Author Topic: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?  (Read 82088 times)

iamfanboy

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Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« on: 20 June 2015, 16:12:59 »
So, does anyone else play D&D 5e? If so, what do you like about it and what are its shortcomings?

First of all, favorite new mechanic: Advantage/Disadvantage. So elegant and simple, yet complex in its application. Roll 2d20 and pick the best for advantage, and worst for disadvantage?

For GMs, the advent of official 'milestone leveling' is something I advocated for years anyway - prevents EP-whoring and promotes the idea that overcoming obstacles, proceeding along the Hero's Journey, is what makes one more powerful. Me likey very much. And, oh my gods, the Magic Item table with all the quirks and origins and everything? Top-notch, something I'm glad they kept from the playtest!

I also really like how they rebalanced the classes and folded the idea of prestige classes (which everyone moved on to take anyway) into the basic classes, and made each of them attractive, though for different reasons.

The fights have also been pretty fast-paced, not like the endless slugfests of the few 4e games I played.

My friend has been running two groups through the procon campaigns currently out - Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Princes of the Apocalypse.


Okay, now for what I don't like: The healing, and how damn easy it is, and I'm only a PC. Seriously, at the end of each long rest you heal everything, including your hit dice? You can spend hit dice during a short rest to recover? We've had entire adventures where the cleric has only cast maybe a single healing spell (during combat), and the only player who's died is one who INTENTIONALLY suicided his character by not healing with hit dice.

The whole game is just... well... too easy because of it, and I've been thinking of ways to tamper with that. Maybe you have to spend hit dice to heal, long rest or short, and you still recover them via normal rules - or maybe only one a night. Maybe hit dice spent during short rests are temporary hit points, to represent you muscling through the pain of injury - up to your HP maximum in temp hit points.

If I do run a more hardcore D&D 5e game (and I haven't thought about running D&D in YEARS, which shows how much I do like this new edition of the rules!), it'll be set in the Dark Sun universe or one of my own where the evil races overran the good races centuries ago, more a survival type game where things are HARD for the players, than an ordinary, Forgotten Realmsish one. I'm sick of the Forgotten Realms.

And, going back to FR, does anyone else think WotC missed a bet with not destroying one or more of the 'great' cities during their little timejump to 4e? The whole point of FR is supposed to be ancient, destroyed civilizations on top of more ancient on top of more ancient on top of more... 

They really need to do a sourcebook on the alternate campaigns, maybe just one chapter at 30-50 pagecount apiece, for the lost settings like Planescape, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, and Birthright.

Orin J.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #1 on: 20 June 2015, 16:24:40 »
haven't gotten to play it yet (half my group is on the other side of the country just now) but the advantage thing leapt out at me as pulling the element of risk out of the game. it's gone from "so you're telling me there's a chance" to accepting that even the best roll is meaningless if the GM applies disadvantage to make you turn away.

i hadn't actually looked at healing too closely until you mentioned it, but yeesh that is super easy mode. why even bother with a healer like that. it's like the people making the game lately don't understand the importance of suspense to storytelling in these sorts of things.

(i actually don't mind not having alternate setting books, it lets me write my own material to fit the campaign better. not to mention i have a few rules lawers to deal with and i'd rather strangle that baby in its crib)
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monbvol

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #2 on: 20 June 2015, 16:35:12 »
I do like the backgrounds and the magic item tables, those are great.

I on the other hand find the classes almost a little too hard to tell apart and the fighter being next to useless as a class choice.

Wizards are probably even more powerful then they used to be and I find that kind of disappointing.

There has to be a catch to the Paladin's smite ability that I haven't found yet because good grief that is potent ability that one of our group has made good use of.

Both like and dislike the proficiency simplification as it makes me feel like classes who don't have the right save proficiencies are going to get bent over harder then before by magic but as stated it is simple.

