A Solid Design: The Enforcer

[Vonshroom]

Hello all,

I have actually been out of the game for a little while (college and work / life getting in the way) and am slowly coming back (as we all do). Anyways over the past month I have played six games and been more active here on the boards. Cutting to the chase I wanted to do a fast write up on one of my favorite mechs, and one that has been present in all of the games I have played recently sans one; The Enforcer ENF-4R. I don't want to get into a "mech of the week" article. But rather share my experience with its use, good pairings, and effective strategies for the mech. If you all would like to share your experiences and strategies that would be great!

The Enforcer is a proverbial brick. I greatly enjoy its use because of its varied, yet simple armament that works well. It has thick front armor, all of its weapons fire forward, it jumps, and it is relatively well sinked. My use of the Enforcer always pairs it with a buddy or multiples. While not my preferred mech for a "duelist" approach, the Enforcer works quite well as a wingman or member of a lance. For the base '25 era units I think it was quite well designed. It has two heat sinks padding its right torso ammo bin, with 10 rounds for the AC, other than that, nothing goes boom. Personally I like to have at least half (preferably more) as energy based weapons. AC's and LRM's are nice, but only when backed up with PPC's and Lasers. A lot of people whine about the limited ammunition stores of the Enforcer, and Sarna even lists it as the designs single greatest flaw. Personally, I actually like the fact that it only carries 10 rounds for the AC.

Your mileage may vary, but for me, by the time the Enforcer is down to a few shots for its cannon, it is pretty well screwed up armor wise. At this point in time, any ammo you have left becomes a liability and not an asset. This is my problem with many of the designs of the era, there is just too much to explode. I haven't lost an Enforcer to an ammo explosion yet, and never felt like I could really use more Autocannon shells. Sure, you have to pick your shots a little more with this beasty, but if you are smart and aren't chucking 10 point slugs down range at 12 to hit, you should be fine. Oftentimes the AC will get critted out by the time I am down to 2-3 shots. Additionally once the AC ammo is gone, or dumped, your mech is effectively a zombie, not a high damage dealing zombie, but a zombie nonetheless.

Ive found good use for this mech as either an anchor (in medium and light lances) or as the support to a heavier anchor mech. The Enforcer provides powerful mid range punch to support the anchor's heavier firepower, and can often get off a lot of shots while being ignored due to its proximity to a bigger nastier unit. If the heavier unit its buddied with starts taking too much fire, you can move the Enforcer out and play distraction. It usually has the armor to hold. This tactic works best when supported by a missile mech, and a fast backstabby flanker unit.

By anchor I am referring to a mech that "anchors" your force, not a specific mech designation. ;)

Love to hear what you think about the Enforcer, what it pairs well with, etc.

[Natasha Kerensky]

The Enforcer is a pocket-heavy in the Succession Wars.  Slow for its weight, but carries two solid, mid-ranged hole-punchers, thick armor, and jump mobility.  Best used against other mechs, but carries some anti-infantry capability and can always go physical on tanks, too.  Efficient for the BV and makes good use of its ten free heat sinks.  Pairs well with SRM crit-seekers up front and LRM fire support from behind.  Decent on point or flanks, too.  Handles most terrain well.  Can round out heavy and assault lances cheaply.  Back in the day, I loved running Dragoon/Zeta lances pairing Enforcers with Marauder IIs and FedCom lances pairing Enforcers with Zeus -6Ts.

For greater survivability, drop the AC/10 and ammo for a PPC and six more heat sinks.  Now with 18 heat sinks, she can fire both the PPC and large laser and stay heat neutral.  She can also walk like that without negative heat modifiers for four turns, or run for two turns, or jump for one turn.  After that, drop the large laser from the firing sequence for one turn to get back to zero heat.  Gotta watch the minimum range on the PPC but no ammo vulnerability now and lots of heat sinks to absorb crits.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, have to wonder why we really did not get any 3025 era variants for the Davion 'staple' since putting a PPC on it for the AC/10 or LL and varying the secondary weapons would be interesting.

[Empyrus]

It is a Davion 'Mech with an autocannon. They obviously couldn't figure why it might need a PPC, or how it might be an improvement.

(Whoever designed Marauder 3D can't have been a Davion by birth. For someone removed the AC/5...)

Ironically, i've heard the Enforcer pairs well with the Vindicator, never tested that myself but i can see the logic. St. Ives Compact must have used that combination...

[Colt Ward]

You can give it a PPC & AC/5, still works out for the heat and IIRC get a ML as a back up weapon . . . you loose 3 points of damage beyond 9 hexes but gain a bit more range and your 10 point hit lasts longer lol.

[SCC]

Yeah, have to wonder why we really did not get any 3025 era variants for the Davion 'staple' since putting a PPC on it for the AC/10 or LL and varying the secondary weapons would be interesting.

It's hard to justify in the era? Remember single HS only

[Colt Ward]

Sure, but I am not trying to suggest breaking the pairing of energy weapon and AC.  The Valkyrie and Jagermech both have variants in that time frame while we just have the -4R . . . granted the Centurion sort of makes up for it.

[Vonshroom]

I like the AC/10 for PPC and 6 extra heat sinks idea, and have used one a bit. It is a favorite of mine for mercenary campaigns that allow for modded mechs. Although typically I only add the PPC, 5 HS, and upgrade the small laser to a Medium. This leaves half a ton left over for a bit extra armor that is badly needed in the rear. Still has just about everything the stock Enforcer has, and now doesnt have to worry about ammo or exploding. Sure the heat scale is a little harder to manage, but in the 3025 era, the LLaser PPC design still would be classified as one of the cooler running mechs. ;)

Ironically, i've heard the Enforcer pairs well with the Vindicator, never tested that myself but i can see the logic. St. Ives Compact must have used that combination...

