Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Upgrade Thread

[gyedid]

I'm currently bereft of any BT unit design software, so I can't actually post any suggestions of my own.  Anybody want to take a stab at upgrading the T-12 Tiger tank from Historical:  Reunification War?

The write-up is at:

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,9508.0.html]http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,9508.0.html[/url]

cheers,

Gabe

[Marwynn]

I'd start with a RAC5 to replace the AC10 and swap the srm with an mml.

Or a Plasma Rifle instead with a fusion upgrade.

[A. Lurker]

The simplest upgrade I can think of is replacing the autocannon with an LB-X model and putting the ton freed up that way into more armor. My personal version of that also upgrades to ferro-fibrous (currently distributed 30/25/20/25, might juggle the numbers some more in the future) and deletes the rear-mounted MG in favor of CASE, but tastes may differ in that regard.

[gyedid]

I don't remember...do Gauss Rifles require power amps on ICE vehicles?  I'd like to suggest replacing the AC/10 with a light Gauss, turning the Tiger into a sniper, but if a power amp is needed then the tonnage isn't there.

cheers,

Gabe

[A. Lurker]

I don't remember...do Gauss Rifles require power amps on ICE vehicles?  I'd like to suggest replacing the AC/10 with a light Gauss, turning the Tiger into a sniper, but if a power amp is needed then the tonnage isn't there.

cheers,

Gabe

I like to think that they really should (how else are you going to get those massive capacitor banks back to full charge within seconds -- with hand-cranked dynamos?), but by the book they don't because they're not energy weapons. You need a fusion or fission engine to specifically install a heavy Gauss rifle, but all the other models get a bye.

[sillybrit]

There's always a switch to a Fuel Cell engine, that'll free you 8 tons and add a SHS before you even look at altering the armament.

I'd favor a Fuel Cell Omni version, so that it could take advantage of all the armament suggestions already offered, plus LRM fire support. energy weapon and even artillery configurations. With a 2t turret (to allow for a Sniper or Gauss Rifle plus secondary weapons in the turret, for example) and CASE, you'd have 28t of pod space, assuming you stick with just 6t of armor.

[gyedid]

Is it possible to switch to a larger fusion engine without going XL? (or even light fusion) 

If you stick with the ICE, then it seems to me there really isn't a lot that can be done by way of changing the main gun AND adding some more armour.  If you're sticking with standard plate, you need at least 2 additional tons to make it worthwhile (1 ton only marginally increases protection in all locations).

cheers,

Gabe

[gyedid]

A suggestion for a 3058-ish upgrade:

--standard fusion engine, speed stays 4/6
--main gun is an LB-10X
--upgrade the SRM launcher to a 6-rack and add Artemis IV.  Alternatively, switch to 2 Streak-2s.
--add CASE
--any leftover weight goes to armour, and upgrade to ferro-fibrous.

However, this is no longer a tank suitable for dirtbag militia.

cheers,

Gabe

[A. Lurker]

Is it possible to switch to a larger fusion engine without going XL? (or even light fusion) 

The stock T-12 has a 220-rated internal combustion engine weighing 20 tons. A standard fusion engine with the same rating would weigh 15 tons on a vehicle due to extra shielding et al., and to move up into the 5/8 bracket you'd need one with a rating of 275, which at 23.5 tons (15.5 base times 1.5 rounded up to the nearest half-ton) would weigh actually more than the original's ICE. You'd need at least a light engine (pulling the total back down to 18 tons) to get back into the 20-or-less range if you're set on fusion, though a 275-rated fuel cell engine at 19 tons could just barely do the same.

Of course, if we're looking at engine swaps, we have to consider the other pros and cons of the individual types. Internal combustion has nothing going for it except being fluffed as common and cheap. Fuel cells leave more free tonnage than standard fusion engines on vehicles and are cheaper (though rather more expensive than ICEs), but can still die to that explosive Fuel Tank critical hit and don't really support energy weapons all that much better than their ICE cousins -- you still need power amplifiers and the one free heat sink provided really doesn't help that much either. And fusion engines, well, do provide the maximum energy weapon support vehicles can get and get rid of the explosive fuel problem as well...but they're the most expensive type and the standard models at least are actually heavier than fuel cell systems. (You can get around that with light and extralight versions, of course, if you really don't have to watch your C-bills.)

