Kitting out a Vincent for long-term exploration - what to bring?

[Giovanni Blasini]

So, once upon a time in the FGC'62, I did some math after getting ahold of a Vincent Mk 39:

39.52 tons/burn-day fuel * 365.25 days/year * 5 years = 72163.4 tons for 5 years worth of burn-days of fuel.

For 250 people, 5 years worth of supplies would be:

153 crew in standard quarters / 200 man-days/ton of supplies * 365.25 days/year * 5 years = 1397.1 tons

32 crew in bays / 20 man-days/ton of supplies * 365.25 days/year * 5 years = 2922 tons

Lessons: Bay personnel use way more supplies than those in quarters, and I have no idea why the Vincent has 24 gunners for a ship that really only needs eight.

But still, for less than 77 thousand tons, your Vincent can carry far more fuel than it could possibly use over five years, plus five years worth of food for its entire crew, and still have nearly 20 kilotons available in its cargo hold.

Why five years?  Well, for five-year missions of exploration, of course!  Even at a relatively sluggish 200 hours/jump, a Vincent could make a 3200 light-year round trip within five years.  In reality, the amount of fuel I chose is probably massively excessive, and finding water sources to mine for hydrogen along the way should also be possible.

So, kitting out a Vincent in one go to spend five, ten years or even longer in one go for a long-range exploration mission should be easy enough, relatively, to do.  How, though, would you deck out such a ship?

Let's start with the obvious: you have to fill out your 6 fighter and 4 small craft bays.  You need landing parties full of redshirts to explore these planets you're going to boldly go to.  Lastly, the only groups likely to do something like this would be the Terran Hegemony or Star League, Comstar's Explorer Corps, or maybe Interstellar Expeditions in canon, though this was also the plan for FGC Niops who, sadly, lack such a ship in canon.

Given the above list, though, let's stick to Star League Regular availability during the Star League era, to use the MUL for an example. So, Prowler Exploration Vehicles and Ares Mk I landing craft to shuttle them to the surface?  Standard infantry or Nighthawk PA(L) enhanced redshirts?  Aerospace fighters or LAMs for dual-role, or a mix of both?  What other supplies or spares would you need to bring?

[cray]

Bigger gravdecks for crew health, if you don't mind mods?

More crew quarters for bay personnel and explorers?

[Vition2]

Given the above list, though, let's stick to Star League Regular availability during the Star League era, to use the MUL for an example. So, Prowler Exploration Vehicles and Ares Mk I landing craft to shuttle them to the surface?  Standard infantry or Nighthawk PA(L) enhanced redshirts?  Aerospace fighters or LAMs for dual-role, or a mix of both?  What other supplies or spares would you need to bring?

First thing's first, you've chosen the Vincent which is one of the most modifiable warship designs to have been created, so I am going to take advantage of that fact.

Well, one of the first things I would try to bring - and modify the Vincent to accommodate - would be a dropshuttle (or two) intended to convert water into fuel and transport it from a surface to the warship.  This one modification would both increase the range and the versatility available to the mission.  Rather than bunkerage for 5 years worth of fuel, it could be decreased to 6 months, the resulting increase in available space can be used for other things to increase both the versatility and range of the mission.  One of the real reasons for using a dropshuttle is the efficiency it would be able to work at, rather than requiring the use of small craft/fighters to do the deed in small quantities you have a larger ship more capable of creating larger quantities at a time.

The next step would be to include a combination of hydroponics, food reprocessing, and real quarters for bay personnel.  The combination of these three additions would again increase the range as well as the overall morale of the crew.  A hydroponics bay, properly made, could be a small park-like setting allowing for mental decompression and the ability to actually have fresh fruits and vegetables on occasion would be huge.  The actual mass and space of this system might not save a lot of tonnage during a five-year mission, but I consider the boost in morale to be worth it.

The next addition is going to be a series of significantly high tech and spacious laboratories.  A five-year mission isn't likely to simply be plotting systems, it is likely also going to be canvassing them, and determining the levels of viability for human habitation.  These laboratories would be capable of determining whether the fauna and flora of discovered planets/moons were toxic or beneficial to potential colonizers.

With the above in mind most of the rest of the cargo is going to be devoted to raw materials which could be used in the machine shop I am also adding, to create whatever is needed, more-or-less, on the fly.  I suspect that I could manage to fit about 40kt worth of various minerals and materials, and still have space left over for a material recycling plant.  Basically I'm looking to recycle as much as I can throughout the voyage in whatever way I efficiently can.