And Empyrus yes, the two work vary well together. I usually play as Mercs or Periphery Bums, (sometimes both) and commonly field Enforcers and Vindicators together. Frankly if someone said in the '25 era "Pick two mediums, you don't know what you are fighting." I would go with a Enforcer, and stock Vindicator hands down. The Enforcer really shines when it has some LRM's to sand armor off of the opponent, which is why it goes well with mechs like the Trebuchet, or Dervish, Whitworth, etc. But none of those units have the stand and deliver ability of the Vindicator, which I feel is one of, if not the best designed mechs of the initial game. Flashbulbs rule, but these two add a fun flair that is hard to match.

Can't go wrong with a Vindi / Enforcer combo, and it is probably one of my most fielded pairs.

[Vonshroom]

Sure, but I am not trying to suggest breaking the pairing of energy weapon and AC.  The Valkyrie and Jagermech both have variants in that time frame while we just have the -4R . . . granted the Centurion sort of makes up for it.

Haha, I love most Davion designs but the variants of the Jager and the Valkyrie are a joke. I actually use a Valkyrie quite often, but the Flamer version is frankly laughable. As a light, it is going to be facing other lights and they are going to get inside minimum range for those LRM's it needs its Medium Laser.

The Jagermechs variants are also kind of laughable, I actually have a weird affinity for the mech, and find myself fielding it for no other reason than its fun, and its art looks cool in a weird and dorky way. The A model is arguable better than the stock version, with the twin LRM's.

Ironically both Jagermech A's and Valkyries pair excellently with the vaunted Enforcer I wrote this post about. As mentioned in my previous reply and initial post, LRM mechs tend to remove just enough armor that the Enforcers two medium - long range hole punchers open things up like a can-opener. Leading to nasty results.

[Phobos101]

You know, I've never actually tabled an Enforcer, and I think that's based on looks alone. After reading this post, I opened up the record sheet, and I'm really keen to give it a go!

[Pooman]

I really like the Enforcer. It can completely own most mediums of the era. I reckon they work well in pairs and make great bodyguards from backstabbers.

[glitterboy2098]

Haha, I love most Davion designs but the variants of the Jager and the Valkyrie are a joke. I actually use a Valkyrie quite often, but the Flamer version is frankly laughable. As a light, it is going to be facing other lights and they are going to get inside minimum range for those LRM's it needs its Medium Laser.

The Jagermechs variants are also kind of laughable, I actually have a weird affinity for the mech, and find myself fielding it for no other reason than its fun, and its art looks cool in a weird and dorky way. The A model is arguable better than the stock version, with the twin LRM's.

Jagermechs only are laughable in an anti-mech role. loaded with Flak for anti-air (as they were designed for) they are really nasty, able to keep up constant highly accurate fire at a range that denies airspace over a large area.

most of the jagermech variants are efforts to take this pure AA machine and make it useful in the ground combat commander's keep forcing it to do.

[Kovax]

I'm ambivalent about the ENF: no problem using it, but won't go out of my way to pick one.  While it packs a respectable punch, and the big hole-puncher is scary for anything lighter that tries to take it on, it's not fast, carries "reasonable" but not heavy armor, and has a weapons range limit that can be exploited by machines wielding PPCs, AC/5s, or LRMs, yet isn't particularly devastating as an in-fighter.  The one point in its favor is that the big gun is arm-mounted, meaning that it can be turned to hit anything that tries to back-shoot the ENF.

In short, it's a solid but not outstanding machine for use in a formation, but a bit weak as a solo element.  Personally, I'm more fond of the Centurion, the Vindicator, or the lighter Whitworth in the 4/6 movement category, or of the 5/8 movement designs such as the GRF or DV which can both outrun and outrange the ENF, and I absolutely enjoy running rings around the slower units with a 6/9 speed PXH or HER II, even though the former needs to rely on high fire modifiers due to speed for its advantage, because it lacks a longer-ranged weapon than what it's up against.

[Vonshroom]

In short, it's a solid but not outstanding machine for use in a formation, but a bit weak as a solo element.  Personally, I'm more fond of the Centurion, the Vindicator, or the lighter Whitworth in the 4/6 movement category, or of the 5/8 movement designs such as the GRF or DV which can both outrun and outrange the ENF, and I absolutely enjoy running rings around the slower units with a 6/9 speed PXH or HER II, even though the former needs to rely on high fire modifiers due to speed for its advantage, because it lacks a longer-ranged weapon than what it's up against.

Kovax,

You bring up a lot of what I see as being wrong with the Enforcer as well, but I think that some of your points don't really hold water. In Battletech, and especially in 3025 era games compromise is literally the name of the game. Oftentimes I hear players (and find myself describing) that there are three options to choose from; Speed, Armor, and Firepower. You can pick two. Really this is the case, and to me the Enforcer is a mech that really shines in its efficient mix of all three.
With that said, First off i want to agree, its weapons while respectable are not particularly damage heavy, and it is weak as a solo "duelist" mech. Sure it won't be much use as a scout, it can't outgun the more weapon oriented mechs, and it lacks the extreme armor protection of some other mechs. While 4/6 is sort of "slow" it is a speed that quite  lot of mediums and heavies in the '25 era go. The 4 Jump Jets add to its mobility, so while not what I would call a speedy design, it is quite capable of maneuvering around a mapsheet or two.

