Mechwarrior 2nd ed

[victor_shaw]

what are all the books in the 2nd with rules for the rpg.
been awhile and im done with AToW.

[Medron Pryde]

The first two Field Manuals and many books before them had MechWarrior 2nd Edition rules.

The big ones that I remember were...

MechWarrior 2nd
MechWarrior 2nd Companion
Intelligence Operations Handbook
FM: FWL
FM: DC

[guardiandashi]

what are all the books in the 2nd with rules for the rpg.
been awhile and im done with AToW.

as I remember it, a lot of the scenario packs/books were written for mw 2nd edition also
such as unbound, solaris 7 boxed set, bloodright, the black thorns, the book that is not mentioned (summerset strikers) falcon and wolf, wolf clan and jade falcon sourcebooks etc.

with that said.... most of the ATOW stuff can be used easily for 2nd edition (and vice versa) the main difference being variable damage for 2nd edition for "fixed" damage for ATOW.

[victor_shaw]

ty for all the help
now dont get me wrong i like AToW as a game system but the character creation has turned off everyone ive tried to get to play it.
i dont knw why they could not have keep 3rd ed gen with the 4th system  ???

[Deadborder]

Because third edition's character creation was awful. The writers have said that themselves

[victor_shaw]

Because third edition's character creation was awful. The writers have said that themselves

yet the systems are very close to each other
in 3rd you get +1 Str
in 4th you get +75 Str (or .75 str in 3rd)
not seeing much difference here except for more math lol

[Omegawolf]

Just have them choose which Life Modules they want and then ask what type of characters they want (i.e. Mechwarrior, Soldier, Medic, Street Hustler, Solaris Games Gladiator etc) and use their Flex XPs to buy the things that fit their concept and build the character yourself before the first game. It's what I did for my players and they loved how their characters came out, and my players are notoriously picky about making the characters themselves.

[VictorMorson]

You have chosen.. wisely.  It's FAR rougher to get several months into a campaign to ditch AtoW than it is early.

My advice is whatever system you roll with, just use AtoW for reference and house rules.  It's got fairly good assembled lists of gear.  The one thing I'll say nice about it.

[guardiandashi]

ty for all the help
now dont get me wrong i like AToW as a game system but the character creation has turned off everyone ive tried to get to play it.
i dont knw why they could not have keep 3rd ed gen with the 4th system  ???

there were threads and threads about it.

what TPTB decided was that after a number of years of statflation moduleflation etc. 3rd edition (which came out in 1999) had gotten to the point that it was irrecoverably broken, in addition they looked at YEARS worth of grips and complaints about incompatibilities between the RPG, and the tactical board game, and tried to go back to what 1st and second edition had which was essentially direct rpg to board game skill translations which IMO they pretty much nailed.  I don't consider flipping a sign on modifiers that big of a deal personally.

My biggest issues with ATOW have more to do with organization, the amount of space dedicated to various explanations (that arguably aren't needed) and the leaving out of numerous "GM quick roll" encounter tables and idea hook generators that have never been reprinted between editions.

for example first and second edition had 2d6 percentile tables, for things like random assignment tables, event tables, battlefield event/encounter tables, reinforcement tables etc.  many of which boiled down to something like.

gm is stuck for ideas for what to have happen for tonight...
rolls on table 1
gets raid, or invasion, or vip, or reinforcements arrive, supplies arrive, lostech cache... etc.

then rolls details of the event, and on and on until they have the thread of an idea for a basic plan to have happen.

[PurpleDragon]

ty for all the help
now dont get me wrong i like AToW as a game system but the character creation has turned off everyone ive tried to get to play it.
i dont knw why they could not have keep 3rd ed gen with the 4th system  ???

[cheers]
And here I thought my friend and I were the only ones who liked 3rd ed; especially for the character creation. 

[victor_shaw]

[cheers]
And here I thought my friend and I were the only ones who liked 3rd ed; especially for the character creation.

you misunderstand I don't like 3rd edition, I just feel its character creation is better then the calculus test that is 4th :)

[monbvol]

you misunderstand I don't like 3rd edition, I just feel its character creation is better then the calculus test that is 4th :)

As someone who has done calculus I feel this is an extremely unfair attack on AToW.  The most complicated math you have to do in AToW isn't anything more complex than what any reasonable primary education system presents(addition, multiplication, division, subtraction).

