The Changing Faces of Boots on the Ground

[Col Toda]

Infantry and Battle Armor . Different ERAs different absolute numbers reduced fielded to get the same results . With the resurgence of Battle Armor use as time moves along the physical number of troops goes down . First with the elite special forces in the mid to late 3050s to armored exoskeletons in the early 3060s . When I had a choice of fielding a platoon of foot infantry combat engineers of 28 men or 3 squads of engineers in Gopher Exoskeletons I get both better protected and more productive troops . Hell regular army units in police exoskeletons lets you eliminate  1/3 of the troops you need to carry to get the same job done . A standard platoon of foot infantry dies with 4 machine gun hits on average killing 28 guys those same 4 machine gun hits kill at most 2 guys in exoskeletons and light battle armor and one at most for medium or heavier battle armor . What if any radical changes did you do or see in boots on the ground by ERA ? My combat engineer unit upgraded to Gopher AEX as soon as possible . For me the big transition date is 3062 . Was it any different for you?

[Ruger]

I would personally love to see the job of the majority of the old PBI's (taking and holding ground, doing the main fighting, etc.) going to power armor equipped units, while those troopers using only body armor are used for security and other minimal danger positions.

Yes, I am a fan of Starship Troopers, especially the last two CGI movies, Invasion and Traitor of Mars (which shows one of the best examples I've seen so far of jump capable troopers...and actually had Rico telling his troops to move out "On the Bounce!")...

However, both Traitor of Mars, as well as the old "Roughnecks: The Starship Trooper Chronicles" did show one extreme downside of using power armor/battle armor on the field, at least as they, and BattleTech, have the units designed...namely, lack of power endurance...with a limited amount of power, you are limiting how long your troopers can last in the field...granted, they are also limited on things like ammo and food, but ammo can be conserved (or you just use your enemy's weapons you capture) and food can be foraged for on many planets, so they are not quite as limiting as power for your power/battle armor...

Still, I would like to see more units turning primarily to power armor for their former PBI's...

Ruger

[Daryk]

One interesting thing to note, at least for combat engineers and logistics units, is that (unarmored) exoskeletons never went extinct.  Even 3025 units could use them if they can afford them.

[Colt Ward]

Battle Armor and Exoskeletons are not going to reduce the numbers of personnel needed for their primary task- taking & holding ground.  While it is a multiplier in their combat power/effectiveness it does not reduce the need for the 4 guys standing near the intersection guarding occupied territory . . . or the 4 guys two blocks down the road at the next intersection.  Or guarding a power substation.

Properly trained, soldiers actually act as their own modifier.  I think it was a USMC study that compared two individuals working in the same area vs a pair that were operating as a team, the trained pair performed much better than the two individuals-  IIRC geometric vs arithmetic.

Ruger, one thing I think you might be overlooking in the comparison is that BA is supposed to be able to plug into any fusion powered vehicle to recharge.  Probably ICE too but I remember the conversation about Fusion as to why that engine would be superior for a mechanized (not Mech) BA unit, their APC/ISV/IFVs probably have outlets in the troop bays.

[Ruger]

Battle Armor and Exoskeletons are not going to reduce the numbers of personnel needed for their primary task- taking & holding ground.  While it is a multiplier in their combat power/effectiveness it does not reduce the need for the 4 guys standing near the intersection guarding occupied territory . . . or the 4 guys two blocks down the road at the next intersection.  Or guarding a power substation.

Properly trained, soldiers actually act as their own modifier.  I think it was a USMC study that compared two individuals working in the same area vs a pair that were operating as a team, the trained pair performed much better than the two individuals-  IIRC geometric vs arithmetic.

I forgot to mention that I favor squads (fire teams actually) of 5 troopers for power armored infantry (squads would be 2 fire teams, for 10 men total)...given that my power armor designs tend to favor increasing ground speed and jump mobility (and maximizing their limited armor), while giving them mission equipment space over mounting support style weapons, my troopers still tend to be armed as a normal PBI squad would be armed...mostly with some kind of rifles (whether it's assault rifles or pulse rifles, or something else, and one man with a support weapon...

So, I'm not really advocating reducing numbers all that much...  ;)

Ruger, one thing I think you might be overlooking in the comparison is that BA is supposed to be able to plug into any fusion powered vehicle to recharge.  Probably ICE too but I remember the conversation about Fusion as to why that engine would be superior for a mechanized (not Mech) BA unit, their APC/ISV/IFVs probably have outlets in the troop bays.

