Buying property

[solmanian]

I can't seem to find the rules for buying real estate with cash. I know they exist, and 99% sure they're in ATOW/ATOW:C, but just can't locate them.

IIRC it's something like 3d6x(annual income), is that about right?
Also if I don't buy "new" property, but rather "upgrade/expand" my current property, do I get a discount? Like upgrading 1TP small farm, to a 2TP medium farm; do I get 50% off?

[Archangel]

The only rules, that I am aware of, that cover buying real estate with cash are those in MSU which apply to mercenary units who are looking to building their home base. The only rules in TOW/ATOW:C regarding real estate pertain to the Property trait which requires xp to acquire/increase not cash.

[Col Toda]

BT is somewhat feudal and land depending on affiliation may be purchased by a corporate collective or acquired by a Nobel or a family of Nobels . Most restrict land ownership by citizens only . Buying land is easier in an area that has a free market economy as far as government hinderences go but then you have to contend with entrenched local interests . In a socialist economy you have the opposite problem , you have to overcome the Government hinderences and obligations to sell only to them .

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  In ATOW on page 336. there's  section and table on monthly expenses. The rent for a medium house is 500 CB a month so figure the same would go to a mortgage x 12 x 15 years or x 30 years. So a 3 bed/2 bath would be 90K-180K CB cash upfront, about 1.5 that over time at 3.5% interest.
  In my campaign I find an equivalent town or city and look at the property listings for ideas. 1 CB = 3 to 5 dollars.

[solmanian]

Found it! in the IO "force operation" Beta, silly me. Still doesn't make sense so much: buying a land is four times the monthly price for leasing it? That seems off by a factor of ten at least.

[Archangel]

Found it! in the IO "force operation" Beta, silly me. Still doesn't make sense so much: buying a land is four times the monthly price for leasing it? That seems off by a factor of ten at least.

There is a reason why its call a "Beta".  Many of the rules are still being tested and are subject to change.  Not to mention that some of the rules listed in the Betas will no longer be included in the final version of IO due to size constraints.

[Vehrec]

Here's a rule of thumb for you-the value of a plot of land should be at least 20 times it's annual income.  This held true for most of the 18th and early 19th century, and there's some evidence that it was true in earlier time periods as well, though it's harder to tell because records are sparse.  Part of the evidence for this is the fact that net-worth and income are used interchangeably in some novels of the period to refer to a person's worth.

Now, in the period of 3029-3085, one can expect radical fluctuations from this norm, but it's a base rate at least.

[Archangel]

Per MSU (p133), those cost of acquiring land (not including buildings) is determined through two dice rolls.  The first determines whether the unit finds the desired land after a week of searching.  The second (after subtracting the previous roll's Margin of Success or adding the Margin of failure) multiplied by 10,000 for every square half-kilometer of land desired (which roughly equates to the area of a standard CBT mapsheet) represents the monthly cost to lease the land.  That cost is quadrupled if one wants to buy the land.  Please note that cost does not included the construction costs of any buildings/fortifications/etc.

[Vehrec]

That certainly seems odd-I've never heard of any property that had a purchase price only four times the cost to lease it.  For one thing, that would let you recoup your entire investment in just four months. :D

[Archangel]

Well as stated you are only buying land without anything special upon it.  No buildings, no income-generating facilities, not prime real estate, no germanium mines, etc.  The GM is responsible for increasing the price for any and all of those features if they existed on the land.  If none do, then the land simply sits fallow until the player decides to do something with it.

[soshi]

you know location is a factor as well.  worlds on the periphery or on the clan boarder might pay mercs to build a base  while certain other locations the mercs might not ever be allowed to build a base some military types might not want a merc unit to set up a base on strategic world or the capital 

[solmanian]

you know location is a factor as well.  worlds on the periphery or on the clan boarder might pay mercs to build a base  while certain other locations the mercs might not ever be allowed to build a base some military types might not want a merc unit to set up a base on strategic world or the capital

Well, considering that the most common occurrence would be for mercs leasing land on the planet said government is hiring them to garrison, not only will that government allow them to build that base, it'll probably foot the bill. 