As far as actual included craft are concerned, first, I'm not expecting a fight (though I don't want to be complete defenseless.  This means that most of the ASF bays are going to be loaded with ASF.  But in the cargo I'm going to include a significantly sized complement of LAMs - probably somewhere around battalion sized.  In this case I am looking at versatility rather than mission-centric equipment - that's what the machine shop is for, manufacturing the mission specific equipment once we know what's needed.  This also means that I'd be looking at Nighthawks for whoever goes to the surface.  They have environmental sealing and increase the user's strength to deal with unexpected situations, their internal power supplies can also be used for powering equipment for extended lengths of time.  Small craft would again be more generalized, with the K-1 likely being predominant, though an Ares I LRSC or two would be beneficial in some circumstances, it would also be a good idea to have a more heavily cargo focused small craft.  The K-1, with the cargo small craft, could function very well as a small base of operations, allowing for the resources for extended surface missions, having 6+ personnel and necessary equipment, food and maintenance supplies - the ship could fairly easily drop a pair of small craft and then return 3 or 6 months later to see what they've discovered.

I think that covers just about everything, though I'm sure I've missed a couple things.  The big thing I'm looking at is that versatility is the key to both survival and gathering all the information possible.

[Death by Lasers]

  I love this idea!

  I would bring some satellites along, something equivalent to a Skyward.  Deploy them around a planet of interest, leave, and come back at some future date to gather the data.  The six tons of communications equipment onboard the Skyward will also be useful because you won't need to travel all the way back to the planet to pick up its transmissions.

  You might also want a few a science teams on your ship depending on what you are searching for.  Some archeologists may be useful if you find a dead civilization, some anthropologists if you find a living one, some geologists if you are looking for minerals/resource deposits, and some biologists if you are studying a planet for habitability.  For the science teams you are going to want some surveying equipment, vehicles like the Ibex, the Skynews Helicopter, and if you want to study a site very carefully from the air perhaps a Schatten Surveillance Airship.  Exoskeletons could also be helpful but I can't think of any Star League Era industrial Exoskeletons.

  Now to unload these onto planets you are going to have to fit a dropship into your cargo bay.  Now I know in the Age of War this was the standard method but I will honestly have to recheck the rules to see if this can be done with a Star League era Warship.  If it can I would stuff a couple of Manatees in the cargo hold and have them to carry down surveying and research equipment. 

[Dragon Cat]

Tagged I'm going out but may add something later

[Giovanni Blasini]

Bigger gravdecks for crew health, if you don't mind mods?

More crew quarters for bay personnel and explorers?

More crew quarters for bay personnel and exploration staff makes a lot of sense for a long-term explorer, yeah.  A bigger grav deck would certainly help, though I'm not sure how difficult it would be to cram a bigger one or more grav decks into a Vincent.

[Giovanni Blasini]

  I love this idea!

  I would bring some satellites along, something equivalent to a Skyward.  Deploy them around a planet of interest, leave, and come back at some future date to gather the data.  The six tons of communications equipment onboard the Skyward will also be useful because you won't need to travel all the way back to the planet to pick up its transmissions.

Good idea. HPG satellites every now and then would also be handy if you have access to them, and I seem to recall Explorer Corps using a cargo satellite to drop smaller probes into a black hole for long-term study.

  You might also want a few a science teams on your ship depending on what you are searching for.  Some archeologists may be useful if you find a dead civilization, some anthropologists if you find a living one, some geologists if you are looking for minerals/resource deposits, and some biologists if you are studying a planet for habitability.  For the science teams you are going to want some surveying equipment, vehicles like the Ibex, the Skynews Helicopter, and if you want to study a site very carefully from the air perhaps a Schatten Surveillance Airship.  Exoskeletons could also be helpful but I can't think of any Star League Era industrial Exoskeletons.

Ooh, I hadn't even thought of those support vehicles, which would work well for this.

And, yeah, I'd be kitting out science teams for exploration.  In some ways, this is a lot like the old SLS Pioneer under the original SLDF, but writ smaller.

  Now to unload these onto planets you are going to have to fit a dropship into your cargo bay.  Now I know in the Age of War this was the standard method but I will honestly have to recheck the rules to see if this can be done with a Star League era Warship.  If it can I would stuff a couple of Manatees in the cargo hold and have them to carry down surveying and research equipment.

