Cherries & Lemons?

[Black_Knyght]

So taking some time to look over ALL the weapons and equipment available by the latest era of Battletech, I have to wonder just how many of these are Cherries and well worth using, and how many are Lemons and not worth the trouble?

What weapons & equipment do you think are great additions?

What weapons & equipment do you think missed the mark altogether?

[marauder648]

Well the obvious cherry is Clan pulse weapons.  To the point that they skirt cheese, and in my battles I quite pointedly say that you can't take more than X number of LPL's due to how bloody powerful they are.  If I could change them i'd reduce their range so they 'only' have the same ranges as standard IS lasers so they are not so devastating. 

Lemons - HVACs, Bombast lasers, Extended LRMs due to them coming out so damn late, if they had come out earlier they could probably carve a niche, but by the time they are out, Clan LRMs are on the market and are infinitely superior.  But of the worse, my vote goes for Bombasts, the + hit penalty at full charge is obscene.

Psuedo-Lemons - ER Pulse lasers, not bad, not great but not offering that many advantages that makes you go gimme!

[grimlock1]

I would be inclined to call IS medium and large pulse lasers lemons.  Both hit a bit harder and have that lovely -2 TH, but their ranges are so short that those modifiers end up canceling out your bonuses except in the last few hexes.

[marauder648]

Hmm I dunno, the problem is that when compared to Clan pulse lasers, the IS ones are laughably short ranged.  But compared to standard IS lasers its not THAT bad. 

[grimlock1]

Hmm I dunno, the problem is that when compared to Clan pulse lasers, the IS ones are laughably short ranged.  But compared to standard IS lasers its not THAT bad.

It's not the total range that irks me quite so much as how much the brackets shrink. Compare the range mods of a large pulse to a regular large.  The pulse mod helps you between 1-3 hexs and 6-7 hexes. Anywhere else in the envelope, it has the same mods as a regular large laser. If you compare to an ER large, the pulse mod only helps you from 1-3 hexes.

The story is basically the same for the medium pulse, except scaled down.

The shtick of pulse lasers is they have a built in targeting bonus and more damage. They pay for that in weight, heat and reduced range. I submit, that the reduction in range forces more of the engagement into the medium and long range brackets, thus negating their accuracy boost in 50% of the engagement envelope.

This makes them no better than well handled standar.....[face palm]

Did you ever write out an argument only to blow a hole  in it as you craft your cutting final remark?

If a skillfully used medium laser is better than a mediocre use of a medium pulse, then a skillfully applied pulse should be better than a well used standard.

And considering how often pulses go on jumpy backstabbers, floating at the sweet range shouldn't  be a huge problem.


I think I'll stop talking.

[SCC]

Extended LRMs due to them coming out so damn late, if they had come out earlier they could probably carve a niche, but by the time they are out, Clan LRMs are on the market and are infinitely superior.  But of the worse, my vote goes for Bombasts, the + hit penalty at full charge is obscene.

Your confusing Extended with Enhanced, Extended are the ones that can reach across two page to reach out and touch someone, Enhanced are the one's with reduced minimums.

Lemons: IS Pulse Lasers, PPC Capacitors in AS
Cherries: RISC Pulse Laser Modules, PPC Capacitors in TW

[Sharpnel]

Well the obvious cherry is Clan pulse weapons.  To the point that they skirt cheese, and in my battles I quite pointedly say that you can't take more than X number of LPL's due to how bloody powerful they are.  If I could change them i'd reduce their range so they 'only' have the same ranges as standard IS lasers so they are not so devastating. 

Lemons - HVACs, Bombast lasers, Extended LRMs due to them coming out so damn late, if they had come out earlier they could probably carve a niche, but by the time they are out, Clan LRMs are on the market and are infinitely superior.  But of the worse, my vote goes for Bombasts, the + hit penalty at full charge is obscene.

Psuedo-Lemons - ER Pulse lasers, not bad, not great but not offering that many advantages that makes you go gimme!

I concur with the above and would Variable Speed Pulse Lasers to the Lemon list.  The extra weight to mount these is not worth it This is one of the reasons the Wobblies lost as they relied on garbage like this. Another cherry for me is the Light PPC as it can give light 'Mechs that extra bit of range, which is a key factor for me as you don't have to sacrifice your lights by closing with the enemy.

[Daryk]

For me, Blazer Cannons and Rocket Launchers are the cherries.  They're things that should have been around from the beginning, and make perfect sense in a 3025 universe.

Lemon-wise, I'm going with everything Clan.  The transition to Star League tech was somewhat rough, but overall balanced.  Balance went out the window with Clan technology, in every way.

Format note: the bright yellow you chose for "Lemons" is almost unreadable under the default forum skin.  I recommend a darker shade.
EDIT: Thanks!  That's much easier on the eyes.

[Dies Irae]

It's not the total range that irks me quite so much as how much the brackets shrink. Compare the range mods of a large pulse to a regular large.  The pulse mod helps you between 1-3 hexs and 6-7 hexes. Anywhere else in the envelope, it has the same mods as a regular large laser. If you compare to an ER large, the pulse mod only helps you from 1-3 hexes.

The story is basically the same for the medium pulse, except scaled down.

The shtick of pulse lasers is they have a built in targeting bonus and more damage. They pay for that in weight, heat and reduced range. I submit, that the reduction in range forces more of the engagement into the medium and long range brackets, thus negating their accuracy boost in 50% of the engagement envelope.

This makes them no better than well handled standar.....[face palm]

Did you ever write out an argument only to blow a hole  in it as you craft your cutting final remark?

If a skillfully used medium laser is better than a mediocre use of a medium pulse, then a skillfully applied pulse should be better than a well used standard.

And considering how often pulses go on jumpy backstabbers, floating at the sweet range shouldn't  be a huge problem.


I think I'll stop talking.

I disagree if only because while a skillfully used Medium Pulse is nice and old, TWO skillfully used Medium Lasers is a lot more throw going downstream.

Inner Sphere Pulse Lasers irk me. Not enough to pitch a fit though, unlike obviously dud weapons like the Autocannon 5 series (which pretty much only has the HMG for competition for worst weapon in the game).

[CrazyGrasshopper]

Well the obvious cherry is Clan pulse weapons.  To the point that they skirt cheese, and in my battles I quite pointedly say that you can't take more than X number of LPL's due to how bloody powerful they are.  If I could change them i'd reduce their range so they 'only' have the same ranges as standard IS lasers so they are not so devastating. 

Lemon-wise, I'm going with everything Clan.  The transition to Star League tech was somewhat rough, but overall balanced.  Balance went out the window with Clan technology, in every way.

Oh, I see comrades here! Exactly my thoughts.

Clan ER PPC is also an obvious cherry. It punches way too powerful for its weight. If I could nerf it, I'd rather drop its damage to 12. Still a headcapper, but at least a bit less cheesy one.

On IS Pulse Lasers. They are not exactly lemons, at least MPL's. They are simply pigeonholed for knife-fighting ranges. IS LPL does seem underwhelming. With the introduction of the SN-PPC's it can be replaced with them without a loss of effectiveness.

[grimlock1]

On IS Pulse Lasers. They are not exactly lemons, at least MPL's. They are simply pigeonholed for knife-fighting ranges. IS LPL does seem underwhelming. With the introduction of the SN-PPC's it can be replaced with them without a loss of effectiveness.