[pheonixstorm]

Why build a base on the capital, just buy a dozen apartment blocks and rake in the c-bills ;)

[Vehrec]

Well as stated you are only buying land without anything special upon it.  No buildings, no income-generating facilities, not prime real estate, no germanium mines, etc.  The GM is responsible for increasing the price for any and all of those features if they existed on the land.  If none do, then the land simply sits fallow until the player decides to do something with it.

That would increase the cost of the land but it would also...you know, increase how much it pays to rent.  Probably in proportion to the amount of cost it takes to buy the property.

If it cost 30k C-bills to buy a large vacant lot, I wouldn't expect that empty lot to rent for 7.5k per month.  And while that is a beta rule, it should be obvious to anyone that it makes real-estate speculation so blatantly superior to mercenary work, that any GM in their right mind would rip that rule up and throw it out the window as far as pricing suggestions go-winging it would almost certainly result in something more sensible. 

[solmanian]

Real estate speculation is superior to mercenary work. That's why Monopoly is so popular.

[Col Toda]

Maybe Deep Periphery planets land is as cheap as people think but most established worlds have land that has been conditioned to be able to grow food that humans can eat. Nearly all alien world's eco systems been altered at the expense to the native life . So I kept the idea that land is almost never sold period

[solmanian]

Well, with thousands of habitable planet to go around, I find it hard to believe the real estate market would be even worse than it is when we have just the one planet. Already people are buying planets for a few hundred dollars. personally, I'm betting those people descendants would have a nasty surprise if any of those planets turns out to be worthwhile. Some government agency would simply tell them to take their deed and shove it; and good luck evicting colonists hundreds of LYs away. You can't just shove them out an airlock.

[soshi]

No credible agency is selling them (the claim will not hold up in court) if it comes to it.

[solmanian]

No credible agency is selling them (the claim will not hold up in court) if it comes to it.

Well of course it can't hold up in court. If I live on Mars, why would I let a court on Earth to determine to whom the land under my feet belongs to?

[Archangel]

Well, with thousands of habitable planet to go around, I find it hard to believe the real estate market would be even worse than it is when we have just the one planet. Already people are buying planets for a few hundred dollars. personally, I'm betting those people descendants would have a nasty surprise if any of those planets turns out to be worthwhile. Some government agency would simply tell them to take their deed and shove it; and good luck evicting colonists hundreds of LYs away. You can't just shove them out an airlock.

I'm betting that those people's descendants are going to find their ancestors' purchases are utterly worthless but few are likely to believe that the "ownership papers" are worth anything.  Ownership of extraterrestrial property has not been recognized by any authority.

In the BT universe, the real estate market can be worse or better depending upon which state/Clan the world is part of (if it is even claimed by a state), the property laws in that state, the planetary characteristics of the world, etc.  The average cost of property on one of the FedSuns' Golden Worlds is likely several times the cost of that on a planet in the Outback.  In the 3040s, Romano Liao nationalized all private property which the Sheng were extremely unhappy with (not that many were foolish do/say anything that would invite a visit from the Maskirovka or DC and those that did likely didn't live long enough to regret it).  It wasn't until the 3060s that Sun-Tzu Liao began returning some of the property back to the Sheng.

[solmanian]

Well, of course some land worth more than others. But I'm saying that you can still buy almost any land if you've got the money.

Is buying planets considered a solid investment? There's little danger of it getting lost somehow, unless it's a border world that might be invaded; in which case the government would probably offer incentives for anyone willing to invest in it. Also makes you wonder what are the IS property rights for planets who gets annexed by another power. I guess you can just nationalize all the land, and sell it to your friends; but that's just asking for insurrections. The Combine and Confederacy might be down with that; the people of the other houses might frown on kicking somebody out of his home, even if he's a drac (well, maybe not a drac; but those periphery peasants are still people!).

[Nav_Alpha]

Well, of course some land worth more than others. But I'm saying that you can still buy almost any land if you've got the money.

Is buying planets considered a solid investment? There's little danger of it getting lost somehow, unless it's a border world that might be invaded; in which case the government would probably offer incentives for anyone willing to invest in it. Also makes you wonder what are the IS property rights for planets who gets annexed by another power. I guess you can just nationalize all the land, and sell it to your friends; but that's just asking for insurrections. The Combine and Confederacy might be down with that; the people of the other houses might frown on kicking somebody out of his home, even if he's a drac (well, maybe not a drac; but those periphery peasants are still people!).