You bring up the fact it has a weapons range limit that allows other machines to exploit it, but I don't really agree. Faster units with AC2's and LRMs might be able to stay out of range, but realistically in most games there is going to be some sort of cover, and the size of your battlefield isn't unlimited. I don't see the 3 hex difference in range between the Enforcer's primary weapons and a PPC / AC/5 to be that impacting. Now the 6 hex difference in range between an AC/10 / LLaser and some LRM's that is far enough that a unit might be able to effectively capitalize assuming two things. One, it can outmaneuver the Enforcer, and by outmaneuver I mean stay at least 15 hexes from it. And two, that it has enough firepower to destroy or damage it enough. Frankly I find in most games, 4/6 mechs tend to catch stuff they are determined to, outside of fast lights lacking the firepower (or range) to deal with the Enforcer.

In my opinion LRM equipped mechs are the only thing I can see that can capitalize on a range advantage over the Enforcer. At least in succession wars era play.

Ironically you bring up a lot of my favorite mechs as the models you are more fond of, and I understand what you see in those designs. I second your point about the Enforcer being a team player, if forced to take a single mech into combat against a single mech, the Enforcer won't make the shortlist. But if I can have two...

I don't see the Centurion even coming close to the Enforcer though, in my opinion it is a much worse design, although I really want to love it, and it is aesthetically a very cool design as well. Really the biggest downfall the Centurion has is its  extra ammo.

Good Discussion!

[Vonshroom]

Jagermechs only are laughable in an anti-mech role. loaded with Flak for anti-air (as they were designed for) they are really nasty, able to keep up constant highly accurate fire at a range that denies airspace over a large area.

most of the jagermech variants are efforts to take this pure AA machine and make it useful in the ground combat commander's keep forcing it to do.

Ah, very true. I tend to fit the mold of "one of those ground combat commanders". Most of the games I've played and all of the recent ones have been strictly mech on mech combat. Of course I know the Jager's fluff, and admit that in this role it serves well. From the perspective of facing aero units, the Jagermech does really start to shine.

[Kovax]

Jagermechs only are laughable in an anti-mech role. loaded with Flak for anti-air (as they were designed for) they are really nasty, able to keep up constant highly accurate fire at a range that denies airspace over a large area.

most of the jagermech variants are efforts to take this pure AA machine and make it useful in the ground combat commander's keep forcing it to do.

...not to mention what a vehicle commander thinks of them.  The "Jaeger" has the weapons to immobilize tanks at ranges beyond what most vehicles can respond from, and can potentially put up to four hits a turn on something outside of SRM, AC/10, or Large Laser range.

The JM is definitely weak if/when pitted against other 'Mechs, otherwise it's a very effective design.

[mbear]

The Enforcer is a pocket-heavy in the Succession Wars.  Slow for its weight, but carries two solid, mid-ranged hole-punchers, thick armor, and jump mobility.  Best used against other mechs, but carries some anti-infantry capability and can always go physical on tanks, too.  Efficient for the BV and makes good use of its ten free heat sinks. Pairs well with SRM crit-seekers up front and LRM fire support from behind. Decent on point or flanks, too.  Handles most terrain well. 

Ever pair an Enforcer with a Dervish? It's amazing. The Enforcer stands off and smashes holes, the Dervish critseeks and then moves away. Even better is a lance with 2 Enforcers and 2 Dervishes. You do what I just said, but the Dervish that isn't using SRMs can use LRMs. I'm not explaining it well, but if you play the lance you'll see what I mean.

[Vonshroom]

Ever pair an Enforcer with a Dervish? It's amazing.

All the time, thats actually a favorite pairing of mine. If I have 2 mediums you can bet it will be this pair. Quite nasty especially with the right lance mates.

[Getz]

Ever pair an Enforcer with a Dervish? It's amazing. The Enforcer stands off and smashes holes, the Dervish critseeks and then moves away. Even better is a lance with 2 Enforcers and 2 Dervishes. You do what I just said, but the Dervish that isn't using SRMs can use LRMs. I'm not explaining it well, but if you play the lance you'll see what I mean.

They also like Whitworths for team mates.

[Kovax]

They also like Whitworths for team mates.

I can agree with this.  The WTH has the tools to do what the ENF doesn't do well, and vice versa.  A DV would potentially be a slightly better combo, but a lot more tonnage/cost/BV for not much more capability.

Compare that to pairing it with a Trebuchet: just about every instance where I've seen a "Trashbucket" on the map, the after-action report's description of its performance ended with "...and then it exploded"; simply not enough armor on the torso sides to protect its completely unpadded ammo locations.  In contrast, I've had amazing results with several Whitworths, which basically exhausted their LRMs and then became "zombies", wading into the field of already battered medium-weight sluggers and wreaking havoc with their triple MLs.

[Empyrus]

4/6(/4) medium lance:
Enforcer, Whitworth, Centurion, Blackjack. EDIT Alternatively, slot a Hunchback there, variant depending on what you need.

All four 'Mechs are reasonably common among Davion forces.

[Daryk]

I can agree with this.  The WTH has the tools to do what the ENF doesn't do well, and vice versa.  A DV would potentially be a slightly better combo, but a lot more tonnage/cost/BV for not much more capability.

