TRO Succession Wars ommissions

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

While I get that the Macross inspired mechs all got left out due to the current legal issues with HG (though following that thread, it seems they've shot themselves in the foot and tried to treat the wound with cyanide, so hopefully it will get resolved quickly), there are some other mechs that seem like they should have been in the book but aren't.

Specifically, the Striker, Spartan, and Merlin from 5058 stand out by their absence.  So I was wondering why they didn't make it into the book?

[Deadborder]

The Merlin was in there. The Striker's absence is odd, though, especially given some of the other choices.

The Spartan allways was a rare 'Mech, with most of those that survived the Succession Wars only existing in the ComGuard. So it's absence is understandable.

[glitterboy2098]

the Spartan was a Comstar Exclusive between the fall of the SLDF and the clan invasion, so might not have been seen as needing added, since Comstar officially did not have a military at the time. (and these are framed as in universe documents.. mainly assembled by Comstar for publication across the IS.)

the Striker probably ought to have been there. while there were less than 300 that survived the fall of the star league, we have designs (like the Clint) which were supposed to be just as rare, yet did get included.

[truetanker]

Your forgetting the Cronus and the Icarus II.

I can see the Icarus not being a lot, but it did survive the SW and was retooled in '73, but the Cronus has always been around, serving the Solaris fights since 3031.

TT

[Juodas Varnas]

Pretty sure it also omitted the Scorpion and Goliath for no reason whatsoever (apart from them being Dougram Unseens that weren't given new artwork, but that'd be a pretty dumb reason not to include them entirely).
It's not like they were exceptionally rare or anything (pretty sure there were more of Scorpions and Goliaths during the Succession Wars than bloody King Crabs).

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

the Spartan was a Comstar Exclusive between the fall of the SLDF and the clan invasion, so might not have been seen as needing added, since Comstar officially did not have a military at the time. (and these are framed as in universe documents.. mainly assembled by Comstar for publication across the IS.)

Yeah, but the Thunderhawk was completely extinct until production resumed in the 3050s but it still made the list.  It never even got a downgraded variant like the Pillager or King Crab.

[Deadborder]

Pretty sure it also omitted the Scorpion and Goliath for no reason whatsoever (apart from them being Dougram Unseens that weren't given new artwork, but that'd be a pretty dumb reason not to include them entirely).
It's not like they were exceptionally rare or anything (pretty sure there were more of Scorpions and Goliaths during the Succession Wars than bloody King Crabs).

I suspect they were excluded because they were Quads; there aren't any in the TRO at all.

[Deadborder]

Yeah, but the Thunderhawk was completely extinct until production resumed in the 3050s but it still made the list.  It never even got a downgraded variant like the Pillager or King Crab.

The Thunder Hawk served in the Successor State millitaries during the early Succession Wars. The Spartan didn't

[Juodas Varnas]

I suspect they were excluded because they were Quads; there aren't any in the TRO at all.

Well, since they should be the only ones in the TRO anyway. (Maybe the Xanthos too, but it's considered Extinct as far as i know, not that it prevented some of the other extinct mechs making into the TRO...)

If they were truly excluded just because they're Quads, i do not comprehend any possible reason why they would do that.

[Deadborder]

Well, since they should be the only ones in the TRO anyway. (Maybe the Xanthos too, but it's considered Extinct as far as i know, not that it prevented some of the other extinct mechs making into the TRO...)

If they were truly excluded just because they're Quads, i do not comprehend any possible reason why they would do that.

Because Quads require their own special rules in a TRO that was meant to be largely newcomer friendly. Plus, Quads have never featured in any external Battletech Media, such as computer games.

Added to that, it was likely that the "Classics" art for the pair of them wasn't ready (And was probably a low priority to begin with)

[Juodas Varnas]

Because Quads require their own special rules in a TRO that was meant to be largely newcomer friendly. Plus, Quads have never featured in any external Battletech Media, such as computer games.