Still though having more complaints then kudos I do think it is an overall better system for my tastes than 4th and possibly even Pathfinder  .  Just maybe trim some fat out in the way of classes and some other issues I have with the skill/proficiency system and I can put it into my personal favorite d20 system spot.

iamfanboy

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #3 on: 20 June 2015, 21:24:04 »
Wow. Uh... Really? Fighters are useless? You... have read the book, right? 4 total Attacks just from the basics, 6 Ability Score Improvements (which can be swapped for feats!), Action Surge (for a total of 5 attacks!), and rerolling failed saving throws? That's not even counting the Martial Archetypes. You might not have noticed that Fighter is the only class that gets more than one Extra Attack.

Champion's the ONLY character archetype that has any ability to improve crit rates. If I were to create Drizzt in 5e he'd be a pure Battle Master (certainly not a ranger, no spellcasting!) - Battle Master is BRUTAL if you go pure fighter. Personally, I've got a fighter/rogue who's climbing up Eldritch Knight til he hits 7th level and can cast a cantrip for free - True Strike to give advantage, and hit with full backstab damage, every turn, without needing to flank and break the line. After that, rogue all the way, probably Arcane Trickster; I'm bringin' back the Fighter/Mage/Thief!

Hell, if any class got boned, it's probably the barbarian. Only two paths, the 'bonus Rage damage' is a joke, Brutal Critical is a barely useful ability (unless you go through Fighter-Champion to get Improved Critical), and its level 20 'ability' is a whopping +2 on two stat modifiers - yes, it adds 40 HP but it hardly seems like a worthwhile stretch, unlike the other level 20 abilities which are either epic or allow the class to regen points to use its epic abilities again if it's out of points. Though I was thinking about taking a level in Barb before starting up Wizard, just to get that delicious Con modifier to AC.

The reason I like advantage/disadvantage so much is because it's intuitive, fits in the paradigm of d20 very well, and it cuts down on on-the-spot math. I like intuitive rules, and it works just as well for the GM as for the players. Fragging Charm Person giving advantage to the saving throw if the target is in combat...

Divine Smite eats up the paladin's spell slots, and paladins do have a fair number of nice spells. But yeah, it's strong, like real strong. But haven't paladins always been strong?

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #4 on: 20 June 2015, 21:46:02 »
Paladins having always been strong also hinged on (in earlier editions) harsh requirements necessary to be paladins in the first place.

Also, everything you said about fighters bled into white noise that sounded like "still not a wizard" to me.

Though the assessments of Monbvol and myself are skewered by our DM not being particularly sneaky or malicious. The challenges we end up facing tend to be best dealt with immediate application of unholy amounts of force, with little need to consider conserving scarce spell resources. She never even considers turning our methodology against us.

Since Monbvol is taking the helm with his own campaign, I'm interested in seeing how tricksy he might get.
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monbvol

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #5 on: 21 June 2015, 00:01:28 »
Mostly it is the Paladin that is the problem with how unrestricted it has become in 5th edition that makes the Fighter useless.  Barbarian, reading up on it yeah I can see it is just as bad off.  Possibly worse.

From my reading of the Smite ability I can't see anything that actually stops a Paladin in 5th edition from using it on every attack during their turn if they want to sacrifice the necessary spell slots until they rest.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #6 on: 21 June 2015, 00:07:13 »
I was one of the 4th fanboys, and 5th threw most of it all out. So nope.

As is, I'm into L5R more, these days.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #7 on: 21 June 2015, 00:35:52 »
Sorry for being a little late here.  Been playing (read: GMing with a GMPC because I still want a character to have fun with) 5e for months now and absolutely LOVE it.  The advantage/disadvantage system is wonderful, and goes a long way for helping the game along.  I love the simplifications, but they're not too simplified, and they retain the right feel of complexity.  Characters with great talent in something via stats can remain strong in a skill for a long time, and the whole skill selection/background system is wonderful for making that lengthy write-up a player does for an awesome character mean something in game.

