Would MechWarriors Actually Make Good Scouts?

[SCC]

All the way back to the beginning of BT the game has included at least the concept of scouting forces, even if the game itself didn't really allow for them.

I have to wonder if MechWarriors could actually perform this role, it's one that requires patience and careful at a minimum and those aren't exactly traits that spring to mind when envisioning a MechWarrior. Sure there probably are quite a few MechWarriors who naturally have the proper temperament, but in the classic set-up where you own your 'Mech, chances are that the people with this temperament aren't the ones that own the Light Mechs in your force.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

When it comes to explaining why scout mechs exist rather than letting smaller and therefore more stealthy units like tanks and mechanized infantry handle the job, I rationalize that mech scouts are pathfinders for larger bodies of mech formations.  They aren't necessarily trying to go undetected..  they're  identifying militarily significant terrain features and enemy deployment/dispositions... and most importantly of all potential ambushes along your axes of advance.  Indeed, going undetected can be counterproductive to identifying what troops are where if they don't scramble to intercept the probe.

Of course there's also the unrelated factor in raiding where all-mech forces are common.  One mechwarrior is cheaper to transport across the stars than an entire tank crew.

[grimlock1]

Modern militaries use small, lightly armored vehicles for scouting and reconnaissance tasks.  They are to and M1 Abrams what a Locust is to an Awesome.

As to the need for patience and discretion, I promise you if I was running recon in my family owned Spider and I found a 2 other light mechs, I would call it in and vacate the area! 

 As to vehicles being a better option, it depends. The only vehicle that could keep up with a mech, across any terrain would be a VTOL, which is not as durable as a mech. 

[SCC]

When it comes to explaining why scout mechs exist rather than letting smaller and therefore more stealthy units like tanks and mechanized infantry handle the job, I rationalize that mech scouts are pathfinders for larger bodies of mech formations.  They aren't necessarily trying to go undetected..  they're  identifying militarily significant terrain features and enemy deployment/dispositions... and most importantly of all potential ambushes along your axes of advance.  Indeed, going undetected can be counterproductive to identifying what troops are where if they don't scramble to intercept the probe.

The question wasn't about the machines, it was about the people piloting them.

Of course there's also the unrelated factor in raiding where all-mech forces are common.  One mechwarrior is cheaper to transport across the stars than an entire tank crew.

Yeah, once you figure we're talking about an all-'Mech force your idea doesn't make as much sense. And as for transport costs, are we using bays or not? Because that creates a significant difference.

Modern militaries use small, lightly armored vehicles for scouting and reconnaissance tasks.  They are to and M1 Abrams what a Locust is to an Awesome.

My reply to Tai Dai applies here as well. I'd also to point out that the primary scout vehicle of the US army is the M3 Bradley, which at 35 tons is about half the weight of the M1, which makes the Locust comparable to an armored car, weight wise.

As to the need for patience and discretion, I promise you if I was running recon in my family owned Spider and I found a 2 other light mechs, I would call it in and vacate the area! 

The general portrayal of MechWarriors does not suggest they are likely to under take such a wise course of action.

As to vehicles being a better option, it depends. The only vehicle that could keep up with a mech, across any terrain would be a VTOL, which is not as durable as a mech. 

A little bit, a VTOL can carry more armor then a 'Mech and unless your OP brings AA weapons it's likely to have a higher TMM then a Light 'Mech. And on more open terrain you can use hovercraft instead. And both hovercraft and VTOLs are likely to have a much greater warload then a Light 'Mech, giving them an edge in a fight.

[grimlock1]

The general portrayal of MechWarriors does not suggest they are likely to under take such a wise course of action.

Fiction does tend to do that.  What was the last movie you saw with humble fighter pilot?

[Nightlord01]

 }:)

Fiction does tend to do that.  What was the last movie you saw with humble fighter pilot?

That's true, but then again, there's Caradoc Trevena's recon company in one of the novels where they mostly scouted and pulled out or hit and run.

