Author Topic: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion  (Read 114015 times)

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Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« on: 14 December 2017, 23:31:02 »
OK, separate thread so nobody can complain...  ::)

First off, it was one of the better movies, but it did open up a lot of unintended consequences in having that story.

- Why have the star destroyers gone super slow? In the previous movies they could match speed with the Millennium Falcon, now they can barely keep up with the rebel ships.

- The lightspeed kamikaze maneuver: this is the real game breaker here. If a single cruiser can devastate a whole fleet, why not just build lots of LS engines on asteroids and throw them at opposing fleets? Why did the rebs even try to do a bomb run at the dreadnought when they could have just hit them with lightspeed strikes?

- So Leia has got force powers now? Even without training?

- How is Rey going to continue her training now that Luke is dead? Will he train her as a force ghost?

Well it seems everybody is dying, with Carrie Fisher gone it's a given Leia dies in the next movie too. So who is left? Lando and Chewie?

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #1 on: 14 December 2017, 23:36:10 »
Eh, not even bothering to see this one.  I have seen every Star Wars movie, ever and I won't bother seeing this one.  The Force Awakens was not great, this one sounds even more not to my taste.  I'm looking forward to the Han Solo movie, but I think for the most part I'll ignore what Disney does and just reread my EU stuff.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #2 on: 14 December 2017, 23:50:05 »
Eh, not even bothering to see this one.  I have seen every Star Wars movie, ever and I won't bother seeing this one.  The Force Awakens was not great, this one sounds even more not to my taste.  I'm looking forward to the Han Solo movie, but I think for the most part I'll ignore what Disney does and just reread my EU stuff.
I hated Force Awakens too, but I think this one is way better simply because there are enough surprises in it to be worthwhile.  8)

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #3 on: 14 December 2017, 23:56:59 »
I loved it.  Some of it dragged on a bit long.  But overall pretty good.  Trying tomfigure out the trolls saying it was a rip off of ESB though. 

And I agree with Mark Hamill.  I didnt like what they did with Luke's character.  Good end for him, but most of what came before didnt seem right.

I am hoping what Ren said about Rey's family turns out to be a lie though.  Doesnt feel right.

Now, as someone whomcollects lightsabers, I really hope someone makes versions of the red guards weapons soon
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #4 on: 15 December 2017, 01:19:54 »
I am hoping what Ren said about Rey's family turns out to be a lie though.  Doesnt feel right.
It's been suggested that Ren was gaslighting her - considering the time he says it, it's easily a point to make that he's just browbeating her further down to break her spirit.

That said, are Jedi all trolls?  Between Yoda and the tree and not telling Luke about the books, and then Luke himself just brushing dust off his outfit after Ren flips his shit and orders the gunfire, plus "From a certain point of view" it just makes you wonder.

I mean, if you're part of the Force, you gotta find SOMETHING to keep yourself occupied.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #5 on: 15 December 2017, 02:48:26 »
I like how he trolled Rey during her first lesson.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #6 on: 15 December 2017, 06:49:03 »
I loved it.  Some of it dragged on a bit long.  But overall pretty good.  Trying tomfigure out the trolls saying it was a rip off of ESB though. 

And I agree with Mark Hamill.  I didnt like what they did with Luke's character.  Good end for him, but most of what came before didnt seem right.

I am hoping what Ren said about Rey's family turns out to be a lie though.  Doesnt feel right.

Now, as someone whomcollects lightsabers, I really hope someone makes versions of the red guards weapons soon

I thought it was very much like ESB.

- young Jedi going to remote planet to train with master
- main characters get separated
- one side being pursued by the bad guys
- final battle takes place on salt planet looking kinda like Hoth.
- AT-ATs and vehicles similar to snow speeders

I did sort of like Luke's arc. Despite his formidable powers he's at heart just a simple farm boy who was forced to do heroic things, and he never had the full training to be a Jedi master.

Rey is still a Mary Sue. I dont know what to think of Kylo, but he does remind me of Kreia in The Sith Lords game.