Well, the small pulse is a PBI killer.

With the introduction of snubbie PPCs, the IS large pulse is basically obsolete. The only advantage is knife fighting range from 1-3 hexes. From 4 hexes up, the snubbies are equal or better than the large pulse.

[Daryk]

Well, the small pulse is a PBI killer.
*snip*

And one that doesn't explode, or automatically set fire to the city you're trying to defend or take intact.

[SCC]

And one that doesn't explode, or automatically set fire to the city you're trying to defend or take intact.

A-Pods and their decedents (More lemons) also fall into this category, as do Vehicular Grenade Launchers (Non-lemon), of course those are one shot weapons.

Now technically any weapon capable can also kill infantry and they don't explode OR set the city on fire, at least not directly in the last case.

[grimlock1]

A-Pods and their decedents (More lemons) also fall into this category, as do Vehicular Grenade Launchers (Non-lemon), of course those are one shot weapons.

I think Smoke and Chaff ammo might buy the VGL's off the lemon list. They are a way to bring some smoke rounds to the fight without dedicating an entire ton of missiles.  They do require a bit of planning and forethought but they can help defend an exposed position or cover an advance across open ground.  Yeah, they both kick in during the end phase, but it's an option, at least until chaff pods hit the market.

Chaff pods, are a real gem.  It is the only item I can think of that might save your butt after loosing initiative and getting flanked. Anything else like ECM, stealth, Blue Shield, etc are activated in the End Phase. 

[ANS Kamas P81]

Gold-plated Cherry: Clan tech LRMs; no minimum range and half-weight launchers?  They're as gorgeous as engine mounted double heat sinks.
That's Not Gold, That's Not Gold At All-plated lemon: Enhanced LRMs.  At least Extended LRMs have some serious range benefit; NRLMs shave three hexes off their minimums and that's it.  (Also, ExLRMs with C3 is funny and wrong)

[Col Toda]

Cherries anything used well with a well thought out tactical doctrine . Lemons MRMs before Apollo FCS , rocket launchers after the iOS comes out , Clan Heavy Lasers , Clan improved Heavy Lasers , Clan Plasma Cannons . Clan ATM smaller than 9 ,  MML smaller than 7  .  The jury is still out on the iATM  if like the ATM no indirect fire for long range than add it to the list .

[SD501st]

Since most other Cherries have already been picked and adressed, I'll add one that is debatable, but a Cherry in my eyes:

The Re-Engineered Large Laser since the rules changed to make the RE Lasers semi-pulse.
And it's the Large that stands out and imho takes a spot alongside the regular Large Laser and the Large XPulse Laser. Why? Take a good look at the stats. You get weapon that has the range of the Large Laser, with the damage of the Large Pulse/XPulse, and only a slightly worse heat balance/damage balance than the regular Large, the same as the Large Pulse, and a way better one than the Large XPulse.

Sure, it's one ton heavier, but if you wanted the same -1 to hit on a Large Laser, you'd need to add a 2 ton TarComp. The only real downside is the large size, but you get a bonus for it that gets ever more important with the proliferation of Reflective, Ferro-Lamelor and especially Hardened Armor.

If you have the crits free, the LREL is arguably a better choice than the LL and a much better choice than the very heat intensive LXPL.


By the way, it's easy to see what exactly is "OP" or "wrong" about the Clan LPL... take a look at the range bands of the three regular Clan Pulse Lasers:
SPL: 2/4/6 - 2 Hex steps
MPL: 4/8/12 - 4 Hex steps
LPL: 6/14(!!)/20 a 6 Hex step(as it should be) followed by an 8 Hex step and then another 6 Hex step. See?

Now, if we apply the band pattern of the other Clan Pulse Lasers to the CLPL, we get a 6/12/18 weapon that does 10 damage. In essence, an IS PPC without minimum range and with a -2 hit modifier. That looks much more acceptable, don't you think?

[grimlock1]

The Re-Engineered Large Laser since the rules changed to make the RE Lasers semi-pulse.

Where/when did that happen?  Did I fall asleep and miss another Jihad?

[NeonKnight]

Where/when did that happen?  Did I fall asleep and miss another Jihad?

From BattleMech manual (page 101)

RE-ENGINEERED (RE) LASER
“The laser so nice they engineered it twice.”
Game Rules: Attack rolls for re-engineered lasers apply a
–1 Target Number modifier. RE lasers also treat each armor circle
provided by hardened, ferro-lamellor, and laser-reflective armors
as 1 point of standard armor. Versus RE lasers, these armors provide
no special protective bonuses of any kind.
Technology Base: Inner Sphere
Type: P

[Tai Dai Cultist]

There was also an errata prior to the BattleMech manual, but yeah it's out there now.  The -1 to hit was added in to make them actually worth using.

[CDAT]

I think that the Ultra AC is one more lemon. Or at least in ultra mode. I am a legendary gunner at perfect range not moving shooting an immobile unit so to hit with my first round I need 0+0+0-4 or -4 or better to hit, but on my second round I need an 8 or better to hit and if I roll a 2 my gun breaks for the duration (hundreds of years after they first designed it they still can not fix this major flaw).

[grimlock1]

I think that the Ultra AC is one more lemon. Or at least in ultra mode. I am a legendary gunner at perfect range not moving shooting an immobile unit so to hit with my first round I need 0+0+0-4 or -4 or better to hit, but on my second round I need an 8 or better to hit and if I roll a 2 my gun breaks for the duration (hundreds of years after they first designed it they still can not fix this major flaw).

Yeah, that 50/50 chance for the second shot always rankled me. Although if the odds of the hit are less than 42%, it may be beneficial  double tap. 
Say your odds of a hit are 35%, I'm ignoring dice right now, and just looking at the percentages.
So have a 35% chance to connect. Figure you'll have a similar 35% chance next turn. 

So the odds of shot A or B hitting are 70%.  (.35+.35=.7)
The odds of A and B hitting are only 12.25%. (.35 *.35=.1225)
But the odds of A hitting AND the ultra shot connecting are 14.7% (.35 * .42=.147)

Yeah, I'm more inclined to wait for a better shot.

I'm less hostile towards RAC's, more lead in the air and the ability to unjam, although they do suffer in range.

[Hominid Mk II]

The Enhanced ER PPC would have been a Cherry if it had stayed IS tech instead of being reinterpreted as Clan tech and had been made available to IS factions between the Jihad and the Dark Age.

[grimlock1]

How about the LRM-5 for a cherry?

With the exception of more heat, a quartet of LRM-5's is equal to or better than an LRM-20. 
For either IS or Clans, the LRM bank is lighter, and can survive a crit.
I did some simulations and found that the average damage of 4 LRM-5's was +/- 0.5 points, and this held over thousands of simulations. While I haven't ground it out, I expect the same will hold for replacing -15's and -10's with banks of 5's.

It should also work for SRM's as well.

[grimlock1]

I'm a bit surprised that TW wasn't able to resurrect NARC/iNARC from the Scrappy Heap.  A -1 on the missile attack role is nice but a NARCed unit can be the subject of Indirect LRM fire, without needing a spotter.

That said, as evil an idea as it sounds, the Nemesis pod seems like something that you could spend a career waiting for the chance to use.

[The_Livewire]

The Enhanced ER PPC would have been a Cherry if it had stayed IS tech instead of being reinterpreted as Clan tech and had been made available to IS factions between the Jihad and the Dark Age.

