Author Topic: Wolverines? Where are they now?  (Read 22425 times)

Maingunnery

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #90 on: 24 August 2017, 14:20:44 »
And normally I'd agree. But there is also a canonical reference to the Societys propaganda. They have also been known to change their minds before. But most importantly, TPTB are still obfuscating on the "true" history and story and the WoR entry gives them an out as to where and how BoI is canonical.
The Warriors thought it was propaganda, but it was just the honest truth.  ;)
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DarkSpade

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #91 on: 24 August 2017, 16:15:36 »
There are two editions of the novel, the earlier BattleCorps serial and the print edition. The former has additional appendices while the latter has an additional prologue and epilogue. Both editions are fully canonical. There is an explicit ruling that as far as BattleTech canon is concerned, an omission does not equal a de-canonisation so the fact that all the epilogue scenes were published in the BattleCorps edition is enough for them to be canon, even when they weren't reproduced in print.

On one hand, I'm upset that I didn't get the full book.  On the other hand, I didn't really enjoy the book that much anyway so i guess there's no lose?
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #92 on: 24 August 2017, 16:28:44 »
Not convinced.
When the Wolverines bit the dust, they were second- or at most, third-generation Clanners; not to mention the civilian castes who would have outnumbered the warriors by orders of magnitude and may have included people who personally had been on the Exodus. I don't know when the eugenics program really took off, but for all we know the Clan concept was only introduced in 2807 - and I highly doubt vat breeding was already a working process by then. Which is to say, genetically engineered (or even "trueborn") people couldn't be more than between 14 and 17 years old, and there may not have been any at all yet.

That's okay.  We can discount whether the eugenics program had taken off by the Wolverine Annihilation and left long-term artifacts (improved mitochondria, absence of common genetic diseases, etc.) in warrior DNA.

Quote
The Clans simply wouldn't know what to look for, unless you want to assume the complete genome of every last Wolverine citizen had been saved in some database.

The Clans don't need the complete DNA sequences of every Wolverine citizen.  They just need the DNA sequences of some Wolverine warriors before the Wolverines' annihilation. 

Unless every record was lost during the Wolverine annihilation, the Clans likely had the DNA sequences of Clan Wolverine's (and every other Clan's) 40 or so founding warriors.  And given the eugenics direction that Nick Kerensky was headed in, the Clans probably had the DNA sequence of every Wolverine warrior right up until the Wolverine annihilation.

Even if no Wolverine warriors survived to take part in the Wolverine exodus (which we know not to be true), it is unlikely that none of their relatives or descendants did.  Their society was still transitioning from SLDF army to Clan.  Wolverine warriors would have had both extended and nuclear families with whom they shared DNA sequences that could be traced back to those warriors.  We could do that tracing over a half-dozen generations just using real-world technology today.

I think the only way you get a Wolverine-descended population in the Inner Sphere that cannot be traced back to the Wolverines genetically is if you assume that no Wolverine warriors and absolutely none of their children, siblings, nephews/nieces, and cousins were able to survive the Wolverine exodus.  That strains credulity for me.  It's like saying that a nuclear "Third World War" not only kills every US serviceman, but every member of those servicemen's extended and nuclear families.  Certainly possible, but statistically unlikely.

Regardless, the Clans (or at least the Ghost Bears) have some Wolverine genetic signature that they're looking for among Blakie populations in the latter stages of the Jihad.  It must be valid and testable.  Otherwise, we have to assume that the Clans' genetic scientists are raving idiots.

Given that the Clans (or Bears) didn't find any Wolverine genetic markers among the Blakies and given that it's unlikely that every Wolverine warrior's extended and nuclear family member died in the Wolverine exodus, it would appear that Parradeu's journal was falsified somewhere along the line and that the Blakist cabal has little or nothing to do with the Wolverines.   

(Unfortunately, in my storytelling aesthetic judgment, but that's another thread...)
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Frabby

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #93 on: 24 August 2017, 16:29:17 »
Summaries of the combined full content can be found on Sarna: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Betrayal_of_Ideals#Epilogues_.28BattleCorps_PDF_edition_only.29
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #94 on: 25 August 2017, 00:26:19 »
Thank you for those updates!

Robroy

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #95 on: 25 August 2017, 03:49:30 »
Summaries of the combined full content can be found on Sarna: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Betrayal_of_Ideals#Epilogues_.28BattleCorps_PDF_edition_only.29

Strange. The print edition I have has both epilogue.

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Frabby

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #96 on: 25 August 2017, 07:03:03 »
Strange. The print edition I have has both epilogue.
The BC edition had a number of epilogue scenes (Trish Ebon reuniting two scout flottillas plus the straggler cadets, the Snow Raven khans supervising the reconstruction of Dhera Dun and Joyce Merrel's exchange with Nicholas where he argues that "it's not a lie if we all believe it", and the mass killing of two generations of Ghost Bear warrior cadets), plus author's notes called "Flotsam".
The print edition I have has none of these, and instead has the new 3041 epilogue with Explorer Corps Precentor Barton Bixby.
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Mendrugo

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #97 on: 26 August 2017, 05:33:21 »
Another two-bits to toss in for the Ebon Magistrate - Wolverine linkage.

I was going through the old "Iron Writer" stories recently and came across "Darkness," by Randall Bills.  In it, an Ebon Magistrate agent has a covert meeting on an unnamed Deep Periphery world with a mysterious contact who gives her a data cube brimming with advanced tech.  Date unknown, location unknown, contact identity unknown.  The contact ends the meeting with the phrase "Bargained well." 

