Author Topic: Objective Raids  (Read 19517 times)

BrokenMnemonic

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Objective Raids
« on: 28 April 2011, 14:41:38 »
I've been reading on the Sarna.net wiki that Objective Raids is apparently notorious for being rife with errors - Tikonov not being listed as industrial centre is given as an example - but the internet hasn't yielded up anything that looks like an errata or fan-made update for this publication. Does such a thing exist anywhere? I've had a chance to read the fan-made Objective Raids: 3067, which has a fascinating amount of detail, but I'm actually looking at working back from the published Objective Raids towards targets worth raiding during the 4th Succession War era.

It's more interesting than optimal, and therefore better. O0 - Weirdo

Neko_Bijin

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #1 on: 28 April 2011, 14:47:09 »
The book was sold paired with Hot Spots and wasn't meant to be comprehensive, only to provide a "currently hiring" list of opportunities for Mercenary players.
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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #2 on: 28 April 2011, 14:56:12 »
Is MadCapellan's version up somewhere? He redid it and its been basically canonized. I'd check that out
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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #3 on: 28 April 2011, 15:50:49 »
What do you mean, "basically"?
"Lord Kurita is merciful.  You will be spared the humiliation of a trial.  Instead, you are invited to dine with your sainted ancestors.  You don't follow?  Let me rephrase.  I am about to run you through with my sword.  Now you get the picture?  Good."

Nanaki

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #4 on: 28 April 2011, 15:59:02 »
Is MadCapellan's version up somewhere? He redid it and its been basically canonized. I'd check that out

Edit: Nevermind, found it.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2011, 16:01:19 by Nanaki »


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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #6 on: 28 April 2011, 16:14:37 »
The book was sold paired with Hot Spots and wasn't meant to be comprehensive, only to provide a "currently hiring" list of opportunities for Mercenary players.

Objective Raids wasn't paird with Hot Spots.   Hot Spots was a 2-book set, one book of contracts and one book of behind the scenes stuff with GM's notes.
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BrokenMnemonic

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #7 on: 28 April 2011, 16:48:21 »
The book was sold paired with Hot Spots and wasn't meant to be comprehensive, only to provide a "currently hiring" list of opportunities for Mercenary players.
Where was this detailed, please? My copy of Hot Spots indicates that it's a companion volume to the Mercenary's Handbook: 3055, and that to use it the BattleTech Compendium, Mechwarrior 2nd Edition, BattleTroops, BattleForce and/or BattleSpace are needed, depending on the type of campaign being played. It also indicates that the Intelligence Operations Handbook provides useful background. It's dated 1993, a year later than Objective Raids, a keyword search on the .pdf version finds no matches for "Objective Raids" and the Objective Raids book makes no mention of Hot Spots at all that I can find.

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BrokenMnemonic

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #8 on: 28 April 2011, 16:52:00 »
Is MadCapellan's version up somewhere? He redid it and its been basically canonized. I'd check that out
Red Pins kindly provided me with a copy after I asked about Objective Raids: 3067, having seen the thread on fan works elsewhere here on the forum. I think Objective Raids: 3067 is a great piece of work, but I'm hoping that if the original FASA Objective Raids is as notoriously error and omission prone as the BT Wiki seems to think it is, there's an errata document or something out there highlighting at least the more serious problems, so that I don't have to do a side by side comparison between the two and adjust backwards from 3067...

It's more interesting than optimal, and therefore better. O0 - Weirdo

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #9 on: 28 April 2011, 16:56:25 »
Objective Raids... yeah. When it comes to that book, trust but verify- a ton of stuff in there ended up pretty wonky. Which is, my guess, probably why they never did an updated version (MadCap's aside)- what a pain in the derriere!

I don't have my copy handy, but there's several places that had errors that damn near jump off the page.
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Neko_Bijin

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #10 on: 28 April 2011, 16:57:03 »
You're right, it was Contracts paired with Hot spots.
"Lord Kurita is merciful.  You will be spared the humiliation of a trial.  Instead, you are invited to dine with your sainted ancestors.  You don't follow?  Let me rephrase.  I am about to run you through with my sword.  Now you get the picture?  Good."

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #11 on: 28 April 2011, 17:06:29 »
No, FASA wasn't big on errata, and given how old the book is, Catalyst (at least during my tenure as Errata Coordinator) decided not to allocate resources to it. Updated information can be found in various Catalyst and FanPro sources.
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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #12 on: 28 April 2011, 18:19:41 »
No, FASA wasn't big on errata

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #13 on: 28 April 2011, 18:38:41 »
Is MadCapellan's version up somewhere? He redid it and its been basically canonized. I'd check that out

Just because I'm now Catalyst's factory guy doesn't mean Objective Raids 3067 is "basically canonized"  The overwhelming majority of it is good information.  Some of it was educated guesswork.  None of it is in any way binding on Catalyst.  If a Catalyst product contradicts my fan book, it's Catalyst that's right.  If something appears in my fan book, and it doesn't appear in a Catalyst product, it's a clever fabrication which doesn't directly contradict canon but has no bearing on it whatsoever.


