So... Experimental TSM Versus the Clans?

[Caedis Animus]

So, this is a thought I had recently. Although the Clans have encountered TSM-ed units before, they would've never encountered a unit mounting experimental TSM, and would likely not know the catalytic counter to TSM-X.

So would Lyran units being retrofitted with TSM-X (If they can mount it) be effective on the border, at least until the Clans discover what's up? I mean, even if the Clans found the gas warheads, they'd likely not be able to do much-100+ years of age will do a number on chemicals like those in Green Smoke warheads, I'd imagine.

[Iron Mongoose]

The Blood of Kerensky books explicitly address this from ComStar's perspective.  If memory serves, the TSM fitting to Yen Lo Wang was believed to be the old stuff, and the Clans were given instructions as to how to use the gas in order to counter it (ComStar being then in league with the Clans).

As for the FedCom, why didn't they even try to test it?  Could be simply a negative association or bias, since it was intended as a weapon to embarrass Max Liao, and Hanse the Fox would be reluctant to use such a thing himself.  It may simply be that, since it was believed unusable against Concord of Kyptan foes, they just never bothered to really gear up to make it, and so they couldn't have refitted more than a hand full of mechs even if they wanted to.  And of course, after a year or two they had regular TSM working, and with ComStar now on their side they'd have been aware that the secret of the old TSM was out (though one would expect the Clans to at least try the gas on mechs fitted with normal TSM a few times.  Possible they just figured they didn't need it, since they were never really endanger on a mech to mech basis).

[Archangel]

Which experimental TSM are you referring to?  There are at least two different kinds.  The one used by House Imarra during the 4SW and the one used in Kai's Mech.  Only the first is affected by the gas while the second requires the 'Mech to run hot for the TSM to fully activate.

Kai's experimental TSM would require properly trained 'MechWarriors to take full advantage of it.  For example, while running hot allowed Kai to take full advantage of the benefits provided by the TSM, running too hot will still cause automatic safeties to kick in and shut the 'Mech down and eventually ammo explosions, etc.

Furthermore it is debatable as to how much of an advantage the TSM would actually give before the Clans adapted.  In the end TSM simply gives a 'Mech a little more strength and speed than it normally would have.  Forming an entire unit around that would likely not be as effective as you might hope.  In the end it is still the unit commanders and their warriors who would ultimately be the deciding factor between victory and defeat.

[Caedis Animus]

The strength-only kind. The original 4th SW version.

This is also something more to ask in the Dark Age era, where a lot of Clan Mechs either have Reflective armor or still aren't melee focused.

[ajcbm]

A minor speed boost isn't going to help getting shot at long range by faster mechs.

[Iron Mongoose]

I don't know.  Speed was one of the Clans' greatest early advantages, thanks to their XL engines.  Wide spread adoption of a technology that would bump up the speeds of FedCom mechs by one level would bring them very close to parity with the Clans.  Most IS heavies and many mediums of the period move 4/6, which TSM would turn into 5/8, the same as basic Clan heavies and some mediums, while IS 5/8 mediums would move to parity with Stormcrows and Adders and Kit Foxes at 6/9. 

Now, it wouldn't do anything about the Clans' enormous range or gunnery advantage.  But, Victor Steiner-Davion was a strong advocate of using confining terrain and close combat against the Clans.  While the Clans' reluctance to engage in physical attacks seems to post date Blood of Kerensky (Star Colonel Malthus was perfectly prepared to engage in a punching match with Kai in the Great Gash), the sorts of close combat fights Victor wanted are a place where enhanced physical prowess would shine, while enhanced speed would enable IS mechs to get into and say in close combat/physical range more effectively.

So I think the premise of the question isn't entirely flawed.  Lots of intelligent people in the Confederation thought that the TSM they stole was a game changer, and there's no reason to think their judgment was flawed, save for the existence of the gas.  Morgan Hasek-Davion and Andy Redburn both noted the Imura mechs were tougher than they would have been, until their armor was breached. Coming from seasoned fighters attacking with the element of surprise, the stiff resistance I think is a testament to the TSM's effectiveness (though an alternate explanation is that they assumed House Imura was just a bunch of parade troops, and they were surprised when the members of the warrior house turned out to be high quality and fanatically motivated mechwarriors).

[Caedis Animus]

A minor speed boost isn't going to help getting shot at long range by faster mechs.

Wrong type of TSM. TSM-X, or TSM Experimental, only boosts melee damage, not speed.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Could have also/probably been some of the same factors that led to Lk missiles not being a silver buller vs the clans.  Even though everyone in the Inner Sphere and Periphery had ECM add-ons that negated the advantages of LK missiles by 3050, those missiles were ultimately of no use even against the Clans oblivious to that technology because they reinvented the countermeasure on their own after encountering the technology.

Same thing probably would have happened the first time they captured a mech with the experimental TSM... and it's one thing to gamble on your LRM ammo ending up useless since you can just load new ammo... and quite another when your entire mech is committed to becoming a crippled wreck when its weakness is exploited....

[Caedis Animus]

Thing is, I'm pretty sure the Fedsuns already knew the weakness of TSM'd up units when the Cappies used it, and had it in the works or in stock.