Mysterious source of tech from "beyond the periphery" - check
Ebon Magistrate set up as the conduit for this tech-for-intel swap - check
Contact using Clan-esque phrasing - check

Certainly seems like Randall's intent was to add another tidbit tying the Magistracy to the Minnesota Tribe.  Granted, the Iron Writer stories were all explicitly non-canon (due to having been written at GenCon without the benefit of a run past the fact-checking crew), but if there was anyone in 2007 who didn't need fact checkers to accurately slot something like this into the universe, it was Randall. 
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StoryReader

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #98 on: 16 September 2017, 23:09:54 »
The BC edition had a number of epilogue scenes (Trish Ebon reuniting two scout flottillas plus the straggler cadets, the Snow Raven khans supervising the reconstruction of Dhera Dun and Joyce Merrel's exchange with Nicholas where he argues that "it's not a lie if we all believe it", and the mass killing of two generations of Ghost Bear warrior cadets), plus author's notes called "Flotsam".
The print edition I have has none of these, and instead has the new 3041 epilogue with Explorer Corps Precentor Barton Bixby.

This is interesting - I think there are two different print versions of Betrayal of Ideals.

My print copy (purchased new on Amazon this summer; has three lines "Made in the USA / San Bernardino, CA / 09 April 2017" on the last page) has the Epilogue start on page 215 with the entirety of the Battlecorps epilogue, and then on page 230 flows into the Comstar 3041 content that wasn't in Battlecorps.  Ends on page 234, and the Author's Notes start on 235.

It sounds like the early print versions (GenCon 2016 ?) didn't have the Battlecorps epilogue content.  I wonder if that was intentional for some reason, or just one of those things?
« Last Edit: 16 September 2017, 23:12:20 by StoryReader »

Frabby

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #99 on: 17 September 2017, 04:15:12 »
Indeed - my hardcopy, which was bought for me at GenCon 2016, only has 224 pages. It's a rather thin booklet.

Can anyone provide a cover photo of the 2nd edition?

Edit: Typo
« Last Edit: 19 September 2017, 00:39:30 by Frabby »
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StoryReader

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #100 on: 17 September 2017, 19:10:44 »
Indeen - my hardcopy, which was bought for me at GenCon 2016, only has 224 pages. It's a rather thin booklet.

Can anyone provide a cover photo of the 2nd edition?

I double checked when I made my order, and it was actually on 9 April.  So the book was printed on the very day I demanded it.

I'm trying to attach what my copy looks like.  If it can't be seen in the picture, it has Catalyst # 36044 on the spine and ISBN 9781520399621 on the back cover.




Stormlion1

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #101 on: 18 September 2017, 19:01:38 »
If nothing else the copy shown confirms the Wolverines Blue, White, and Yellow camo scheme. Not sure how I feel about that.
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Frabby

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #102 on: 19 September 2017, 00:38:07 »
I'm trying to attach what my copy looks like.  If it can't be seen in the picture, it has Catalyst # 36044 on the spine and ISBN 9781520399621 on the back cover.
Confirmed then - the book I hold in my hands looks pretty much similar, but has a thinner spine and the ISBN on my book is 9781942487579. (It's still Catalyst #36044 though.)

Interesting, didn't expect that. I'll go and update the Sarna article.
Thanks for posting the photo!

Edit: Could you kindly tell me how many total pages the thicker print edition has, back-to-back?
« Last Edit: 19 September 2017, 00:46:39 by Frabby »
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mikecj

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #103 on: 19 September 2017, 08:22:08 »
My copy is ISBN 9781520399621
234 pages plus Blaine's afterword

The opening vignette is  and the book ends with the Precentor wondering if anyone is returning to pay their respects.
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StoryReader

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #104 on: 19 September 2017, 20:48:21 »
Confirmed then - the book I hold in my hands looks pretty much similar, but has a thinner spine and the ISBN on my book is 9781942487579. (It's still Catalyst #36044 though.)

Interesting, didn't expect that. I'll go and update the Sarna article.
Thanks for posting the photo!

Edit: Could you kindly tell me how many total pages the thicker print edition has, back-to-back?

Hmm!  I really do wonder what the background to the GenCon edition is?!

At the beginning, the Op Klondike prologue starts on page 5.  At the end Blaine's notes go 235-237.  Some blank pages after that - not numbered, but if they were, the last page (the one that has the "Made in the USA" datestamp on it) would be 244.

Frabby

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #105 on: 20 September 2017, 04:10:58 »
Hmm!  I really do wonder what the background to the GenCon edition is?!
From my understanding, it was a small and rushed print run that was produced and express-delivered to GenCon just in time because for one reason or another the regular-issue print edition wasn't ready in time.
I don't know why the original BattleCorps epilogues were omitted; if I had to venture a guess I'd say it was to cut costs for this (presumably expensive) preproduction run.
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Stormlion1

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #106 on: 20 September 2017, 17:08:29 »
Which means the GenCon editions are true raritys now.
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DarkSpade

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Re: Wolverines? Where are they now?
« Reply #107 on: 20 September 2017, 17:12:53 »
Which means the GenCon editions are true raritys now.

I guess that's one way to look at it, but I keep thinking I may be better off waiting from now on so I know I'm getting the whole book.  :-\
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