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #7 on: 15 December 2017, 07:32:12 »
TFA and TLJ both share key elements with ANH and ESB, respectively. They are not forging new ground here. It's in the smaller details that the movies are different. I fully expect SW IX to have a lot of similarities to RotJ.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #8 on: 15 December 2017, 07:57:48 »
It's evident to me that someone at the top of the production staff is a fan of the anime genre(and/or classic samurai films), from the way they portrayed the moment of the hyperspace jump, the Luke/Kylo 'duel', and the presence of a pink-haired Bringer of the Apocalypse. >:D

- Why have the star destroyers gone super slow? In the previous movies they could match speed with the Millennium Falcon, now they can barely keep up with the rebel ships.

While the actual answer is probably that they were limited to speeds the plot demanded of them, in-universe we can say that the Resurgent-class really is much slower than an Imperial or Imp II, emphasizing the role of mobile space supremacy base over that of ship-to-ship combatant.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #9 on: 15 December 2017, 08:45:39 »
Did Rey make off with the books? I could have sworn that was them in the drawer when Finn was getting out a blanket for Rose.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #10 on: 15 December 2017, 09:08:59 »
Saw it last night and yep, Rey had the books. 

I enjoyed it, yeah the ramship thing was silly and WHY didn't the New Order just launch fighters  with every encounter they had.  I'd have had every fighter I had in the void when I jumped in.  But it was enjoyable, I must admit I went "You ******..." very quietly when the attack on the Bridge hit home.

Whilst the force pull thing was rather well done, we don't know how much training Leia had or not from Luke. Was a rather beautiful scene.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #11 on: 15 December 2017, 10:06:17 »
Did Rey make off with the books? I could have sworn that was them in the drawer when Finn was getting out a blanket for Rose.
Youre right, she did. So I guess that makes Yoda burning the tree down a bit of a sneaky move to appease Luke's feelings.

Then again, why doesn't Rey just go to the Jedi Temple in Coruscant? She can get an online holographic tutorial over there instead of reading a bunch of old musty books. she can even grab a whole bunch of lightsabers too...

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #12 on: 15 December 2017, 10:20:02 »
What makes you think there is one there in this era?
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #13 on: 15 December 2017, 10:40:03 »
Youre right, she did. So I guess that makes Yoda burning the tree down a bit of a sneaky move to appease Luke's feelings.

Then again, why doesn't Rey just go to the Jedi Temple in Coruscant? She can get an online holographic tutorial over there instead of reading a bunch of old musty books. she can even grab a whole bunch of lightsabers too...

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #14 on: 15 December 2017, 10:45:39 »
I enjoyed it, yeah the ramship thing was silly and WHY didn't the New Order just launch fighters  with every encounter they had.  I'd have had every fighter I had in the void when I jumped in. 

And why when firing at the transports did they only use one gun?

I'm going to pick up Incredible Cross Sections ans The Visual Dictionary today. Those usually apply a large dose of Spackle to glaring plot holes.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #15 on: 15 December 2017, 10:59:33 »
And why when firing at the transports did they only use one gun?


 Cloaked shuttles at a very long range, only the lead super supreme pizza slice had the targetign fix/range to do it.

And being First Order, killing helpless shuttles one at a time to highten the terror would be just a  bonus.

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #16 on: 15 December 2017, 11:06:46 »


- The lightspeed kamikaze maneuver: this is the real game breaker here. If a single cruiser can devastate a whole fleet, why not just build lots of LS engines on asteroids and throw them at opposing fleets? Why did the rebs even try to do a bomb run at the dreadnought when they could have just hit them with lightspeed strikes?


requirements: the ability to sacrfice a large light speed ship. (Cruiser..could be lighter ships at light speed just wouldnt break a shield or do enough damage). Resistance doesn't have that many spare light speed drives around.

And,  the First Order ignored killing an easy target durign the entire turning about and jumping to speed sequence. Thats going to work once. The ramming ship had to be absolutely close enough that the FO ships couldnt jump, and the lead target was just to big to get out of the exit path.

I figure the  fleet devastation was just lucky. The formation the First Order was in they were in looked more like a fleet parade, where ships close in for apperance, or ease of coordination for a pursuit than a wall of battle to maximize firing. Might have been getting close to maximize anti fighter and bomber firepower. Probably an error not to be repeated.

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #17 on: 15 December 2017, 12:01:26 »
Cloaked shuttles at a very long range, only the lead super supreme pizza slice had the targetign fix/range to do it.

