Enhanced LRMs... What?

[Tymers Realm]

So I've been looking at this thread in the Mech Designs section. It's a 75 tonner going 4/6/0 with two Artemis IV equipped Enhanced LRM-20s, and that's it.

And to be quite honest, I really don't see the benefit in Enhanced LRM systems. Yea, having minimum range of a standard PPC is great and all. I just don't feel the additional 1 to 2 tons and 1 to 4 crits is justified.

Can someone rationalize this for me?

[Scotty]

No.  It's a terrible piece of equipment that has no niche.  The number of situations where you have the ability to take better LRMs and you can't just pick up some Clan LRMs at slightly greater expense for being better in literally every way imaginable and then some is vanishingly small considering that NLRMs are still advanced and largely experimental tech and Clan LRMs have been around for 300 years.

[JadeHellbringer]

No.  It's a terrible piece of equipment that has no niche.  The number of situations where you have the ability to take better LRMs and you can't just pick up some Clan LRMs at slightly greater expense for being better in literally every way imaginable and then some is vanishingly small considering that NLRMs are still advanced and largely experimental tech and Clan LRMs have been around for 300 years.

Hard to argue any of it. Extended LRMs? Definitely- a tough weapon to love, but has a definite role and advantages to cover its (severe) disadvantages. Enhanced? Absolute trash- not all weapons can be top-notch stuff though. Like the heavy MG and Ultra AC-5, some weapons just aren't that great compared to other options. The reduced minimum range is handy, for sure, but not enough to justify the added weight.

[Sartris]

just use the hotloaded LRMs rule. the saved weight over NLRMs can be used to add more short-range weapons

[Scotty]

There are very, very few weapons that I consider to be genuine wastes of page space.  The NLRM is one of them.  The game would be improved if the design(s?) using them had instead been something else or using something else.  It is, without exaggeration, the epitome of everything I despise about new equipment requiring a downside in order to justify it not instantly propagating as a replacement to old tech.

Imagine how universally derided the ER Large Laser would be if it also cost 7 tons and 3 crits.  That's basically the NLRM.

[Tymers Realm]

The reduced minimum range is handy, for sure, but not enough to justify the added weight.

Actually, its the added crits (especially on the NLRM-20) that really head scratches. Four added crits for that reduced minimum range? And then adding a Artemis IV on top of it? That's what really makes me question about this system. Nothing to me justifies that.

[YingJanshi]

There are very, very few weapons that I consider to be genuine wastes of page space.  The NLRM is one of them.  The game would be improved if the design(s?) using them had instead been something else or using something else.  It is, without exaggeration, the epitome of everything I despise about new equipment requiring a downside in order to justify it not instantly propagating as a replacement to old tech.

Imagine how universally derided the ER Large Laser would be if it also cost 7 tons and 3 crits.  That's basically the NLRM.

I don't know, I like that there are dead end technologies. It adds flavor to the universe.

Then again, I don't actually play much, my interaction with the universe anymore is strictly reading. So suboptimal units and weapons isn't a problem for me.

[Jim1701]

I don't know, I like that there are dead end technologies. It adds flavor to the universe.

Then again, I don't actually play much, my interaction with the universe anymore is strictly reading. So suboptimal units and weapons isn't a problem for me.

Dead end technologies belong in fluff, not on cannon designs.  That's just annoying.

[Kit deSummersville]

Dead end technologies belong in fluff, not on cannon designs.  That's just annoying.

I know, every tenth design has them!

[TigerShark]

This was done correctly when iATMs were published. They didn't cost double the weight or add heat -- They were simply a better system with more BV. And it really makes no sense how an improved arming mechanism in the missile itself would lead to a much bigger launcher.

Heat-Seeking LRMs already did this concept and did it better by keeping the missiles available to normal LRMs but cutting the bin size in 1/2.

[YingJanshi]

Dead end technologies belong in fluff, not on cannon designs.  That's just annoying.

The irony being that if they were just fluff there'd be people clamoring for stats for them.

nLRMs really only have a tiny window where they make sense: at the height of the Clan Invasion when the Houses are looking for anything that will level the playing field against the Clans & also during the middle of the Jihad when any weapons was being scrounged up to throw at the Blakies. Yeah, after the Jihad it doesn't make sense that they were be put on any production grade units.

[Jellico]

This was done correctly when iATMs were published. They didn't cost double the weight or add heat -- They were simply a better system with more BV. And it really makes no sense how an improved arming mechanism in the missile itself would lead to a much bigger launcher.

iATMs work because they are very strictly quarantined away from the main game. While we would all love BV to be perfect it isn't. The squeals about Clantech are bad enough. Just imagine the squeals about double Clantech.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

Yeah, after the Jihad it doesn't make sense that they were be put on any production grade units.

To be fair, I can remember only one production-grade unit -- Manticore II. It could be that I don't remember some 'Mech variants that have them.

[TigerShark]

iATMs work because they are very strictly quarantined away from the main game. While we would all love BV to be perfect it isn't. The squeals about Clantech are bad enough. Just imagine the squeals about double Clantech.

If a piece of tech seems grossly unfair, then that means the numerical value assigned to that system is wrong. The system not being perfect isn't an excuse to not change the system. In fact, it's the opposite.

As it goes with NLRM, there's a reason this thread was made: The value is wrong. Both their tonnage and critical spaces are being arbitrarily altered without any corresponding change to its value. People tend to notice when things are not quite right. lol

[Sartris]

To be fair, I can remember only one production-grade unit -- Manticore II. It could be that I don't remember some 'Mech variants that have them.

there are a few units from TRO Prototypes that iirc are fluffed as emerging production units

Heavy NLRM carrier
Ontos HEAT
Hunter (Amphibious)

besides the Manticore II, zero canon units use the system after 3085. It's joined NARC and iNARC in a group of advanced technologies that have essentially been abandoned save a few examples that pop up here and there.