A smart invader would keep existing landholders in place - just require them to pledge allegiance, leave some extra minders in his or her household and move on.
If you keep a planetary leadership you ensure a continuity that the average people can feel safe in.

Of course, you make it clear to your newly nationalised ruler that if there's any rebellions or revolts it's a local matter and if it's not cleared up pronto we'll find a new ruler who can.
After we've beheaded you and your entire family on the front lawn of the ducal palace...

[solmanian]

Dealing with nobles is another matter. Depending on the whims of the invader their faith ranges from buying equivalent titles in their new nation, to getting beheaded; mostly they'll be politely sent across the border ("We have plenty of nobles, thank you very much!") after they may or may not paid some kind of ransom. But that's a different discussion.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Well, with thousands of habitable planet to go around, I find it hard to believe the real estate market would be even worse than it is when we have just the one planet. Already people are buying planets for a few hundred dollars. personally, I'm betting those people descendants would have a nasty surprise if any of those planets turns out to be worthwhile. Some government agency would simply tell them to take their deed and shove it; and good luck evicting colonists hundreds of LYs away. You can't just shove them out an airlock.

  That kind of happened when the Terran Hegemony tried to exercise authority over other systems -Those systems formed the Houses and told the government on Terra to take a hike.

[Archangel]

Well, of course some land worth more than others. But I'm saying that you can still buy almost any land if you've got the money.

Is buying planets considered a solid investment? There's little danger of it getting lost somehow, unless it's a border world that might be invaded; in which case the government would probably offer incentives for anyone willing to invest in it.

One can only buy the right to develop uninhabited planets and the ability to do that varies from state to state.

Also makes you wonder what are the IS property rights for planets who gets annexed by another power. I guess you can just nationalize all the land, and sell it to your friends; but that's just asking for insurrections. The Combine and Confederacy might be down with that; the people of the other houses might frown on kicking somebody out of his home, even if he's a drac (well, maybe not a drac; but those periphery peasants are still people!).

Again varies from state to state.  In general they are careful how much private property they confiscate to limit unrest and largely limit their acquisitions to the rival noble families, rival state corporations (aka factories) and those who actively resist the new state government.  Depending upon the time period, inhabitants of planets captured by the Capellans are not considered citizens and thus may not have the right to own property.   And as previously mentioned, Romano Liao did nationalize all private property.

[Col Toda]

That is one reason why I never took a contract from the Cappellens , Marion Hegemony , or Hanseatic League . If you help any of those governments take a planet the property becomes nationalized and in the case of the League the population become serfs , slaves for all intents and purposes . Any outfit working  for the League dance on the line around war crimes . Being a citizen of the League means you have to have property and wealth lose that property lose Citizenship and become a serf .

[solmanian]

C'mon, we can argue the morality of your employers, but bottom line you're just doing a job. If you took a planet for the combine, you just changed the flags; if they decide to massacre the civilians by the thousands, that's on them. Whether your morals let you stand by while your employer commit war crimes, that's your business. Some nations (like the Davions...) would actually commend you, if you stop their forces from disgracing their nation by committing war crimes; though those nations usually avoid committing war crimes to begin with (as much as possible anyways; the shameful truth is that when an operation consists of thousands of soldiers, there are always some bad apples. Most won't burn down hospitals, but looting is still a problem).

[LosTech Prospector]

Normally, in my campaigns gaining property/titles is not the problem (in some states, you can even buy hereditary titles) compared to keeping them. When you enter the world of landowners, industrial magnates, dynastic families and local warlords, expect to have to deal with ancient vendettas, narcistic personalities, corruption, shaky alliances, envy and mistrust.

[Archangel]

C'mon, we can argue the morality of your employers, but bottom line you're just doing a job. If you took a planet for the combine, you just changed the flags; if they decide to massacre the civilians by the thousands, that's on them. Whether your morals let you stand by while your employer commit war crimes, that's your business. Some nations (like the Davions...) would actually commend you, if you stop their forces from disgracing their nation by committing war crimes; though those nations usually avoid committing war crimes to begin with (as much as possible anyways; the shameful truth is that when an operation consists of thousands of soldiers, there are always some bad apples. Most won't burn down hospitals, but looting is still a problem).

