy gunboat; and the Sunder is an assault unit. There is little to add to that line-up, especially considering the cost of Omnis. A slower, tougher assault would be an option, along with a faster combat medium but ultimately missing these is not that big deal.
The Thanatos and Argus wouldn't add much to this as Omnis.
(As national Omnis go, the Men Shen and Hauptmann add most to this line-up pre-Jihad.)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'd actually disagree there.  The Black Hawk KU is technically a heavy, but it fights more like a medium cavalry mech thanks to its relatively limited pod space.  A Thanatos omni that kept the 5/8 movement could have added something significant.

[Empyrus]

Sure. I've always felt 60 ton designs tend to feel still more like mediums than heavies, though all transition tonnages (40, 60, 80) are problematic.
But in-universe, assuming the classes are organizationally strict, the Argus and Thanatos both compete with the Black Hawk-KU for the heavy cavalry slot.

[Iron Mongoose]

I agree about the Blackhawk.  It was after all modeled on the 50 ton Nova, which is already a mid pack medium in its own right thanks to being pretty old.  Sure, it jumps and has solid armor, but I think there's little question that an Omni Thanatos would offer an improvement.  It would, if the sensibly pod mounted the jets, fill the Timber Wolf's role among IS forces (if never as well) or else the Summoner if they hard mounted the jets (the 3060 and 3067 omnis seem not to do this, so a hypothetical Thanatos omni might well have been spared this).  Both would set it a class above the Blackhawk, just as the Templar and Men Shen refine the Sunder and Firestarter just that much more.

Plus, the Thanatos and Blackhawk wouldn't have been compeating for assembly line space.  There'd be no reason to pick one or the other, after all.  Sure, it might have been a pick between a regiment of Thanatos omnis or four battalions of regular Thanatoses, but that doesn't preclude either buying or selling a Blackhawk regiment to go with them.

[marauder648]

Nice write up thank you for doing it.  For me the Thanatos has always been more a Summoner/Thor clone, all be it one that at least the standard, seems a bit undergunned for its role, sacrificing firepower for its mobility.  The LB-20 variant is nice but its then very much a close quarters/tight confines machine.

To me the Argos is more a striker than a heavy cavalry, as a H-Cav needs to be able to take a hit and a 60 tonner just isn't that durable, and its lack of JJ's is a bit irritating.  So the Thanatos falls into the heavy cavalry role because its JJ's give it the mobility for the role even if its firepower is generally a bit on the light side of things.

[UnLimiTeD]

A nice, blocky machine.
Thanks for the background, too.
A pity the available variants are less than stellar.

[Empyrus]

Nice write up thank you for doing it.  For me the Thanatos has always been more a Summoner/Thor clone, all be it one that at least the standard, seems a bit undergunned for its role, sacrificing firepower for its mobility.  The LB-20 variant is nice but its then very much a close quarters/tight confines machine.

Good you mentioned the Summoner... I forgot it completely but i think MWIV:V/M mentions that the 'Mech was based on the Thor. And really, it makes some sense, though obviously the Thanatos is not as capable as the Summoner, can't really compete with Clan-tech.

[Empyrus]

Looks like the BMM final release quirk list removed Modular Weapons from Thanatos. A mistake, IMO, but it doesn't really change things much.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I wish they would release the Omni version of the Argus and Thanatos in one of the prototype or other type PDF products.  It also shows up in the later Chaos Irregular stories since O salvaged one.  One of the best discussions is about mercs pulling the C3 slave and its location which makes the Felix interesting.

I want to like the Thanatos but the blah of IS ERLL and MRMs kind of kills it . . . I wish we had gotten a update of the 4S using Jihad tech, a Snubbie would be SO much better than the IS ERLL and MMLs rather than MRMs would be great.

[blitzy]

it's an interesting mech but kinda boring, I always wanted to try a large MML instead of the MRM.

[Firesprocket]

The design has pretty modest potential, but the weapon loads on most versions are pretty poor.  For some reason no one seems to have wanted to have modified the chassis for a better load out post Jihad.  It is quite baffling honestly.