To address a few points here:
1.  iamfanboy (and anyone else who thinks healing is too easy), get the DMG and look up the "Gritty Realism" rule modification.  I think you'll love it.  I do, and it's what I impose for my campaign.  Long rests take a week of recovery, short rests are the overnighters, and healing actually requires medical attention (read: healer's kit and medicine proficiency during a short rest).  Also look up lingering injuries . . . suddenly magical healing and good medicine skills are valuable.  You want to talk about rationing resources . . . there you have it.  You'll have players asking if they're getting a long rest while travelling on a boat, or a long-haul carriage ride, etc. . . . and then you can break their heart when you make them have to defend the caravan they're riding along with from bandits.  I don't try to kill my players, but I sure as heck make them think about fights before diving in; and actually make them manage their limited healing resources.

About the only thing that kind of bones are Warlocks, but I've house-ruled it that Warlocks get one extra spell across the board, and if they take invocations that allow them to cast a spell for a spell slot, then they get a spell slot to go with it.  It's worked really well and remained balanced for my game.  Especially since a Warlock can't just take "an hour" after a fight and suddenly have their spells back with no effort.

2.  Warriors are beastly, and that Action Surge isn't just one attack . . . its ONE ACTION:  Therefore if a warrior takes the "Attack Action" for their action surge then they get a whole slew of extra attacks . . . so 8 attacks at level 20.  For an Eldritch Knight that can be a spell and 4 attacks, or a cantrip and 5 attacks.  Also, when you use "Gritty Realism" resting rules that second wind becomes a treasured ability.

3.  I use my own crafted world, so settings don't mean much to me.  Sorry, I can't really relate there; but a companion book with extensive materials on all of the available settings would be a great addition to the mix.

4.  If you all think Wizards are overpowered, then apparently you haven't gotten anything sic'd on you that counterspells, uses the "Mage Slayer" feat, or casts Hex's and Curses (especially Hex since there's NO SAVE) against your Constitution and starts throwing things at you to force concentration checks.  Their lives can easily be made hell; and those examples are just the tip of the iceberg.  I don't know about other GM's, but my monsters don't just run in and charge the tank.

5.  I'll agree that the Barbarian kinda gets the short end of the stick, but they're still really powerful.  One of the tricks is to start getting them in flanks with the Fighter, so they're getting advantage.  Then you start throwing out brutal crits like mad.  However, I have thought about giving them improved critical, as well, when they first get "Brutal Critical", or at some other appropriate time.  I think that'd serve as a good balancer, since a lot of their capability rests on those crits.  Thoughts?

6.  Yeah, paladins are strong, but they have their weaknesses . . . the biggest weakness is in their code.  If a GM isn't enforcing that, then you're letting a player break the class; which to me is a big "no-no".  To handle Divine Smite, and the rest of their abilities in general, look at where the kinks are, in their stats/build, and start exploiting them.  Being a "good" paladin still has steep requirements (like eldritch knights and arcane tricksters, their stats can get spread thin . . . if they're not, then how the heck did they get stats that good? 5e has much stricter stat rolling requirements and lower results overall, with hard caps).  Also, "Gritty Realism" keeps coming in . . . Paladins won't be so keen to throw around their limited spell capabilities when they're not getting them back until they take a week's rest.

7.  If players are getting to strong and things are too easy . . . ask this question to yourself:  Are you enforcing the 3 attuned item limit?  I had completely overlooked it for several months, and then just stumbled into the line when I was looking up loot for the party.  That reigns in characters power-bands really quick.  Sure, a basic +X weapon/armor doesn't require attunement, but if it has any other properties I can almost guarantee you it does.  The same goes for just about any "combat useful" ring, lots of items from the old "wondrous items" category (gem of seeing, for example), and lots of other useful things people love to use.  And the count of attunement limit is 3 . . . not 2, not 4, and 5 is right out.

My only disappointments were the spell point system in the DMG (already revamped it . . . can post if y'all are curious . . . I think it provides much more fluidity and sensibility; and I hate spell slots) and I personally thought the Sorcerer was the class that really got the shaft, but again . . . fixed it with house rules.  Remember that house rules make the world-go-round.  Any problem you run into can easily be dealt with using house rules.  I've got a slew of them:  some are options from the PHB & DMG, some that are modifications from the core books, but my group loves them.
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iamfanboy

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #8 on: 21 June 2015, 01:20:26 »
Mostly it is the Paladin that is the problem with how unrestricted it has become in 5th edition that makes the Fighter useless.  Barbarian, reading up on it yeah I can see it is just as bad off.  Possibly worse.
Okay, what makes Fighter good are 1) multiple Extra Attacks, which give a swing each time the Fighter uses an Attack Action, and Action Surge, which lets you get another Attack action. Does 8 Attacks in a single round, critting on 18-20, sound good? The Paladin, Ranger, and Barbarian only get a max of two (unless it goes into Fighter for two levels to get Action Surge!)

