Author Topic: Questions about Rules  (Read 306 times)

MathNerd

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Questions about Rules
« on: 17 July 2017, 11:08:57 »
I have bought some Mechwarriors miniatures on eBay (which, by the way, are very cheap per figurine when bought in bulk). However, I don't know any experienced players, and I have some questions about the rules.

On the top of Page 22 of Mechwarrior: Age of Destruction, it says...

Also during your clean-up stage, any 'Mech you control that began and ended the turn occupying
shallow water terrain loses 1 heat; if it occupied deep water terrain, it loses 2 heat instead.



Now consider a 'Mech that started in deep water, and moved to shallow water. Or perhaps a 'Mech that started in shallow water, and moved to deep water. A close reading of this rule might imply that no heat is lost, because it is not the case that it started or ended in shallow water, and it is not the case that it started and ended in deep water.

In other words, is it the case that:
1. if you start and end in shallow water, then you lose 1 heat.
2. if you start and end in deep water, then you lose 2 heat.
3. if you start in one depth and move to the other depth, then you lose 0 heat?

I would prefer to read it as follows:
1. if you start and end in shallow water, then you lose 1 heat.
2. if you start and end in deep water, then you lose 2 heat.
3. if you start in one depth and move to the other depth, then you lose 2 heat, because you occupied deep water at some point during the turn.

Perhaps I am reading the rules too closely...
---Greg
« Last Edit: 17 July 2017, 18:59:20 by MathNerd »

cavingjan

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #1 on: 17 July 2017, 14:01:26 »
That is one of the reasons why deep water was dropped from organized play early in MW:DA's life. I think this was clarified to mean that you only lose only a single heat but a strict reading of the rule is 0 heat.

MathNerd

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #2 on: 17 July 2017, 17:56:53 »
cavingjan:
That is one of the reasons why deep water was dropped from organized play early in MW:DA's life. I think this was clarified to mean that you only lose only a single heat but a strict reading of the rule is 0 heat.



I didn't realize that deep water was dropped from organized play.

However, if one is using deep water terrain, I guess the literal interpretation of the rules is that a 'Mech that starts at one depth of water, and moves to the other depth, that 'Mech loses 0 heat.

It is hard for me to grasp what the science argument (err... science fiction argument) is behind that. Hrmmm...

Perhaps the act of moving from one depth to another depth is so awkward and challenging for the 'Mech, that it generates +1 heat, and that cancels out the -1 heat from being inside the water?! I could swallow that. After all, just running (multiple times) can generate lethal heat.
---Greg

MathNerd

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #3 on: 17 July 2017, 19:06:26 »
Toward the bottom of Page 29 of Mechwarrior: Age of Destruction, it says...

If three, four, or five of your infantry and/or vehicles are grouped so that each one is touching the base of at least one other, then you may designate them a movement formation.

Another quote, little bit later...

At the end of the order, each member must be in base contact with at least one other member---the formation cannot be split into two or more groups at the end of the order.


Now suppose one has four infantry and/or vehicles arranged in a pair of pairs. (So, two in base contact with each other, a gap, and then two in base contact with each other.)

It seems that the first quotation would indicate that it is okay for them to form a movement formation of four units, because each one is touching the base of at least one other. Of course, the second quotation would require them to form one group at the end of the order (e.g. forming a line of four abreast).

Is this allowed? Or does the movement formation have to start as a contiguous group?

The main situation where this might occur is a line of five abreast, where the middle unit gets eliminated, leaving behind a pair of pairs.

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #4 on: 17 July 2017, 20:21:00 »
The spirit of the rule is definitely that there needs to be a contiguous chain of units - so the pair-gap-pair situation can't be declared a movement unit, and destroying the middle of a 'chain' would result in the loss of movement group status.

Trust me - providing simple, clear, and totally-comprehensive-and-unambiguous-covering-all-edge-conditions-that-people-might-think-of-in-every-case, is not simple. Common sense is as important on the table as dice.

IMHO, anyway ;)

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MathNerd

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #5 on: 18 July 2017, 15:21:59 »
I have a follow-up question:
If a 'Mech moves from one shallow water terrain feature to another shallow water terrain feature, it has (technically speaking) achieved the requirements. It started and ended the turn in shallow water, and should shed a point of heat.

Yet, I think if it leaves one shallow water terrain feature, and moves fairly far to get to another shallow water terrain feature, then it should not receive the same magnitude of heat loss as a 'Mech that spend the entire turn in shallow water.

In fact, it is conceivable that a player could place two shallow water terrain features, perhaps about 1/3 of the way and 2/3 of the way from one deployment zone to the other. This "leapfrogging" could be very significant.

Perhaps it should be the case that the 'Mech should stay in shallow water for the entire movement order to achieve the point of heat loss?
---Greg

cavingjan

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #6 on: 18 July 2017, 16:03:13 »
It did not matter what was in between; only your starting point and ending point.

Also note that you cannot place two terrain piece adjacent to each other. Deep water directly to shallow water cannot happen.

MathNerd

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #7 on: 12 August 2017, 12:24:38 »
Quote
Also note that you cannot place two terrain piece adjacent to each other. Deep water directly to shallow water cannot happen.