Good point, and that will undoubtedly help, but should that vehicle be taken out, or should the infantry need to go somewhere it can't...

Ruger

[2ndAcr]

 When I run campaigns after 3054, I favor 24 man platoons with 4 squads of 6. I then have 4 platoons per company and 4 companies per battalion. It does limit my choices on transport though.

 I have never liked the base 3 setup. I prefer a base 4 makeup. My jump infantry use 21 man platoons but I have 4 platoons per company and 4 companies per battalion.

[worktroll]

Something I get from making my mini battalions, which is probably closer to the real world, but which doesn't feature in 'pure' board or megamek games: transport.

Yes, BA are tougher than infantry, and move faster, but they're strategically as slow. Between battery pack life, operator endurance (do you really think most BA can jump continuously for hours without getting worn out?), and the paucity of all-omni units in most IS armies, all the problems of getting BA into contact on a game map are magnified when trying to move them in the real world.

Then there's the lack of dedicated BA movers until more or less late Jihad. Yes, you've got the Karnov ... but while you can move a typical company of leg infantry in two Heavy APCs, a BA squad demands its own carrier. And anything that had 3 tons to carry an infantry platoon need not apply.

Now when making my units, for the sake of economy, I cheat. I think it's fair to say that quad BA don't need their own transports, unless (like the Sloth) they're massively slow. I can see a Fenrir, with the operator sitting in a chair, bounding long for hours. And I can also see 'ordinary' units having mixes of infantry & BA in their support units. But if you want all BA, all the time, you have to take all the transports.

Which, in logistical terms, adds size, complexity, and numbers. Convoys of hover APCs are great in terms of getting those BA to the strategic objective before the 'other guy', but need to be escorted lest they be taken as a target of opportunity. More so with VTOL-deployed BA.

And when faced with the choice - "Sir, we've met BA production targets for the quarter. Both the APC and 'Mech lines are demanding priority. Who gets the extra cash?", I'm guessing we all know which way an IS general is likely to choose.

W.

[glitterboy2098]

and to be honest, even in forces that do have lots of omni's (or use lots of magclamp BA), that still isn't going to be a very viable way yo deploy them stratgically. can you imagine hanging from a jostling moving mech for hours at a time?

[Challenger]

Battle Armor and Exoskeletons are not going to reduce the numbers of personnel needed for their primary task- taking & holding ground.  While it is a multiplier in their combat power/effectiveness it does not reduce the need for the 4 guys standing near the intersection guarding occupied territory . . . or the 4 guys two blocks down the road at the next intersection.  Or guarding a power substation.

For run off the mill ‘guarding’ stuff I’d agree, you need a minimum number of guards regardless how well equipped.

But, in ‘conventional’ warfare, a BA platoon kicks out the firepower of a infantry company and will likely prove harder to kill. In that case if a point objective warrants an infantry company, why couldn’t I substitute a BA platoon?

Challenger

[Challenger]

For me the big transition date is 3062 . Was it any different for you?

Post Jihad for me. I spent a lot of time adjusting to the introduce of more effective BA and anti infantry weaponry by massively increasing the number of heavy support lasers in my infantry units. The firepower and range advantage somewhat offset the lack of protection.

However, the casualty rates I started to see convinced me to move towards BA where possible.

Challenger

[Colt Ward]

Ruger, most of the number stuff was to Col Toda's advocating BA as a way to reduce number of personnel, not to you.  I use 6 man squads for my BA and a 4 squad platoon, a 4 platoon company . . . so yeah, my BA and infantry formations in my mercs would be considered 'heavy' rather than the BT norm.

And worktroll, its not just forming them up as minis . . . take a simple timed land nav course over rough terrain, lol you will be a believer in some form of transport for the troops- or even just haul the heavy machine gun or automatic grenade launcher from the armory (in the basement) the couple of blocks to the motorpool so you can load it on the vehicle.  You want the firepower for infantry, you need something to get it to the engagement zone.  Also for emergencies . . . well, I would imagine the garrison CO knows where they can requisition some heavy frame transport to move that BA if they need to when the time comes- at least COs with a decent staff & contingency planning.  My wife does not believe me someone is paid to sit in the Pentagon and plan out a response to alien invasions & zombie swarms along with other more likely scenarios.