There are canon examples of these things, but Battletech is a fictional universe, quite different from reality.

[Weirdo]

Contrary to some portrayals in fiction, Mechwarriors are not all idiots. In fact, the average can be assumed to have an actual brain between those ears. Assuming a recon Mechwarrior is a moron is a great way to find an artillery salvo or assault battalion dropped on your head.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The question wasn't about the machines, it was about the people piloting them.

Well when it comes to the pilots themselves, I'm not sure what the question about temperament really is.  Even if one assumes that mechwarriors are all afflicted with Kzinti-itis, being the ones to go find ambushes would surely be highly appealing.  First into combat, and first chance to claim glory for one's dossier/resume/codex.

[Hellraiser]

When it comes to explaining why scout mechs exist rather than letting smaller and therefore more stealthy units like tanks and mechanized infantry handle the job, I rationalize that mech scouts are pathfinders for larger bodies of mech formations.  They aren't necessarily trying to go undetected..  they're  identifying militarily significant terrain features and enemy deployment/dispositions... and most importantly of all potential ambushes along your axes of advance.  Indeed, going undetected can be counterproductive to identifying what troops are where if they don't scramble to intercept the probe.

Of course there's also the unrelated factor in raiding where all-mech forces are common.  One mechwarrior is cheaper to transport across the stars than an entire tank crew. 

THIS ^^^

Scouting half a day away is the job of some infantry in a borrowed civilian car to blend in or even a Swift Wind.

Light Mechs are for scouting 5 minutes/clicks ahead of your vanguard looking find ambushes before the entire battalion commits.

[glitterboy2098]

pretty much. the light mech and fast medium fills the role of the light cavalry or infantry skirmish line in historical warfare.. to range out ahead of the main formation in loose formation or small groups, to probe the terrain, find the enemy, and retreat back to report the location. the advent of portable radios has made this more efficient, and the troops the skirmishers are scouting for don't march in lines and blocks anymore, but the basic role hasn't changes in a long time.

the reason you'd want a mech for this role is basically that you want your recon vehicles doing this role to have the same mobility limits as the main formation.. since part of the job is also to enter the terrain and report on its condition and whether the main group will need to change course.

[Bosefius]

To answer the original question, without getting into equipment, better suited units, etc, yes. The TROs often discuss famous mechwarriors that show all the traits of a good scout. Right off the top of my head is Chowla with the Mongoose. But there are a lot of examples, it's a matter of training your scout mech pilots to a different standard than your line pilots. And, of course, looking for a different temperament in the first place. But yes, the fiction is full of examples of excellent mech scouts.

[glitterboy2098]

pretty much. each pilot will be different, and gravitate towards roles (scouting, fire support, etc) that they feel most comfortable with. though in the days when mechs were family heirlooms, you probably would see more example of mismatch between pilot personality and the mech's role, since the military force can't shuffle people around to match skills to mechs as easily.

[Kidd]

I'd also to point out that the primary scout vehicle of the US army is the M3 Bradley, which at 35 tons is about half the weight of the M1, which makes the Locust comparable to an armored car, weight wise.

Slight distinction: the "primary scout vehicle" of the US Army is arguably the Humvee, or a pair of boots - dismounted soldiers on foot (often Special Forces) getting around by Humvee, Bradley or Stryker is the main ground scouting unit, other than aircraft, drones and satellites that is.

The M3 Bradley is defined as a "cavalry scout" - the difference is that Bradleys have a slightly more aggressive role, being designed to attack the enemy's scouts, and transport and provide fire support to the abovementioned dismounted scouts. Equipped with not-insignificant armour and firepower, Bradleys have a certain life expectancy that more expendable scouts don't. Army vets, feel free to correct me.

Splitting hairs perhaps. But its the difference in Alpha Strike between Recon lances and Probe/Sweep Lances.