That's my guess as well. Supremacy was probably the only one carrying guns with that kind of range, and somebody's (Snoke, Hux, other) arrogance(or caution) orders kept the RSDs in close formation.

requirements: the ability to sacrfice a large light speed ship. (Cruiser..could be lighter ships at light speed just wouldnt break a shield or do enough damage). Resistance doesn't have that many spare light speed drives around.

That's my thinking as well. Considering the velocities involved, Our Blessed Lady of F=MA actually did remarkably little damage to the Supremacy and escorts. Realistically, the entire fleet should have been reduced to a rapidly expanding cloud of Oh My God particles. We can reasonably infer that anything smaller wouldn't have had an appreciable effect.

Therefore, a force that wants to do this must be desperate enough to resort to kamikaze attacks while also possessing very large starships that they can afford to lose.

The Resistance was in such a dire situation that any result other than 100% losses constituted at least a partial victory. This was probably the only point where that ship could have been considered expendable, at no other time would they have considered this.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #18 on: 15 December 2017, 13:12:21 »
requirements: the ability to sacrfice a large light speed ship. (Cruiser..could be lighter ships at light speed just wouldnt break a shield or do enough damage). Resistance doesn't have that many spare light speed drives around.

And,  the First Order ignored killing an easy target durign the entire turning about and jumping to speed sequence. Thats going to work once. The ramming ship had to be absolutely close enough that the FO ships couldnt jump, and the lead target was just to big to get out of the exit path.

I figure the  fleet devastation was just lucky. The formation the First Order was in they were in looked more like a fleet parade, where ships close in for apperance, or ease of coordination for a pursuit than a wall of battle to maximize firing. Might have been getting close to maximize anti fighter and bomber firepower. Probably an error not to be repeated.

Like I said, you dont need a cruiser, just mount some LS engines on an asteroid of comparable mass and youve got a fleet killer if we go by this narrative. Or just go smaller, if one cruiser sliced through an entire fleet, a half dozen destroyer sized asteroids with LS engines can target each ship individually and they wont have a chance to evade.

The medical frigate could have taken out one of their star destroyers by doing it instead of just drifting there and getting blasted.

Heck even using the bombers they deployed doing that would have wiped out the First Order fleet. One bomber (which somehow dropped bombs in zero gravity lol) took out a dreadnought.

Why not just arm the bombs and go lightspeed into the opposing ships? No need to even drop them. Even fighters at that speed could cripple one of the smaller ships.

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #19 on: 15 December 2017, 14:15:16 »
Like I said, you dont need a cruiser, just mount some LS engines on an asteroid of comparable mass and youve got a fleet killer if we go by this narrative.


Well, this effect specfifically took somethign cruiser sized, therefore cruiser sized engines. Not just laying about.

Quote
Or just go smaller, if one cruiser sliced through an entire fleet, a half dozen destroyer sized asteroids with LS engines can target each ship individually and they wont have a chance to evade.

If the enemy cheerfuuly gets in close formation, and doesn't shoot at you as you line up your approach.

Quote
The medical frigate could have taken out one of their star destroyers by doing it instead of just drifting there and getting blasted.

Except at the time, the First order wasnt focused on other targets, and if it had turned around under power, it woudl have recieved the full fleet attention.

Quote
Why not just arm the bombs and go lightspeed into the opposing ships? No need to even drop them. Even fighters at that speed could cripple one of the smaller ships.

because starship combat becomes boring. Therefore..the technology doesnt work that way, or only happened thsi time due to freak, bad planning decision making by the First Order. Easy enough to say the affect on the other smaller ships was blind luck, and that was a one in 10000 chance of harming anything other than the main ship...which wasnt completely destroyed, onyl severely damaged. and the cruiser was much closer to the large ship in mass than any fighter would be to a smaller ship.

it was a surprise move..and only effective because of that. The resistance is never to recruit scores of kamikazis. amd can't afford to spend money on much larger engines to mount on asteroids  for a tactic that has reduced effectiveness against an enemy that will now be on guard for such a thing.

the answer will be one of the above, the powers that be of that universe will amek it that way, because robot death rock fighting is boring.