Compare that to pairing it with a Trebuchet: just about every instance where I've seen a "Trashbucket" on the map, the after-action report's description of its performance ended with "...and then it exploded"; simply not enough armor on the torso sides to protect its completely unpadded ammo locations.  In contrast, I've had amazing results with several Whitworths, which basically exhausted their LRMs and then became "zombies", wading into the field of already battered medium-weight sluggers and wreaking havoc with their triple MLs.

The 5J variant of the Trebuchet isn't too bad.

[Kovax]

4/6(/4) medium lance:
Enforcer, Whitworth, Centurion, Blackjack. EDIT Alternatively, slot a Hunchback there, variant depending on what you need.

All four 'Mechs are reasonably common among Davion forces.

Alternatively, slot a HBK-4J there.  It's got the LRMs of a DV or WTH, and 5 MLs with the heatsinks to use them, covered by a bit more armor than either.  Fairly popular in Kurita territory, from what I understand, not that HBK variants are at all uncommon in general.

[Vonshroom]

The 5J variant of the Trebuchet isn't too bad.

I agree, the 5J actually works quite well.

Basically any missile lobbers work well with the Enforcer. Also the added benefit of pairing a missile mech with an Enforcer is they can watch the Enforcers back. With its paper thin rear armor, lights and fast mediums are tempted to run into its rear arc and unload. However they aren't going to be so hot to do this is they are facing a couple flights of LRMs to their back.

[haesslich]

Is it wrong to like the Watchman for being derived from the Enforcer while behind speedy enough and decently gunned enough to serve as its wingman?

That said, I like the Crusader acting as the heavy  element in a lance  with one or two Enforcers and a Dervish.

[mbear]

Alternatively, slot a HBK-4J there.  It's got the LRMs of a DV or WTH, and 5 MLs with the heatsinks to use them, covered by a bit more armor than either.  Fairly popular in Kurita territory, from what I understand, not that HBK variants are at all uncommon in general.

And therefore you can say some Draconis March AFFS MechWarrior captured it from a DCMS pilot.

[MarauderD]

If we left the 3025 era and put things forward to 3069--which Enforcer and lancemates would you choose?

I was thinking Enforcer 6m, Dervish 9D, Sentry 04, Shadow Hawk 5D?

This lance could handle infantry, vehicles, and light to medium mech lances. Aerosspace would be iffy...but overall; I like it.

[Vonshroom]

If we left the 3025 era and put things forward to 3069--which Enforcer and lancemates would you choose?

I was thinking Enforcer 6m, Dervish 9D, Sentry 04, Shadow Hawk 5D?

This lance could handle infantry, vehicles, and light to medium mech lances. Aerosspace would be iffy...but overall; I like it.

Well I am going to assume a couple of things for this exercise, that I am either FEDCOM or Mercs and I need a single lance sized unit that is going to be able to deal with a little bit of everything, Aero, Infantry, Vees, and of course mechs.

To me the Enforcer really loses a lot of its flavor after the introduction of 3050 tech and all of the new units leading up to the year 3069. Frankly after this point there are many better units than a 4R Enforcer, but it is still a solid design for a militia force. The 5D is in my opinion a worse version of the 4R. It does some things right, but it plugs in an XL engine that doesn't allow the mech to move fast enough to offset its new vulnerability. Yes, you might be able to stick me in with them STD engine cartel guys... but frankly STD engines make sense for "line" units. Which is in my opinion, what the Enforcer is intended to be. The Enforcer III proposes some unique new variants that I very much like, but still suffers from that XL engine. On front line medium designs, XL's aren't my cup of tea. Where an XL shines is when it gives a mech a very high level of maneuverability for its weight. 5/8/5 on a medium in 3069 doesn't fit the bill for "high level of maneuverability for its weight".

I make some exceptions to this rule for medium "line" designs that just outright work with XL engines, such as the Lynx, Bushwacker, Grim Reaper, or Shockwave in later eras. All of these designs bring something the "upgraded" Enforcer just doesn't bring to the table, raw damage output. In each case, these mechs move as fast as the upgraded Enforcer, are just as survivable (or more so) and can deal twice the amount of damage or more from good range. Allowing them to greatly contribute to the fight before they go down.

With all of this in mind, the Enforcer really only brings two things to the table in 3050+ games.

1. Cheaper, lighter playmate for heavier nasty units that need a little buddy
2. Member of a dedicated "flanker" lance that is going to use its decent firepower/speed ratio to outmaneuver other units

This lets you, as a commander, plug the mech into whichever role needs filling. Need a fourth member to replace the loss in your heavy lance? Stick in an Enforcer. Need another member for a Flanking lance to pair with some other quick XL units? Stick in a 5D or a ENF-III.

Now that all of that is out there... Here's the sort of lance I'd want to match up to an Enforcer.

[Daryk]

???

Did you forget to paste something there at the end of that post?

[Vonshroom]

See my above reply.

Here's what I'd run with an Enforcer. Honestly in 3069 I wouldn't go off designing my lance around an Enforcer, but since thats the exercise, here we go.

Well off FedCom Unit

Line Lance
Templar-Tancred if possible, C variant, or Prime (any work well)
Penetrator
Axman-2N
Enforcer III
This is a heavy Line lance for a very well equipped Fedsuns unit for the era. The Templar, Penetrator and Enforcer can all put nasty hits on target at pretty good range, and the Axman can really exploit those holes with the LRM's it carries. Things staying back at range are going to be systematically annihilated, and anything pushing close will have to deal with the Penetrators 6 Medium Pulse lasers, a big axe, and depending on the variant of the Templar, either a load of Medium pulse lasers and an LB-20 some close in RAC's or some good pulse lasers and streak backup. I've ran this, and it is naaassstyy. Vehicles are going to get scrapped, it works alright against aerospace, and Mechs hate it. Infantry is the only thing its "weak" against.