Now I'll be fair and admit there is a lot and there could be an argument for decision overload but never that the math is complicated or hard.

[Omegawolf]

As someone who has done calculus I feel this is an extremely unfair attack on AToW.  The most complicated math you have to do in AToW isn't anything more complex than what any reasonable primary education system presents(addition, multiplication, division, subtraction).

Now I'll be fair and admit there is a lot and there could be an argument for decision overload but never that the math is complicated or hard.

And this is where forums need an upvote or "Like" option, seriously. The math is not all that difficult and that's coming from someone who absolutely despises math (sorry monbvol). Hyperbole doesn't help here and it doesn't help the designers learn where they need to fix their mistakes. And yes 4th has its share of mistakes, but claiming the math is a "calculus test" is disingenuous. Could the chargen use some streamlining and maybe some options to make it quicker? Absolutely, and I'll be the first to say so. I would love to see them put out a free PDF that cleans up the chargen process. Either that or a chargen program to help make it a little less tedious.

[monbvol]

And this is where forums need an upvote or "Like" option, seriously. The math is not all that difficult and that's coming from someone who absolutely despises math (sorry monbvol). Hyperbole doesn't help here and it doesn't help the designers learn where they need to fix their mistakes. And yes 4th has its share of mistakes, but claiming the math is a "calculus test" is disingenuous. Could the chargen use some streamlining and maybe some options to make it quicker? Absolutely, and I'll be the first to say so. I would love to see them put out a free PDF that cleans up the chargen process. Either that or a chargen program to help make it a little less tedious.

Oh no worries.  I do understand that not everyone is good at math or that it has been a while since they've dealt with even the level of math in AToW.

Bottom line though yeah I grant AToW has problems but complicated is not the term I'd use for any of them.  I do have a thread buried here somewhere where I have some fairly extensive house rules to prove that I do understand at least some of the problems.

[Omegawolf]

Thanks for doing that by the way. Checking out your links right after I type this.

[monbvol]

Which I should go back one of these days and update.  I've realized some are more complicated than they need to be and have revised some others to I hope make some sense but haven't updated that thread or any documents for.  As such I can no longer promise any of my house rules are "better" but feedback is still welcome.

[victor_shaw]

Oh no worries.  I do understand that not everyone is good at math or that it has been a while since they've dealt with even the level of math in AToW.

Bottom line though yeah I grant AToW has problems but complicated is not the term I'd use for any of them.  I do have a thread buried here somewhere where I have some fairly extensive house rules to prove that I do understand at least some of the problems.

I was not saying the math was hard, it was a figure of speech. the sheer level of math involved (not how hard it is) turns players off even before they get to play.
When you get to the table and have to pull out a spreadsheet to make character gen doable within a day it kills the game for most players before you even start.
I can personally finish a PC in about 30-45 mins, but new players with no idea about the universe have to learn about it and learn a long draw out character gen system on top of that and its a quick turnoff.

[monbvol]

See I don't think it is that bad that someone completely new to Battletech couldn't generate a character in more than a couple hours.  In my regular group there is someone who has only a GED with very limited familiarity with Battletech that I would not call good at math, a guy who did professional QA testing for a couple video game studios that also has a limited familiarity with Battletech, and Liam's Ghost.  The main reason it takes us more than an hour to do up characters is more due to our lack of focus and decision overload that is not unique to AToW.  The guy with the GED has been with us since 3rd edition but still hasn't invested in becoming as familiar with Battletech like me and Liam's Ghost have but I can tell you that without a doubt character generation has gone faster and with fewer overall errors ever since we switched from 3rd edition to AToW.  So I tend to believe if it taking more than an hour or two it is not a rules problem.

[Omegawolf]

Okay okay...let's not pile on the idea that a GED is somehow lesser. I have my GED which I studied for and received at the beginning of my junior year in high school. This was due to many and varied reasons and ultimately I've done fine for myself  O0. 

ANYWAY - another similar story would be my step-son who knows absolutely zero about this setting outside of his one failed attempt at playing MWO (he stated that the controls were messed up). He sat down with me and we whipped up a character in about an hour despite his ADHD and his very anemic reading abilities (despite being 18, he's probably at a 6th grade reading level due to factors in his early life and the ADHD of course). The extra time was due to him being a slow reader and of course some of the decisions that he needed to make. He did pick up on stuff pretty quick though, and immediately picked up Fast Learner with his left over XPs.

