Author Topic: Monbvol's House rule emporium  (Read 94379 times)

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #360 on: 13 December 2017, 12:49:43 »
24,000 annual nets 8,000 monthly in defense budget.  So yes I am inclined to have the boosts carry over as it makes all the math easier.

*nod*

Yeah I'll use CamOps math with the extra options AToW offers for base salaries for now but did bring the mismatch to the attention of TPTB so it can be resolved via errata.

Which does mean I need to go back and look at my Status trait rules a bit to see how well I handle salary modifiers and Officers already. May have to add some stuff.

I also need to re-write some of my Property Quirks so that their effects can match up with the variable increments of when to roll for Property Administration.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #361 on: 13 December 2017, 13:24:12 »
Excellent thanks!  I seem to be having an issue with the forum display, so I may have to reboot... not sure when I'll be back online...

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #362 on: 13 December 2017, 15:16:02 »
Yeah all the time I was going to use on working out some of these things today got used up doing other stuff.  This evening is going to be particularly brutal as thanks to traffic a drive that should take maybe a bit over an hour, possibly an hour fifteen minutes could easily run into the three or four hour mark just because of traffic.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #363 on: 13 December 2017, 15:27:41 »
Good luck with traffic... I'm going down for yet another nap shortly.  I had a kidney stone removed yesterday, and the drugs are throwing me for a loop.  On balance, I'll take the drugs over the stone any day...

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #364 on: 13 December 2017, 19:09:35 »
I woke up and did some math... with Property 1, it would be possible to have a 30 ton all energy weapon mech (say, a Fire Javelin) on call 24/7 (8,000 a month will cover three pilots and the tech team too).

Separately, it looks like  it would take at least Property 6 to afford one of my combined arms companies (one lance of Goblins and two platoons of infantry; I haven't worked out the ammo costs yet, but spares, salaries, and one tech team have already exceeded what Property 5 can get).

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #365 on: 13 December 2017, 21:00:09 »
On my phone.

I may have to nudge the incomes a bit as I think 5 should be enough to cover a full vehicle company.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #366 on: 13 December 2017, 21:29:45 »
I think a 5 could get there with smaller vehicles.  Like real life, it's personnel costs that get you in the end...

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #367 on: 13 December 2017, 21:38:05 »
Some math seems in order.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #368 on: 13 December 2017, 21:59:18 »
The Savannah Master math I did this morning means a 5 can support a full company of those with three tech teams and still have ~100,000 per year left over.  What kills my combined arms company is the two platoons of infantry.  Payroll gets you every time.  People are just plain more expensive than machines (which is both realistic and drives you to 'mech forces, serving the core design of the game).

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #369 on: 14 December 2017, 00:44:35 »
It does present a slight problem though.  Battletech is also a setting where you don't always have a mech, even for your most prestigious front line unit in some eras, even if you have the cash.  It also creates the problem of where do you set the initial force building budget.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #370 on: 14 December 2017, 02:52:10 »
True, true... I've been looking at it purely from support costs, not initial investment.  The trick there is that a MechWarrior's salary is only equal to two infantry troopers, but the one MechWarrior can bring many times the firepower.  Vehicles fall somewhere in between (unless they only have a crew of one, in which case they act as really cheap 'mechs).

The support cost for even a 100 ton 'mech is only 1,000 C-Bills per month, but one way to partially level costs would be to hold the line on tech team requirements.  As we worked out before, a full (regular) tech team costs 3,200 per month (800 for the Tech, 2,400 for six AsTechs).  Requiring one tech team per 'mech, one per lance of light vehicles, one per two heavy vehicles, and just a Tech per company of infantry (the troops can act as their own AsTechs) should level things out a bit.  Even with that though, a single 'mech is going to come out to less than the salary cost of a single squad of infantry (5,250).

This will definitely require more thought...