Flank Lance

Argus-4D
Nightsky-4S
Bushwacker-X1
Enforcer III

Fast enough to get around the battlefield, Solid mid range firepower, enough LRM's to take advantage of holes punched in armor, pulse lasers to kill lights, and several big hole punchers to knock out mechs. Works against just about anything.


Cheaper Lance - Usage of these is a lot more self explanatory. Both are fairly well rounded. Preferable going with the Enforcer III but availability might not be there...

Enforcer-5D / III if available
Dervish-7D
Watchman
NightHawk


Lynx
Talon
Enforcer-5D / III if available
Nighthawk

[Vonshroom]

???

Did you forget to paste something there at the end of that post?

Somehow It got lost in translation.... well here it is retyped. haha

[Vonshroom]

Thinking more about it, the Lineholder and Marshal 2L would also be very good lance mates for an Enforcer. Especially from a militia or Mercenary standdpoint. Both mechs have STD engines which make them survivable, both have decent firepower that is mainly based on energy weapons, and both feature LRM's to exploit holes punched by an Enforcer. The Marshall carries machine guns for use against infantry and could reasonable be found in a mercenary unit or a Fedsuns unit working along the periphery border, or Cappie march.

[MarauderD]

5D Enforcers have the XL engine and with Single heat sinks. While I like Enforcers, that seems like a double whammy of mistakes. Somehow the Enforcer III seems more acceptable with the DHS to me.

[Getz]

5D Enforcers have the XL engine and with Single heat sinks. While I like Enforcers, that seems like a double whammy of mistakes. Somehow the Enforcer III seems more acceptable with the DHS to me.

Without the XL engine you can't get the speed boost and extra jump jet and going form 4/6/4 to 5/8/5 is no small thing.  The single heat sinks are certainly a mistake - but if you want to be fast, well armed and well armoured you've got no choice but to use an XL engine...

[MarauderD]

Without the XL engine you can't get the speed boost and extra jump jet and going form 4/6/4 to 5/8/5 is no small thing.  The single heat sinks are certainly a mistake - but if you want to be fast, well armed and well armoured you've got no choice but to use an XL engine...

Agreed, just saying that in 3069, I'd rather have an XL toting 6M than a 5D with those SHS.

[Vonshroom]

You guys are really onto something there. I would have loved to see an upgraded Enforcer using DHS, Endo and FF instead of what they went with. That would make it more survivable and still "modernize it" allowing for case, different loadout, etc.

[Daryk]

It gets pretty tight with both Endo and Ferro... Endo and DHS alone can get you an ER PPC, LB-10X (with 2 tons of ammo protected by CASE) and a Small Pulse Laser.

[(SMD)MadCow]

The Enforcer III is where it gets modernized, the 7D is pretty interesting.

[Challenger]

Without the XL engine you can't get the speed boost and extra jump jet and going form 4/6/4 to 5/8/5 is no small thing.  The single heat sinks are certainly a mistake - but if you want to be fast, well armed and well armoured you've got no choice but to use an XL engine...

I genuinely think that the speed boast was a mistake with the Enforcer

Ignoring for a moment that there are standard engine mechs with similar firepower and speed, (Starslayer, Griffin, Crab) IMO it made the mech too difficult for the average pilot to use properly. (NB pilot not player)

Making the mech faster but fragile more or less mandates keeping the speed up to survive and to keep the range open for the same reason. That pushes the to hit numbers for a average pilot up to 8+ as a minimum. Include enemy movement and a smattering of terrain and we are up to 11/12's as a rule. Works fine one on one, but in a larger game, it can easily make the Enforcer an irrelevance. Sure you could slow down to shoot more accurately, but if you do, why did you bother with the XL engine?

I honestly preferred the mini-Warhammer that was the 4R, it was guarantied to make its firepower count. I find the 5D either wastes its firepower or wastes its speed.

Challenger

[Vonshroom]

I genuinely think that the speed boast was a mistake with the Enforcer

Ignoring for a moment that there are standard engine mechs with similar firepower and speed, (Starslayer, Griffin, Crab) IMO it made the mech too difficult for the average pilot to use properly. (NB pilot not player)

Making the mech faster but fragile more or less mandates keeping the speed up to survive and to keep the range open for the same reason. That pushes the to hit numbers for a average pilot up to 8+ as a minimum. Include enemy movement and a smattering of terrain and we are up to 11/12's as a rule. Works fine one on one, but in a larger game, it can easily make the Enforcer an irrelevance. Sure you could slow down to shoot more accurately, but if you do, why did you bother with the XL engine?

I honestly preferred the mini-Warhammer that was the 4R, it was guarantied to make its firepower count. I find the 5D either wastes its firepower or wastes its speed.

Challenger

This....

Pretty much my exact thoughts on the "upgrades" to the 4R.

[Getz]

I genuinely think that the speed boast was a mistake with the Enforcer

Ignoring for a moment that there are standard engine mechs with similar firepower and speed, (Starslayer, Griffin, Crab) IMO it made the mech too difficult for the average pilot to use properly. (NB pilot not player)

Making the mech faster but fragile more or less mandates keeping the speed up to survive and to keep the range open for the same reason. That pushes the to hit numbers for a average pilot up to 8+ as a minimum. Include enemy movement and a smattering of terrain and we are up to 11/12's as a rule. Works fine one on one, but in a larger game, it can easily make the Enforcer an irrelevance. Sure you could slow down to shoot more accurately, but if you do, why did you bother with the XL engine?