As for realism. there are booms in space. may as well complain the movie sint completely silent in combat scenes. For the bombs, maybe the top of the rack pushed. Just a blast of compressed air gets them going.  I dont know why those werent giant missile carrying ships, but they'll make up a reason that works. Maybe dumb bombs are harder to spoof/trick than misssles.


« Last Edit: 15 December 2017, 14:24:36 by William J. Pennington »

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #20 on: 15 December 2017, 14:19:59 »
wow, some of you guys are really working hard to hate this movie, aren't you?
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #21 on: 15 December 2017, 14:41:22 »
Like I said, you dont need a cruiser, just mount some LS engines on an asteroid of comparable mass...

This assumes that building a large ship is more expensive than taking an asteroid, affixing the engines needed to maneuver it the same at as a ship, navigational sensors, crew quarters life support and minimal shielding so your rock can actually travel from where you found it to the desired battle zone(could be clear across the galaxy), all the support crew and systems to keep your engine and navigational crews alive on those journeys...a lot of work and expense for a one-shot weapon. Building a traditional warship that can normally be expected to fight in many battles may very well be a far more effective use of resources.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #22 on: 15 December 2017, 16:53:18 »
My next comments apply less to a resource and equipment-starved Resistance and more to the general universe.

Given how single-fighter hyperdrives are available enough to outfit a starfighter corps, I'm wondering why hyperspace drone torpedoes aren't a thing. You'll get more flexibility and use out of a fighter for most other roles, but sometimes you just need to make a warship reconsider the positives of a quiet bulk freighter lifespan.

While carpet bombing appears to be effective against capital warships, the attrition rate of the bombers makes me wonder if there were not any faster/more maneuverable platforms out there.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #23 on: 15 December 2017, 17:49:56 »
Maybe there's something preventing computers or droids from handling hyperspace travel.  We've never seen any ship, not even the highly droid-dependany Trade Federation, have anyone but living pilots make the jump
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #24 on: 15 December 2017, 18:32:26 »
It was so much better then Force Awakens. It was very good some things were a little forced.  Some parts were just beyond awesome.
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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #25 on: 15 December 2017, 20:35:14 »
I enjoyed it...and I actually liked what they did with Luke...made him more human...

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #26 on: 15 December 2017, 21:23:32 »
I liked TFA better, but this was still a good movie.  I could've paced it a bit better, I think, and I didn't like Leia as Mary Poppins, but there weren't any scenes I hated, and several I loved.  Yoda was awesome.

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to figure out why the vice admiral didn't tell Poe her plan when he staged a scene, or again when he seized command.

Also, huge missed opportunity to not have Lando as the master codebreaker.

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #27 on: 15 December 2017, 21:54:47 »
just saw it.

- Why have the star destroyers gone super slow? In the previous movies they could match speed with the Millennium Falcon, now they can barely keep up with the rebel ships.
i'm not sure they are slower. note the transports were not much faster than either the Raddus or the FO fleet. and the transports appeared to be at least as fast as the fighters. i think it is more a case that on a chase through deep space (with no reference points) there is no way to determine how fast the ships were actually going. after all, we never saw Chewie and the falcon trying to pace the FO fleet, so the easiest comparison with the OT imperial SD's isn't possible.

plus, it is likely that the Raddus and the rest were redlining their engines.. which would explain why they were running out of fuel so fast.

(and it is possible the falcon just isn't all that fast in sublight.. it might be the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy, but that is its hyperspace speed, specifically)
Quote
- The lightspeed kamikaze maneuver: this is the real game breaker here. If a single cruiser can devastate a whole fleet, why not just build lots of LS engines on asteroids and throw them at opposing fleets? Why did the rebs even try to do a bomb run at the dreadnought when they could have just hit them with lightspeed strikes?
note that she had to do a bunch of extra stuff before she did it.. suggesting she was disabling safeties and such. plus that attack almost certainly destroyed the ship.. trading a 3km heavy cruiser for the damage of a megastardestroyer and a few 2km SD's might be effective, the Republic remnants don't have all that many such ships left.. if any. while the FO have lots more star destroyers.