DropShuttle bays.  I did something like that for my conjectural Vincent Mk 1:

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=52608.msg1214538#msg1214538

[Giovanni Blasini]

First thing's first, you've chosen the Vincent which is one of the most modifiable warship designs to have been created, so I am going to take advantage of that fact.

Well, one of the first things I would try to bring - and modify the Vincent to accommodate - would be a dropshuttle (or two) intended to convert water into fuel and transport it from a surface to the warship.  This one modification would both increase the range and the versatility available to the mission.  Rather than bunkerage for 5 years worth of fuel, it could be decreased to 6 months, the resulting increase in available space can be used for other things to increase both the versatility and range of the mission.  One of the real reasons for using a dropshuttle is the efficiency it would be able to work at, rather than requiring the use of small craft/fighters to do the deed in small quantities you have a larger ship more capable of creating larger quantities at a time.

Depending on the size of the comet or asteroid, you could always dock the whole ship too and convert directly, though that risks the whole ship in an accident.

But, yeah, finding some way to electrolysize large amounts of water for hydrogen fuel and to replenish oxygen would be damned handy.

The next step would be to include a combination of hydroponics, food reprocessing, and real quarters for bay personnel.  The combination of these three additions would again increase the range as well as the overall morale of the crew.  A hydroponics bay, properly made, could be a small park-like setting allowing for mental decompression and the ability to actually have fresh fruits and vegetables on occasion would be huge.  The actual mass and space of this system might not save a lot of tonnage during a five-year mission, but I consider the boost in morale to be worth it.

Given their presence on the Invader and Monolith, I've always wondered if hydroponics is considered part of the mass of standard quarters.

The next addition is going to be a series of significantly high tech and spacious laboratories.  A five-year mission isn't likely to simply be plotting systems, it is likely also going to be canvassing them, and determining the levels of viability for human habitation.  These laboratories would be capable of determining whether the fauna and flora of discovered planets/moons were toxic or beneficial to potential colonizers.

With the above in mind most of the rest of the cargo is going to be devoted to raw materials which could be used in the machine shop I am also adding, to create whatever is needed, more-or-less, on the fly.  I suspect that I could manage to fit about 40kt worth of various minerals and materials, and still have space left over for a material recycling plant.  Basically I'm looking to recycle as much as I can throughout the voyage in whatever way I efficiently can.

Factory modules from the small factory maybe?

As far as actual included craft are concerned, first, I'm not expecting a fight (though I don't want to be complete defenseless.  This means that most of the ASF bays are going to be loaded with ASF.  But in the cargo I'm going to include a significantly sized complement of LAMs - probably somewhere around battalion sized.  In this case I am looking at versatility rather than mission-centric equipment - that's what the machine shop is for, manufacturing the mission specific equipment once we know what's needed.  This also means that I'd be looking at Nighthawks for whoever goes to the surface.  They have environmental sealing and increase the user's strength to deal with unexpected situations, their internal power supplies can also be used for powering equipment for extended lengths of time.  Small craft would again be more generalized, with the K-1 likely being predominant, though an Ares I LRSC or two would be beneficial in some circumstances, it would also be a good idea to have a more heavily cargo focused small craft.  The K-1, with the cargo small craft, could function very well as a small base of operations, allowing for the resources for extended surface missions, having 6+ personnel and necessary equipment, food and maintenance supplies - the ship could fairly easily drop a pair of small craft and then return 3 or 6 months later to see what they've discovered.

I think that covers just about everything, though I'm sure I've missed a couple things.  The big thing I'm looking at is that versatility is the key to both survival and gathering all the information possible.

Yeah, Nighthawks have a lot of advantages over even XCT-trained infantry, and can pull double-duty in combat and non-combat roles thanks to armored gloves and extra strength.

Good idea on LAMs in cargo, since you can shuffle ASFs and LAMs in and out of the existing fighter bays depending upon need.

[Weirdo]

LAMs are definitely a good idea. I'd go for K-1 DropShuttles for at least some of your small craft complement. They've got the range to explore locations far from the mother ship, and while aerodynes *can* land vertically without a runway, I'm fairly certain using a spheroid us better if you're going to be doing it on a regular basis. You'll need something with a bigger cargo bay to land vehicles, though.

As for ground units, the Cortez Explorer from TRO VA sounds right up your alley.