Challenger, b/c if the book answer is to attack the objective with a company of infantry- you want to bring two if you can.  IMO it will also get into synergy . . . you want BA and some regular infantry following them, b/c no matter what there are going to be places the BA cannot go . . . heck, there are places normal infantry cannot go- its why you need tunnel rats.

[AlphaMirage]

I use heavy six man PA(L) squads for front line combat, most of my custom designed PA(L)s just carry support infantry weapons.  They move faster than foot troops (typically 2 Ground and Jump), hit harder, and have more staying power; some have Mag-Clamps and ride on twenty tonners (Fireball being the best, typically Wasp for budget reasons, Locust is good as well), that way a lance of lights carries a platoon of super infantry and provides solid "heavy" firepower.  Others ride in the larger APCS (a six man PA(L) platoon weighs 3 tons just like a platoon of foot troops).  That combination seems to work quite well in my admittedly limited experience. 

I'm of the opinion that in a Battletech Map Battle there are three things worth bringing them in for, capturing enemy troops for intelligence purposes, sweeping buildings of light infantry in urban terrain, and sabotage.  All of these things don't require much lingering and the unit should be out as quickly as they were sent in.

In my OP I have most of the other "infantry" just be military police type units with light or medium vehicles for support but these guys are not going to fight Battlemechs unless they are committing some atrocity.  They can deal with other soldiers and man guard posts in the rear line to keep spies out.  I feel that is a more appropriate duty for light infantry in this hyper dangerous world.

[Scotty]

I'd be 100% okay if most conventional infantry in BattleTech were replaced by PA(L) squads with a point of armor and probably an LRR and speed improvements.  This is almost wholly related to my dislike of how abstracted the conventional infantry rules are, but it'd also fit my preferred aesthetic a bit more.

[Major Headcase]

   Does Battletech BA incorporate built in med capabilities? There is an Ebook series I love called the Crimson World series, about future BA equipped US Marines (mostly). And the armour they wear incorporates an auto-doc device that feeds them intravenously and injects meds and painkillers in case of injury, - and importantly- powerful stims to keep them functioning for days if needed. The superior training and power of the suits means that even outnumbered significantly by regular line infantry, the BA Marines can just do so much more for so much longer, that their effect on a campaign is exponential.
   I'd like to see how the training side of Btech BA works. Are they just regular soldiers stuffed in armour? Or is there specific hard mission and endurance training with it?

[Scotty]

The answer to that, as it is with most things in BattleTech, is "it depends".  Elementals certainly go through grueling training to use their suits.  It's probable that Inner Sphere major powers have dedicated battle armor specialization and qualification courses.

It's entirely possible that minor powers, Periphery powers, and the odd bandit/pirate that ends up with a few suits just stuffs whoever wants it most and/or pulls rank.

[worktroll]

My wife does not believe me someone is paid to sit in the Pentagon and plan out a response to alien invasions & zombie swarms along with other more likely scenarios.

CASE NIGHTMARE BLUE is the Lovecraftian singularity: the stars are coming right and we can't prevent this from happening.

CASE NIGHTMARE RED is the alien invasion scenario. Subcases: RED HARE is the plan for what to do if and when Martian death tripods land on Horsell Common; RED HORSEMAN is the official Army plan for dealing with the Apocalypse of St. John the Divine. But RED RABBIT is invasion by armies from Middle Earth ...

CASE NIGHTMARE YELLOW is the hard-take-off rapture-of-the-nerds singularity, with added tentacles, because you just know that nothing goes better with CASE NIGHTMARE BLUE like a simultaneous Vingean singularity taking hold in the age of the Internet Of Things That Go Bump In The Night.

There are a number of other NIGHTMARE cases for which remediation protocols exist. Viral SETI signals. Weaponized memes – Rickrolling didn’t come out of nowhere, you know. Lunatic cultists waking up GOD GAME BLACK, whatever the hell that is. (There’s always some idiot who thinks that after the revolution they’ll be the one sitting on top of the hill of corpses, dining on caviar served out of a bowl made from a chromed baby’s skull.)

[Tymers Realm]

But RED RABBIT is invasion by armies from Middle Earth ...

You mean there's an actual response plan for a scenario for the set-up for Gate?
Dear F-ing gawd...

I'm not sure if I should be impressed or out-right scared.

[RunandFindOut]

You mean there's an actual response plan for a scenario for the set-up for Gate?
Dear F-ing gawd...