In Battletech, I think satellites, aircraft, VTOLs, hovercraft and infantry all are more suitable scout units than Mechs - the latter particularly useful as static observation posts. The heavier Light Mechs, like Bradleys, are useful for being less susceptible to destruction and disablement than an infantry squad or Ferret VTOL.

[Nav_Alpha]

There’s probably people better qualified in these forums, but I’ll speak as a former cavalry scout.
I used to drive APCs before making the mind boggling choice to swap to being one of the guys who gets out of said track and humps all that equipment to the place said track can’t drive into.
For the most part, recon - real recon - is carried out by those guys on foot. They can breach terrain tracks or trucks can’t access. They’re also very quiet, have the ability to camouflage into the scenery and don’t require all that much fuel (you can go a long time without re-supping food).
Most importantly, they can hike to a target, sit down and radio back to base what the enemy looks like and how many rounds of HE we need on target.

The counterpoint is moving fast, spotting things, calling it back to base and moving on at high speed. And when you run into trouble - you open up with several bursts of .50 tracer and keep moving.
That’s basically a Battlemech - a light, scout, Battlemech.
Find the enemy, report it in, have the ability to put some rounds down range that will hurt/scare the hell out of soft enemies and keep moving.

The question of “do Mechwarriors make good scouts” is kinda redundant to my thinking.
We have fighter pilots who are assigned to scout craft, we have soldiers assigned to APCs and Bushmasters, etc. Soldiers are taught, they’re crafted by trainers and their branch.
If you can’t adapt you’re dropped.
Sure - everyone wants to drive an Atlas/Abrams/Harrier - but if the Green Machine decides your MOS is driving a scout craft... that’s what you’ll do.

Obviously, 3025 is a different era. But I could see generations after generation handing down the Locust would include a focus on “son, you’re the sixth generation to handle this Locust... we are a scout family. Get used to it!”

[Kidd]

There’s probably people better qualified in these forums, but I’ll speak as a former cavalry scout.
I used to drive APCs before making the mind boggling choice to swap to being one of the guys who gets out of said track and humps all that equipment to the place said track can’t drive into.

those are impeccable credentials for this subject mate.

[grimlock1]

Obviously, 3025 is a different era. But I could see generations after generation handing down the Locust would include a focus on “son, you’re the sixth generation to handle this Locust... we are a scout family. Get used to it!”

We did see something like this in cannon.  Kai's girlfriend at the academy came from a long line of Davion Heavy Guards

[Nav_Alpha]

We did see something like this in cannon.  Kai's girlfriend at the academy came from a long line of Davion Heavy Guards

And we see her piloting a Devestator and kicking arse. But I reckon if you're a Chowla, etc and your people all piloted Moongoose through history, your family training is probably going to revolve around cam and concealment from a very young age.

[ANS Kamas P81]

The counterpoint is moving fast, spotting things, calling it back to base and moving on at high speed. And when you run into trouble - you open up with several bursts of .50 tracer and keep moving.
That’s basically a Battlemech - a light, scout, Battlemech.
Find the enemy, report it in, have the ability to put some rounds down range that will hurt/scare the hell out of soft enemies and keep moving.

The 'Mech is more of a recon/scout hunter - that squad of infantry is gonna get spotted and hosed down with MG fire or SRMs or whatever while the 'Mech reports contact with a recon element at its position and moves on.  A true cavalry scout, I'd say would be more like the Blitzkrieg.  Stupidly fast, but like the Bradley's TOWs it's got some bite.

[massey]

In the early Succession Wars, there were probably a lot of different layers of scouting and recon.  When dropships arrive to attack a planet, they could release "disposable" satellites to establish their own GPS systems and to scan the planet.  They'd also have ASFs do high speed fly-bys of target areas.  You'd have air-dropped sensor pods that could relay info to you until they were disabled by the enemy.  You'd have light hovercraft, VTOLs, light motorized infantry squads, etc, moving about the battlefield.  And then you'd have light mechs performing raids and acting as advance scouts maybe an hour or two ahead of the main force.