For a basic Tiger engine upgrade without going over the top, fuel cells might indeed be a good if historically slightly off-canon way to go. If I wanted to turn it into an Omni as well, though -- and I'm not sure I necessarily do --, I think I'd definitely go fusion, even if it meant trundling along at the same old 4/6. If I'm going to rebuild a tank that much in the name of flexibility, I want it as likely to come home to be re-podded for its next mission as possible, and I'll want the ability to mount energy weapons as needed as well.

[Sabelkatten]

It's a Davion tank...

Ditch rear MG for CASE, upgrade to HFF (it might be expensive and hard to get, but chances are a militia tank gets to use its armor exactly once, ever... ::) ), replace SRM4 with twin MML3s (2 tons ammo), replace AC/10 with RAC/5 (2 tons ammo).

That ought to be noticeable on the field! 8)

[Moonsword]

I prefer an LB 10-X/SRM solution using standard FF for modern militias, but using the fuel cells the FS is already deploying the infrastructure to support with things like the Challenger Mk. XV.  More common weaponry, a more versatile and longer-ranged main gun, and it's still quite effective.  Hell, against vehicles, it's more effective.

          BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
                      VALIDATED

Type/Model:    Tiger T-15
Tech:          Inner Sphere / 3082
Config:        Tracked Vehicle
Rules:         Level 3, Modified design

Mass:          55 tons
Power Plant:   275 Fuel Cell
Cruise Speed:  54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Armor Type:    Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:     
  1 LB 10-X AC
  1 SRM 4
  2 Machine Guns
Manufacturer:  (Unknown)
  Location:    (Unknown)
Communications System:  (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System:  (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Tiger T-15
Mass:          55 tons

Equipment:                                 Items    Mass
Int. Struct.:  30 pts Standard               0      5.50
Engine:        275 Fuel Cell                 0     19.00
    Cruise MP:   5
     Flank MP:   8
Heat Sinks:     10 Single                    0       .00
Cockpit & Controls:                          0      3.00
Crew: 4 Members                              0       .00
Turret Equipment:                            0      1.50
Armor Factor:  143 pts Ferro-Fibrous         2      8.00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Front:                     6         30
   Left / Right Sides:        6      30/30
   Rear:                      6         23
   Turret:                    6         30

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Items    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 LB 10-X AC             Turret   0   20     2     13.00
1 SRM 4                  Turret   0   25     2      3.00
1 Machine Gun            Turret   0  100     2      1.00
1 Machine Gun            Front    0          1       .50
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment     Body                1       .50
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                           0         10     55.00
Items & Tons Left:                           6       .00

Calculated Factors:
Battle Value 2:    838 (old BV = 494)
Cost per BV:       7,119.27
Weapon Value:      367 / 367 (Ratio = .44 / .44)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 14;  MRDmg = 7;  LRDmg = 2
BattleForce2:      MP: 5T,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 6
                   Damage PB/M/L: 2/2/1,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: GM;  Point Value: 8


For an armor fix, the simple solution is to just yank the SRMs.

          BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
                      VALIDATED

Type/Model:    Tiger T-12 (Armor)
Tech:          Inner Sphere / 2470
Config:        Tracked Vehicle
Rules:         Level 1, Modified design

Mass:          55 tons
Power Plant:   220 I.C.E.
Cruise Speed:  43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor Type:    Standard
Armament:     
  1 Autocannon/10
  3 Machine Guns
Manufacturer:  (Unknown)
  Location:    (Unknown)
Communications System:  (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System:  (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Tiger T-12 (Armor)
Mass:          55 tons

Equipment:                                 Items    Mass
Int. Struct.:  30 pts Standard               0      5.50
Engine:        220 I.C.E.                    0     20.00
    Cruise MP:   4
     Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:      0 Single                    0       .00
Cockpit & Controls:                          0      3.00
Crew: 4 Members                              0       .00
Turret Equipment:                            0      1.50
Armor Factor:  144 pts Standard              0      9.00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Front:                     6         30
   Left / Right Sides:        6      30/30
   Rear:                      6         24
   Turret:                    6         30

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Items    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Autocannon/10          Turret   0   20     2     14.00
1 Machine Gun            Turret   0  100     2      1.00
1 Machine Gun            Front    0          1       .50
1 Machine Gun            Rear     0          1       .50
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                           0          6     55.00
Items & Tons Left:                          10       .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        948,083 C-Bills
Battle Value 2:    654 (old BV = 339)
Cost per BV:       1,449.67
Weapon Value:      250 / 250 (Ratio = .38 / .38)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 10;  MRDmg = 5;  LRDmg = 1
BattleForce2:      MP: 4T,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 6
                   Damage PB/M/L: 2/1/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: GM;  Point Value: 7

[gyedid]

I like the fuel cell-equipped LB-10X version that moves 5/8: I could see it heading into battle leading the charge in mixed companies with Ultra-Pattons and Gauss-Rommels following close behind.

cheers,

Gabe

[gyedid]

Is the light AC/5 considered too high-tech a weapon for dirtbag militia?  If not, what about using a pair of these to replace the AC/10?  Saves 2 tons which could go to armour...

cheers,

Gabe

[Khymerion]

Light AC/5s shouldn't be too high tech.   They should be pretty common actually.