This .  I hate that errata

[grimlock1]

The Enhanced ER PPC would have been a Cherry if it had stayed IS tech instead of being reinterpreted as Clan tech and had been made available to IS factions between the Jihad and the Dark Age.

This .  I hate that errata

That would make the Heavy PPC seem like a real non-starter. 5 hexes longer reach, no minimums, 3 tons lighter, a crit smaller.  Sign me up!  It will cost you is 3 points of damage, you can still serve up the decappuccino from more than a mapsheet away.

[The_Livewire]

That would make the Heavy PPC seem like a real non-starter. 5 hexes longer reach, no minimums, 3 tons lighter, a crit smaller.  Sign me up!  It will cost you is 3 points of damage, you can still serve up the decappuccino from more than a mapsheet away.

Which is why, in the Jihad and Dark age, retro-tech was never a thing, and things like regular PPCs and lasers disappeared.  It's also why come the blackout every mech out there ran all clan tech chassis and no one was making IS level tech anymore, right? Existence does not equal universal availability.  Yes, a gutbuster over a regular IS ER PPC is preferred, just like a clantech PPC over a heavy PPC is preferred.  Doesn't mean everyone has access to it. 

It's the idea that the Wolverines alone came up with the Gutbuster in 20 years tops, and that no-one in the entire IS in the 60 years from the end of the Jihad to the dark age, couldn't duplicate that feat that makes the change silly.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm a bit surprised that TW wasn't able to resurrect NARC/iNARC from the Scrappy Heap.  A -1 on the missile attack role is nice but a NARCed unit can be the subject of Indirect LRM fire, without needing a spotter.

That said, as evil an idea as it sounds, the Nemesis pod seems like something that you could spend a career waiting for the chance to use.

Probably has to do with the lack of decent NARC/iNARC units, especially iNARC, since it's so faction specific.

[Black_Knyght]

since it's so faction specific.

Still don't think THAT was the best decision...

[SCC]

Probably has to do with the lack of decent NARC/iNARC units, especially iNARC, since it's so faction specific.

iNarc is nasty but, that plus ARAD missile is -2 to-hit and +4 Cluster Hits, how'd you like a medium getting in your face with 8 SRM tubes with those bonuses?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Do the mods for iNARC and ARAD missiles stack?  I didn't think they did.

[SCC]

First two lines of the ARAD missile rules:

ARAD Missiles use the same rules as Narc-equipped standard missile types for their launcher and size, with the following exceptions:
ARAD Missiles ignore the effects of hostile ECM when targeting a unit tagged by a friendly Narc pod.

Pretty sure they do, and no level of ECM can stop them from seeing the beacon.

[Sharkapult]

Oh man, that means if you have a NARC on a unit with ECM your indirect LRM fire is down right murderous with ARAD ammo. Whoa.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Man, I have got to try those out some time.

[Firesprocket]

The way it reads in Tac Ops ARAD only gives a -1 to-hit when used in conjunction with iNARC. 

• ARAD Missiles are more accurate against any unit that actively emits electronic signals, and receive a –1 to-hit modifier and a +1 Cluster Hits Table roll
modifi er if the target is using at least one of the following systems: Active Probes (of any kind), Artemis fi re-control systems, the Blue Shield system,
C3 systems (of any kind), communications equipment (3.5 tons or more), or ECM suites (of any kind). These modifiers are not cumulative, even if the
target unit is using multiple electronic warfare systems. This effect also occurs if the target has been tagged by a friendly Narc or iNarc homing pod.
However, the ARAD missile does not receive any further to-hit bonus from the pod

• Against any target not using the above-listed electronic warfare systems, ARAD Missiles suffer a +2 to-hit modifier and a –2 Cluster Hits Table roll
modifier (to a minimum result of 2).

Reading through the rules, ARAD is a type of munition and as such isn't a NARC munition.  The only thing that ARAD is effectively doing is keying in on the fact there is a NARC on the target to fulfill the conditions of -1 to-hit and +1 Cluster.


http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=2723.msg68360#msg68360

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=26824.msg613369#msg613369

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=26886.msg687580#msg687580

*edits to provide ruling links

[Nightsong]

Idle though, and probably a no, but can iNarc ECM pods be configured (pre-battle of course) to act as ECCM? If so, it would make C*/WoB units a bit more viable.

[Firesprocket]

Yes they can.  And it doesn't have to be prior to battle.  It is prior to each shot taken. 

[Nightsong]

That would be very interesting, then, being able to cripple jammer ‘mechs. Which does make me think of some ideas about Kuritan iNarc refits, since they did have access to them through at least the non-C3i Tessens. Would be fun to use in the DCMS units that are willing to use C3.

[JadeHellbringer]

Yes they can.  And it doesn't have to be prior to battle.  It is prior to each shot taken.

Wait, really? Huh. Never knew that, but that could be seriously unpleasant to deal with.

[Sir Chaos]

Wait, really? Huh. Never knew that, but that could be seriously unpleasant to deal with.

I think that´s the general idea.

[JadeHellbringer]

I meant more the selecting per-turn rather than pre-game, but yeah, unpleasant either way. Just... more FLEXIBLE and unpleasant this way.  #P

[Sir Chaos]

I meant more the selecting per-turn rather than pre-game, but yeah, unpleasant either way. Just... more FLEXIBLE and unpleasant this way.  #P

Flexible and unpleasant is the most unpleasant kind of unpleasant.  >:D

[JadeHellbringer]

Flexible and unpleasant is the most unpleasant kind of unpleasant.  >:D

That's a T-shirt material quote. Bravo!

[grimlock1]

What about Swarm LRM's?  I've never used them, mostly because I look at the rules and think, "what are the odds that this perfect storm of circumstances will happen?"

[Firesprocket]

What about Swarm LRM's?  I've never used them, mostly because I look at the rules and think, "what are the odds that this perfect storm of circumstances will happen?"

Pretty damn good.  Many people are likely to get lazy and move things together in the interest of moving the game along and/or just decide to Conga line when they field a large quantity of units.  There are certainly better munitions choices, but Swarm definitely isn't bad one if you know someone is going to be a bit lazy with their movement.

[Black_Knyght]

Just caught THIS, and soooooooooo agree! It's why we NEVER use mixed tech production mechs. EVER!

Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.

[Col Toda]

Like So many things in Battletech thw question of mixed tech is ERA specific Apollo's law does apply in every ERA except the Dark Age when units are coming out of factory with ONE primary weapon or 2 secondary weapons . Other than that Apollo's law is one I agree with .

[JadeHellbringer]

Just caught THIS, and soooooooooo agree! It's why we NEVER use mixed tech production mechs. EVER!

I know that my lasting legacy to Battletech is going to be the Hellbie Dice meme, but Apollo's Law is one that I wouldn't mind people remembering me for someday. It really is true. It came from a long-ago discussion about the Apollo Battlemech, with someone pointing out how much better it gets when you install four Clan LRM-15s in place of the Inner Sphere versions. Which... is debatable in and of itself (ammo becomes a problem, and heat starts getting kind of worrisome). But being a FWL design- and not a particularly great one, compared to the Trebuchet they already build- why would they use what little Clan salvage they likely get their hands on for... this?

