Night Fight and zell

[epic]

Curious about how Clan levels of honour and zell work during a night fight.  Playing double blind, and both sides have just shot out their searchlights.  Now everyone can't see each other.

Just General Melee when it comes to night-fighting?

[jimdigris]

Search lights became obsolete back in the 1980s. You can rely on 21st century night vision for all of your night fighting needs.

[marauder648]

Search lights became obsolete back in the 1980s. You can rely on 21st century night vision for all of your night fighting needs.

Yep, a Mech would have a huge range of IR and night time viewing stuff that would probably make anything we've got today look like the gun sights on a WW1 Mk IV heavy tank.  If they are fighting at night, they'll be able to see and ID you without any problems.  The IS would probably have similar but less capable systems for their Mechs.

[epic]

Not as per sensor rules and double blind

[Vition2]

While there should be plenty of passive and active sensors on battlemechs, there has always been a hint that there is so much interference given off by others in the battle to render them less that useful - thus the "reason" lasers and autocannon don't automatically hit their target at such short ranges as combat in the setting takes place.

I suspect regular rules of engagement apply, but that often zelbrigen ends up failing.  Under ideal dueling circumstances, I suspect dueling 'mechs would attempt to stay in line of sight with each other in order to more fully gain honor and glory - this inherently gives an advantage to larger machines as terrain is less useful in such situations.  Other options are making sure the area is expansive enough that upon pairing up the duelists can separate themselves to more likely only come in contact with each other.

Assuming that you are likely having to run this on a smallish enough playing field (2x2ish), the separation option is probably too much.  Staying in line of sight or a more general combat are probably better options in that situation

[glitterboy2098]

honestly we have enough examples in the fiction of even hard line zell followers using concealment during battle that i don't think losing LOS itself should automatically break zell.. it seems that intentions count. someone who breaks zell to hide or run away breaks zell. someone who breaks LOS to get a better position to fight from? doesn't. and the opposing pilot seems to give benefit of the doubt.

[Weirdo]

Also, contrary to overwhelming evidence, Clanners are often not actually idiots. If you try to accuse someone of cowardly hiding because nobody could see anything, there's a very real chance you'll be laughed off the playground.

[epic]

Yup, not trying to say that anyone is an idiot.  However, with complete loss of LOS, and then also not knowing where the enemy is, but then a new unit pops up because of fog of war, it seems like a night fight would devolve into a General Melee very quick. 

[Weirdo]

I really need to take a look at the double blind rules sometime. Losing LOS completely just because the sun goes down sounds really dodgy.

[epic]

I really need to take a look at the double blind rules sometime. Losing LOS completely just because the sun goes down sounds really dodgy.

Some night fights have 5 hex visual limits.  You can spot out further with a good sensor roll, but... that's on a round by round basis. 

[Weirdo]

This is where having a reasonably tough support vehicle that mounts a bunch of searchlights comes in handy. VA should have more than a few. :)

[JadedFalcon]

Or just include some artillery like Clan Thors or Huitzilopochtlis in the bid and drop illumination rounds where necessary, quiaff? And they aren't even subject to zellbrigen.

Then there's the advantage of using a NARC variant like the Summoner B or Kit Fox D. Makes it easier to keep track of which one is yours.

[Weirdo]

That is interesting....since flare rounds don't actually hurt anything(even indirectly, like NARC), so they truly not violate zell?

[TigerShark]

Whatever is best for your Clan's warrior to win, that is what the rule will be. Zellbrigen doesn't have a manual. :) And the rules will always be bent in favor of the winner's claim.

Warrior A: "You used a dezgra tactic to win! Physical combat is Inner Sphere!"

Warrior B: "Your genes are certainly deficient, but are you blind as well? Did you not know we were fighting at night? Perhaps you'd prefer we fire in random directions until luck prevails?

A warrior trains for every environment. And a true warrior makes no excuses."

[glitterboy2098]

Also, contrary to overwhelming evidence, Clanners are often not actually idiots. If you try to accuse someone of cowardly hiding because nobody could see anything, there's a very real chance you'll be laughed off the playground.

especially given that turns are only 10 seconds.. someone vanishes for 10-20 seconds in a battle, it looks really idiotic to go all



now, if they don't return after 6 turns (60 seconds/1 minute)? then you can start getting suspicious.