Ah, yes. Thank you for this important correction. Indeed, the rules clearly state that there should be 3'' between any two pieces of terrain (very top of Page 13). The situation I was envisioning was based on the late 1980s BattleTech hex maps, where you might have a large lake, and the outer hexes might be Depth 1 water, and the inner hexes might be Depth 2+ water. However, the two terrain features (shallow water and deep water) can never be adjacent in MW:AoD. Got it.

Quote
That is one of the reasons why deep water was dropped from organized play early in MW:DA's life. I think this was clarified to mean that you only lose only a single heat but a strict reading of the rule is 0 heat.

Yes, it seems that the deep-water terrain can cause very serious problems. I guess the smart move is to disallow deep water.
---Greg

MathNerd

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #8 on: 12 August 2017, 12:33:49 »
I am confused about restart rolls and the colors on the heat knob. I apologize if this is
an extremely basic question. I don't think that the specific 'Mech matters, but I am using
Dagger Di Jones (Hatchetman), which is D131. http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=D131

  • Let's say that on turn 5, because I have gained too much heat, I find myself completely
    shutdown. The heat knob shows three radiation symbols.
  • Turn 6 is my opponent's turn.
  • Next, on turn 7, I am busy giving orders to other units, so the 'Mech doesn't get an order.
    Accordingly, the heat drops by 1 point during the clean-up phase. Now the heat knob
    shows a white -1 for the melee damage penalty, a red -2 for the ballistic damage penalty
    (avoid ammo explosion: critical), and a yellow -1 for the speed penalty (avoid shutdown).
    I resolve the ammo explosion roll, and let's assume the 'Mech survives that. Then I roll a
    d6 to restart, and my 'Mech restarts on a 3--6, but it remains shutdown on a 1--2. Suppose
    that I roll a 1 or 2. My 'Mech remains shut down.
  • Turn 8 is my opponent's turn.
  • Now on turn 9, I might vent or I might not. If I vent, then all three positions on the heat knob
    are showing white. If I do not vent, then I have a yellow color on the ballistic damage penalty
    (avoid ammo explosion), but no other colors. Either way, I don't know what my restart roll
    should be. What should my restart roll be?

Reading the SEC and the rules, if I have a green color showing on the speed-penalty slot of
the heat knob, then I automatically restart; if I have a yellow color showing on the speed-penalty
slot of the heat knob, then I restart on a roll of 3--6; if I have a red color showing on the
speed-penalty slot of the heat knob, then I restart on a roll of 4--6. What do I need to roll for
restart if the heat knob is white?

I guess saying 2--6 = restart, and 1 = don't restart for white would make a smooth transition and
result in a clear probability model, but the rules say nothing about that. In other words, red=4-6,
yellow=3-6, white=2-6, and green=1-6.

I hope I am not forbidden from making restart rolls during the turns when the speed-penalty
slot of the heat knob is showing white. If that's the case, then the 'Mech will only restart when
the heat knob is showing all greens. If I don't use any Vent orders, that will happen in turn 15,
which means my poor 'Mech has been shutdown for 10 turns! (Namely turns 6--15)

Again, sorry if this question is too basic, but I am very, very confused.
---Greg

Northkin

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #9 on: 12 August 2017, 16:52:55 »
This is one of the bugaboos I have with the clicky game, but there is no restart roll on a white speed square.
"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." - Captain Montgomery Scott, Star Trek III

DarkSpade

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #10 on: 12 August 2017, 17:32:07 »
It's been awhile, but if I remember correctly, you don't roll for heat affects when shut down except for shut down rolls which actually become restart rolls instead.
Space Marines are guys who look at a chainsaw and think, “That should be balanced for parrying.”

MathNerd

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #11 on: 12 August 2017, 21:15:11 »
Quote
It's been awhile, but if I remember correctly, you don't roll for heat affects when shut down except for shut down rolls which actually become restart rolls instead.

DarkSpade, you're absolutely right. I just noticed on the SEC, it says "If this unit is not shutdown..." at the start of the description for six heat effects. (Though, it would have been nice if this were mentioned in the rules and not just on the SEC.)

However...

Quote
This is one of the bugaboos I have with the clicky game, but there is no restart roll on a white speed square.

This is extremely strange. For example, when the heat knob is at the "automatic shutdown level" (with three radiation symbols) it would actually be better for me to decline to vent, because if I lose two heat, I miss all my possible restart rolls; in comparison, if I lose 1 heat, then I get a restart roll. Is this really true?
---Greg

DarkSpade

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #12 on: 13 August 2017, 01:10:10 »

This is extremely strange. For example, when the heat knob is at the "automatic shutdown level" (with three radiation symbols) it would actually be better for me to decline to vent, because if I lose two heat, I miss all my possible restart rolls; in comparison, if I lose 1 heat, then I get a restart roll. Is this really true?
---Greg

Yup.  There are some mechs where you're better off not wasting an order that round(sometimes for 2 rounds).  Keep in mind that most fully shut down mechs will require 2 vent orders and one turn of natural cooling to get all the way back to green anyway.
Space Marines are guys who look at a chainsaw and think, “That should be balanced for parrying.”

Northkin

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Re: Questions about Rules
« Reply #13 on: 25 August 2017, 18:56:58 »
Here's another goofy thing from the clicky game:

Vehicles with speed mode VTOL have two flight levels: cruising and NOE (nape-of-earth).  To change between levels costs 2 speed points.  This means that a VTOL unit at cruising level with a speed value less than 2 cannot descend and is stuck at the higher altitude.
"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." - Captain Montgomery Scott, Star Trek III

 

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