[misterpants]

Never played with the Thanatos, so take my 2 cents with a grain of salt -

*adds crossed metaphors to ledger of sins*

- but when I first bought the first edition of TRO3067, one of the things that soured me on the base Thanatos was how its primary weapons were the same as the Chimera. At the time my opinion was one part undergunned if a faster & lighter mech could match it at range, one part annoyance at duplicate payloads, and one part underwhelmed by (unfairly) comparing it to the Falconer, Jinggau, and Daikyu -02.

Now that I'm aware of the MW4 side, I feel less critical of the Thanatos from an OOC view.

[Sabelkatten]

If you sacrifice a bit of armor, the extra heat sinks, and two of the MPLs you can manage to MW loadout with 5/8/5 speed. It wouldn't be a good mech, but it would be a bit different... :-\

[Deadborder]

The 4S is a nice 'Mech with an underwhelming weapon load. I like it, but I just wish it was a tad better. I would have liked an upgrade with a Snub, but then I think a snub is good on anything,  so....

The 4T is a nice unpleasant surprise for the unaware, but again lacks reach. On the other hand, mugging people with a LBX -20 is allways fun.

[Empyrus]

As i think this, i figure the issue with Thanatos are the jump jets. But then i'm not big on jump jets, and especially for high-mobility 'Mechs (5/8 is high mobility for high-end heavy) i really don't see JJs as important. A Clan heavy with JJs works because they still pack a punch. A Spheroid heavy with jumpers is a bit more questionable unless it is 4/6/4.
The 5 tons would go a long way, like swapping the ERLL for an ERPPC and the MRM-20 for a MRM-30 (no, not interested in a LRM refit even if it is smart). Or keep the ERLL and double ERML count.

Disagree on the snub-nose PPC for 4S refit. It is a good brawling weapon, most certainly an improvement over the Spheroid large pulse laser, but on a 'Mech where the sole long-range weapon is ERLL, i really wouldn't swap it for a snubby and lose even more range.

[Colt Ward]

You only lose 4 hexes of range . . . and the companion swap that was mentioned was going MML.

Personally I think the Thanatos would have been a great AFFS mech to slap VSPL on, especially as a jumper.

[Empyrus]

MMLs, also known as "slightly bigger SRM racks". 5 LRMs on average at range is even less impressive than an ERLL.
And it is not just loss of 4 hexes of range but also loss of 3 points of damage, while requiring more tonnage.

[Colt Ward]

Sure you lose a bit of damage, but like the Snub you get more as you close . . . and if you are not stripping out the secondary weapons to get more long range throw weight you are also wasting weight on DHS . . . because if you are trying to duel at range you have 5 DHS sitting around.  But its a cav jump, its supposed to get in close (armor layout supports) . . . its nearly a alpha baby in close, and easy to cool with a pattern of alpha- alpha minus ERML or MPL- alpha.  If your jumping you just do not fire the MPL or a ERML while moving in close.

As I said, I would have preferred to see the -4S get equipped with VSPL and maybe a SC for a 3100s upgrade that would be different . . . maybe strip out the MRM for some RL pods in the arm for giggles.

[Empyrus]

Even with a brawler, i really prefer having a weapon that can reach to long range (which i define as over 15 hexes for standard tech level). One that does consistent damage.
With the Thanatos, i will go up close and personal ASAP but while approaching, i like poking enemies at range if i get a chance, or adding to long-range 'Mechs barrages. Neither snubby nor a MML really do this.

EDIT This is relative to tech level, role and weight class though. A support 'Mech like Raven works OK without even 15-hex weapons (or even 12-hex in its 3050s iteration). At introductory level, the large laser and AC/10 are effectively long-range weapons. A LRM-'Mech doesn't need a consistent long-range weapon. But at standard tech level and for a heavy, i don't really care for short/mid-range-only armament, though i will make exceptions for some boats, like the Black Hawk-KU Prime.

[Getz]

I ran a Thanatos in a campaign once where I replaced the ER LL with an ER PPC and swapped the MRM20 for two SRM6s (I pulled the C3 slave for the extra ton).  That worked pretty well in practice - a genuinely long ranged hole poker and some serious short ranged whallop.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, that's a nice loadout.