When a 5th Fighter/2nd Rogue can deal 92 damage in a single round, (admittedly with a flametongue short sword), that's pretty good, considering Mr. Evocation Wizard only dealt 42 with his lightning bolt... And yes, that just happened in our game.


And no. 4e was bad. Just bad. A single, non-boss battle should NOT take 3 hours to resolve. Half a session gone? And this was eight sessions in, we knew our powers and were running smoothly, yet it was just... bad. I'd forgive the lack of roleplaying, the MMO-style gameplay, and so much else, if it actually ran smoothly, but 4e still never did.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #9 on: 21 June 2015, 02:45:41 »
Wizards and Sorcerers have been much more normalized in terms of power progression, too.  There are still certain high level spells that function as win-conditions, but the mid-level stuff has significantly canted away from ungodly ability.  Of particular note, attribute increasing spells no longer exist, and Mage Armor instead changes base AC to 13 + mods, instead of providing a flat bonus.  This, by itself, goes a long way toward combating the wizard who fears nothing. 

I'd definitely take a look at the current spells list, and then remember that the probably literal thousands of feats from 3.5e that could be taken to boost Wizard power to stupid ridiculous levels no longer exist.
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monbvol

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #10 on: 21 June 2015, 09:19:34 »
Okay I missed that Gritty Realism rule in my previous read throughs and that really does make some of those Fighter abilities become a lot more useful.

I think I am going to implement that for my pending campaign.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #11 on: 21 June 2015, 10:01:27 »
I still don't see how Fighter is useless. With a race in 3.5 and the right feats, you could charge a Wizard from beyond visual range and deal 100s of untyped d6 damage. And you get two charges a turn.  :P

monbvol

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #12 on: 21 June 2015, 10:56:04 »
Fighter in 3.5 was still a little lacking in a couple areas but certainly wasn't useless.  5th it goes from something you at best use to  make other classes better to a well and truly frightening tank depending on rules used.

I'll admit somehow I missed those harsher healing and resting rules in the DMG and with those in play it completely brings a much more frightening aspect to the class and how they would wreck havoc with my group's usual tactics is just another huge plus that makes me now consider them standard in any future campaigns I run for 5th edition.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #13 on: 21 June 2015, 11:34:12 »
And no. 4e was bad. Just bad. A single, non-boss battle should NOT take 3 hours to resolve. Half a session gone? And this was eight sessions in, we knew our powers and were running smoothly, yet it was just... bad. I'd forgive the lack of roleplaying, the MMO-style gameplay, and so much else, if it actually ran smoothly, but 4e still never did.
Yeah . . . 4e almost made me cry when I first saw it . . . it was that bad to me.  I was calling it World of Warcrack on paper.  I just stuck with 3.5 through everything . . . and never really made the transition to Pathfinder . . . I just kind of blended the stuff together when people wanted to play Pathfinder based characters in my setting (which conveniently worked out smoothly most of the time, since Pathfinder was a ripoff of 3.5).

Okay I missed that Gritty Realism rule in my previous read throughs and that really does make some of those Fighter abilities become a lot more useful.

I think I am going to implement that for my pending campaign.
It is a glorious rules modification.  Seriously, the game takes on a whole new feel with it in place.  You might want to make note of what I had listed, though, with the Warlock, because that can have a pretty hefty effect on them with their extremely limited spell roster.