That said, TSM-X has the benefit-in the Dark Age era-of two things.

- Very, very old. TSM-X would kinda be really low on the list of expected things, even if Comstar told the Clanners about it, and especially if they already knew modern TSM wouldn't be affected by Green Smoke Ammo. (They might waste some time thinking that this TSM-X reintro is just regular TSM).

- Green Smoke ammo that already exists would be hard to come by in usable quantities, most likely. Decay might've destroyed most of the missiles in the hundred plus years since TSM-X came out. That, and it's a bit of a harder workaround to get the counter in the first place, as it's a chemical agent and not an ECM add-on, which, considering it was force-wide in 3050, couldn't have been that hard to do in a second-line mechanic shop.

That said, I did also think about how it's odd that nobody thought that making a redesigned melee-only TSM that didn't catch fire was a bad concept, even in Solaris.

[RunandFindOut]

Or say just adding some built in heating elements to TSM so that you turn it on, it generates 9 heat per turn and keeps the TSM active no matter the overal heat status of the mech.

[Archangel]

Deploying an entire unit of TSM equipped 'Mechs would likely simply speed up the Clans' process of analyzing and then adapting to it.  However, deploying them in company-sized formations to a regiment/RCT would provide the unit commander with an additional ace in his/her backpocket likely with a focus on CQC situations.

[massey]

I don't think they had time.  The Clans hit without warning, and the Inner Sphere had to scrape together whatever units they could to try and drive them off.  They didn't have the resources or the time to put together specialist units of mechs that made use of what would then be considered a fatally flawed technology.

In hindsight, we can say "oh yeah, that should totally have worked, they should have tried that".  But at the time, it makes perfect sense that no one would have thought about it.  And you're talking about replacing all the myomers in the mech, so you'd be spending a lot of time refitting each one that was to go into service on the Clan border.

[Caedis Animus]

I don't think they had time.  The Clans hit without warning, and the Inner Sphere had to scrape together whatever units they could to try and drive them off.  They didn't have the resources or the time to put together specialist units of mechs that made use of what would then be considered a fatally flawed technology.

In hindsight, we can say "oh yeah, that should totally have worked, they should have tried that".  But at the time, it makes perfect sense that no one would have thought about it.  And you're talking about replacing all the myomers in the mech, so you'd be spending a lot of time refitting each one that was to go into service on the Clan border.

I'm talking about during the Dark Age, not another era.

But Logistics being an issue would make sense. Maybe just every 12th mech, or every Berserker or something?

[SCC]

Or say just adding some built in heating elements to TSM so that you turn it on, it generates 9 heat per turn and keeps the TSM active no matter the overal heat status of the mech.

Hopefully there's a good reason that on-one has does this in canon yet

[ErikModi]

Hopefully there's a good reason that on-one has does this in canon yet

Since heating the myomer will still heat the 'Mech, it being an airtight shell and all?

As for the Clans, they're well aware of TSM-X.  Was just rereading the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, and what happened was Focht brought up the TSM-X with Myndo, who started reminding him of all the pitfalls of which he was well aware, Focht went on to explain how it could still be a nasty surprise for the Clans, at which point Myndo ordered him to tell the Clans about the gas and instruct them in its use, to which Focht replied he'd already done that, but this was all beside the point, since he was trying to impress upon her that ComStar has no idea what the research status is on a FedCom project that's twenty years old, who knows what they've got in the works now and what threats that might pose to Myndo's grand vision for the Clans, ComStar, and the InnerSphere.

Kai's 'Mech mounted the "perfected" TSM, the one that requires running at 9 heat for best results.  Kai complained that this would "cook his targeting circuits a little," so yes, 'Mechs with TSM need MechWarriors trained in how to get the most out of it and compensate for the downsides.

As for why the FedCom didn't think to equip a bunch of 'Mechs with TSM-X during the Invasion:  well, they were running as fast as they could just to stay in the same place.  The Clans were gobbling up worlds faster than the FedCom could reinforce them, and refitting 'Mechs with a twenty-year-old technology that might provide an edge against only that enemy wouldn't be appealing when the same resources could be applied to repairing damaged 'Mechs or outfitting whole new units or retrofitting old ones with other, more useful recovered/developed technologies.  Plus, since Yen-lo-wang got the "refined" TSM in 3051, it means TSM was almost or actually ready for deployment when the Clans invaded, no need to use the old, bad stuff when we've got the new, good stuff.

[massey]

I'm talking about during the Dark Age, not another era.

But Logistics being an issue would make sense. Maybe just every 12th mech, or every Berserker or something?

Well, in the Dark Age there's even less reason to use it.  You're gambling that you can use a 100+ year old trick and nobody is gonna notice.  Unfortunately it takes more prep time and more resources to initiate the trick than it does to counter it.

[Archangel]

Not to mention TSM is absolutely no help against the Falcons' current response to defiance -- orbital bombardment.

[Caedis Animus]

I thought they just used that Warship to secure a landing zone? Either way, space fights don't matter. This is just about stompy robots, as jumpships can't use TSM.