I honestly preferred the mini-Warhammer that was the 4R, it was guarantied to make its firepower count. I find the 5D either wastes its firepower or wastes its speed.

Challenger

What can I say, this makes no sense to me.  The fault in the Enforcer 5D is the heatsinks, not the speed.

[Ruger]

What can I say, this makes no sense to me.  The fault in the Enforcer 5D is the heatsinks, not the speed.

The original Enforcer was a trooper...it fought as part of the line, and could loose a side torso and arm, and only loose half of its firepower, but it could stay in the fight if needed.

The 3050 upgrade to the Enforcer changed it to more of a skirmisher...it could no longer absorb the same amount of punishment as its parent design, as losing a side torso also means the 'Mech becomes a battle loss because its engine is destroyed.

Therefore, you need to be sure to not take hits that you could once take, which means you have to keep up your mobility (armor was not strengthened) to avoid the hits. This changes how the 'Mech functions in the game.

Ruger

[glitterboy2098]

i see the speed increase as part of a general trend at the time.. advanced tech was bringing a lot more fast mediums and heavies, and a 4/6 on anything smaller than a heavy really struggles when the average speed of the opposition goes up. an Enforcer would typically be seeing a lot of 5/8 and 6/9 mediums post-clans, many of them jumping, as well as more 5/8 heavies, and if it stayed at 4/6 Enforcers would no longer be able to do the jobs they were designed to fill. at least, not effectively.

[Mattlov]

The Enforcer, in almost all time lines, is the ultimate lance mate.  It isn't going to break and enemy line by itself, it isn't going to the the thing your opponent is scared of, and it isn't the focus of your own forces.  It is a team mate.  And a very strong one in that role.

Worst luck I've ever seen was an Enforcer moving through rubble, falling down, hitting that rear torso on the fall, and exploding.  Never shot, never even SAW the enemy, but completely dead anyway.  :D

[Vonshroom]

What can I say, this makes no sense to me.  The fault in the Enforcer 5D is the heatsinks, not the speed.

Getz,

I had posted this before, and I really think it outlines exactly the faults with the speed increase, sure, the heatsinks are a flub too, but personally the engine boost is what kills the design for me.

To me the Enforcer really loses a lot of its flavor after the introduction of 3050 tech and all of the new units leading up to the year 3069. Frankly after this point there are many better units than a 4R Enforcer, but it is still a solid design for a militia force. The 5D is in my opinion a worse version of the 4R. It does some things right, but it plugs in an XL engine that doesn't allow the mech to move fast enough to offset its new vulnerability. Yes, you might be able to stick me in with them STD engine cartel guys... but frankly STD engines make sense for "line" units. Which is in my opinion, what the Enforcer is intended to be. The Enforcer III proposes some unique new variants that I very much like, but still suffers from that XL engine. On front line medium designs, XL's aren't my cup of tea. Where an XL shines is when it gives a mech a very high level of maneuverability for its weight. 5/8/5 on a medium in 3069 doesn't fit the bill for "high level of maneuverability for its weight".

I make some exceptions to this rule for medium "line" designs that just outright work with XL engines, such as the Lynx, Bushwacker, Grim Reaper, or Shockwave in later eras. All of these designs bring something the "upgraded" Enforcer just doesn't bring to the table, raw damage output. In each case, these mechs move as fast as the upgraded Enforcer, are just as survivable (or more so) and can deal twice the amount of damage or more from good range. Allowing them to greatly contribute to the fight before they go down.

With all of this in mind, the Enforcer really only brings two things to the table in 3050+ games.

1. Cheaper, lighter playmate for heavier nasty units that need a little buddy
2. Member of a dedicated "flanker" lance that is going to use its decent firepower/speed ratio to outmaneuver other units

As stated by Mattlov, the Enforcer is the ultimate lance mate.

[Challenger]

i see the speed increase as part of a general trend at the time.. advanced tech was bringing a lot more fast mediums and heavies, and a 4/6 on anything smaller than a heavy really struggles when the average speed of the opposition goes up. an Enforcer would typically be seeing a lot of 5/8 and 6/9 mediums post-clans, many of them jumping, as well as more 5/8 heavies, and if it stayed at 4/6 Enforcers would no longer be able to do the jobs they were designed to fill. at least, not effectively.

I don't think the Enforcer needed the speed boast to do its job. Even in 3025 it was slow for a medium. But, its job wasn't to zip around with the Wolverines, its job was to stand in line next to the Warhammer because the plan called for two Warhammers but damn it I only have the one!

As Ruger said the 4R is a trooper. The 5D is a skirmisher, which is fine except if I upgrade my 4R to a 5D I now need to go buy another trooper mech to replace the Enforcer that can nolonger do the job I brought it to do in the first place!

Challenger

[Challenger]

What can I say, this makes no sense to me.  The fault in the Enforcer 5D is the heatsinks, not the speed.

In short my experience of cavalry/skirmisher mechs like the 5D is unless they have a veteran pilot, their fire is so inaccurate they might as well not be on the field.

Challenger

[Kidd]

I always preferred the Enforcer over the Centurion, mainly because of aesthetics but also because I don't much fancy LRMs.