I had the other two players pick out their life modules due to lack of time to fully make their characters when they came over (we had about 45 minutes before they had to go) and then I had them tell me what type of character they wanted so I could build their skills towards that concept. It took me all of an hour or so to get both of their characters done later that evening. We just had our second session earlier this afternoon and I've heard zero complaints about how their characters turned out. 

[monbvol]

More of my point was that two people in my group are only familiar enough with Battletech to name most of the factions, know a few of the important leaders/other important figures, and some fairly general bits of the overall timeline and are still quite capable of generating characters in a couple hours.  So if anyone thinks I was trying to single out the person in my group with the GED as somehow inferior for it I'll apologize for my poor wording.

[Omegawolf]

I appreciate the apology, but no need really, I didn't take offense. I got your point too, which is why I added to it with my own  :). I think you and I are on the same page on this issue, I just hope others that aren't on that page eventually come to see and understand why we think the way we do, even if they don't end up agreeing with us. 

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  My beef with ATOW has been the necessity for me to audit every generated character sheet for errors, which were very often, due to the players' unfamiliarity with the system. Once the players got the min/maxing down to an art, they were creating gods on the battlefield, each with customized 'Mechs, which forced me to set skill caps and lower XP so beginning characters don't slaughter Clan units with ease.

[Omegawolf]

Honestly that's what I hate about this D&D 3.X generation of gamers. They feel they're entitled to everything and they're more worried about gaming the system than actually making a viable character. Most characters these types of players make would be worse than the worst cardboard cutout/wooden actor in Hollywood.

Either way you know what I do when I have players like that? I make the campaign about role-playing and politics more than anything. Oh, you have a 6 Skill in Small Arms, Martial Arts, Melee Weapons (and other combat skills) starting out? How quaint. You find yourself aboard a jumpship on your way to meet an administrator from the Capellan Confederation to negotiate your contract. How were those social and mental skills? Oh. Non-existent or at level 0? Well this will be an interesting round of talks to secure your contract, hope you roll high...

Most players that are like that tend not to last long in my games and end up leaving out of frustration due to the rest of my group being perfectly fine with sessions of nothing but role-play and politics and build well-rounded characters.

[Medron Pryde]

Yup...hehehe

And one thing I would say is that MW3rd is not the first RPG that allowed the creation of munchkin characters.

MW 1st and 2nd were at least as bad.

In the end the question is how you handle the players and what you do.  :)

[Atlas3060]

Either way you know what I do when I have players like that? I make the campaign about role-playing and politics more than anything. Oh, you have a 6 Skill in Small Arms, Martial Arts, Melee Weapons (and other combat skills) starting out? How quaint. You find yourself aboard a jumpship on your way to meet an administrator from the Capellan Confederation to negotiate your contract. How were those social and mental skills? Oh. Non-existent or at level 0? Well this will be an interesting round of talks to secure your contract, hope you roll high...

I think that's why I tend to enjoy the current ruleset more than earlier ones.
Books like MW1e and MW2e felt more like "We've expanded your guy to be more than Gunnery/Piloting".
However they still didn't add much to them beyond mostly combat skills.

MW3e had a better take, but the combat and damage was horrific. Also the rolling for life paths irked me a bit.
With AToW, sure there's a lot of skills; it just means a creative GM can have more fun with the players.
Your face man character may be gregarious and have decent administrative skills, but the VIP seems to be chatting it up more with your Noblewoman technician.

Oh his interests line up with her tech skills, they can talk shop. Quick use her socials for seduction roll and get more info from him!

[PurpleDragon]

I think that's why I tend to enjoy the current ruleset more than earlier ones.
Books like MW1e and MW2e felt more like "We've expanded your guy to be more than Gunnery/Piloting".
However they still didn't add much to them beyond mostly combat skills.

MW3e had a better take, but the combat and damage was horrific. Also the rolling for life paths irked me a bit.
With AToW, sure there's a lot of skills; it just means a creative GM can have more fun with the players.
Your face man character may be gregarious and have decent administrative skills, but the VIP seems to be chatting it up more with your Noblewoman technician.

Oh his interests line up with her tech skills, they can talk shop. Quick use her socials for seduction roll and get more info from him!