Added to that, it was likely that the "Classics" art for the pair of them wasn't ready (And was probably a low priority to begin with)

Tarantula was featured in Mechwarrior 2

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, but that was one level and they fudged the mech to make it function with MW2's engine so it wasn't really a quad.

[Deadborder]

Tarantula was featured in Mechwarrior 2

I forgot that, true. But even then, it was in a single mission and wasn't even a playable unit. So it's not like that's exactly a high-profile appearance.

[Juodas Varnas]

I forgot that, true. But even then, it was in a single mission and wasn't even a playable unit. So it's not like that's exactly a high-profile appearance.

Well... It was playable with a cheat code (which was a totally normal thing back in the day!)

[Hellraiser]

serving the Solaris fights since 3031.

There is your answer right there TT.

The last "Succession War" ended a year before it was created  ;)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There is your answer right there TT.

The last "Succession War" ended a year before it was created  ;)

The Hatamoto-Chi wasn't introduced until 3039 and it made the cut.

[Deadborder]

The Hatamoto-Chi wasn't introduced until 3039 and it made the cut.

The War of 3039 is a part of the Succession Wars era

Being fair though, the Cronus is a rather overlooked design, especially in it's introtech version. It's not helped by the ugly TRO3067 art. The introtech Cronus was a retroactive inclusion, and even then it's barely been mentioned.

[Sartris]

I have the following missing from TRO:SW apart from the obvious unseens. Some are fairly obvious (eg the Von Rohrs or Liberator) others less so

Hornet
Jackrabbit
Sling
Toro
Liberator
Wyvern
Starslayer
Alfar
Cronus
Lynx
Champion
Cestus
Crossbow
Koschei
Von Rohrs
Dragoon
Helipolis
Spartan
Striker
Daboku (Mauler)
Annihilator
Atlas II
Imp
Xanthos

[RoundTop]

Hornet - Used almost exclusively by Wolf's Dragoons until 3051
Jackrabbit - Was in Comstar stockpiles and not seen until the Jihad
Sling - Was taken by the exodus group (was only a prototype)
Toro - 2598 factory was dismantled. Wasn't resurrected until Jihad
Liberator - Only 3 prototypes made
Wyvern - 2835 last factory destroyed. Each successor state only had a couple. Comstar had most.
Starslayer - ceased production during 2nd succession war - Only resumed after clan invasion
Alfar -  The last two remaining, privately-owned 'Mechs are believed to have been destroyed in the First Succession War
Cronus - Small amount being produced in 3031 by hand (not factory made)
Lynx - Factory destroyed 2928, Production resumed 3056.
Champion - only a handful available outside Comstar until Tukkayyid
Cestus - Factory destroyed in 2SW. Production resumed 3055
Crossbow - Factory shut down 2550. Only a few hundred produced
Koschei - By the time of the Succession Wars there were few such 'Mechs on the battlefield. Resumed during Jihad.
Von Rohrs - Another super early mech. 2518 last one disassembled.
Dragoon - Kerensky ordered it destroyed. Extinct before 3SW
Helepolis - 2775 factory destroyed. Gone by 3SW.
Spartan - the Spartan is one of the rarest 'Mechs in the Inner Sphere, with less than two dozen left in known service as of 3067.  Also, factory destroyed during Amaris coup.
Striker - After the destruction of the Stormvanger lines in 2867, fewer than 300 Strikers were known to exist.
Daboku (Mauler) - This one you could make a case for. It came out in 3038 (prototype) and then the 3040s (production)
Annihilator - Exclusive to the dragoons until the jihad.
Atlas II - All went with the clans
Imp - Went with the clans - Came back only with Wolf's Dragoons
Xanthos - The design became extinct by the time of the Second Succession War.


So of that entire list, the only one which could really be considered would be the Daboku/Mauler. But even that is right on the edge of the timing. Only really the prototype was available during the succession wars.

[LightGuard]

Edit: RoundTop beat me to the post. Spent too much time doing research...

Almost none of your indicated models should be considered for inclusion in TRO:SW. The ones that could be considered missing were probably cut for page count. See your local Green, Yellow (Probably not Kit...) or Purple 'Beemer for that specific answer.