Look, upgrading an Awesome 8Q's ER PPCs with Clan models? Hey, that's solid, if you have 'em use 'em. Getting a Clan Gauss in place of an LGR on the multitude of designs that pack them? Loss of range is a downer, but gain of firepower is hard to dislike. There's reasons to do all that. But a dumpy second-line fire support Mech? Hard to justify that expense.

[Col Toda]

The biggest reason to avoid mixed tech is logistics and after market price . During the Clan invasion Era my unit made a huge profit because it sought out exchange for Salvage . The only Clan Mech worth having was the Stone Rhino a 100 ton Assault with Standard Fusion Engine, Standard Armor , and Standard Internal structure . When you have a logical train that starts to have a lot of Clan Spec stuff which after market cost is 2-2.8 X the Inner Sphere counterparts your profit margin goes down the flusher . Even in the Dark Age when inner sphere manufacturers make Clan Spec weapons that after market replacement premium would remain . Your examples given do not make a lot of sense . The 8 Q Awesome would start to melt after the first salvo . Exchanging Clan Gauss for Light Gauss particularly in Aerospace is a big lose . And all Clan ammo at the same 2-2.8 X premium would still be painful . Minimizing to only one primarily or 2 secondary weapons might be sustainable . After the Clan invasion Era using Clan Endo steel and Ferro Fibrous armor is Not sustainable and quickly becomes your loss leader . The profligate use of the warchest point system does not truly reflect this price which is why we see too much of it. Sustainability is key most of it is not sustainable at all . I saw a mercenary unit put a Clan 400 XL engine in a 100 ton mech and gave it up as a good idea by the third time they replaced it at 22-26 million C Bills every time .

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given how much Clantech proliferated around the Inner Sphere in the 3050s and 3060s, it clearly wasn't as unsustainable as you make it out to be.  Numerous units used it, including small merc groups that operated on shoestring budgets (Avanti's Angels, for example) and stayed in business anyway.

[Col Toda]

It was sustainable during the Clan invasion Era but not afterwards . During the Clan invasion Era there was enough salvage to go around  . I said as much in my post . After in which Inner Sphere Clans like the Nova Cats are using more and more inner sphere hardware that actual Clan hardware is far less available as salvage . For instance the Dragon Fire is on the random mech assignment table with no Clan tech in it at all ( For the Nova Cat Chart ). Ghost Bears , Jade Falcons and Hells Horses all start using Inner Sphere combat vehicles to fill in the defensive quantitative gap. The Diamond Sharks / Sea Foxes sell to inner sphere factions at 2-2.8 X list price and only to approved customers . You are correct 3050-3060 , my post is about after that point where half the hardware the Clans start fielding is Inner Sphere technology.

[Nightlord01]

It was sustainable during the Clan invasion Era but not afterwards . During the Clan invasion Era there was enough salvage to go around  . I said as much in my post . After in which Inner Sphere Clans like the Nova Cats are using more and more inner sphere hardware that actual Clan hardware is far less available as salvage . For instance the Dragon Fire is on the random mech assignment table with no Clan tech in it at all ( For the Nova Cat Chart ). Ghost Bears , Jade Falcons and Hells Horses all start using Inner Sphere combat vehicles to fill in the defensive quantitative gap. The Diamond Sharks / Sea Foxes sell to inner sphere factions at 2-2.8 X list price and only to approved customers . You are correct 3050-3060 , my post is about after that point where half the hardware the Clans start fielding is Inner Sphere technology.

You do realise that this only makes sense if you assume that the outcome of every engagement will remain the same regardless of tech deployed? If Clan tech means you successfully complete your contract and IS tech means you don't, the cost differential is irrelevant. Replacing a CERPPC is cheaper than replacing an Awesome.

In reality, a nation state at war isn't really concerned with cost, that's tomorrow's problem.

[SCC]

You do realise that this only makes sense if you assume that the outcome of every engagement will remain the same regardless of tech deployed? If Clan tech means you successfully complete your contract and IS tech means you don't, the cost differential is irrelevant. Replacing a CERPPC is cheaper than replacing an Awesome.

In reality, a nation state at war isn't really concerned with cost, that's tomorrow's problem.

Also Clan weapons can load IS ammo, so that problem won't be an issue.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It was sustainable during the Clan invasion Era but not afterwards . During the Clan invasion Era there was enough salvage to go around  . I said as much in my post . After in which Inner Sphere Clans like the Nova Cats are using more and more inner sphere hardware that actual Clan hardware is far less available as salvage . For instance the Dragon Fire is on the random mech assignment table with no Clan tech in it at all ( For the Nova Cat Chart ). Ghost Bears , Jade Falcons and Hells Horses all start using Inner Sphere combat vehicles to fill in the defensive quantitative gap. The Diamond Sharks / Sea Foxes sell to inner sphere factions at 2-2.8 X list price and only to approved customers . You are correct 3050-3060 , my post is about after that point where half the hardware the Clans start fielding is Inner Sphere technology.

The Nova Cats were using Spheriod mechs because they no longer had all their old factories and couldn't put out enough production to meet demands after they moved in the the Combine.  The Bears were only using Spheroid combat vehicles because they'd captured so many of them that they had a surplus, plus many of their crews were former FRR and familiar with the vehicles already.  And they were actually upgrading old IS tanks to Clantech, like the Axel IIC.  Meanwhile, the Falcons were actively contemptuous of tanks until after the Jihad anyway and never bothered giving their tank crews good stuff.

Also, remember the frequent mantra about RATs not being a definitive source for how much anyone has of a given mech or tank.

[Col Toda]

The tech base does not matter much . My first post stands the best tactical doctrine and unit cohesion tends to win . As for no nation cares about costs not quite true , they want the mercenary units to go insolvent in their national borders so they can get absorbed via company store or outright seizure . I was referring to the mercenary trade and not nations . For nations it is a question of availability . Inner Sphere Clans tend to have a choice defend 30-50 worlds with 150 Clan Spec units or 50 Clan Spec units and 1000  inner sphere tech units . Clans lose in Every war of attrition they fight . They adapted so they would not die . The Clan equipment like the warriors are tested and those found not to measure up is put aside . Materials get recycled . Inner Sphere technology can be put out likely at two orders of magnitude higher volumes than Clan tech .

[truetanker]

Took me about one month after I found out that the Highlander IIC was just a remake to make it with captured clantech.

NO no! said my GM. It uses clan technology. Showed him the recordsheet of both. From then on out, nothing but Highlanders whenever I can get them in a 3049+ era campaign.

TT

[Nightlord01]

The tech base does not matter much . My first post stands the best tactical doctrine and unit cohesion tends to win . As for no nation cares about costs not quite true , they want the mercenary units to go insolvent in their national borders so they can get absorbed via company store or outright seizure . I was referring to the mercenary trade and not nations . For nations it is a question of availability . Inner Sphere Clans tend to have a choice defend 30-50 worlds with 150 Clan Spec units or 50 Clan Spec units and 1000  inner sphere tech units . Clans lose in Every war of attrition they fight . They adapted so they would not die . The Clan equipment like the warriors are tested and those found not to measure up is put aside . Materials get recycled . Inner Sphere technology can be put out likely at two orders of magnitude higher volumes than Clan tech .

No society in a genuine war worries about cost, this is a law of nature, and there is plenty of precedent in the BTU for nations spending ridiculous sums on military upgrades even when they aren't as objectively better than is displayed by Clan equipment. I do somewhat agree with you that mercs may not be particularly interested in using Clan tech due to difficulty in repairs and short supply.