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #371 on: 14 December 2017, 11:38:53 »
*nod*

I have had to do a lot of battle with the concept of how do you keep things true to the setting versus making sure the player can feel involved, be invested, and have fun.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #372 on: 15 December 2017, 02:37:10 »
Perhaps the solution is to give a discount to salaries (at least for infantry)?  I could see 750 per month being for someone willing to travel the galaxy at the drop of a hat.  If you fluff some of the salary of the defense force as "in kind" housing (and possibly board), that could tilt things back toward infantry as your primary component.  Another way to look at it is that infantry skills are so common (as compared to MechWarrior, or even vehicle crew skills), that it's not worth the same premium.  Just a thought...

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #373 on: 15 December 2017, 05:04:41 »
Yeah I am going to just have to run some numbers to figure out a good medium point.  Something that will make it hard to initially invest in a mech as those are supposed to be rare in garrisons but still provide enough to have a decent force.

One immediate conclusion I have come to is that making the garrison Green instead of Regular really seems to beat down those salary costs.  Can actually almost afford two squads of Infantry if you make them all Green with Property 1.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #374 on: 15 December 2017, 06:40:29 »
That would certainly help, though I don't think I'd go so far as to require them all to be Green.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #375 on: 15 December 2017, 12:19:57 »
Just another tool I can give to players.  They want a larger garrison then they can make some Green so that the salaries are affordable.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #376 on: 15 December 2017, 12:31:37 »
Sounds good... btw, I don't know if you saw my post to the AToW Companion Errata thread earlier today, but it appears the bog standard Auto-Rifle qualifies for the Heavy Burst special.  I prefer to think it's a typo in the criteria on page 171, personally...

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #377 on: 16 December 2017, 16:44:50 »
Finally got around to researching the various extreme conditions that impact Infantry and Vehicles more than mechs.

Since there are so few vehicles with fusion engines and environmental sealing eliminating any of those the conditions that require those actually removes most of the issues for Infantry as well.

I was thinking about making Extreme Cold a positive quirk because of how useful it is to Mechs but then I realized it would still be a net negative thanks to most economic activity on the Property being done by people and vehicles.

Of course all of this is now making me contemplate how to add frameworks for taking an AToW character into Battleforce or even ACS all the way up to potentially ISaW games.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #378 on: 16 December 2017, 18:40:35 »
Sweet!  Top to bottom consistency is one of my ultimate goals too.

And I agree extreme cold is more of a minus than a plus to general economic activity.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #379 on: 16 December 2017, 19:41:13 »
The upside is that Extreme Cold does have a built in incentive as to why you would take it, the aforementioned making mechs run cooler.

Now to figure out an incentive as to why you would want to take Extreme Heat.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #380 on: 16 December 2017, 19:45:04 »
Extra effective solar power?

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #381 on: 16 December 2017, 20:08:15 »
Hmmm, not sure how I could work that in a consistent manner with the complications of special gear needed for your people to work outside and vehicles being less efficient.  Also a world can be hot without letting a lot of sunlight through.

Perhaps the added defensive bonus of enemy mechs that come to raid your property generate more heat, slower enemy vehicles, and enemies also needing specially equipped infantry will have to do.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #382 on: 17 December 2017, 05:06:59 »
Ah, right... I hadn't thought of a Venus situation at first.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #383 on: 17 December 2017, 06:13:00 »
*nod*

It is a bit maddening to be sure.

idea weenie

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4855
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #384 on: 17 December 2017, 10:17:55 »
Hmmm, not sure how I could work that in a consistent manner with the complications of special gear needed for your people to work outside and vehicles being less efficient.  Also a world can be hot without letting a lot of sunlight through.

Perhaps the added defensive bonus of enemy mechs that come to raid your property generate more heat, slower enemy vehicles, and enemies also needing specially equipped infantry will have to do.

Even that is not as big of an issue, as anyone raiding your planet will likely be smart enough to scan the planet before they land and get a temperature reading that way.  Extra heat would just be horrible for both sides to deal with, and worse for your landhold as they have to deal with the heat all the time, vs the attackers having to deal with it only when they strike.