I'm not sure if I should be impressed or out-right scared.

Teaching how to build good plans for military operations and contingencies is important.  So you kind of have to keep them doing it to get good and stay good.  But when dealing with militaries the size of a major power you start running into situations where it's counterproductive to have them keep making plans for the same set of most probable contingencies.  And on top of that it fosters inflexibility of thought.  So you both need to give them variety so they don't get bored or become stale in their planning, as well as the pointlessness of having a hundred thousand plans for each of the couple hundred most likely scenarios.

So you start interspersing plans for things that are outwardly fantastic but can also act as stand-ins for other possibilities it's not politically favorable to openly plan for.  As well as plans that are entirely fantastic and not really good stand-ins but have unique aspects that will help keep the planners thinking creatively by forcing them to come up with new solutions.

[worktroll]

And not from the lands of fiction, Plan Orange, the Canadian plan to invade the US.

We'll apologise, you'll enjoy it O0

[guardiandashi]

there were several novels I remember reading, the actual Heinlein starship troopers, where the suits had I want to say ~30-60 hours of battery charge before you started running out of power.

Path of the fury (expanded version In fury born) by david weber where the "cadre" 100% power armor trained and the Marines/army had a MOS for battle armor, where the power armor were something akin to Omni mechs in that depending on the "plan" determined the loadouts you packed.  heavy weapons loadouts would allow for the packing of things like coliape's (sp) in practice miniguns/autocannon with crazy fire rates (and ammo consumption) plasma cannon horrendious power consumption and similar where the ammo for the weapons takes up the majority of the loadout, so the power supplies and other consumables were limited, to "light" configs where the armor wasn't armed that much more than a conventional infantry but they had crazy endurance because of being able to dedicate more of their load capacity for consumables and sensors.

and another old novel "armor" I cannot remember who the author was.

or way back in the day... "the sand wars" series by Charles Ingrid where there were battlearmor that had power packs, and also had solar collectors, that while they would take "forever" to actually charge up a suit could at least slow down the battery consumption enough that it was worth installing them.  the whole series is about the last survivor of a war where he was in an evac transport that was damaged and lost, and he somehow slapped the right control in his cryo pod to go onto "emergency power" and no one else managed it.  of course corruption mismanagement etc, and he is 30-60 years younger than his contemporaries because of the coldsleep.

[glitterboy2098]

and another old novel "armor" I cannot remember who the author was.

John Steakley was the author. he wrote it after reading starship troopers, and wishing heinlein had done more writing about the actual combat, or the psychological effects of intense warfare. (though to be fair, Mr. Steakley wrote his in the late70's-early80's after the vietnam war, while Heinlein was writing in 1950's before said war really kicked off. it was a different time)

starship troopers also had power limits as a factor in some of the battles towards the end.. it just wasn't made a huge plot point.

[SteelRaven]

I would put Battle armor in it's own category, between the standard infantry and the armored vehicles. While I get the logic of making Power Armor standard issue, don't think it will be. The grunt with the slug thrower will always be cheaper option thus the most common option.

Battle Armor has left a lasting impression on the BTU and now have become arguably just a valuable as Battlemechs.       

[Col Toda]

David Weber's In fury born all soldiers had some level Cyber interface . What made the Cadre so special is the could multitask 3 processors at the same time .  In A
Time of War every training package had ideal characteristics minimums before the military would decide if it was cost effective to train  All military had basic training but Battle Armor troops had the highest physical requirements to train in .So while I can envision all infantry get some battle armor trainings unless you have what it takes the standard solder should be issued AEX not full battle armor . Normal Infantry at regular check points makes sense in a fluid temporary situation but in permanent or long term situation would have AEX with sensor mission equipment . These long term check points or pill boxes would have power and /or life support umbilical  system not to expend on board systems.

[Major Headcase]

  Is the exoskeleton and AEX you guys are mentioning like the powered harnesses from the T. Cruise movie, Live, Die, Repeat?