I still don't see how Fighter is useless. With a race in 3.5 and the right feats, you could charge a Wizard from beyond visual range and deal 100s of untyped d6 damage. And you get two charges a turn.  :P
Although you can't quite recreate that for 5e, the wonderful thing is that Mobility, Spring Attack, and other related feats are just blended into regular gameplay . . . you can move, hit, move, hit, move, etc. until you run out of movement and attacks.  The fact that movement isn't limited exclusively to before an attack (without feats) makes a world of difference for gameplay.

Fighter in 3.5 was still a little lacking in a couple areas but certainly wasn't useless.  5th it goes from something you at best use to  make other classes better to a well and truly frightening tank depending on rules used.

I'll admit somehow I missed those harsher healing and resting rules in the DMG and with those in play it completely brings a much more frightening aspect to the class and how they would wreck havoc with my group's usual tactics is just another huge plus that makes me now consider them standard in any future campaigns I run for 5th edition.
Don't forget lingering injuries . . . every time someone goes down (or is hit with a crit) you can roll on the table to see how screwed up they get.  Some things on the table are resolvable with good medicine skills and/or minor magical healing.  Other things require some hefty magical healing (like losing an eye or limb).  That can be a huge resource drain if they're not prepared for it, or they get careless.

Granted, I'm not rolling lingering injuries every time someone is crit, or goes down; but if the damage is really high on the roll, or if someone just got dropped to 0 from something like a dragon bite . . . then yeah, there's going to be lingering injuries.  Tell that guy with a festering wound or internal injuries that the healer is out of juice, because he went all gun-ho in the last fight.  I assure you, the party will not be thrilled over their folly and will think twice about how they fight in the future.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #14 on: 21 June 2015, 12:00:55 »
4E drove me back to 3.5 and Pathfinder. 5E fixed a lot of things and I don't mind it for the most part.

A couple of things bug me about 5E:
1) Character generation has...I'm not sure of the word. 3.5 had a few neat, distinct aspects of characters: attributes, skills, feats, and class-specific powers. They each have their own roles. 5E has a bunch of muddled, overlapping feats, powers, features, powers, characteristics, and backgrounds.

2) The shortage of skills. I prefer the 3.5/Pathfinder proliferation of skills and skill points.

Otherwise, the combat system and game play of 5E are fine. I've had quite a bit of fun in 5E sessions. It seems to play faster than 3.5.
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iamfanboy

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #15 on: 21 June 2015, 12:12:58 »
Okay, this options chapter is full of more happiness for me than a grab bag of minis.

Gritty Realism probably isn't good for the precon campaigns that my current GM is running, because the encounters are balanced assuming typical short/long rest times, but Slow Natural Healing (spend HD to heal at the end of a long rest), and Healer's Kit Dependency (can't spend HD to heal in a short rest without expending a healer's kit charge) would work great.

What I'm liking a lot (and not just because I'm playing a halfling using a finesse weapon!) is the Initiative Score (where you don't roll, but Init is 10+Dex mod+other mods) and Speed Factor (where your initiative is modified on Action, like casting a spell is -Spell Level, Light/Finesse weapons give +2, and Gargantuan inflicts a -8 penalty). Combining the two of them would allow for faster combats that still give variables based on action. Injuries and Massive Damage are also pretty good too.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #16 on: 21 June 2015, 12:18:42 »
...
As is, I'm into L5R more, these days.

L5R is my favorite RPG system.  It's good to see other people are playing it, too.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #17 on: 21 June 2015, 13:33:04 »
I'm loving 5e, even after the rough change from 3.5. Some assorted observations:

  • The Fighter isn't as front loaded as it once was, though you don't spend high levels as a walking piece of partial cover either.

    Cantrips allow spellcasters to contribute consistently while keeping the good stuff under control.

    Healing is easy, which lets the cleric be something other than a walking first aid kit. It sucked spending a campaign unable to cast any spells because I'd need to heal someone instead.

    Easy healing is balanced against the reduced number of defensive spells. You can't stack advantage or resistance to the point of invulnerability, so you will be taking your licks in a fight.

    Trading stat growth for feats can be slightly unbalanced by the hard cap on stats. Losing out on a point of strength doesn't mean much to someone with a 19 in the first place.