By the 3rd SW, a lot of the non-mech stuff would have been scrapped to save money.  People just made use of what they had and what they could maintain.  By the 4th SW and later, people started rebuilding their non-mech forces, but they wouldn't have necessarily done it in a way that makes sense to our modern mindsets.  They would have had their own assumptions about how war is "supposed to be" fought, and that's what would have guided their resource allocation.



Part of me wants to fully detail an average Inner Sphere world, and all the stuff that their defense forces are supposed to have, and the reasons why.  And do it in a way that makes the game itself make sense.

[Daryk]

*snip*
Part of me wants to fully detail an average Inner Sphere world, and all the stuff that their defense forces are supposed to have, and the reasons why.  And do it in a way that makes the game itself make sense.

There was a BattleTechnology article about Mira that basically did exactly this.  I think it was the issue with the Vindicator on the cover...

[Nightlord01]

There was a BattleTechnology article about Mira that basically did exactly this.  I think it was the issue with the Vindicator on the cover...

The historical reason this sort of thing doesn't happen is it is a massive burden on authors and players, for very little gain.

Spelling out every planet, or even just a significant amount of them, would take an immense amount of time, effort and resources. It would also decrease the flexibility of campaign generation and story writers.

While it is true that very little of the canon actually makes a great deal of sense, particularly from the initial stage of development, it's been outright stated that most planets have their own militia with it's own infantry and vehicles, so it's not hard to go from there.

*snip*
By the 3rd SW, a lot of the non-mech stuff would have been scrapped to save money.  People just made use of what they had and what they could maintain.  By the 4th SW and later, people started rebuilding their non-mech forces, but they wouldn't have necessarily done it in a way that makes sense to our modern mindsets.  They would have had their own assumptions about how war is "supposed to be" fought, and that's what would have guided their resource allocation.
*snip*

Not even close! Vehicles were about the only thing the successor states could build from scratch, as a result they proliferated throughout the Succession Wars in all realms. If anything the Star League likely used light mech recon in force, with the Successor States using vehicles and light mechs being front line combatants. Of course, those new build vehicles all had ICE power plants and low tech weapons and sensors, but the Successor States could build them in relatively large numbers and that made up for it.

[Daryk]

So, looking back at my BattleTechnology magazines, it looks like they went into that level of detail three times (Brimstone in 0101, Wheel in 0201, and Mira in 0203).  The feature was called "Worldbook", and though it appeared later as well, it never went into the detail of the first three.  Each of the first three articles had about two-thirds to one page of raw data, followed by one to three pages of descriptive text.  Mira was notable for its high level of just about everything being supported by a population just shy of 3 billion.  Here's its "Armed Forces" data block (which I'm sure has been repudiated by TPTB long since):

"ARMED FORCES:
Defense Spending: 9.5% of GDP; Military Manpower Potential: 208,320,000 (7%); Aerospace Forces: Orbital Facilities: 3, Deep Space Facilities: 0, JumpShips: 12, DropShips: 60, AeroSpace Fighters: 95, Escorts: 8, Monitors: 4, Cruisers: 3; Battalions: Infantry: 529, Armor: 41, Air: 226, Mech: 9; MechWarrior Training Facilities: 6; Hiring Data: D/F/N"

The scenarios set on Mira in that issue were centered around a Capellan battalion that was "smuggled" on planet to conduct reconnaissance (which could almost be a link to the OP's original question... ::)).  Somehow they avoided complete annihilation and were able to withdraw a remnant, but there's no discussion of how they avoided interdiction on the way to the jump point.

Wheels' similar data block is mostly zeroes, as the population listed there was only 2,400.  They were given 6 DropShips, 12 AeroSpace Fighters and a "battalion-sized paramilitary militia" with four branches.