and btw, this is not the first time we've seen hyperspace attacks.. Hera Syndulla used it (with a U-wing) over Lothal in the Season 4 episode "Kindrid".. she took the U-wing to hyperspace while flying through a hangerbay-tunnel in a spacestation, destroying much of the station in the process. she survived because she had a clear flightpath.. it just was while threading the needle.

given K-2SO in Rogue One was concerned about surviving going into hyperspace with chunks of Jedha's crust all around them, i suspect that any ship that actually hits something while going into hyperspace is going to die. (and Han Solo did say "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it.")

it is also worth noting.. one Bomber managed to destroy a 7.6km Star Dreadnought. the eight or so bombers the Resistance started with could probably have wrecked most of that FO fleet if they could get a clear bombing run in. the Ramming was a desperation move..
they didn't have any more bombers or fighters to work with, just a 3km heavy cruiser and a bunch of personnel transports.


Quote
- So Leia has got force powers now? Even without training?
who says she didn't have training? plenty of time between ROTJ and TFA/TLJ for luke to have taught her.

Quote
- How is Rey going to continue her training now that Luke is dead? Will he train her as a force ghost?
the same way that the very first jedi did.. trial and error, and figuring it out on their own. what the events of this film do basically is reset the clock.. the Jedi Order is dead, the Sith are Dead. all that remains is the force, two half trained but very powerful force users, and a lot of untrained force sensitives. Rey and Kylo Ren basically get to reinvent what it means to be a force user, create new traditions, new organizations. free from the Dogma's and blinkered viewpoints of the past.


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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #28 on: 15 December 2017, 22:13:01 »
This assumes that building a large ship is more expensive than taking an asteroid, affixing the engines needed to maneuver it the same at as a ship, navigational sensors, crew quarters life support and minimal shielding so your rock can actually travel from where you found it to the desired battle zone(could be clear across the galaxy), all the support crew and systems to keep your engine and navigational crews alive on those journeys...a lot of work and expense for a one-shot weapon. Building a traditional warship that can normally be expected to fight in many battles may very well be a far more effective use of resources.

You dont need to put a crew on an asteroid, droids will do. Just put in engines and that's it. Or you wont even need an asteroid, since a bomber can take out a whole dreadnought. All you need to do is put a droid on a bomber and have them do a lightspeed kamikaze run on all capital ships from above since space is 3 dimensional.

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Re: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion
« Reply #29 on: 15 December 2017, 22:25:22 »
Saw TLJ last night.  It's a Star Wars movie and I'm a fanboi so I loved it.

Now almost 24 hours later, I still am fond on it but I've come to see it's given me a new perspective on TFA.  TLJ still has LOTS of parallels to Empire, but it's not the memberberry service to the degree TFA was.  And now it makes sense why TFA was full-on memberberries... it was setting up TLJ to do some necessary but painful demolishing of the franchise so that remodeling can be done in a new direction.

Not everyone's gonna like that, but for all the memberberries in episodes VII and VIII, the final act of the third trilogy is gonna be something distinct from the original.

Cross posted to this thread.

This movie makes TFA better, which is intriguing to me. 

As for the implications on military tactics with the Star Wars Universe... it's even less well explored than the BTU is when it comes to intersections of technology and doctrine.  (I'd ask why space bombers basically work like B-17s all the way down to the ball turrets and gravity bombs... but the answer is the exact same reason why fighters maneuver like WWII fighters: Rule of Cool)

With specific regard to the weaponized lightspeed attack... what we know is in this canon, this is what the first time it's ever happened? I've never seen the canonical Star Wars Rebels or Clone Wars TV shows so I can't speak to those.  But with regards to the movies, we haven't seen weaponized light speed attacks so whatever reason, it is rarely done.   I'd argue because it rarely works out.  The instance in TLJ was clearly a move done purely from desperation.  It may even have been a move only done to force the giant ship to quit shooting at the escaping transports just to protect itself from the "one in a million" chance the suicide charge might actually harm them.    What's basically the same thing is possible in the BTU- you can weaponize a HPG jump just but it hardly ever happens in lore.  (it's happened what, once?)

EDIT:  Ancestral Home.  That's the name I was thinking of... the Cruiser "lightspeed attack" was basically a Star Wars equivalent of the Ancestral Home Maneuver.
« Last Edit: 16 December 2017, 01:56:27 by Tai Dai Cultist »

 

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