    Charged items are much more reasonable now. Limited charges that restore over time gives you an incentive to be judicious in you use, but not terrified that you'll run out. On the flip side you can use your toy safely, but you can't fight an army with a single Wand of Fireball.

    The change to spellcasting allows utility spells to show up much more often. Your lose nothing by preparing Locate Object now that it isn't tying up a specific slot.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #18 on: 21 June 2015, 14:34:45 »
I haven't gotten to play yet, but I do like what I've seen about the game.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #19 on: 21 June 2015, 14:57:24 »
4E drove me back to 3.5 and Pathfinder. 5E fixed a lot of things and I don't mind it for the most part.

A couple of things bug me about 5E:
1) Character generation has...I'm not sure of the word. 3.5 had a few neat, distinct aspects of characters: attributes, skills, feats, and class-specific powers. They each have their own roles. 5E has a bunch of muddled, overlapping feats, powers, features, powers, characteristics, and backgrounds.

2) The shortage of skills. I prefer the 3.5/Pathfinder proliferation of skills and skill points.

Otherwise, the combat system and game play of 5E are fine. I've had quite a bit of fun in 5E sessions. It seems to play faster than 3.5.

The number of skills and skill points in 3.5 was ridiculous and unwieldy.  I much prefer the less cumbersome solution in 5e to skills.

Character generation, 5e all the way.  Generation, mind you, not progression.  Generation in 5e consists of race (and potentially sub-race), attributes, class, a couple classes have extra skill proficiencies to pick, and a couple classes pick sub-classes at first level.  I can sit down someone new to the game and walk them through generating a character in six dice rolls and twenty minutes.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #20 on: 21 June 2015, 15:53:56 »
Don't forget backgrounds. A buddy's girlfriend who'd never gamed before became entranced by the peasant hero background and even came up with a story as to why she was adventuring in the wilderness. Some of them arguably have more utility than others (the background that can get food for up to 5 PCs is great), but that's not really their point.
 


As far as L5R goes, it's one of my favorite settings bar none, but the times I've ran L5R it's been disastrous - first game, first NPC attack, I killed a PC outright. And it was just supposed to be grotty bandits versus samurai, to get them acquainted with combat! That was the END of open-rolling dice as a GM for me.


It really is too bad that I have too many other games going on to pick up GM'ing 5e. Meh, I guess I really don't - half of my Hell on Earth/Shadowrun group is moving away; the superhero game is PC-driven not GM-driven so it's pretty easy; and the Mass Effect game was dead after the first adventure.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #21 on: 21 June 2015, 16:27:53 »
What rules were you using for the Mass Effect game?
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #22 on: 21 June 2015, 16:44:11 »
The number of skills and skill points in 3.5 was ridiculous and unwieldy.  I much prefer the less cumbersome solution in 5e to skills.

I like how Pathfinder tightened up in some redundant, perception-related 3.5 skills like notice / hear / smell / dowse and other perception-type skills - there were too many skills. However, 5E took out a lot of knowledge, craft, profession, and interaction skills that had ended many roleplaying situation arguments in my group. It's been frustrating to lose that quantification of PCs' knowledge and abilities in 5E.

Don't forget backgrounds. A buddy's girlfriend who'd never gamed before became entranced by the peasant hero background and even came up with a story as to why she was adventuring in the wilderness. Some of them arguably have more utility than others (the background that can get food for up to 5 PCs is great), but that's not really their point.

Backgrounds: perfect example of 5E's unnecessary separation of rules that bugs me about 5E character generation. Instead of handling them as feats, the way 3.5 and Pathfinder handled many character aspects, 5E separates backgrounds into their own set of rules.
« Last Edit: 21 June 2015, 16:55:21 by cray »
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Scotty

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #23 on: 21 June 2015, 17:20:17 »
That's because backgrounds are 100% optional.  They are not a required part of character generation if you already have a character in mind, and having it as part of the required generation rules would be redundant and inconvenient.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #24 on: 21 June 2015, 17:38:43 »
i'm inclined to disagree, scotty but i'll settle for leaving it at that because trading stupid PC tricks to argue a point goes nowhere and it much less entertaining online.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #25 on: 21 June 2015, 19:19:38 »
Okay, this options chapter is full of more happiness for me than a grab bag of minis.