Shijima_3085

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #14 on: 28 April 2011, 22:18:34 »
Thank you for the clever fabrications.   8)

tabletopgamer6886

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #15 on: 08 May 2011, 10:13:42 »
Hello.  I'm Jeffrey Layton, and I wrote the original Objective Raids.

Given the current feeling toward my book and the errors in it, I really had to work up my courage before stepping up to post.  I would, however, like to mention the reality of the conditions under which it was written.

In those days, information wasn't as easily available as it is now in the computer era.  The various writers working for FASA at the time weren't always in very good contact with one another and sometimes they didn't seem to keep track of the other printed material out there, so there was quite a bit of conflicting detail in the source material I was working with.  I had to make a lot of decisions as to which version to use when the books were at odds with each other.

Of course I'm human and with that mass of material, you can bet that I made mistakes too.  I wasn't a professional writer.  I was a gamer - just a kid fresh out of high school with a bunch of notebooks filled with hand written notes scattered all over my house.  It wasn't an organized team effort - it was just me and my notes.

As an aside, I submitted the first few chapters of the book as typewritten pages until Sam Lewis told me that the office ladies at FASA were pitching a fit about having to retype it and he needed me to find a way to get the material to him on floppy disk.  I'd never used a computer before and I certainly couldn't afford one.  Two of my friends did have computers and they typed up my notes for me.  FASA got half the material in Apple format and half in PC.

Finally, I'd just like to say that Tikonov WAS listed in the final draft I submitted to FASA.  That error at least was on the part of the editors.  It's my understanding that some publishers allow the author to see the final stage of material before sending a book to press, but that wasn't the case with either of my books.

Despite the errors, I think that Objective Raids did what it was intended to by serving as a reference material for both gamers and writers for the BattleTech game.  At least it gave us some sort of foundation to work from.

Anyway, it's great to see that BattleTech is still going strong.  I haven't written anything since Tukayyid (though I did just start a gaming blog:  www.gamingtabletop.com  it's the only "writing" that I've done in twenty years now!), and I quit gaming for a while.  Now I'm playing BattleTech again, using rebased MechWarrior: Dark Age figs for games with my kids.

Finally, I'd like to say that I have a great deal of respect for MadCapellan for his Objective Raids: 3067 project.  I was tearing my hair out when working on the original, and there's so much more source material for him to have to keep track of that it's amazing to me that anyone could manage it.  Congratulations!

--Jeff

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #16 on: 08 May 2011, 10:21:28 »
Thank you for coming on the boards Jeff.  Sounds like it must been really rough writing up the original.  Hearing how things were at FASA when you were putting together the Objective Raids gives least me prespective on things.   I'm always referring to it despite the errors as peek that time frame!
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Frabby

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #17 on: 08 May 2011, 10:49:21 »
Hello.  I'm Jeffrey Layton, and I wrote the original Objective Raids.
:o
Wow. I lack words for how cool it is how have the authors of old coming back and talking about stuff here!  [rockon]

Given the current feeling toward my book and the errors in it, I really had to work up my courage before stepping up to post.  I would, however, like to mention the reality of the conditions under which it was written.
I think you've got the wrong idea. People love Objective Raids, it's gotta be one of the most-quoted, most referred book in any BT campaign game. And I for one don't blame the errors and omissions solely on one single author; factchecking problems were endemic in FASA times (and not only for FASA).

Would you mind if this posting of yours was copied over verbatim to the Sarna.net BattleTechWiki?
Of course you're invited to join that site's ranks of editors as well, perhaps you have some bits and pieces to add!
 :)

Edit: Typos
« Last Edit: 08 May 2011, 15:31:55 by Frabby »
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Xotl

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #18 on: 08 May 2011, 13:35:28 »
I have to echo Frabby's post: people know about the errors in Objective Raids and are sometimes frustrated by them, but overall it remains a popular book and a popular concept here on the boards, enough so that Herb (the current Line Developer) still gets pestered to produce a new one.

It's easy for people to forget what it was like in the pre-internet days, with no community to work off of, no email for easy communication, and no central collection of databases, spreadsheets and other collections of key data.  Also, fan products have one key advantage: no deadlines.  You can take as long as you want on it, show it to as many people as desired, and tweak to your heart's content - all not possible in a printed product with an NDA and a deadline.  Several of the bigger fan projects on these boards were just as error-prone or more in their initial stages (mine was total crap), before being subjected to cross-checking by the forums over a year or more.

Anyways, thanks for posting and giving us a look behind the scenes.  Welcome to the forums.
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tabletopgamer6886

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #19 on: 08 May 2011, 13:44:19 »
Thank you for the replies. 