[Daryk]

Yes, for vertically landing small craft, it's better to go spheroid (at least for the time being).  Pretty much everything else I'd add has already been said by others, aside from "I love this idea!" O0

[Giovanni Blasini]

LAMs are definitely a good idea. I'd go for K-1 DropShuttles for at least some of your small craft complement. They've got the range to explore locations far from the mother ship, and while aerodynes *can* land vertically without a runway, I'm fairly certain using a spheroid us better if you're going to be doing it on a regular basis. You'll need something with a bigger cargo bay to land vehicles, though.

As for ground units, the Cortez Explorer from TRO VA sounds right up your alley.

The Cortez is awesome, but I can't think of any small craft with the cargo capacity to carry one.  I suppe I could mod one, or mod the Vincent to carry DropShuttles, but I was trying to use as many canon designs as I could.

[Weirdo]

Yeah, that's my thinking as well. Honestly, I think your best bet would be to scale this operation up a bit to the flotilla level. Vincents sound great for the exploration role, but it might be best to have two or three of them acting as the first wave of explorers, each doing the initial survey of a system, and then the lot of them returning to a collar-equipped command ship that can bring DropShips to any locations that call for heavy-duty investigation. Perhaps a Dart?

[Giovanni Blasini]

Yeah, that's my thinking as well. Honestly, I think your best bet would be to scale this operation up a bit to the flotilla level. Vincents sound great for the exploration role, but it might be best to have two or three of them acting as the first wave of explorers, each doing the initial survey of a system, and then the lot of them returning to a collar-equipped command ship that can bring DropShips to any locations that call for heavy-duty investigation. Perhaps a Dart?

For larger states, a Dart would probably be great.  To compare it to Trek, the Dart would be your big exploration cruiser, your Vincents your poor Oberths.

I'm spinning this, though, as a toned-down slightly FGC Niops crammed into something more or less canon starting just before the Jihad, with the canon happenings on Niops during the Jihad inflicted at home.  FGC Niops managed to build up a ridiculous fleet under the rules: a Naga, two Vincents and 3-4 Trackers.  I was planning to reduce that way the heck down, though keeping the Trackers as Oberths to the Vincent's Constutution class could work.

You know, with Explorer Corps winding down by the 3060s, a couple surplus environmentally sealed Prowler exploration vehicles could work, and fit in the cargo hold of a Ares Mk I, if I didn't want to say the A Momentary Lapse of Reason isn't an early Mark of the Vincent that dated to when DropShuttle bays were more common. If I did add a DropShuttle bay, an old Manatee or Black Eagle plus DroST I could handle moving exploration teams to the surface.

[Hellraiser]

I would either go the Drop-shuttle route given the age of an early Vincent (2409) or just change the ship to a Tracker for the 2 Dropships.

Because the Orbit to Ground transport seems to be your biggest issue here.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Yeah, Trackers get the DropShips, but bit smaller on cargo. Besides, Trackers are best used for pirate ships, anyway.

Any early Vincent salvaged and half falling apart would be hilarious. ;D

[worktroll]

Only take one smallcraft capable of landing, with a maximum capacity of a dozen people. Only one, mind you.

Oh, and a cargo platform that isn't designed for the space/atmospheric interface. With the cargo platform open to vacuum.

Why yes, I just did see Alien: Covenant.

Snark aside, have I missed anyone suggesting a portable HPG yet? And minimum two Octopus dropships, just because they're Swiss army tools, specifically designed to do just about anything including planetary landings?

[Vition2]

Snark aside, have I missed anyone suggesting a portable HPG yet? And minimum two Octopus dropships, just because they're Swiss army tools, specifically designed to do just about anything including planetary landings?

In a way, yes.  The Skyward was mentioned by Death by Lasers which has an HPG variant.

As far as utilizing an HPG, I have mixed feelings.  They are very good communications devices, but if you are intending on going on deep space missions (which the idea of this warship's mission suggests), you are either going to quickly leave the ability to communicate behind (the 50 light-year maximum is less than 2 jumps), or will start increasing the price tag of the mission very quickly while making sure you have enough HPG relay satellites to continue to communicate.  A Vincent Mk. 39 has a price tag of around 1.8 billion c-bills, adding an HPG to it more than doubles that, then adding in the relay costs and what was once a ~2 billion c-bill mission turns into a 10+ billion c-bill mission.

Given their presence on the Invader and Monolith, I've always wondered if hydroponics is considered part of the mass of standard quarters.