Gritty Realism probably isn't good for the precon campaigns that my current GM is running, because the encounters are balanced assuming typical short/long rest times, but Slow Natural Healing (spend HD to heal at the end of a long rest), and Healer's Kit Dependency (can't spend HD to heal in a short rest without expending a healer's kit charge) would work great.

What I'm liking a lot (and not just because I'm playing a halfling using a finesse weapon!) is the Initiative Score (where you don't roll, but Init is 10+Dex mod+other mods) and Speed Factor (where your initiative is modified on Action, like casting a spell is -Spell Level, Light/Finesse weapons give +2, and Gargantuan inflicts a -8 penalty). Combining the two of them would allow for faster combats that still give variables based on action. Injuries and Massive Damage are also pretty good too.
You've gotta love the options sections in all the books.  They do a great deal to let you customize your game.  However, house rules can still mean a great deal in fixing up the little kinks you find, here and there, that just don't quite mesh with what you want.

I'm loving 5e, even after the rough change from 3.5. Some assorted observations:

  • The Fighter isn't as front loaded as it once was, though you don't spend high levels as a walking piece of partial cover either.

    Cantrips allow spellcasters to contribute consistently while keeping the good stuff under control.

    Healing is easy, which lets the cleric be something other than a walking first aid kit. It sucked spending a campaign unable to cast any spells because I'd need to heal someone instead.

    Easy healing is balanced against the reduced number of defensive spells. You can't stack advantage or resistance to the point of invulnerability, so you will be taking your licks in a fight.

    Trading stat growth for feats can be slightly unbalanced by the hard cap on stats. Losing out on a point of strength doesn't mean much to someone with a 19 in the first place.

    Charged items are much more reasonable now. Limited charges that restore over time gives you an incentive to be judicious in you use, but not terrified that you'll run out. On the flip side you can use your toy safely, but you can't fight an army with a single Wand of Fireball.

    The change to spellcasting allows utility spells to show up much more often. Your lose nothing by preparing Locate Object now that it isn't tying up a specific slot.
The setup for allowing healers in general to do more than heal is nice, but I do agree with a lot of the sentiment that healing gets too easy in the majority of D&D 5e.  I'm a HUGE advocate of the "Gritty Realism" Rules.

Also . . . ritual casting . . . dear God does that allow utility spells to come to the forefront like crazy.  I've never been more happy to see a Bard taking Leomund's Tiny Hut to keep the party safe during their nightly rests; and that's just one example among many.

The number of skills and skill points in 3.5 was ridiculous and unwieldy.  I much prefer the less cumbersome solution in 5e to skills.

Character generation, 5e all the way.  Generation, mind you, not progression.  Generation in 5e consists of race (and potentially sub-race), attributes, class, a couple classes have extra skill proficiencies to pick, and a couple classes pick sub-classes at first level.  I can sit down someone new to the game and walk them through generating a character in six dice rolls and twenty minutes.
Right with you, there.  Honestly, Pathfinder didn't help any, either.  Yeah, Pathfinder condensed a great deal of skill together (that needed it, by the way; and I house-ruled similar stuff for 3.5), but when you're having skills reach a +30 skill rating (with item boosts) then what's the point, anymore.  You've got to have difficulties of 40+ to mean anything, and the core stats don't mean much when the skill rating is 4-5 times the stat boost a person will have.

At least in 5e a fighter who came from a criminal background and has thieves tools doesn't become utterly useless for such a task, as just one example.  Also, someone who has a really high natural Wisdom, but isn't proficient in Insight, isn't utterly dense about what's going on around them.

I like how Pathfinder tightened up in some redundant, perception-related 3.5 skills like notice / hear / smell / dowse and other perception-type skills - there were too many skills. However, 5E took out a lot of knowledge, craft, profession, and interaction skills that had ended many roleplaying situation arguments in my group. It's been frustrating to lose that quantification of PCs' knowledge and abilities in 5E.