[Col Toda]

Extended Range LRMs sing in the Warrior S 9 . It cans shoot off it's. Ton of ammo with near impunity . Not what I call decisive but enough to scratch the paint coming in and maybe finish off a damaged retreating enemy . But outside of a fast VTOL with stealth armor any other kind of unit would be hard pressed to not eat a minimum range penalty.

[SCC]

iATMs work because they are very strictly quarantined away from the main game. While we would all love BV to be perfect it isn't. The squeals about Clantech are bad enough. Just imagine the squeals about double Clantech.

That's funny, I don't remember there being any rules about that.

[TigerShark]

That's funny, I don't remember there being any rules about that.

It's explicitly stated that the iATM and Nova CEWS systems never reached beyond the Clan Homeworlds. So they're isolated to that time period and setting. Both systems continued under the Council's rules, with the Nova being restricted to vehicular use only.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

there are a few units from TRO Prototypes that iirc are fluffed as emerging production units

Heavy NLRM carrier
Ontos HEAT
Hunter (Amphibious)

besides the Manticore II, zero canon units use the system after 3085. It's joined NARC and iNARC in a group of advanced technologies that have essentially been abandoned save a few examples that pop up here and there.

Right, forgot about Prototypes. There was also a Bombast Laser variant of Vedette in that TRO. Actually, NLRM's are not that stupid on Manticore II. Matching minimum range with its HPPC is a good thing. There can be a small niche for them on vehicles, though they are not good for spamming them.

NARC and iNARC usually feel a bit of a dead weight when placed on primary combat units. I always wondered why there was no NARC- or iNARC-equipped some fast VTOL variant.

[SCC]

But there's no rules enforcing that, it's quite legit to have a player use one of those 'Mechs in a game against forces that aren't in the homeworlds at the time.

[ANS Kamas P81]

That falls under "if it's okay at your table, we're not going to kick your door in and tell you you're doing it wrong."  If your group plays with supertech like that, fine.  IN CANON, it's limited.

[The_Livewire]

NARC and iNARC usually feel a bit of a dead weight when placed on primary combat units. I always wondered why there was no NARC- or iNARC-equipped some fast VTOL variant.

I was sad to see iNARC fall in the 'extinct' box myself.  Made a good match with TAG.  Something like a Raven, drop the SRM6 and NARC for INARC, add stealth, and it's not meant to fight, just to cause terror.

[Luciora]

I loved the flavor and fluff mechs simply for the reason that it gives more variety.  Mechs like the Charger, the Ostscout refit, the Cephalus prime.  There's a mech for a niche, and they don't all have to be combat ones.   

That goes for weapons too. In universe,  they are made because of some in-game need.    Far too many players metagame and want to cherry pick what they perceive is the perfect idea for how they play.

Sure, after a while they go out of use, but the point is they are there to give us choices and variety to play with and against. 

Unless everyone enjoys playing against er ppc/ heavy PPC and or  Clan tech targeted pulse boats in every single game.

I was sad to see iNARC fall in the 'extinct' box myself.  Made a good match with TAG.  Something like a Raven, drop the SRM6 and NARC for INARC, add stealth, and it's not meant to fight, just to cause terror.

[Daryk]

*snip*
Unless everyone enjoys playing against er ppc/ heavy PPC and or Clan tech targeted pulse boats in every single game.

This is what I was talking about in the other thread... the proliferation of (usable) head capping weapons and the combination of targeting computers and pulse lasers (with range) throw off the fundamental balance of the game. At the very least "useless" weapons don't do that.

[grimlock1]

I was sad to see iNARC fall in the 'extinct' box myself.  Made a good match with TAG.  Something like a Raven, drop the SRM6 and NARC for INARC, add stealth, and it's not meant to fight, just to cause terror.

I miss iNARC too. It has an inexplicably warm place in my heart.  A stealthy, taggy, narcy, Raven is scary little idea.

[Col Toda]

I love improved NARC becomes extinct. Homing and Semi-guided ammo is almost half of what I use . When it existed I had to kill those units first to eliminate Nemesis Podsas a threat.

[mbear]

Someone already mentioned it, but I'll reiterate that the Enhanced LRM system came into being during the first panicked days of the Clan Invasion. I'm sure equipping a group of Bombardiers or Archers or Crusaders with a weapon that could (in a pinch) work like a giant SRM seemed like a good idea. Hell it is a good idea. Being able to fire your primary missile banks at a much shorter range is a good thing. But the downsides, especially when Clan tech missile launchers became available, ultimately killed the missile launcher. Better options are available, and they're used.

But at the time, when traditional missile boats were being overrun by fast moving, heavily armed units? Having that smaller minimum range could've been a life saver. (Though why you wouldn't just add SRM racks is something I don't understand.)

[Kit deSummersville]

Extended Range LRMs sing in the Warrior S 9 . It cans shoot off it's. Ton of ammo with near impunity . Not what I call decisive but enough to scratch the paint coming in and maybe finish off a damaged retreating enemy . But outside of a fast VTOL with stealth armor any other kind of unit would be hard pressed to not eat a minimum range penalty.

I think you make have the wrong thread....

[Frabby]

It occurs to me that the additional crits are a non-issue for vehicles, which makes the larger Enhanced LRM launchers at least somewhat worthwhile. For 'Mechs, not so much - but that's mainly because you'd have to redesign the 'Mech for best using this launcher. As a refit I reckon they're mostly a poor choice.