Hornet - Didn't Kallon lose the ability to make it? Per TRO3039, it was just recovered at the end of the 3rd Succession War, and those produced mostly went to mercenaries due to the Valkyrie. Wolf's Dragoons were probably the heaviest users and it was their success that brought it to the FedSuns attention.

Jackrabbit - Kerensky fought them on Terra during his assault. Draw your own conclusions... ;)

Sling - Only prototypes left with Kerensky's Exodus per TRO3060 and Operation Klondike, Mountain Wolf on Vendrell was destroyed in 2945 per TRO3058. Where Talon Zhan found the Sling blueprints, I have no data.

Toro - Star League made this one completely extinct during Reunification Wars, last known surviving model destroyed when Samantha was hit by an asteroid during Jihad. Retrotech models only saw production during Jihad.

Liberator - Wasn't this a Boondoggle?

Wyvern - TRO3039 indicates it's still going but quantities were very minimal.

Alfar - Age of War design, built with non-standard parts. Any potentially extant models would be nonfunctional museum pieces with no value in refitting for even Succession Wars battlefields due to time and cost.

Lynx - Factory ate a nuke and then attrition killed it off, per TRO 3058.

Champion - Factory was destroyed in 2776, per TRO3039 and then New Earth became the first ComStar Protectorate.

Cestus - Line destroyed during the Second Succession Wars and probably went the way of the Lynx.

Crossbow - Discontinued in 2550, TRO3075 entry reads like they were completely gone before 2776.

Koschei - Line was shut down in 2714, upgrades came online in 2719 but no one really wanted it and it went the way of the Cestus, Lynx, and Xanthos.

Dragoon - See Jackrabbit.

Helipolis - Factory destroyed in 2775 on Graham IV, and almost everything from Graham IV has almost no extant models during the Succession Wars.

Spartan - Rare even in production, only ever produced by Martinson on Terra and ComStar mothballed them pre-First Succession War.

Striker - ...this one, even out of production due to Stormvanger's destruction, was only found in any kind of strength in CCAF and LCAF.

Daboku - Designed in 3036, debuted in 3038 of which only 300 were built and those built were lost or destroyed during the War of 3039 because they were considered so heavily flawed by all parties per TRO3039. The Daboku did not see full production until the 3040s, and even then as the Mauler.

Annihilator - Wolf's Dragoons design.

Atlas II - Hegemony R&D, Weapons Division, New Earth (Destroyed probably 2767, TRO3075 says 2667 which predates the 2755 design date mentioned in the first two lines of Overview), all models left for Kerensky's Exodus.

Imp - Clan Homeworlds design. Never produced in the Sphere until Dragoon's arrived.

Xanthos - They threw these in the junkyard and let them rust after Hollis went bankrupt, reconsolidated, and started making BattleMasters. Even then, all known models that did see service, at least with the CCAF, were lost by or during the Second Succession War. Essentially a Liao exclusive even if you consider it active during the entirety of the Succession Wars.

[Kit deSummersville]

Liberator - Wasn't this a Boondoggle?

Yeah, a few extra rules would be needed to handle that one. Or just let it blow up by turn 5.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Heleopolis's absence isn't a surprise, since it uses Advanced rules it wouldn't be a good inclusion for what's supposed to be a starter book.

[Wrangler]

Nevermind.  :-X

[Maelwys]

Starslayer - ceased production during 2nd succession war - Only resumed after clan invasion

Yeah, but isn't this the exact same fluff as the Spector? And yet that unit was included. And the fluff from that is even worse, as it describes (in the original writeup) as being forgotten about until 3048 or so. The Thunderhawk fluff says that all the surviving ones went with Kerensky. Sure, that doesn't mean the production line was lost, but presumably the production line was lost at some point. The Pillager says that production stopped during the Second Succession War...and yet it was included.

[LightGuard]

I can't believe I forgot the Starslayer!