While I find it perfectly fine and acceptable on civilian ships with very limited maneuverability, I can see it being a huge problem in a warship intended on making quick maneuvers.  My thoughts have always been that larger jumpships frequently have hydroponics, but warships use hyper-efficient recyclers.  I like them specifically for this mission because the warship is not likely to have to utilize such maneuvers much, if at all.

Factory modules from the small factory maybe?

Would probably work.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Only take one smallcraft capable of landing, with a maximum capacity of a dozen people. Only one, mind you.

Oh, and a cargo platform that isn't designed for the space/atmospheric interface. With the cargo platform open to vacuum.

So, Hoshiryokou?

Why yes, I just did see Alien: Covenant.

Hokey, I take it?

Snark aside, have I missed anyone suggesting a portable HPG yet? And minimum two Octopus dropships, just because they're Swiss army tools, specifically designed to do just about anything including planetary landings?

Yeah, but no way to carry one in a Vincent without modifying the ship by adding docking collars. While it's modular, sure, that's something nobody seems to have ever done.

[Cryhavok101]

Don't forget to install a Large NCSS, and probably hyperspectral imagers, one to survey a system faster, and the other to map out a planet faster, and analyze what you can so you can send your ground team to check things of interest.

Quarters for bay personnel are pretty essential for this kind of duration as well, as others have mentioned.

If it wouldn't break your bank, you might mod the ship by adding docking collars. A ship that size can have a maximum of 9 docking collars, and that would extend your potential cargo capacity exponentially. It would also let you send teams simultaneously across a system, with all the supplies they might need. Doing that would be very, very expensive though.

I'd also like to point out that the Hi Scout drone carrier might make a great addition to this expedition, since crews could control rovers from inside it, to explore with less danger to the people. I'm not sure if it is available in the time period though.

[bluedragon7]

What would you consider the important assets for long term exploration with a warship?
I think cargo capacity and Lithium Fusion would be my top priority and sufficient dropships could substitute quite a bit of cargo.
For orbit to surface shuttles should do, though dropships could offer some advantages.
Good quality quarters and grav decks are a must too.

In my view a Vincent only has the cargo capacity for it but lacks almost everywhere else. But maybe there is a mark 27 version that has the ideal modules for long term exploration?

[snewsom2997]

Without Collars or Dropshuttle Bays, you will be severely limited in your exploration ability.

What about the Cruiser Warship. 500k Tons, less thrust, more boom boom, same number of Small shuttles, similar Cargo Capacity, but with 2 Dropshuttle Bays capable of carrying 10k ton vessels. The Vincent is a decent military craft, the Cruiser wasn't, though it is more than capable enough for exploration.

Do you really need a LFB? Your scientists are going to want to spend some time at each planet, more than enough for a sail charge. Do you need a craft that accelerates at 3g max, because you are not going to be outflanking other warships and dropships. The one thing you do want, collars or shuttle bays are something the Vincent lacks.

With the Cruiser, you can have a couple sizable dropships, 10k Tons is rather larger, a couple of modified Overlords. with the Mech Bays torn out, and replaced with Cargo Space, no need to hot drop anything, or secure a landing zone.

You will greatly increase the ability to stay in the field and do science, if you can make fuel and water on the worlds you visit, or can find an icy ball floating around somewhere, don't think you want to dock you warship with the refining equipment to a comet for fuel and water. Instead of using 1/2 you cargo space for fuel and water, you can carry other things, like more food, or the hydroponics bays, satellites or workshops mentioned above, as well as dropping HPG satellite bread crumbs on the route.

Most of the exploration will be done with the Dropships and their assets, not the warship. I would see vehicles and industrial mechs being far more important for exploration. I would see keeping some measure of Drone Command equipment handy as well. Like mention above, something like a high scout, or dedicated space on the Dropships, for small unmanned aircraft and hovercraft, maybe even submarines, if you find an ocean world. I would also think you would want everything Fusion powered, or at the very least Hydrogen Fuel cell powered.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Without Collars or Dropshuttle Bays, you will be severely limited in your exploration ability.

What about the Cruiser Warship. 500k Tons, less thrust, more boom boom, same number of Small shuttles, similar Cargo Capacity, but with 2 Dropshuttle Bays capable of carrying 10k ton vessels. The Vincent is a decent military craft, the Cruiser wasn't, though it is more than capable enough for exploration.