Where an XL shines is when it gives a mech a very high level of maneuverability for its weight. 5/8/5 on a medium in 3069 doesn't fit the bill for "high level of maneuverability for its weight".

I make some exceptions to this rule for medium "line" designs that just outright work with XL engines, such as the Lynx, Bushwacker, Grim Reaper, or Shockwave in later eras. All of these designs bring something the "upgraded" Enforcer just doesn't bring to the table, raw damage output. In each case, these mechs move as fast as the upgraded Enforcer, are just as survivable (or more so) and can deal twice the amount of damage or more from good range. Allowing them to greatly contribute to the fight before they go down.

With all of this in mind, the Enforcer really only brings two things to the table in 3050+ games.

1. Cheaper, lighter playmate for heavier nasty units that need a little buddy
2. Member of a dedicated "flanker" lance that is going to use its decent firepower/speed ratio to outmaneuver other units

As stated by Mattlov, the Enforcer is the ultimate lance mate.

I see where you're getting at, but the examples you picked here aren't very convincing. Two of them are 5 tons heavier than the ENF-5D, and don't have the arguably 'deliberate' fault of the 2 SHS. The Bushwacker is functionally identical but for a pair of LRM-5s, the Shockwave's main claim to superiority is the RAC-5 which wasn't available to the 5D at the time, and the Grim Reaper is a ranged Mech that I wouldn't bet on in a close fight with the 5D. The kicker in the fight will be the 5D's jump jets, which it could use to get into better position to backstab and nullify these Mechs' torso-mounted weapons.

The main reason the Enforcer's upgrade doesn't look good is that it is a TRO 3050 monkey model and was quickly discarded in favour of the Enforcer IIIs, which would give those Mechs above a much tougher fight. In 3069 that's the Mech you ought to be looking at... and all said and done, the 5D is not the worst upgrade out there. Just ask a PNT-10K driver ::)

I don't think the Enforcer needed the speed boast to do its job. Even in 3025 it was slow for a medium. But, its job wasn't to zip around with the Wolverines, its job was to stand in line next to the Warhammer because the plan called for two Warhammers but damn it I only have the one!

As Ruger said the 4R is a trooper. The 5D is a skirmisher, which is fine except if I upgrade my 4R to a 5D I now need to go buy another trooper mech to replace the Enforcer that can nolonger do the job I brought it to do in the first place!

The Enforcer is a jack-of-all-trades, and such Jacks tend to become "troopers" by dint of not excelling at anything else. The real trooper of the AFFS's 3025 medium lineup is the Centurion, and that should be the one standing next to the Warhammer... if the Enforcer is standing and not making use of those jump-jets to close with the enemy, it's wasting those jumpers.

Its upgrades actually sort of switch places with the Centurion - post-Revival, 5/8 is the new "trooper" standard and Enforcer IIIs are now the troopers while it is the Centurion that gets the extra manoeuvreing boost up past 6/9 and more. A medium Mech running 4/6 in 3067 is not a "trooper", it's lunch ;D

[CrossfirePilot]

Funny thing about the Enforcer.  When I am stressed trying to fall asleep and not wanting to let my mind get too wrapped up in the days issues.  I always just think about being in a city fighting with an Enforcer.  Never anything else, and I don't even like them that much!

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, the Bushie has 5 tons on the Enforcer . . . the only real difference though is the DHS and instead of the Enforcer's JJ is those pair of LRM5s and MGs.  Not a huge fan of cav mechs jumping, that is just me, but that is where you get that difference coming in.  And with SHS, those JJs are a must for when you need to hold the triggers down for a bit.

[Getz]

Therefore, you need to be sure to not take hits that you could once take, which means you have to keep up your mobility (armor was not strengthened) to avoid the hits. This changes how the 'Mech functions in the game.

Ruger

Yes it was.  The 5D has 161 points of FF armour vs the 4R's 144 points of standard plate.

In my experience a medium mech with it's side torso stripped isn't long for this world irrespective of whether it has an XL engine or not.  Couple that with the ability to generate better defensive modifiers and in my experience (and historically I've used both variants a lot, the Enforcer is one of my very favourite mechs) the 5D is at least as survivable as the 4R, perhaps more so.

In short my experience of cavalry/skirmisher mechs like the 5D is unless they have a veteran pilot, their fire is so inaccurate they might as well not be on the field.

Challenger

Again, this makes absolutely no sense to me.  You get exactly the same attack modifiers jumping 5 as you did jumping 4, Same goes for walking 5 vs 4 or running 8 vs 6.  There is no circumstance where the extra speed makes your fire less accurate and there is one (walking 5 vs running 5) where your fire actually should be more accurate.

[Ruger]

Yes it was.  The 5D has 161 points of FF armour vs the 4R's 144 points of standard plate.

Oops...for some reason I was thinking it went down to 143 pts of armor...

 :-[

Ruger

[Challenger]

Again, this makes absolutely no sense to me.  You get exactly the same attack modifiers jumping 5 as you did jumping 4, Same goes for walking 5 vs 4 or running 8 vs 6.  There is no circumstance where the extra speed makes your fire less accurate and there is one (walking 5 vs running 5) where your fire actually should be more accurate.

Expected pilot behaviour changes.

With a 4/6/4 your probably not moving about too much, the jump jets in particularly are not really for use while shooting. Odds are you walk a lot.

With a 5/8/5, moving about more makes sense. In the Enforcer's case you've sacrificed toughness to get that speed (I appreciate our experiences diverge here) and you paid BV for that speed so if you don't use it your going to be outgunned by a slower opponent. Odds are you run a lot.