What you are highlighting, on the other hand, is a massive weakness in the BTU's immersion. About the only reason that makes sense why these assets don't come down in cost is in pure game play, where if you allow unfettered access to high tech equipment then you lose all motivation to play with the objectively worse base technology.

As for employers wanting mercs to be bankrupt, there are canonical examples of this, but most of the BTU powers seem to treat mercs fairly. While you have a point, it's no where near as good a one as you seem to think.

[Col Toda]

Their is nothing unfair done should a business go insolvent due to poor decisions done by management . Asking employing nations to ask creditors to forgive tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of debt ia not fair to the financial institutions of the nation . It not a government's job to shove in such protections that no lending institutions will do business with mercenary forces at all. It is a business like any other and are treated fairly . Most Mercenary units fail like all companies do to bad management that is all . It happens frequently whether it is planned by a nation or not . The only choice they have is to purchase the insolvent units assets to pay off their creditors or let some other entity purchase military hardware .

[Nightlord01]

Their is nothing unfair done should a business go insolvent due to poor decisions done by management . Asking employing nations to ask creditors to forgive tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of debt ia not fair to the financial institutions of the nation . It not a government's job to shove in such protections that no lending institutions will do business with mercenary forces at all. It is a business like any other and are treated fairly . Most Mercenary units fail like all companies do to bad management that is all . It happens frequently whether it is planned by a nation or not . The only choice they have is to purchase the insolvent units assets to pay off their creditors or let some other entity purchase military hardware .

I'm going to be honest with you Col Toda, I'm not entirely sure what you are saying.
However, from my best effort you are saying the government is not going to make creditors forgive a merc unit's debt, I couldn't agree more. However that was not your original claim, your claim was that the governments actively worked towards making a merc unit insolvent, this is a totally different argument. Most employers we see are willing to reimburse merc units a percentage of damages suffered, and while there may be plenty who don't make it, there are obviously several who do.

Either way, this has lead off down the garden path, well away from the original topic of discussion, so I'm going to end my contribution here.

[Sir Chaos]

No society in a genuine war worries about cost

Of course they do. Big time. Well, the smart ones at least.

Not in the sense of wondering whether or not to spend the money they need to spend to win the war, but in the sense of getting the most bang out of their buck.

Take, for example, Nazi Germany building expensive, maintenance-intensive masterworks of engineering (Panzer IV, Panther, Tiger and so on), versus the Soviet Union spamming buttloads of cheap, reliable "good enough for the job" designs (mainly the T-34). How much does it matter if the tanks you build can take on two or three enemy tanks at the same time and win, when your enemy builds tanks so cheaply that he can field ten tanks for every one of yours?

All else being equal, the side that can produce a bigger bang for their available bucks than the enemy can for their respective available bucks tends to win the war.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The BTU has arbitrarily small armies, preventing the T-34/Sherman tactic of building five times as many tanks as your opponent and winning simply through flooding the battlefield.

[YingJanshi]

The BTU has arbitrarily small armies, preventing the T-34/Sherman tactic of building five times as many tanks as your opponent and winning simply through flooding the battlefield.

Though it has been tried, see: Mercer Ravannion.

[Sir Chaos]

The BTU has arbitrarily small armies, preventing the T-34/Sherman tactic of building five times as many tanks as your opponent and winning simply through flooding the battlefield.

But the FedCom *can* field a mediocre RCT that´ll wipe the floor with even the most elite Clan frontline cluster.

[CDAT]

Of course they do. Big time. Well, the smart ones at least.

Not in the sense of wondering whether or not to spend the money they need to spend to win the war, but in the sense of getting the most bang out of their buck.

Take, for example, Nazi Germany building expensive, maintenance-intensive masterworks of engineering (Panzer IV, Panther, Tiger and so on), versus the Soviet Union spamming buttloads of cheap, reliable "good enough for the job" designs (mainly the T-34). How much does it matter if the tanks you build can take on two or three enemy tanks at the same time and win, when your enemy builds tanks so cheaply that he can field ten tanks for every one of yours?

All else being equal, the side that can produce a bigger bang for their available bucks than the enemy can for their respective available bucks tends to win the war.

This is also not apples to apples, the Soviet Union could only do this because the US was providing most of the other equipment that they needed. If that had not happened then from almost every reading I have done it if thought that they would have fallen to the better equipment of the Germans, as they could not build enough tanks at the same time they were building the trucks and stuff that they needed.

[Sir Chaos]

This is also not apples to apples, the Soviet Union could only do this because the US was providing most of the other equipment that they needed. If that had not happened then from almost every reading I have done it if thought that they would have fallen to the better equipment of the Germans, as they could not build enough tanks at the same time they were building the trucks and stuff that they needed.

The point is, had the Germans built a T-34 equivalent (and gone to similar levels of simplicity in other areas), or had the Soviets built tanks like the Panther and Tiger and Elephant, things would have looked very different.


Back to a BT analogy...

I can acquire a Cluster´s worth of Clan OmniMechs (45 in three trinaries), which (assuming Clan tech to cost 3 times list price) will cost me 2 billion C-Bills or so for a decent mix of weight classes.
Or I can buy two regiments of 3025 era Mechs for about 1.25 billion, 6 regiments of cheap vehicles for 500 million and 10 regiments of infantry (with a good mix of types and armaments) with basic APCs for 250 million. That gives me two RCTs, which together are going to unceremoniously wipe the floor with that Cluster, no matter how badass those clanners are individually.

[CDAT]

The point is, had the Germans built a T-34 equivalent (and gone to similar levels of simplicity in other areas), or had the Soviets built tanks like the Panther and Tiger and Elephant, things would have looked very different.

Now I am not saying that the Germans could not have made better decisions, and I am not saying that the T-34 was not a good tank for the time, but had the Russians not had all the support from the other Allies they would have lost even with the poor decisions that the Germans made, and the poor decisions that the Russians were making would have made it even worse. If the Russians had tried to make tanks like the Panther, Tiger and Elephant than I think (partly at least based on my reading) it would have gone very bad for them. One reason from several of the different books I have read they talk about how lots of the Russian equipment including tanks were only built for at most one battle some were worn out before one battle was done, it was just they made so many, now if you were trying to fight "quality" with "quality" but were turning out junk that does not work well for you.

Back to a BT analogy...

I can acquire a Cluster´s worth of Clan OmniMechs (45 in three trinaries), which (assuming Clan tech to cost 3 times list price) will cost me 2 billion C-Bills or so for a decent mix of weight classes.
Or I can buy two regiments of 3025 era Mechs for about 1.25 billion, 6 regiments of cheap vehicles for 500 million and 10 regiments of infantry (with a good mix of types and armaments) with basic APCs for 250 million. That gives me two RCTs, which together are going to unceremoniously wipe the floor with that Cluster, no matter how badass those clanners are individually.

Two things I see here, first you are right that the IS should have just walked over the Clans based only on numbers, I can not think of a "fair" fight between Clan and Inner Sphere where the Clan based on table top game rules stand a chance, they just do not have the armor. Yes the amount of blood that would be spilled on the IS side is going to be massive but they will carry the day. The second issue that I see is that the Clan does not pay a premium for clan tech as that is standard tech for them so you are rendering your argument mute. With that in mind you get one cluster of Clan OmniMechs for about 650,000 or so, and on the other side the IS gets about one regiment of 3025 mech. So no RCT, no support forces (unless you cut the number of mechs), will it be enough to win? I still say yes, but it will be a bloody battle and it will come down to the amount of armor on the IS side (more mechs more armor even if less per mech).