The Cruiser class also carries 48 NAC/10, 24 Barracudas and 6 White Sharks, and was originally meant to lob nukes at people.  While you'd probably be OK during the Star League era, since it's considered long obsolete then, during the Civil War/Jihad era I'm looking at, that's almost 3.5 times the broadside of a Fox class, and in the ballpark of a Kyushu class frigate.

There's issues with the bays, too, but I'll explain that below.  Also, I'd originally planned to use a Vincent because what I'm basing this idea on, the version of Niops from the old FGC'62 game, specifically had two of them they planned to do this with, along with a handful of Trackers for anti-pirate work, and the Naga they were keeping for home defense.

Do you really need a LFB? Your scientists are going to want to spend some time at each planet, more than enough for a sail charge. Do you need a craft that accelerates at 3g max, because you are not going to be outflanking other warships and dropships. The one thing you do want, collars or shuttle bays are something the Vincent lacks.

With the Cruiser, you can have a couple sizable dropships, 10k Tons is rather larger, a couple of modified Overlords. with the Mech Bays torn out, and replaced with Cargo Space, no need to hot drop anything, or secure a landing zone.

You can't actually carry Overlords, sadly.  It was ruled that only DropShuttles

In fact, for the canon ships we know about, you can only carry the following:


Saturn Patrol Ship (2243)
Vulture (2312) (Cargo - 2420, (Standard - 2405)
Manatee (Cargo - 2403), (Standard - 2449)
Black Eagle (2453)

There's also a to-be-released version of the DroST I that will be reduced to 5000 tons and able to be carried in a DropShuttle bay.

Unfortunately, we just don't have any other published ships that qualify as being both old enough to be pre-JumpShip docking collar invention in 2460-2470 range, and also smaller than 5000 tons, which is also required by the DropShuttle Bay rules.  While that severely limits their utility, you are left with a couple 'Mech haulers, a couple vehicle/infantry haulers, a primitive assault ship, and some cargo hauler variants, but they're all older than dirt, just like the Cruiser itself, and they almost all have crappy/extinct availability in the 3060s.  Only the Vulture is still around, and any of those you want to use, you'd need to rip the KF Boom back off the ship, since they've undoubtedly been converted to work with JumpShips since then, which precludes working in DropShuttle Bays.

You will greatly increase the ability to stay in the field and do science, if you can make fuel and water on the worlds you visit, or can find an icy ball floating around somewhere, don't think you want to dock you warship with the refining equipment to a comet for fuel and water. Instead of using 1/2 you cargo space for fuel and water, you can carry other things, like more food, or the hydroponics bays, satellites or workshops mentioned above, as well as dropping HPG satellite bread crumbs on the route.

That is indeed one of the Vincent's limitations, in that we don't have a canon version of the Vincent with any capacity to carry DropShips at all, which is a little frustrating, and makes its adoption for this purpose harder to do.  And, yeah, small craft for refueling will take a huge amount of time to do.

Most of the exploration will be done with the Dropships and their assets, not the warship. I would see vehicles and industrial mechs being far more important for exploration. I would see keeping some measure of Drone Command equipment handy as well. Like mention above, something like a high scout, or dedicated space on the Dropships, for small unmanned aircraft and hovercraft, maybe even submarines, if you find an ocean world. I would also think you would want everything Fusion powered, or at the very least Hydrogen Fuel cell powered.

Yep.  Hydrocarbons would suck to maintain on your ground vehicles.

[Dragon Cat]

Speaking of the DropShuttle I'd love for the to come out with what is essentially a flying brick it's described as pretty much that with even armour, enough thrust to land and break orbit and maybe a defence of medium Lasers all around the side the rest cargo

My reasoning is the current ships look like DropShips and act like the instead you go with something completely oddball something that could never in a million years catch on as a sure thing for the future and that's the original DropShuttle

[Giovanni Blasini]

Speaking of the DropShuttle I'd love for the to come out with what is essentially a flying brick it's described as pretty much that with even armour, enough thrust to land and break orbit and maybe a defence of medium Lasers all around the side the rest cargo

My reasoning is the current ships look like DropShips and act like the instead you go with something completely oddball something that could never in a million years catch on as a sure thing for the future and that's the original DropShuttle

Flying brick for rough landings on unexplored/unsettled worlds, to support colonization? That would be cool.

[Dragon Cat]

Flying brick for rough landings on unexplored/unsettled worlds, to support colonization? That would be cool.