Brimstone split the difference, having a population of 12,675,693.  Though given a Military Manpower Potential of 3,897,774 (35%) due to being a mining colony, it only had 3 DropShips, 6 AeroSpace Fighters and 3 Infantry Battalions.

I think Brimstone and Wheel were largely in line with what people generally think about the 3025 era, and being sparsely populated on the fringes of the Inner Sphere, they make sense to be that way.  Mira might seem jarring, but it was a front line planet on the eve of the 4th Succession War.  Issue 0203 was published in 1988, so I think it's reasonable to say that the whole population/size of militaries debate goes back at least that far.

To your point about "spelling out every planet" in that level of detail, the Worldbook articles had this kind of blurb appended to them:

"About Worldbook
Worldbook is a BattleTechnology feature drawn from the computer files of The Navigator's Guide to the Inner Sphere, the 32-volume compendium of explored worlds published by ComStar Press Interstellar, Terra.  Mira was first printed in Volume 5, the Mirach Reach, and is reproduced here by permission of the publisher."

[glitterboy2098]

Not even close! Vehicles were about the only thing the successor states could build from scratch, as a result they proliferated throughout the Succession Wars in all realms. If anything the Star League likely used light mech recon in force, with the Successor States using vehicles and light mechs being front line combatants. Of course, those new build vehicles all had ICE power plants and low tech weapons and sensors, but the Successor States could build them in relatively large numbers and that made up for it.

on the otherhand, non-ICE vehicles were usually scrapped, for their fusion engines. the only ones that weren't generally fall into the category of "don't use engines a mech can use"

since most light vehicles need fusion engines to get the speed or firepower they need to be combat effective, you don;t see as many fast light vehicles that could fill in for a light mech.

[guardiandashi]

one thing you have to do is get into (at least a little) the mindset of the people of "battletech"
while "disposable" resources such as drones, infantry and conventional vehicles would likely do a better job at some roles like scouting its the "job" of mechs to do everything they can do.

for instance if you were being completely honest tossing out some recon sats, backed up with drones, and vehicles and mechs backing them up makes a lot of sense that's hot how it usually plays out in universe.

the mech has the advantage in that it can go places where a conventional vehicle may not be able to go (it is typically somewhat slower) and the drones and such really aren't that common for a number of reasons

[SCC]

"ARMED FORCES:
Defense Spending: 9.5% of GDP; Military Manpower Potential: 208,320,000 (7%); Aerospace Forces: Orbital Facilities: 3, Deep Space Facilities: 0, JumpShips: 12, DropShips: 60, AeroSpace Fighters: 95, Escorts: 8, Monitors: 4, Cruisers: 3; Battalions: Infantry: 529, Armor: 41, Air: 226, Mech: 9; MechWarrior Training Facilities: 6; Hiring Data: D/F/N"

What are these Monitors? And those other military navel types listed with it? Are they watercraft or spacecraft?

[guardiandashi]

What are these Monitors? And those other military navel types listed with it? Are they watercraft or spacecraft?

the monitors are either the monitor class blue water navy, or they are monitor type, non jump capable black water (space)warships

[victor_shaw]

The main issues with this is defining scouting for the question.
Military speaking there are dozens of types of scouting missions.
Some need speed: Long range force recon
Some need stealth: Intelligence gathering missions
Some just need you to fine the enemy before he finds you: Pathfinders, Rangers etc.
Overall the type of personnel and/or equipment/vehicles used will depend on the type of scouting you are doing.
Can mechwarriors make good scouts. This depends on the mechwarrior and the type of mission.
So the answer is maybe?

 

[Nightlord01]

The main issues with this is defining scouting for the question.
Military speaking there are dozens of types of scouting missions.
Some need speed: Long range force recon
Some need stealth: Intelligence gathering missions
Some just need you to fine the enemy before he finds you: Pathfinders, Rangers etc.
Overall the type of personnel and/or equipment/vehicles used will depend on the type of scouting you are doing.
Can mechwarriors make good scouts. This depends on the mechwarrior and the type of mission.
So the answer is maybe?