And what if your contract requires your unit to either directly ("obey all orders") or indirectly (crowd control against rioters, free up House force so they can commit war crimes, etc) to participate in war crimes?  Not to mention if failing to obey orders leads to the unit's destruction like the Martian Cuirassiers.  There are probably more than a few such cases in the Draconis Combine's history.  What about the Blakist mercenaries that arrested "insurgents" (aka citizens the Blakists were or could become a problem) and handed them over to the Blakists to be murdered?  They might not actually have killed anybody themselves but most would consider them just as guilty.

[solmanian]

And what if your contract requires your unit to either directly ("obey all orders") or indirectly (crowd control against rioters, free up House force so they can commit war crimes, etc) to participate in war crimes?  Not to mention if failing to obey orders leads to the unit's destruction like the Martian Cuirassiers.  There are probably more than a few such cases in the Draconis Combine's history.  What about the Blakist mercenaries that arrested "insurgents" (aka citizens the Blakists were or could become a problem) and handed them over to the Blakists to be murdered?  They might not actually have killed anybody themselves but most would consider them just as guilty.

If you sign a contract to commit war crimes, that's on you. However, it's probably a standard in merc contracts, that the mercs will follow the Ares conventions. If your employer demands that you break them, it's a contract breach; committing war crimes hurts your reputation, but the Z-league mercs trying to scrape a couple of C-Bills to rub together, are often blinded by the money (but at the very least ask for a significant bonus).

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

If you sign a contract to commit war crimes, that's on you. However, it's probably a standard in merc contracts, that the mercs will follow the Ares conventions.

  Only Outreach requires adherence to the Ares conventions in their contracts. There are hundreds of hiring halls that do not recognize those obsolete rules, and none of the Houses. Contracts backing insurgents in a rebellion pay double -It is a high-risk proposition because rebellions are inherently illegal and mercenaries risk summary execution if captured.
  The above being said, there are set definitions of criminal behavior on and off the battlefield, including acts of piracy, although the very use of a contract often acts as a license for acts of piracy.
  War crimes is subjective. There are no such formal laws or treaties in place in the Battletech Universe.

[Archangel]

If you sign a contract to commit war crimes, that's on you. However, it's probably a standard in merc contracts, that the mercs will follow the Ares conventions. If your employer demands that you break them, it's a contract breach; committing war crimes hurts your reputation, but the Z-league mercs trying to scrape a couple of C-Bills to rub together, are often blinded by the money (but at the very least ask for a significant bonus).

Not necessarily.

First, remember that all the Great Houses suspended the Ares Conventions at the beginning of the 1st Succession War.  Even when they were in force, the Great Houses only paid lip service to some of them.  For example, there were numerous infractions against Article I - Nuclear Weapons and Article VI - Biological Weapons.  The Capellan Confederation were the first to ignore the rules during their war against the Taurian Concordat, justifying the breach by the fact that the Taurians were non-signatories.  The greatest weakness of the Ares Conventions was the fact that it did not have any penalties for ignoring its provisions (nor was there anybody to enforce them even if they did).  Not to mention that they were created to govern the conduct of nations not mercenary units.  Why would they care to include the Ares Conventions in their contracts?

Second, during the SWs, to further their long-term plans ComStar subtly encouraged greater destruction by House and mercenary units alike and therefore had little reason to include the Ares Conventions.  If they were included it was likely at the insistence of the employer or the hired unit not ComStar.

Third, there are several states that never signed onto the Ares Conventions, such as the Taurian Concordat so there was little reason for them to include them in a contract.

Fourth, given the failure rate of mercenaries units, desperate mercenaries will frequently sign anything just for a paycheck.  The Great Houses were more than happy to use such units to complete work that they didn't want their own units to dirty their hands on.

Fifth, a mercenary unit that frees up employer troops to conduct atrocities may not be breaching the literal provisions of the Ares Conventions, just the spirit.  However, just an association with the acts can extend the taint beyond the unit that committed the acts.  Just look at all the Blakist employed mercenary units that suddenly became wanted fugitives after the Jihad broke out.  Most did not get directly involved in the atrocities that took place but were still wanted by most of the Inner Sphere.