Yeah either it is a one shot that is designed to go from the DropShuttle bay to planet and not be used again (basic colonisation) or a usable version that can regularly go back an forth between planet and orbiter - think a scaled up (by about 10-20000) version of RL ships Simple basic planet to orbit transports not DropShips

[Iron Mongoose]

Lot's of FGC reminisces these days.  If memory serves, you got the Vincents off the FWL, which means they would have been really new builds, still with that new warship smell and industry leading 100,000 light year warranty. It also makes simple changes easy, since you can just specify them on the order sheet.  Of course, they were also built by folks who'd only just learned how to make warships a few years ago and then murdered all their WoB advisors in a bloody, bloody covert war, so that warranty may just be smoke.

That said, I do like the idea.  Sounds both like a lot of fun, and the sort of thing that someone like a really, really wealthy Interstellar Expeditions would do.  Is a Vincent ideal?  Well, it is very available (the nation two jumps over can whip one up in a few months), not ridiculously expensive (I suppose we could also have sold you an updated 2372 Aegis, with four drop collars and 128k tons of cargo for 390 crew, plus respectable armor and a reasonably formidable arsenal, for only about four times the cost, given the mechanics of the game at the time) and there's a sort of sense of "what else do you do with it" since Niops at the time was sandwiched between a naval superpower and a tributary vassal state of another naval superpower.  One possible good alternative ship would be the Wagon Wheel, since it has solid cargo, drop collars, but importantly those stupid enormous grav decks, which would be really useful on a five year mission.  But, it's vastly pricier and (fluff about the grav decks aside) a genuinely useful fighter, so unless your expedition finds some really lucrative treasure, it's probably going to be a Vincent.

I'd definitely invest in a good machine shop.  A really good one. 

After that, it's pretty much all said.  A lot of it just comes down to how you want to explore.  Niops was mainly about astronomical data, so the question is weather you're after just more of the same, and you want to go a thousand light years out with a giant telescope, or weather you already know where you want to go and you just need to go there.  I think the second case is more likely (though I'd still pack a big telescope and some astronomers, since you'll be able to see around some gas clouds and nebula and things and still keep up the old work) so lots of the work will involve going to systems known to have planets, and that means an emphasis on drop shuttles and ground teams, as well as orbital surveys. 

As for protection, sure I'd take along some BA equipped marines for my landing parties (hard to replace red shirts a thousand light years out) and fill my fighter bays with quality fighters, but four NAC10s are more than just a pretty fireworks show (I might take some extra ammo, since it's not too heavy and you'd hate to run into pirates on your way home with low magazines).  It's hard to imagine pirates with enough air power to really pose a threat.

[cray]

The Cruiser class also carries 48 NAC/10, 24 Barracudas and 6 White Sharks, and was originally meant to lob nukes at people.  While you'd probably be OK during the Star League era, since it's considered long obsolete then, during the Civil War/Jihad era I'm looking at, that's almost 3.5 times the broadside of a Fox class, and in the ballpark of a Kyushu class frigate.

Gee, I didn't quite realize it added up to that much firepower. Now I need to look closer at my "fall of the Western Alliance" alternate history idea.

Thread jack!

Hokey, I take it?

I enjoyed Alien:Covenant. It wasn't the movie of the century, but it did everything right that Prometheus got wrong (i.e., it explained stuff instead of leaving you confused.) And it stuck to Aliens' roots as 1) something of a horror story, and 2) an excuse to look at HR Gieger (sp) artwork. I also liked that it retconned Aliens vs Predator films out of existence.

[idea weenie]

Rough equation for break points:

Days = 200/9 * (Quarters Mass - Bays Fixed Mass)
This is the number of days before the selected Quarters are a better deal than a Bay (assuming 1/200 tons per day needed for Quarters and 1/20 needed for a bay).  Assuming the bay Quarters are Zero mass and you are going with 5 ton quarters, that makes it 112 days before Quarters are a better deal, 156 for 2nd Class, and 223 days for 1st Class.  Since this is a five year mission, follow the advice given and and toss everyone in quarters.  Given the duration, you probably ought to toss everyone in 1st Class and 2nd Class, instead of 2nd and Standard.

Just moving in the 32 bay personnel into Standard Quarters means instead of 2922 tons of food, you will be consuming 292.2 tons of food, and using only 160 tons for Quarters, saving you a total of 2469.8 tons.