The military doesn't use the term scouting, for this exact reason, there's no set, limited definition. Militarily you have Reconnaissance, Surveillance and Intelligence Gathering. You choose the most suitable asset from what is available and send it off to perform the task you want performed. This is relatively recent, only came in with Effects Based Warfare doctrine. So we don't have scout assets, we have assets with utility that is complementary to the tasked mission.

For the question at hand, yes, mechwarriors would make excellent reconnaissance pilots, able to look see and report swiftly, with the speed to get away from pretty much anything they can't destroy and great mobility over land. They would make reasonable surveillance pilots, but lack a bit in field of view. They would make terrible Intelligence Gatherers, due to observability, low antennas and general non-suitability for the role.

on the otherhand, non-ICE vehicles were usually scrapped, for their fusion engines. the only ones that weren't generally fall into the category of "don't use engines a mech can use"

since most light vehicles need fusion engines to get the speed or firepower they need to be combat effective, you don;t see as many fast light vehicles that could fill in for a light mech.

What do you expect your light vehicle to do? The first agenda item is always "What do you want from this?" You then pick your asset! Some vehicles like the Savannah Master or Gabriel are perfectly suited because they don't use SFEs in the sizes that any mech would, while others like the Warrior H-7 are great surveillance assets, able to see much further than any mech. Most light vehicle designs are not promulgated, because Battletech is about Battlemechs, even if there is a strong market for vehicles.

[CDAT]

There’s probably people better qualified in these forums, but I’ll speak as a former cavalry scout.
I used to drive APCs before making the mind boggling choice to swap to being one of the guys who gets out of said track and humps all that equipment to the place said track can’t drive into.
For the most part, recon - real recon - is carried out by those guys on foot. They can breach terrain tracks or trucks can’t access. They’re also very quiet, have the ability to camouflage into the scenery and don’t require all that much fuel (you can go a long time without re-supping food).
Most importantly, they can hike to a target, sit down and radio back to base what the enemy looks like and how many rounds of HE we need on target.

The counterpoint is moving fast, spotting things, calling it back to base and moving on at high speed. And when you run into trouble - you open up with several bursts of .50 tracer and keep moving.
That’s basically a Battlemech - a light, scout, Battlemech.
Find the enemy, report it in, have the ability to put some rounds down range that will hurt/scare the hell out of soft enemies and keep moving.

The question of “do Mechwarriors make good scouts” is kinda redundant to my thinking.
We have fighter pilots who are assigned to scout craft, we have soldiers assigned to APCs and Bushmasters, etc. Soldiers are taught, they’re crafted by trainers and their branch.
If you can’t adapt you’re dropped.
Sure - everyone wants to drive an Atlas/Abrams/Harrier - but if the Green Machine decides your MOS is driving a scout craft... that’s what you’ll do.

Obviously, 3025 is a different era. But I could see generations after generation handing down the Locust would include a focus on “son, you’re the sixth generation to handle this Locust... we are a scout family. Get used to it!”

I think that this last part is probably the best statement for this. Like Nav_Alpha I was trained in the 19 series but I was trained in the K not D end. I see MechWarriors as coming  from tankers of today not fighter pilots as some do, with this thought like others I think it would depend on the background and training for lots of it. As a tanker we got some training at basic on doing recon, but to be honest most of use never do anything with it after basic and even there did not care much. Where as the scouts did care and took great pride in there ability to see and not be seen. So what is my point? Like others I think that you would have different types of MechWarriors like today you have different sub-specialties in most military MOS's as something that makes you a good scout may not make you a good front line fighter.

I also see scouts as used mostly in battletech more as pointmen.

[Hellraiser]

the monitors are either the monitor class blue water navy, or they are monitor type, non jump capable black water (space)warships

I'm guessing blue water as the black water article hadn't even been printed yet IIRC.