Now if we were talking real world ranges and real world tech advancement I would bet on the Clans in the above fight but that does not follow the rules as written or even intended. It is a game first and formost.  }:)

[Sir Chaos]

Now I am not saying that the Germans could not have made better decisions, and I am not saying that the T-34 was not a good tank for the time, but had the Russians not had all the support from the other Allies they would have lost even with the poor decisions that the Germans made, and the poor decisions that the Russians were making would have made it even worse. If the Russians had tried to make tanks like the Panther, Tiger and Elephant than I think (partly at least based on my reading) it would have gone very bad for them. One reason from several of the different books I have read they talk about how lots of the Russian equipment including tanks were only built for at most one battle some were worn out before one battle was done, it was just they made so many, now if you were trying to fight "quality" with "quality" but were turning out junk that does not work well for you.

Oh, I completely agree here. The Russians played to their own strengths, such as they were, and refrained from trying to match the Germans in their strengths. As Stalin reportedly said: "Quantity has a quality all of its own."

Two things I see here, first you are right that the IS should have just walked over the Clans based only on numbers, I can not think of a "fair" fight between Clan and Inner Sphere where the Clan based on table top game rules stand a chance, they just do not have the armor. Yes the amount of blood that would be spilled on the IS side is going to be massive but they will carry the day. The second issue that I see is that the Clan does not pay a premium for clan tech as that is standard tech for them so you are rendering your argument mute. With that in mind you get one cluster of Clan OmniMechs for about 650,000 or so, and on the other side the IS gets about one regiment of 3025 mech. So no RCT, no support forces (unless you cut the number of mechs), will it be enough to win? I still say yes, but it will be a bloody battle and it will come down to the amount of armor on the IS side (more mechs more armor even if less per mech).

Now if we were talking real world ranges and real world tech advancement I would bet on the Clans in the above fight but that does not follow the rules as written or even intended. It is a game first and formost.  }:)

My point was, even in war, money (or whatever other resource you choose) is still a bottleneck. You have only so much money to buy mech/tanks/infantry, or only so much steel, or so much rubber, or so much manpower, or whatever the critical resource is. So you´re going to optimize how you spend that resource.

The Inner Sphere´s constraining resource is the capacity to produce highly sophisticated military equipment (such as mech and fusion-powered vehicles), which is abstracted in C-Bills available to purchase units. So it makes sense to acquire boatloads of cheap and individually not particularly capable units (ICE-powered vehicles and infantry), backed up by more modest numbers of moderately capable units (3025-era Mech or even the cheaper (standard-engined) upgrades and 3050s/3060s era models). That will be hard on your manpower, but the Successor States have more manpower than they know what to do with.

The Clans´ constraining resource is the capacity for churning out trained combat personnel. Those personnel are individually extremely capable, but there are not very many of them, so it makes sense to spend lavishly in terms of C-Bills to give each of these rare and extremely capable personnel the most powerful unit available to maximize the effect they will have on the battlefield.

Even if we restrict things just to Mechs and assume the Clans pay no mark-up for their own equipment, that three-trinary cluster should work out to 700 million C-Bills or so, for which I can get a reinforced regiment of 3025 mechs, 140-ish units strong (I´m assuming, out of laziness, that the respective per-unit price average out to those of the Mad Dog for Clans and the Rifleman for the IS).

And you are right, the IS is going to win this one, even though it´s going to be bloody. The Clans succeeded (as far as they did) during their invasion because they did not spend the same amount of money as the IS. They spent, as I said above, MORE money to get the most out of what they had the least of - trained personnel. They could, for example, field 3 clusters to defeat an RCT; they´d spend 2 billion C-Bills, which they have plenty of, to the IS´ 1 billion or so. This allowed them to defeat an RCT of 6,000 or so combat personnel with 135 combat personnel of their own, meaning they spent a minimum amount of what they were the most short on - manpower.

To go back to the WW2 example - Russia went with the IS side of the equation, Germany with the Clan side. Germany´s problem was, among several others, that with the support of the US, Russia was no longer so inferior in military production capacity that Germany could have afforded building enough complex over-engineered tanks to deal with Russia´s output of cheap more-or-less-adequate tanks.

[Col Toda]

When the Clan invasion Era started the initial response was to drown them in cheap combat vehicles . The counter response was to ret-con and produce the Hell's Horses as FASA discovered that was  the most quickly implemented counter to a qualitative edge is a quantitative one. Once the Hell's Horses were introduced most canon victory was storytelling and writer's licence . But of the combats that it was not . The Clans lost do to attrition and logistics. Look at the standard Clan deployment gave very limited amno and replacement armor to all there units . They were so accustomed to batcal trials and Omni tech that some of the early designs with 2 ammo types like LBX cannons only had 1 ton of ammo thus eliminating the tactical flexibility of the weapon . Sure they fixed that in later models but it bit them in the ass early on .  The Clans do adapt so they survive but too slowly for universal success.
So to go back on topic Lemons Clan LB-X and ATM mechs with only one ton of ammo dedication for the weapon . Yes they exist look them up.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

When the Clan invasion Era started the initial response was to drown them in cheap combat vehicles . The counter response was to ret-con and produce the Hell's Horses as FASA discovered that was  the most quickly implemented counter to a qualitative edge is a quantitative one. Once the Hell's Horses were introduced most canon victory was storytelling and writer's licence.

Cite?

[Col Toda]

My last post was a : as memory serves . Playing battletech with some of the writers during the FASA days

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Are you sure you're not mixing up Clan Hell's Horses with Clan Protomechs?

[Col Toda]

Clan Hells Horses used combat vehicles as well as mechs . Early proto mechs had the same problem of any new unit in the game of no well developed tactical doctrine to go with them . So the effect of their introduction was blunted as people using mechs and vehicles that knew how best to use them. That changed but it literally took years for proto mechs to amount to anything in the game but it did happen . My first post about any weapon or platform thereof is a cherry . If do not how best to use a tool you constantly are putting square pegs in round holes

[Dark Jackal]

I would be inclined to call IS medium

The IS Medium Laser is the most heat efficient laser in the game. You could technically out DPS someone if you boated only IS Mediums and just have to worry about putting yourself in good roll ranges. Also, they're a lot easier to mount on ICE equipped units if you're into theory crafting and design.

[Dark Jackal]

My Biggest Lemon, (OS) or One-Shot rules that adds 0.5 tons to the base weapon system with no benefit and essentially part of the game that is dead on arrival. For it to be a usable it should remove half the weight of the weapon system for 1 shot and makes a lot more sense than where it currently sits unchanged for a long time. Doing this would make it usable in the rules and fit a gap in the Fluff between primitive rockets back in the Terran Alliance hey day and the return of rockets post 3065.

[truetanker]

The worst lemon I can think of is the SRM-6. Fifteen salvos gets you  ninety rounds, while every other gives you one hundred. In theory, we should have at least sixteen salvos. I'd elaborate and say sixteen salvos and a single SRM-4 burst!