[glitterboy2098]

Since heating the myomer will still heat the 'Mech, it being an airtight shell and all?

As for the Clans, they're well aware of TSM-X.  Was just rereading the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, and what happened was Focht brought up the TSM-X with Myndo, who started reminding him of all the pitfalls of which he was well aware, Focht went on to explain how it could still be a nasty surprise for the Clans, at which point Myndo ordered him to tell the Clans about the gas and instruct them in its use, to which Focht replied he'd already done that, but this was all beside the point, since he was trying to impress upon her that ComStar has no idea what the research status is on a FedCom project that's twenty years old, who knows what they've got in the works now and what threats that might pose to Myndo's grand vision for the Clans, ComStar, and the InnerSphere.

Kai's 'Mech mounted the "perfected" TSM, the one that requires running at 9 heat for best results.  Kai complained that this would "cook his targeting circuits a little," so yes, 'Mechs with TSM need MechWarriors trained in how to get the most out of it and compensate for the downsides.

As for why the FedCom didn't think to equip a bunch of 'Mechs with TSM-X during the Invasion:  well, they were running as fast as they could just to stay in the same place.  The Clans were gobbling up worlds faster than the FedCom could reinforce them, and refitting 'Mechs with a twenty-year-old technology that might provide an edge against only that enemy wouldn't be appealing when the same resources could be applied to repairing damaged 'Mechs or outfitting whole new units or retrofitting old ones with other, more useful recovered/developed technologies.  Plus, since Yen-lo-wang got the "refined" TSM in 3051, it means TSM was almost or actually ready for deployment when the Clans invaded, no need to use the old, bad stuff when we've got the new, good stuff.

it was also mentioned in that exchange that the CapCon had continued to equip "recon 'mechs like the Locust and Raven" with TSM-X despite the weakness to the gas. (presumably to give them higher ground speeds)
Focht points out that the FedCom could have duplicated the CapCon's practice, and tried to fight on airless worlds or ones with high winds.
(Focht also points out the TSM had not been released for use in industrialmechs.. which has since been contradicted by the 3040 intro date for industrial TSM.. though Focht does say their info on the FedCom is poor, and it is possible that it was still very rare at the time.)

personally i have often found the reference to TSM-X equipped Ravens and Locusts in CapCon service interesting.. this is literally the only reference we have to it, but it really gets across how desperate the CapCon had to be at the time.. to use a boobytrapped technology that their biggest enemy can easily negate if they have any forewarning.

[Caedis Animus]

Well, I can't think of a reason to keep mounting TSM-X on Ravens and whatnot. It doesn't boost speed, just melee damage.

Actually, you'd think they'd start putting it on all those handheld weapon IS Mechs that popped up near the Jihad.

[glitterboy2098]

i suspect that since there was no actual stats for the prototype TSM at the time, it was assumed it would offer similar advantages as the 'improved model' introduced in the book, only all the time.

when TSm is talked up in the warrior trilogy, there is mention of mechs needing to spend less mass on engine to get the same speed, for example. so evidently the original idea by Stackpole was "TSM makes a mech stronger and faster", even in the experimental form.

[SCC]

glitterboy2098, that sounds more like it being active all the time, which makes the technology a lot more viable.

[Caedis Animus]

That's why TSM-X is pretty potent. You don't get the enhanced speed, but you get permanent double melee damage.

[grimlock1]

i suspect that since there was no actual stats for the prototype TSM at the time, it was assumed it would offer similar advantages as the 'improved model' introduced in the book, only all the time.

when TSm is talked up in the warrior trilogy, there is mention of mechs needing to spend less mass on engine to get the same speed, for example. so evidently the original idea by Stackpole was "TSM makes a mech stronger and faster", even in the experimental form.

The Battlepack 4th Succession Wars published in '98 does have rules for the prototype TSM.  It's the same basically the same as regular TSM, with the requisite +9 heat, +1 MP and 2x melee damage.  A brief side note; Firestarters DO NOT hold up well against kicks from TSM boosted Cataphracts.  Don't ask me how I know this.  The Special Case rules for that mission assumed the entire field was filled with Green Smoke, and Capellan mechs took internal structure damage and made regular critical checks each turn after a section of armor was breached. I don't remember how much damage per turn was involved.

Or say just adding some built in heating elements to TSM so that you turn it on, it generates 9 heat per turn and keeps the TSM active no matter the overal heat status of the mech.

The easiest way to do that is just have the right assortment of lasers and make a cheat sheet. Ti Ts'ang and No-Dachi 2KO are a pair of good examples.

[Hellraiser]

The rules & the fluff don't really match up well.

We have contradicting information.

For example, as noted, the 4th SW pack talks about 9 heat being needed.

But the actual novels don't mention needing added heat & the refined TSM specifically mentions that the new stuff only works in a narrow heat band.

I'm also not sure where the Speed v/s Physical Damage debate is coming from.

It was always fluffed as being able to do the same thing, IE, Speed & Damage from being Stronger Muscles, but only working in a narrow heat band.

Basically same effects in game, just one uses Heat while the other doesn't but is in turn vulnerable to the green gas.
At least I'm pretty sure that was the intent of the fluff anyway.