I'm glad to hear that some of the BattleTech players out there like Objective Raids!  When I started gaming again and actually looked at some the reviews of it out there, I admit it stung a bit.

Sure, you're more than welcome to copy anything I post to the BattleTechWiki.  Thanks for asking!  (-:

As a freelance writer, my only contact with FASA was by mail and phone.  So I doubt that I have much to add other than in regards to Objective Raids and Tukayyid.  I'm more than happy to try to answer any questions about them to the best of my ability though.

I can tell you that things with the BattleTech line were a mess for a while when I was working for FASA though.  I forget the name of the gentleman in charge of BattleTech when I started work on Tukayyid, but when Mike Mulvihill took over the line (just as I was finishing up the manuscript), he told me that he inherited a bunch of projects that were just empty folders with no work finished on them at all.  It must have been a nightmare for the company at the time, though they got it all straightened out.

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #20 on: 08 May 2011, 14:01:34 »
objective raids is one of my favorate resources right up there with the star league sourcebook for history/fluff and mercenary's handbook 3055

to be honest one of my dream books/series  would be an objective raids style book for more eras
IE 2750ish
3025ish
3040ish
3050 (basically the one we have)
3060ish
3075-80ish

or even a 3085ish dated one with time frames for various facilities
like the blah factory went online (year) and by (year) was in full production producing (product) and was damaged in (year) reducing production to ...  it was repaired in (year) and destroyed by (unit) on (date)

that would give us a lot of info as a gm /player about what to expect

btw I LOVED the writeup of the marauder II factory

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #21 on: 08 May 2011, 14:17:26 »
Yeah, objective raids was an essential sourcebook for a number of campaigns I played in back in the day too.  It's an amazing resource and given the era some errors are to be expected.
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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #22 on: 08 May 2011, 14:41:59 »
Objective Raids was far and away my favorite sourcebook growing up. 
I spent several years pre-internet looking for a copy and treasured it
thereafter. 
Your stupid little opinion has been duly noted.

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #23 on: 08 May 2011, 15:19:11 »
Mr. Layton,

Thank you so much for your commendation, it truly means alot to me!  As I explained my fanbook's introduction, ObjectiveRaids has been my favorite sourcebook forever.  As a young player, I loved that book to near death, flipping through it so much it had to be rebound with duct tape.  I marked the unit deployments on the maps inside with colored dots to denote unit experience.  It was an awe-inspiring work of universe data.  I don't fault you your errors in it, as I know full-well the difficulty involved in compiling so much data, and that I relied on this entire CBT internet community to gut-check each chapter of my fanbook before compiling it into the completed document, a luxury you'd have never had.  There is no such thing as an error free sourcebook, as much as we'd like it.  We can only do our best with what we have.  Thank you!  Your inspiration has brought me to where I am now working with Catalyst! 

Neko_Bijin

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #24 on: 08 May 2011, 15:57:43 »
I've gotten a lot of pleasure out of your work.  Many thanks.
"Lord Kurita is merciful.  You will be spared the humiliation of a trial.  Instead, you are invited to dine with your sainted ancestors.  You don't follow?  Let me rephrase.  I am about to run you through with my sword.  Now you get the picture?  Good."

nckestrel

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #25 on: 08 May 2011, 16:22:45 »
I have to add to those saying this was my favorite sourcebook, certainly the most used.  My copy was just a pile of loose pages in a folder for decades, the binding long gone.
Thank you.
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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #26 on: 08 May 2011, 18:11:23 »
Mr. Layton, I have just one thing to say regarding Objective Raids:  O0

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #27 on: 08 May 2011, 19:56:18 »
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  Objective Raids is one of my fav sourcebooks of all time.  And one of my most used.

I love it and still use it to this day.  :)

Thanks for making the book.  hehehe.
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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #28 on: 08 May 2011, 20:41:11 »
I have to add to those saying this was my favorite sourcebook, certainly the most used.  My copy was just a pile of loose pages in a folder for decades, the binding long gone.
Thank you.

You should see mine; kept together with packing tape and covered in marginalia.

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Re: Objective Raids
« Reply #29 on: 08 May 2011, 22:51:29 »
Mr. Layton,

Even before you posted here, the earlier portion of this thread, despite some of the criticism, piqued my interest enough that I tracked down a copy of Objective Raids used on Amazon and had it delivered a few days ago.  After reading it over on the beach at Bald Head Island over the weekend, I am really impressed with this prize.  I'm no expert on the fluff so a lot of it is over my head, but an example to its continued relevance is right in the first few pages.  We're playing through the Starterbook: Sword and Dragon Campaign and my players want to continue using McKinnon's Raiders in an ongoing campaign through the clan invasion.  I was skeptical of how such a small unit raiding party would ever work, as I figured they would be destroyed before ever making planetfall.  Your writeup of small unit raiding tactics, disguising jumps, using pirate points, was great and will really flesh out our campaign.  So thanks for this great work that's still keeping games going today!