[glitterboy2098]

  Is the exoskeleton and AEX you guys are mentioning like the powered harnesses from the T. Cruise movie, Live, Die, Repeat?

probably more like the Mjolnir armor used by Spartans in Halo, or the armor used by the Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers: Invasion

basically what battletech would call PAL or light BA.
though in some of those settings, the tech levels mean it might be close to Iron Man.
though it is possible some are bigger and more akin to Appleseed's landmates (medium to assault suits in BT's BA scales) Heinlein's Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers the novel actually used a suit that was more Landmate sized, loaded down with a lot of firepower and mobility aids (like jumpjet type systems)


the Cruise movie (which btw, is actually named Edge of Tomorrow.. "live die repeat' is just its tagline.) is actually very atypical for power armor in that it doesn't actually have armor. most powered armor is much more like the elemental suits in battletech.. full environmental body armor-suits with motor assist limbs of some kind.

[Col Toda]

AEX tends to be in vehicle Annex support vehicle TRO

[The_Livewire]

A couple random thoughts...

David Drake's Hammer's Slammers had their combat infantry on one man skimmers (so hover mechanized?) and they made a point of mentioning for long runs the skimmers could link to Combat cars/tanks to draw power, so I assume Omni-mechs/dedicated transport vehicles can do the same, both for battle armor and for any energy weapons standard PBI have.

Also I remember the Infiltrator II can lock itself in position to improve it's sniper capabilities.  I'd assume BA could do something similar for long trips holding on to something.  Grab the handhold, lock them in place, power them down and 'relax' in your tin can.

As to PBIs... I can see three tiers of infantry developing into the dark ages if not before.  Maybe four.

Tier 1: Battle armor infantry.  Dropped into the thick of it, the 'glorious' position.  kind of like how Mechwarriors were supposed to be seen, a cut above.

Tier 2: PBI, outfited in the best PBI gear and 'standard' battletech infantry.  Some of the more cynical ones likely look at their battle armor counterparts as 'fire magnets'
      Tier 2a: Anti-Mech PBI.  Either not cut out for Battle Armor, or just not able to get any, these are more specialized.  I lump them in with tier 2, but might be worth looking at on their own.

Tier 3: Successor State National Guard.*  These are the 'green' infantry, they don't get the top of the line equipment, but they're not expected to be in an attack.  These are the ones that come in later.  So they're keeping the peace on newly occupied worlds while the new  government sets up.  They're also likely the ones helping rebuild all the stuff tier 1-2 broke, and as a result are more likely to build ties with the communities over time.  They're also the ones shipped to massive natural disasters, like the US' own state national guard.




*No I'm not meaning to disparage the RL National Guard and Army Reserves.  Gods know enough of them have seen real combat in the past 15+ years.  Just using the term as an example.

[Daryk]

*snip*
the Cruise movie (which btw, is actually named Edge of Tomorrow.. "live die repeat' is just its tagline.) is actually very atypical for power armor in that it doesn't actually have armor. most powered armor is much more like the elemental suits in battletech.. full environmental body armor-suits with motor assist limbs of some kind.

They actually changed the name of the movie when they released it to DVD.

As far as grueling training, the construction rules have a steep "training" cost tacked on to every suit you design.  That plus the high physical attribute requirements in AToW (previously noted) seem to indicate that the training is indeed difficult.

[RoundTop]

And not from the lands of fiction, Plan Orange, the Canadian plan to invade the US.

We'll apologise, you'll enjoy it O0

You mean Operation Syrup? sssshhh. we already had one security breach when it was published in Canadian Bacon.

[Challenger]

Challenger, b/c if the book answer is to attack the objective with a company of infantry- you want to bring two if you can.  IMO it will also get into synergy . . . you want BA and some regular infantry following them, b/c no matter what there are going to be places the BA cannot go . . . heck, there are places normal infantry cannot go- its why you need tunnel rats.

One of the things we do have to consider is the small size of BT armies. If an objective warrants a single company, that is all it is likely to get, the second company (if it even exists) is probably already tasked to do something else. If you can get away with deploying a battalion of BA in the place of a regiment of infantry, that will be a very attractive proposition to a general with only a limited number of dropships available.

That said, I came to the same conclusion about IS BA platoons being too small. I tend to use 28 suit platoons, but with 3 platoons to a company and 3 companies to a battalion. Gives you roughly the same number of suits overall, but more resilience in individual platoons. Plus imagining a stag rota for a harbour area with only 16 trooper in it makes me want to cry a little.

I think you might be right about needing the 2nd line infantry, you certainly don't want to waste your expensive elite infantry guarding rear areas. My concern with bringing that 2nd line infantry anywhere near the front line, is they will die in droves if confronted by enemy BA.

Challenger