Starslayer - According to TRO3058U, this seems to have stayed in some sort of production (or had warehouses of them) from 2765 through the Succession Wars, with the 2C variant marked as active during that time period. This is also despite the lack of Ferro-Fibrous production from 2810 through 3040 (TM PDF, 3rd Printing, pg 205). However, this is explicitly described as an LCAF and LAAF design in TRO3058U; combine that with the lack of F-F production and it's possibly not common enough to include.

Now, we've been collating data from multiple TROs. One should always remember that Ray, Brent, and Randall developed this product to bring in new users who won't have *all* the original Technical Readouts. These are the same folks who deserve a rather beefy compilation of 'Mechs without having to invest in at least 10 books.

Also, according to the Introduction, this isn't even meant to be a be-all-end-all of BattleMechs but rather a loosely compiled list from the Age of War through 3040, created by the ilClan and it's Loremaster Stephan Roshak. We don't have any storyline for 3250 at this point, either, so why does it matter what 'Mech is missing? There could be another compilation coming to cover that as well once ilClan, or whatever they call the post-3150 storyline book, is published.

[Wrangler]

Isn't the key to this is the TRO covers the entire era?  Mechs that were active in say the First Succession War, count as being active.
The Striker (Assault Mech) survived the entire Era, even in low low numbers should count.

A Number of mechs in the original TRO: 3025 were out of production, but they still were in large enough numbers (rebuilt or otherwise) to keep fighting in the Succession Wars.  The Executioner from TRO: 3025 Revised was briefly in production as a Wolverine replacement but didn't work out. It was out production before the 31st Century rang on New Years Eve of 3001.

[Daemion]

Yeah. What is the purpose of TR: Succession Wars, again? Is it to expand the list of Mechs to new players so they have something to dink around with using IntroTech equipment? Or, is it to showcase Mechs that survived the Star League and made it through the Succession Wars?

Is rarity an actual consideration? It wasn't for the larger TRos - The Grasshopper, according to its write-up, was a complete unknown to most military units until Comstars Technical Readout 3025 brought it to light. The Goliath is so rare that there's only one recorded instance of a Goliath on Goliath duel.

Is Faction specificity an actual consideration? The Centurion is a common enough design, but it's described as an iconic design to the Fed Suns in an unofficial capacity. Each house has one or more designs that they've made in-house that have proliferated into their forces.

It sounds like there's a bit of a schizophrenic selection process involved. Now, most of the list of Mechs not included I can agree with. But, there are a handful I look at in askance because, as is being discussed in the Mech extinction thread, 'Out of Production' doesn't mean rare. The Firestarter and Ostscout relied solely on parts stores for most of the Succession Wars period, but can still be found everywhere.

[RoundTop]

I can answer why TRO: Succession Wars exists.

TRO:3025, TRO:3039, and TRO:2750 are all out of print.  In order to support the line, Catalyst needed a TRO product for this time period, and reprinting all 3 of the earlier ones was not possible. So TRO: Succession Wars exists.

[Sartris]

Edit: RoundTop beat me to the post. Spent too much time doing research...

Almost none of your indicated models should be considered for inclusion in TRO:SW. The ones that could be considered missing were probably cut for page count.

I’m just the neighborhood make pointless lists guy. Nothing excluded bothered me - in some cases like the hornet I was pleased. Keep that booboo away from new players at all costs.

I would agree page count was probably a leading factor. I thought I remember someone explaining that there are hard page counts for printing price points and I imagine that weighed heavily. Had this latest round of machinations by the California turd corporation not intervened, there would have been even more omissions, I assume.

Also this is a no quads club. Xanthos go home.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I can answer why TRO: Succession Wars exists.

TRO:3025, TRO:3039, and TRO:2750 are all out of print.  In order to support the line, Catalyst needed a TRO product for this time period, and reprinting all 3 of the earlier ones was not possible. So TRO: Succession Wars exists.

Negative.  If that were the issue it would have been cheaper and easier to do a reprint of TRO: 3039.  The reason is because the Battlemech Manual was just released, and TRO Succession Wars was printed to support it: notice that neither book has anything about any unit type other than mechs.