TT

[JadeHellbringer]

My Biggest Lemon, (OS) or One-Shot rules that adds 0.5 tons to the base weapon system with no benefit and essentially part of the game that is dead on arrival. For it to be a usable it should remove half the weight of the weapon system for 1 shot and makes a lot more sense than where it currently sits unchanged for a long time. Doing this would make it usable in the rules and fit a gap in the Fluff between primitive rockets back in the Terran Alliance hey day and the return of rockets post 3065.

Oh totally. Always hated that. It's especially heinous on designs that then insist on packing two one-shot launchers, like the War Dog. Might as well have just brought the ammo- unless you're that paranoid about ammo explosions (and a War Dog has a GAUSS RIFLE already!), or you just don't have a spare crit (in which case, did you really need Streak-2 launchers anyway?), this is just ridiculous. I'd meet you halfway and just say it's the launcher weight straight-up, missiles are in the tube- no half ton added or removed (so a one-shot Streak-2 weights 1.5 tons in that case).

It's still a bad weapon to ever consider, but at least it's not AS bad.

Actually, has anything ever mounted a one-shot LRM in canon? We've seen SRMs a few times like on the War Dog, Grand Titan, and Quickdraw, but I can't think of ever having seen an LRM.

[Kit deSummersville]

The worst lemon I can think of is the SRM-6. Fifteen salvos gets you  ninety rounds, while every other gives you one hundred. In theory, we should have at least sixteen salvos. I'd elaborate and say sixteen salvos and a single SRM-4 burst!

TT

Well, the AC-2 gives you 45 shots per ton (90 damage), every other (normal ammo) AC has 100 damage. Plus it's an AC-2.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The worst lemon I can think of is the SRM-6. Fifteen salvos gets you  ninety rounds, while every other gives you one hundred. In theory, we should have at least sixteen salvos. I'd elaborate and say sixteen salvos and a single SRM-4 burst!

TT

That would bother me if it weren't so hard to survive long enough to burn through an entire ton of SRM 6 ammo.

[Dark Jackal]

Actually, has anything ever mounted a one-shot LRM in canon? We've seen SRMs a few times like on the War Dog, Grand Titan, and Quickdraw, but I can't think of ever having seen an LRM.

Not that I know of.

The best use case for a reworked (OS), either just straight up weapon package or half original weight, would be any ground unit as add-on firepower package or a fast mover that would deliver it like ordnance such as Aerospace, Jet, or VTOL/STOL. For smallish vehs, like 5-15 ton range, they're perfect to add additional firepower without being overly costly to the unit as a whole. My own in-house rules (being half weight) has the system with gunships that mount them like Apache's and Hinds would on exterior pylons. So, my in-house Hind has twin LRM-5(OS) @ 2 tons, twin SRM-2(OS) @ 1 ton, and center MG @ 1 ton for just 4 tons of firepower on a shoot and scoot VTOL.

Another example, the 10-ton Tracked APC that has 1.5 tons for the mg/ammo could cut the ammo in half and fit a 0.5t (OS) SRM-2 System giving it a certain punch that is lacking. If the game devs played around with the concept I hope they would change the rules in the future seeing more interesting and flexible design possibilities by reworking a current system that quite frankly is bad.

[Col Toda]

The use of iOS launchers happen for only 3 reasons , 1 the original Clan design has just enough unaccounted tonnage to throw in an iOS SRM 2 so why not ( many 3050 models just check the math ) . 2 Combat Vehicle design you are working up has one space left and you are already at max armor the best thing is to put in an iOS , my favorite Streak SRM 4 as the ammo is never wasted . 3 Trailers with just a battery of multiple iOS launchers either for Urban hidden unit or air/ space field defense in that I can see a trailer with say 4 LRM 20s to shoot at enemy aircraft attacking the field . It gives you 2X the shots to hit and since weapon fire is simultaneous it fires it's whole damage potential so blowing it up is pointless . A LRM 20 normally does enough damage to force a control roll . A trailer next to an airfield is the ONLY place I could conceive that I would see an LRM iOS launchers period . 

[grimlock1]

The IS Medium Laser is the most heat efficient laser in the game. You could technically out DPS someone if you boated only IS Mediums and just have to worry about putting yourself in good roll ranges. Also, they're a lot easier to mount on ICE equipped units if you're into theory crafting and design.

You missed the second half of my sentence.  I was speaking of IS pulse lasers in both the medium and large calibers.

Also Clan weapons can load IS ammo, so that problem won't be an issue.

I presume that a Clan Streak 4 firing IS ammo is limited to 9 hexes rather than the Clan 12.

So to go back on topic Lemons Clan LB-X and ATM mechs with only one ton of ammo dedication for the weapon . Yes they exist look them up.

Depending on what else the unit is carrying, the single ton of LB ammo can be forgivable. This does not apply to carrying a single ton of AC 20 ammo.  That right there is a mortal sin.  But for LB 2's and 5's...  For those small calibers, all I need is the spam, paired with a hole puncher. The LB 10, on the other hand, any unit that doesn't bring a ton of each is just asking for a golden turd nomination.

[SCC]

I presume that a Clan Streak 4 firing IS ammo is limited to 9 hexes rather than the Clan 12.

The rules don't actually mention anything like that, so I'd assume that they actually have their reach of 12 hexes.

[grimlock1]

The rules don't actually mention anything like that, so I'd assume that they actually have their reach of 12 hexes.

:: squint ::
I wad about launch into a rant how that makes no physical sense but I remembered what forum I'm in.

[ANS Kamas P81]

:: squint ::
I wad about launch into a rant how that makes no physical sense but I remembered what forum I'm in.

It's not like the missiles are confirmed to explode at 270 meters away from the launcher; they just seem to sort of trail off.  If a Streak launcher shoots them farther, well, it's a better/more accurate/longer ranged launcher that's able to guide its missiles further downrange than an IS launcher would.

[Col Toda]

Being launched from a Clan launcher does not change the mass or effientcy of the propellant or the warhead electronics so IS missile ammo would have IS performance characteristics range brackets minimum range penalties ect . All you are getting is a lighter launcher with less expensive ammo . That is still a huge advantage . Inner Sphere ammo is more varied and flexible while Clan ammo has better performance in many cases . I prefer the ease of logistics and reduced cost of maintaining Inner Sphere equipment . Mixed tech becomes advanced by 3095 but the infrastructure to make Inner Sphere production models with one primary or two secondary Clan spec weapons does not start until 3130 . Even then since the Sea Foxes proved that Inner Sphere Clients are willing to pay 2-2.8 X for after market prices that will still be the going rate . Unless you are running an actual Clan unit it costs too much to field a lot of Clan equipment .

[CDAT]

The rules don't actually mention anything like that, so I'd assume that they actually have their reach of 12 hexes.

:: squint ::
I wad about launch into a rant how that makes no physical sense but I remembered what forum I'm in.

My only thought would be that it is not the fuel that limits the range, but the targeting system?

[Sir Chaos]

My only thought would be that it is not the fuel that limits the range, but the targeting system?

The early fluff, at least, says that missiles have much longer range than what is given in the rules, but can only HIT over those ranges because of the targeting systems. LRMs, for example, were fluffed to have a maximum flight range of several kilometers.