One thing I'd prefer to do is change as much as possible to using energy based weaponry, and try to make all the energy weapons at most 2 different types.  This eliminates the need for ammo, and reduces the variety of spares  that have to be carried.  Try to make as few different types of items on board.  If using powered armor, make it the same design, but Omni'd.  Aircraft should be fuel cell or fusion, ditto for ground vehicles.  You might even need a tailor to handle torn or worn out uniforms on a long mission.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Gee, I didn't quite realize it added up to that much firepower. Now I need to look closer at my "fall of the Western Alliance" alternate history idea.

Yeah, when you look at the actual weaponry, it's kind of daunting:

Cruiser class: 48 NAC/10, 24 Barracudas, 6 White Sharks, 348 armor points, 75 SI, 210 point broadside firepower.
Aegis (2372) class:  48 NAC/10, 12 White Sharks, 12 NL55, 4 NL45, 586 armor points, 75 SI, 249 point broadside firepower.

So, 2/3 the mass, more or less, same structural rigidity, same thrust, 84.3% the Aegis' firepower, and 60% of its armor.  It's actually pretty comparable to the 2372 Aegis, just makes a few inopportune choices in its configuration.  Sure, by the 28th Century it's clearly obsolete, but the Cruiser class is actually mean for its era.

Thread jack!

I enjoyed Alien:Covenant. It wasn't the movie of the century, but it did everything right that Prometheus got wrong (i.e., it explained stuff instead of leaving you confused.) And it stuck to Aliens' roots as 1) something of a horror story, and 2) an excuse to look at HR Gieger (sp) artwork. I also liked that it retconned Aliens vs Predator films out of existence.

My wife liked the AvP movies, and I'm not sure if she used to read those comics, so she might be peeved by that.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Lot's of FGC reminisces these days.  If memory serves, you got the Vincents off the FWL, which means they would have been really new builds, still with that new warship smell and industry leading 100,000 light year warranty. It also makes simple changes easy, since you can just specify them on the order sheet.  Of course, they were also built by folks who'd only just learned how to make warships a few years ago and then murdered all their WoB advisors in a bloody, bloody covert war, so that warranty may just be smoke.

Yep, bought both the NMS A Momentary Lapse of Reason and the NMS Neko Bijin off the FWL.  Also had the NMS Melusine, a Naga I bought off the Marian Hegemony, as I recall, and four domestically-built Trackers.

That said, I do like the idea.  Sounds both like a lot of fun, and the sort of thing that someone like a really, really wealthy Interstellar Expeditions would do.  Is a Vincent ideal?  Well, it is very available (the nation two jumps over can whip one up in a few months), not ridiculously expensive (I suppose we could also have sold you an updated 2372 Aegis, with four drop collars and 128k tons of cargo for 390 crew, plus respectable armor and a reasonably formidable arsenal, for only about four times the cost, given the mechanics of the game at the time) and there's a sort of sense of "what else do you do with it" since Niops at the time was sandwiched between a naval superpower and a tributary vassal state of another naval superpower.  One possible good alternative ship would be the Wagon Wheel, since it has solid cargo, drop collars, but importantly those stupid enormous grav decks, which would be really useful on a five year mission.  But, it's vastly pricier and (fluff about the grav decks aside) a genuinely useful fighter, so unless your expedition finds some really lucrative treasure, it's probably going to be a Vincent.

I remember you offering to sell me the 2372 Aegis, actually.  I just couldn't afford one due to how much the damn things cost to build.  I think they were the cost of 10 Trackers.

I'd definitely invest in a good machine shop.  A really good one. 

After that, it's pretty much all said.  A lot of it just comes down to how you want to explore.  Niops was mainly about astronomical data, so the question is weather you're after just more of the same, and you want to go a thousand light years out with a giant telescope, or weather you already know where you want to go and you just need to go there.  I think the second case is more likely (though I'd still pack a big telescope and some astronomers, since you'll be able to see around some gas clouds and nebula and things and still keep up the old work) so lots of the work will involve going to systems known to have planets, and that means an emphasis on drop shuttles and ground teams, as well as orbital surveys. 

As for protection, sure I'd take along some BA equipped marines for my landing parties (hard to replace red shirts a thousand light years out) and fill my fighter bays with quality fighters, but four NAC10s are more than just a pretty fireworks show (I might take some extra ammo, since it's not too heavy and you'd hate to run into pirates on your way home with low magazines).  It's hard to imagine pirates with enough air power to really pose a threat.

Part of my idea was Star Trek parody, actually.  Lots of brief planetary visits, with longer follow-up by more dedicated science teams later.  But, yeah, emphasis on astronomy.