Extreme cold could be useful though, as when you start to get enough industry and people you will put out enough heat to slowly warm the planet up (for large values of 'enough').  About 2 Trillion would be the planetary population limit (https://youtu.be/XAJeYe-abUA?t=10m40s), due to the need for lots of industry.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #385 on: 17 December 2017, 13:26:02 »
I have come to the conclusion I may have to just accept that some negative Property Quirks won't have enough inherent incentive  to them and that be okay as it'll let players buy positive Property Quirks and thet be the incentive.

While Extreme Cold could potentially be overcome with enough time or technology these Property Quirks are intended to be in effect for the entirety of the campaign.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #386 on: 18 December 2017, 01:39:25 »
Still wrangling with re-writing some stuff to make it consistent across any time frame for Property Quirks and Property Administration rolls and it is proving a little tricky.

Also realizing that I am not really doing enough to make a difference between an Enlisted(or equivelant for the other Status types) and an Officer.  I also am facing the problem that mechwarriors/pilots/whathaveyou may not be getting enough points via my Status trait to make my Status trait work the way I want to.

I may have to do something along the lines of the existing Rank and how Officer interacts with it but provide more actual frameworks/incentives.  Perhaps more variety as well.  Like Officer could also cover being senior management at a large firm as well as actually being an Officer in the Military, a Crime Syndicate, or Intelligence Agency and just add raw points to customize the subcategories with since that can be rather varied as well.  While something like Pilot could give at least 1 point to Vehicle and some points you can put to something else.

I just have to figure out the benefits and costs.  Though for costs I am thinking it should be 200 XP.  Having some self debate to drop it to 100 XP.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #387 on: 18 December 2017, 18:56:51 »
In my now typical scatter brained nature I was working on a spreadsheet to help deal with managing budgets for Garrisons just so I could give myself a tool to help me figure out what can be supported and hopefully put out something less record keeping intensive.

I kind of realized the only way I am going to be able to do this is to track each and every individual member of the garrison separately.  Which is a bit of a pain since I am warming to the idea that Property 10 should have about a Regiment protecting it.

Still I will probably share this spreadsheet as it will be rather helpful for the rules in Campaign Operations.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #388 on: 18 December 2017, 22:13:12 »
Sounds good, I can't wait to see it!

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Monbvol's House rule emporium
« Reply #389 on: 18 December 2017, 23:29:29 »
Well I may be able to compress things a bit after all.  Just going to be a bit of a pain assigning the correct ranks to people in the correct ratios and will have to sacrifice individually racking people's ranks and skills but that doesn't seem a huge issue to me.

Still I've attached the preliminary quick and dirty version I have worked up.  I haven't put in hardly any of my usual automation or color coding but I have filled in all the formulas to allow entries down to row 250 for now.

Also with my research complete I have finished up another draft of the Property Quirks.  I know I need a couple more negative ones or perhaps some other way to get positive quirks without having to take negative ones.  Perhaps Just caving in and allowing a separate Property Quirks trait like there is already a Vehicle trait can work.

Thinking of adding Research Center and Higher Learning(to include Military Academies) positive quirks but really not sure how I can work those mechanically just yet.

Anyway what I currently have:

Border World(Within 30 Light Years of an actively hostile power more technologically advanced than your faction(represent some of the other eras like Age of War where the Terran Hegemony were being mean to their neighbors or later Clan Eras))
Cost: -2
Mechanics: Player takes a -2 on their Property Administration roll whenever determining their income but due to the raids and repelled invasions their techs do not take any repair/salvage modifiers for unfamiliar technology and may equip a weapon or piece of equipment available to this enemy power not available to your faction on one garrison unit per point of Property and any such equipped units may exceed the normal average skill rating of Regular and start at Veteran.
Special: To represent less actively hostile periods reduce cost to -1 and lose the ability to mount salvaged gear on garrison units but may still increase the average skill rating as described.  This quirk can be taken up to three times by GM permission depending on era.