Backgrounds: perfect example of 5E's unnecessary separation of rules that bugs me about 5E character generation. Instead of handling them as feats, the way 3.5 and Pathfinder handled many character aspects, 5E separates backgrounds into their own set of rules.
In reality, if you look at what knowledge skills cover, most of the redundant stuff was covered (all the creature type knowledge skills are now put under their respective affiliations:  Undead-Religion, Animal/Monstrosity-Nature, Oozes/Dragons/Abberations-Arcana, etc.).  Now, I did house rule two knowledge skills back in, but I felt History didn't adequately cover Politics (politics covering generic appraisals, customs, cultures, etiquette, etc.), and I tacked in Cryptology to go into some of the more obscure things out there (covering things like dungeoneering, patterns, riddles, etc.).  Regardless, most everything is covered by the skills that you have, by default.

As far as crafts and whatnot, that's what tools are, now.  They cover a much broader array of things to be taken into consideration.  Now, if you want players to be as good at something as an NPC would be, then that's what Expertise is for, as far as I'm concerned.  Only Rogues and Bards spend enough time outside the whole adventuring/combat gigs to really learn trades or skills like a professional expert in the NPC world.

On the other hand, you still have all the social skills you need.  Persuasion covers Diplomacy/Haggling/Debating, while Deception covers Manipulation/Seduction/Conning/Lying, and Insight prevents people from getting duped, and acts as the Sense Motive of 5e and the "Social Will Save" of 3.5 or Pathfinder.

You have a problem with Backgrounds?  That's kind of sad, but to each their own.  I think they're wonderful additions to bringing a character to life from a concept.  Also, the "Background Traits" do a wonderful job of filling in a great deal of the mundane stuff that most parties don't want to deal with (and many GM's for that matter).  Just having a "Wanderer" in the group can save a GM and party from having to track rations for mundane trips between locations.  At the same time the Peasant "Folk Hero" and the "Sailor/Pirate" gets the group the transportation it needs to make that trip, with no fuss.
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Scotty

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #26 on: 21 June 2015, 19:30:48 »
I'm also a really big fan of switching to making saves against attributes, rather than breaking them into Reflex/Will/Fortitude.  And the general way that base attack bonuses and AC were cut off at the knees.  A 20th level fighter gets a +6 attack bonus in weapons he or she is proficient with.  +6.  None of that +20/+15/+10/+5 bullshit.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #27 on: 21 June 2015, 20:41:31 »
That is something I both like and dislike myself.  I love the simplification and how it reinforces my belief that no matter your build there should be no automatic "dump stat" but it can make saving against certain spells a bit more problematic.

I've actually disliked how Weapon Proficiencies have been handled for a while now.  Even with the feats of 3.5 and Pathfinder a Fighter who focused on their Longsword fighting techniques was still nearly as useful if they had to switch to a Warhammer instead.

Skills, I am of a mixed mind about that.  It does make those large numbers less problematic by cutting them off at the knees but at the same time it feels like there are not enough variety of skills to the typical PC.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #28 on: 21 June 2015, 20:48:53 »
I think that's deliberate.  And remember that the maximum difference (unmodified by feats) between a proficient skill and a non-proficient skill is 6 points (plus probably some stuff about complex checks I'm forgetting right now).  The level of skills required to actually be useful in X or Y skill plummeted almost as far as the numbers.  Just about anyone can do something in any skill.

Which is leaving aside how PCs probably shouldn't be too greatly varied in their skillsets, or you lose any reason to have a full party aside from HP sponges and damage per turn.

I think the prevailing change in 5e is that now just about any character can be useful and it's damn near impossible to build yourself a character that won't work in some fashion.  Characters can still excel in chosen areas, but lacking one of those chosen areas across a party isn't nearly as catastrophic as it was in mid-high level 3.5/Pathfinder.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #29 on: 21 June 2015, 22:23:48 »
And that is honestly one of my problems with it.  That you can improvise around a missing class/role makes the classes less distinct, thus making cooperation/planning among the PCs less important but then again I've been toying around with the thought that there are just too many classes and it has been that way for a few editions now.