[The_Livewire]

It's not like the missiles are confirmed to explode at 270 meters away from the launcher; they just seem to sort of trail off.  If a Streak launcher shoots them farther, well, it's a better/more accurate/longer ranged launcher that's able to guide its missiles further downrange than an IS launcher would.

Well I guess he figures that IS SSRMs fired out of a clan launcher go 12 hexes?

[Daryk]

The early fluff, at least, says that missiles have much longer range than what is given in the rules, but can only HIT over those ranges because of the targeting systems. LRMs, for example, were fluffed to have a maximum flight range of several kilometers.

It's not just fluff... the extreme range and line of sight rules exist...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The early fluff, at least, says that missiles have much longer range than what is given in the rules, but can only HIT over those ranges because of the targeting systems. LRMs, for example, were fluffed to have a maximum flight range of several kilometers.

And the first page in the Batllemech Manual states that the ranges given are purely arbitrary because most people don't want to play on maps the size of tennis courts and like the way that faster units can maneuver in and out of weapon range instead of having everything come down to "I have line-of-sight, bang!"

[NeonKnight]

Yes. Page 36 of TOTAL WARFARE:

A NOTE ON SCALE AND THE RULES
BattleTech turns represent ten seconds of real time, while each hex on a mapsheet represents thirty meters of a battlefield (for the exception, see Aerospace Movement, p. 74). However, players should note that such “real world” terms are abstractions when applied to the board game. BattleTech is a game, not a detailed simulation. Therefore, the real world must take a back seat to game play—for simplicity, length of play, space required and simple enjoyment.

For example, while only a single ’Mech can occupy a hex, it does not actually take up the entire hex. A 30-meter-wide hex offers plenty of room for a twelve-meter-tall ’Mech to move around and avoid fire. In real-world terms, another ’Mech could easily fit in that space as well. However, for ease of play, a ’Mech tactically controls the hex it occupies even though it does not physically fill that space. Therefore, only a single ’Mech is allowed in a hex.

Weapon ranges provide another example. Players will quickly realize that the longest-range standard weapon in the game can only hit targets out to thirty hexes (900 meters) from the attacker. Real-world primary main battle tank weapons have operational targeting ranges in excess of 4,000 meters. Because BattleTech mapsheets are only seventeen hexes long, recreating real-world ranges on a table would require more than seven mapsheets laid end to end, for a playing space greater than twelve feet in length. Not many people have that type of table space, nor would it provide players with any tactical maneuvering room. Anywhere a player might move a unit on the map, an attacker could hit that unit.

Finally, the abstractions of real-world factors such as firing distance often can enhance the aesthetic of the game universe. BattleTech has always been about “in-your-face” combat, which works best with closer ranges. Players are encouraged to remember such abstractions and not get bogged down in real-world mechanics and physics. Just enjoy the game!

And Page 8 of the BATTLEMECH MANUAL:

A NOTE ON
REALISM AND SCALE
Given the 30-meter area of each hex stated above, players may note various oddities in the weapon ranges presented in this book, such as the fact that the standard ’Mech-scale machine gun of the distant thirty-first century only reaches out to 3 hexes (90 meters). As today’s machine guns have effective ranges of some 2,000 meters, this may seem somewhat absurd.

The reason for this is simple: BattleTech is a game. Because BattleTech mapsheets are only seventeen hexes long, recreating realworld ranges on a table would require more than seven mapsheets laid end to end, for a playing space greater than twelve feet in length. Few people have that much table space. Nor would it provide players with any tactical maneuvering room: anywhere a player might move a ’Mech on the map, an attacker could hit it. As such, while we may safely assume “real” BattleTech weapons have exceptional ranges, range abstractions are an absolute necesity unless one is regularly able to rent a tennis court for game time.

[Daryk]

And for completeness, page 85 of TacOps:

Extreme Range
Ranged weapons can fire at targets beyond long range, but such shots are difficult.
...

And further down the page:

LOS Range
For those playing truly large games across dozens of maps, players can institute LOS Range.  Note that for added realism, players can use the LOS Range rule in conjunction with the Visual Range Table found in the Double Blind rules (see p. 221), to provide a "hard number" of hexes that a player can visually see under a variety of Planetary Conditions: if you can see it, you can try to make an attack.
...

[YingJanshi]

And then you have the wrinkle of fiction following the game rules.  ;D  (Best not to overthink it too much...)

[Dark Jackal]

Also, the same iffy-ness in ranges also applies to other TT games that are based on somewhat realistic circumstances like WW2 miniatures. Most of the combat in those games have the combat elements fight with close proximity to terrain and features in order to enable engagement and strategy. After all, a typical 2-12km slug fest with super computers on 'Mechs would be side lined by bigger fish in the universe like Aerospace and Dropships. ~500 meter ball park average seems ok for BT.

[NeonKnight]

And then you have the wrinkle of fiction following the game rules.  ;D  (Best not to overthink it too much...)

Oh, you mean the 'rules guidelines' from Page 9 of Total Warfare ;):

FICTION VS. RULES
It is important to note that fiction, though essential in making the game universe come alive, should never be construed as rules. While BattleTech fiction usually attempts to adhere to the aesthetics established by the rules, authors often use creative license to accomplish the needs of a given story.

To eliminate confusion in Total Warfare about which sections are fiction and which are rules, the fiction sections have a unique look. In addition, all fiction sections are italicized in the Table of Contents.

FICTION AND ART
From the moment of BattleTech’s inception, it was conceived as a visually intensive universe. Though the Technical Readout series is one of the better examples of the importance of art in conveying the universe to a reader, every sourcebook employs art to work hand-in-hand with the fiction to bring the universe to life: from a stunning cover to the smallest illustration buried on a last page.

Even the graphic layout of rulebooks and sourcebooks—the borders around the edges of a page, how the words are placed on the page and so on—are specifically designed to accentuate the universe.

For Total Warfare, the graphic design concept is that of a computer interface. Specifically speaking, it is a computer from House Steiner’s (see A Time of War, p. 14) Nagelring; one of their premier military academies (for more information on House Steiner and specifically on the Nagelring, players should check out Handbook: House Steiner).

To further cement this concept directly into a reader’s mind, the art at the beginning of this section shows the very Nagelring military computer represented “in universe” by the text and layout of this rulebook.

Note that as with fiction, players should never construe art as rules. In a similar vein, while the diagrams used throughout this book are rules, players should note that the graphic icons within each diagram only represent specific unit types (‘Mechs, vehicles, infantry and so on). As such, players should not be confused by a specific unit image (such as the Mad Cat for the ‘Mech) used in an example, when its game stats do not mirror the example.

[SaltyDog325]

The rules don't actually mention anything like that, so I'd assume that they actually have their reach of 12 hexes.

On pg. 96 of Interstellar Operations under the Improved Standard Missile Launchers heading, it talks about how the Clans got the 12 hex range:
"Going a different direction, however, were the improved SRMs
that appeared a full year before the new LRMs. Utilizing more
powerful launch mechanisms, the early Clan weapons-makers
increased the SRMs’ effective range by one-third, even though
launchers themselves remained about the same weight and size as
their original counterparts."
Since they're talking about the launchers themselves, I'm thinking it's on the launcher side of things and not the ammo side.

[Von Jankmon]

I know that my lasting legacy to Battletech is going to be the Hellbie Dice meme, but Apollo's Law is one that I wouldn't mind people remembering me for someday.

You made two lasting memes though.  I only have only made one.