You see, I liked the lifepath system of 3rd ed.  Rolling the 'history' was part of the fun of character creation.  In fact, I liked it so much, I created a system for my players, who also liked it, to transfer those lifepath results into xp.  Now, I did like the combat system of 1st ed better.  bld = number of hit points (with optional rules) hit points were multiplied for locations.  Then you had two kinds of damage.  non-lethal, a slash across the box, lethal, an x in the box. 
 
 

[Atlas3060]

See that's where, as I look through MW2 again, I appreciate AToW's system for damage.
You have fatigue points separate from actual wounds. That way you can't die from bruising damage or whatever they called it.

Armor I'm kind of iffy about.
Earlier editions were just "add more hit points to you"; AToW actually takes into consideration that some guns have piercing power and some are just raw damage, but can't penetrate cardboard.

Also for the record, I didn't mind the history generated by the life paths in MW3.
I just hated how my character could be a paraplegic, chain smoking, blood marked man with three dependents just before the game even starts.

I'm still reading all the editions over combat damage, physicals for example, to see what I liked best.

[PurpleDragon]

I do like the AToW armor rules.   I have even tried to figure a way to implement something similar in D20. 

[Thorvidar]

As someone who has done calculus I feel this is an extremely unfair attack on AToW.  The most complicated math you have to do in AToW isn't anything more complex than what any reasonable primary education system presents(addition, multiplication, division, subtraction).

Now I'll be fair and admit there is a lot and there could be an argument for decision overload but never that the math is complicated or hard.

Yes and as someone taking Calculus 2 right now I dont feel that as a The gm, I need to right out the damage for the npc's that I already had spend 4 hours making. Ie: What happens if I hit the hand, the left leg, the chest....etc. with just one weapon type. The issue I have with ATOW, is much the same I have with CBT, that is at higher player counts the rolls bog down play and I need several players with calculators to figure out damage for crying out loud.

[Acolyte]

So maybe don't use optional rules during high count fights.

   - Shane

[monbvol]

Was about to mention that hit locations is the optional, not standard rule.  Now despite that I won't entirely disagree that there is an over abundance of math that can change how damage works but again it isn't what I would call complicated math and is math that I was doing by the age of 12*.  Though since I did feel the math was a bit unneeded and bogged down play as mentioned is one of the reasons I did change how Toughness and Glass Jaw work in my house rules so that the math could be done once, before any combat, and never needing to be done again.  I also don't use hit locations for similar reasons but still allow for called shots and if my players ever start thinking they can get away with wearing only torso armor I'm more than willing to hit them with a splash weapon and ruin one or more of their limbs and say they are SOL because they generally don't generate characters with sufficient levels of equipped or connections to get any of the good replacement limbs.

*For context's sake I was no prodigy skipping ahead grades or in any advanced classes.  In fact I was behind a year because of a medical condition.

[victor_shaw]

Was about to mention that hit locations is the optional, not standard rule.  Now despite that I won't entirely disagree that there is an over abundance of math that can change how damage works but again it isn't what I would call complicated math and is math that I was doing by the age of 12*.  Though since I did feel the math was a bit unneeded and bogged down play as mentioned is one of the reasons I did change how Toughness and Glass Jaw work in my house rules so that the math could be done once, before any combat, and never needing to be done again.  I also don't use hit locations for similar reasons but still allow for called shots and if my players ever start thinking they can get away with wearing only torso armor I'm more than willing to hit them with a splash weapon and ruin one or more of their limbs and say they are SOL because they generally don't generate characters with sufficient levels of equipped or connections to get any of the good replacement limbs.

*For context's sake I was no prodigy skipping ahead grades or in any advanced classes.  In fact I was behind a year because of a medical condition.

First Let me say that if it was not for your Character spreadsheet there would be no way to play this game  O0 (take a hint GCL).

But the big problem is not the complexity of the math. its the sheer amount of it both in character creation and in game.
while i like that alot of player from games like D&D (I hate it but its still one of the most played) and other RPGs are not use to this amount of math to play out a combat or create a PC.
Now perception is everything as show by Twilight 2013 were the system is great, but the story (and that just the game world story) is bad so the game failed.
So when you get some guys together and they look a 5,000 cp and all the options the first words out of there mouth is "let just play D&D or Star Wars saga etc." then the game needs work.