That extra +1 to hit is a huge deal for a regular pilot. At medium range, against a moderately mobile target (say +2 to hit) with even a single wood hex in the way, a running mech needs a 11 to hit. A walking mech is twice as likely to hit its target, a stationary one 3 times as likely.

A 5D can slow to a walk to engage, but then you are wasting your speed advantage and making yourself more vulnerable. That is my complaint with this type of mech, with a regular pilot you are given a choice of using your speed or using your firepower, you can't use both effectively at the same time.

A veteran pilot changes that somewhat.

Challenger

[MarauderD]

The 5D still seems like a challenging mech to use well, because you can only. Use your ER LL 2 out of 3 rounds before needing a cooling break. I'd rather the Enforcer III or 7D for this reason alone.

[Vonshroom]

I see where you're getting at, but the examples you picked here aren't very convincing. Two of them are 5 tons heavier than the ENF-5D, and don't have the arguably 'deliberate' fault of the 2 SHS. The Bushwacker is functionally identical but for a pair of LRM-5s, the Shockwave's main claim to superiority is the RAC-5 which wasn't available to the 5D at the time, and the Grim Reaper is a ranged Mech that I wouldn't bet on in a close fight with the 5D. The kicker in the fight will be the 5D's jump jets, which it could use to get into better position to backstab and nullify these Mechs' torso-mounted weapons.

Kidd, I too see what you are getting at, but the mechs I listed have incredible advantages over the Enforcer in 3050s-3060's play.

The Pair of LRM 5's and machine guns give the Bushwacker an incredible tactical superiority over the Enforcer 5D. Allowing it twice as much long range firepower potential while also allowing for laying of minefields with Thunders. Machine Guns allow for good use against infantry, but in a mech on mech dual, sure, they are dead weight, and liabilities at that. Still, I don't see how the Enforcer 5D is better?

Fun discussion guys, Ironic that a thread I started with nothing but appreciation for the machine in 3025 has turned into a bit of a bashing on it post 3050.

I really do like the direction the Enforcer III went, and feel that it is a true upgrade to the design.

Funny thing about the Enforcer.  When I am stressed trying to fall asleep and not wanting to let my mind get too wrapped up in the days issues.  I always just think about being in a city fighting with an Enforcer.  Never anything else, and I don't even like them that much!

Ironically the other night I had a dream I was piloting an Enforcer in a city. It was raining, and I was trying to find the rest of my lance.

[Vonshroom]

I also personally really like units with fairly simplistic load outs.

AC/10
LLaser
Slaser for backup

really doesn't get too much more simple than that. From an in universe standpoint it makes more sense too. Having a weapon for every situation or a slew of different types of weapons may be a benefit, but under battlefield stress it seems to me having a more simplistic weapons array consisting of only one or two weapons or types of weapons makes sense.

I know I wouldn't want to have to toggle through a bunch of weapons groups in a pinch. Enforcer seems intuitive and smart to me. Anyone who has played MWO probably agrees with me on this.

Also the 4R especially seems well suited as a training mech, or a good mech for first time mechwarriors fresh from the academy. It is very cheap, durable, relatively common and should be simplistic to use. See my above comments. For a training tool, the limited ammo will teach making each shot count and ammo conservation, and heat isn't going to be too much of a concern. Which is good for a newbie, as they are more likely to make a rookie mistake like overheating too much. One could learn a lot with an Enforcer.

[Rorke]

I have used it a great deal over the years. 

The 3025 era R is as stated previously, delightfully solid and forgiving.  It does
really shine with Centurions, Dervishes and heavies in company to it.

It does become fiddly, when the timeline advances.  The D is yet another example
of a very odd time for mech designs.  It can and will shine, but it's HS limitation
will always hold it back.  Whereas the III, both 3060s main variants are delightful
to use and properly designed.

[CrossfirePilot]

I always found that the Enforcer needed about 4 more rounds for the AC, even when I am careful and shooting on 8 or less, it still runs out when I need about 2-3 more hits to put the other guy down.

[Vonshroom]

I always found that the Enforcer needed about 4 more rounds for the AC, even when I am careful and shooting on 8 or less, it still runs out when I need about 2-3 more hits to put the other guy down.

Interesting, the 10 rounds never really bothered me. I tend to have one to three rounds left over. It really depends on how you are playing and what you are playing against. Usually the Heaviest thing on the table is only 75 tons or so, and anywhere from 1-4 mechs.

Anyone have experience fielding multiple Enforcer's together?

[(SMD)MadCow]

Anyone have experience fielding multiple Enforcer's together?

I'm not allowed to anymore...

[Kovax]

It just seems like a 60 ton design with the engine from an Ost-something-or-other or Quickdraw might have been the better choice, giving it a 5/8 profile instead of 4/6/4.  The Hatchet isn't "bad", it's just not something that I find nearly as useful for the tonnage it takes on a slower design as it would be on something that can get in your face in a hurry.  Making it 5(10)/8 with MASC would be scarier yet.

[Oops, wrong thread]

[Vonshroom]

It just seems like a 60 ton design with the engine from an Ost-something-or-other or Quickdraw might have been the better choice, giving it a 5/8 profile instead of 4/6/4.  The Hatchet isn't "bad", it's just not something that I find nearly as useful for the tonnage it takes on a slower design as it would be on something that can get in your face in a hurry.  Making it 5(10)/8 with MASC would be scarier yet.

Is this perhaps meant for the Axman thread?  ;D