[A. Lurker]

Is the light AC/5 considered too high-tech a weapon for dirtbag militia?  If not, what about using a pair of these to replace the AC/10?  Saves 2 tons which could go to armour...

cheers,

Gabe

By the book, LACs are Tech Rating D. That's a step above standard autocannons, but also still below every other "advanced" model including the older LB-X and Ultra ones. So it shouldn't really be all that far out of reach, barring local availability issues.

Of course, the reason I've never gone on a "replace an AC/10 with two LAC/5s, stat!" custom design binge myself is that after a bit of experimentation (involving the Orion back in the day, IIRC) I've decided that often enough I'd rather keep the AC/10's one big hit after all. Plus, originally the T-12's selling point was just that it took the step away from the AC/5-class weapons usually seen on tanks at the time. But...it's definitely an idea.

[truetanker]

I believe they ment the upgrade was more like:

Medium Rifle as first production, then upgraded to the Heavy Rifle version until finally the AutoCannon 10-class variant seen in the book.

I might be wrong, but am I?

TT

[Moonsword]

I believe they ment the upgrade was more like:

Medium Rifle as first production, then upgraded to the Heavy Rifle version until finally the AutoCannon 10-class variant seen in the book.

I might be wrong, but am I?

While it's impossible to prove it for certain until we have the record sheets, I'm pretty sure you are.  The tonnage differences (4 tons for a heavy rifle and 7 tons for a medium) don't fit the description of "minor upgrade" or "Outwardly ... very few changes", heavy rifles are not autocannons and a medium rifle certainly isn't a heavy autocannon, neither fits the sole description of being less reliable, and the rest of the paragraph is clearly talking about brand and manufacturer changes under the same introductory text I noted above.  It's difficult for me to support any notion that the AC/10 is such a massive departure from the rest.

[drakensis]

I'd have to assume that if the Tiger was revived in the 31st century, differing transport expectations would lead to it dropping 5 tons to fit into modern light vehicle bays.

The LB-X switch makes sense to me - more range, more flexibility and it frees up a ton. I do like fuel cell options, but rather than go for more speed I'd fix the armour that is the Tiger's main vulnerability.

Here's the version I'd be looking at:

Code: [Select]

Tiger T-22

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Advanced Rules
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-F-D-A
Production Year: 3080
Cost: 1,666,750 C-Bills
Battle Value: 860

Power Plant:  200 Fuel Cell Engine
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor:  Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  LB 10-X AC
    2  Streak SRM-2s
    3  Machine Guns
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      25 points                5.00
Engine:             Fuel-Cell Engine             200                      10.50
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             1                         0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         2.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    1.50
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 184                 11.50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     38       
                                          Left/Right   38/38       
                                              Turret     38       
                                                Rear     32       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Machine Gun                                  FR        0         1         0.50
(R) Machine Gun                              RR        0         1         0.50
LB 10-X AC                                   T         2         1        11.00
2 Streak SRM-2s                              T         4         2         3.00
Machine Gun                                  T         0         1         0.50
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10)                      BD        -         0         1.00
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10)                         BD        -         0         1.00
@Streak SRM-2 (50)                           BD        -         0         1.00
@MG (1/2) (100)                              BD        -         0         0.50

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 9
4t         2       2       1       0      2     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: EE, TUR(2/2/1), FLK 1/1/1

[Cryhavok101]

I like to think that they really should (how else are you going to get those massive capacitor banks back to full charge within seconds -- with hand-cranked dynamos?)

Well with an ICE engine that happens to have a nice ability to crank things, I don't see why not. Futuristic magic engine-cranked dynamos  ;D

[Wrangler]

Main article has faded to black, maybe it's time to resurrect it.
Never mind. I saw the Classic in the hyperlink, it appears to be still working.  I tried it and didn't want load for me.  :-X