Border World, Lesser(Within 30 Light Years of an actively hostile power on the same tech base or lower than yours)
Cost: -1
Mechanics: Player takes a -1 on their Property Administration roll whenever determining their income.  Due to the frequent raids at the start of the game campaign your garrison may have one unit per rank of Property exceed the normal starting average experience cap of Regular to a maximum of Veteran.
Special: The best count I can come up with is 5 times this quirk may be taken.

Remote(more than 30 Light Years from the closest regional administrative center)
Cost: -1
Mechanics Player takes a -1 on their Property Administration roll whenever determining their income.  The lack of interference and oversight from their superiors allows the player to be more free in setting their own local laws.  Player may reduce Black Market costs as if they had one better letter code for legality, including eliminating them altogether, for the entire party.

Resource Shortage(mostly to reflect not having enough clean water to go around but I imagine there are a few other things this could cover)
Cost: -1
Mechanics: -1 to Property Administration roll.  Lacking proper supply of a daily need your Property is more severly impacted by Political Scandal and Natural Disasters.  Increase the penalty for these events by 50% round up(-1 becomes -2 for example).

Administrative Center
Cost: -1
Mechanics: Player takes a +1 on their Property Administration roll whenever determining their income.  As an Administrative center this quirk is incompatible with Remote.  With the attention of their superiors more focused on them players are not as free in their actions but are more likely to receive aid in case of emergency.  Reduce Property Administration modifiers for Natural Disasters, Raids, and Invasions by 50% rounded in favor of the player to a minimum of -1.  Of course if the Player is involved in a Political Scandal the extra attention of their superiors increases the penalty they take 50%, round up, more severe penalties and take the normal penalties for being involved in such a scandal if another player in the group is somehow involved.

Resource Surplus
Cost: +1
Mechanics: +1 on Property Administration rolls.  Excess resources make your rivals more covetous and corruption more likely though.  -1 on Property Event rolls. Incompatible with Resource Shortage.

Lightly Industrialized
Cost: +2
Mechanics: +1 on Property Administration rolls.  As with Resource Surplus this attracts the attention of rivals, enemies, and the corrupt but having some production offers some advantages. -1 on Property Event rolls as well as GM and player should work together to determine some good to be taken in trade.  May also provide sufficient facilities to perform Class D Refits for one unit type but take a -4 on Property Administration rolls while performing the refit.

Heavily Industrialized
Cost: +4
Mechanics: +2 on Property Administration rolls.  -2 Property Event rolls.  Work with GM to determine produced good to take in trade and may do a Class F refit of one unit type but takes certain levels of Property to do so.  Mass of unit/25 round up(-1 to a minimum of 1 for Vehicles, +2 for Small Craft) and take a -4 modifier(player does not get the +2 to counter act part of this modifier) while performing the refit.  To re-tool the factory take a total -8 modifier to Property Administration roll for 8+Proprty rank months then player makes a special Administration plus current Edge score against a TN of 8+Property rank each month.  Each success reduces re-tooling penalty by 1.  Each failure extends the modifier another month.  Yes I want retooling to be harsh and something not done lightly.

Extreme Cold or Extreme Heat
Cost: -1 for each 10 degress(Celsius) below -30 or above 50
Mechanics: The special gear and reduced efficiency of vehicles reduces the economic output of your Property.  Take a -1 to Property Administration rolls.  When defending your Property consult Total Warfare and Tactical Operations for rules on extreme tempratures.

High/Low Gravity
Cost: -1 for each 0.2g or fraction thereof above or below 1g(recommended maximum limits of 0.2g and 1.5g)
Mechanics: Take a -1 to Property Administration Rolls due to the unusual gravity of the world your Property is on.  Consult Tactical Operations and A Time of War for rules on abnormal gravity.

 

Register