Author Topic: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing  (Read 8032 times)

abou

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I realize the title of this thread seems weird. I was thinking about this topic after reading a few articles on what might happen in a decade with the coming advent of the electric vehicle.

For those not familiar, the thought is that the electric car might do to the combustion engine what the digital camera did to film. Once the technology matures enough and the costs come down, there might be a very, very sudden shift. Yes, there have been electric cars in the past and are now, but for a myriad of reasons they haven't proliferated. The biggest reason is the battery.

Yes, electric cars have fewer moving parts. That is a big plus, but even without the fancy on-board computers, you still contend with battery capacity, cycles of recharging, and cost. We are seeing not only dramatic improvements in lithium tech, but also the potential in alkaline batteries. However, we still have a bit of a ways to go, and it is clear that this involves a very complicated interplay of materials, arrangement inside the battery, and high-tech factories that won't cause a fire. But we are getting there soon.

Internal combustion engines, however, will probably still reign supreme in power output for a long time to come. ICE vehicles won't go away just yet -- if ever. But how does this apply to BattleTech? Why overthink this?

As the developers have changed over the years what technology is in our universe, I was wondering why most vehicles in the Inner Sphere wouldn't just be electric (fusion) rather than so many having combustion engines. I mean, if the electric cars have fewer moving parts and we are getting good battery tech now, it would be nice to have a reason for the prevalence of ICE in our universe other than that is what the writers decided 30 years ago.

And I recognize that this might be a bit of a silly exercise -- I mean, who cares, right? But bear with me because I feel this kind of sums up BattleTech and gets to the whole tech disparity thing.

Making batteries involves a lot of technical processes. It involves factories and a knowledge base and access to materials that aren't that easy to come by. It is easy to see how the Succession wars could upend all of that and crush industries. We are where we are now because of improvements over the past century. Microchips are in the same ballpark: if we suddenly lost all the microchip factories, how do you start over?

But the internal combustion engine? All you need is a lathe, die making, casting abilities, and access to decent metals. That is a much lower barrier to entry. And while getting good at those skills involved is not easy, it doesn't involve fragile technology to just get started. Suddenly you can rebuild the world with simple tools. Then just get a generator/alternator and a primitive battery and you are good to go for your electricity.

And that is my little thought exercise about why even with the simple chemistry of the battery, the combustion engine doesn't just disappear in our war-torn universe.

YingJanshi

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #1 on: 04 September 2017, 16:18:13 »
Well for one thing, we've never really gotten a decent look at what the average tech level of the average IS planet is. The early fluff posited that the IS was basically pounded back a thousand years in technology to mid-20th century levels. At least for civilian technologies. But as the game has grown...the background has grown to. And also, the Star League had fusion powered cars. Not everyone could afford one...but I'd put them in the same category of supercars today.

But probably one of the biggest reasons is also why electric cars haven't proliferated much today: lack of infrastructure. It's much easier to build up the infrastructure for ICE engines than it is for electrics. Think of it like how much of the US is today: if you live in a mid-to-large size city, it could be fairly common to see electric cars and trucks out on the streets (maybe even a few ancient fusion ones depending on how the world faired during the Succession Was. But if you live out in the sticks...it's much easier to rely on the range of an ICE. (Plus it's easier to lug around a few gallons of whatever fuel your engine runs on than to haul around a generator to recharge your electric, plus the fuel for the generator.)

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Dragon Cat

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #2 on: 04 September 2017, 16:29:36 »
I'd think fuel cells would be more common a fuel cell would be easier with the number of fusion engines in BT

My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #3 on: 04 September 2017, 17:00:20 »
Welcome ladies and gents to your this week's catgirl massacre thread...

Quote
Making batteries involves a lot of technical processes. It involves factories and a knowledge base and access to materials that aren't that easy to come by. It is easy to see how the Succession wars could upend all of that and crush industries. We are where we are now because of improvements over the past century. Microchips are in the same ballpark: if we suddenly lost all the microchip factories, how do you start over?

But the internal combustion engine? All you need is a lathe, die making, casting abilities, and access to decent metals. That is a much lower barrier to entry. And while getting good at those skills involved is not easy, it doesn't involve fragile technology to just get started. Suddenly you can rebuild the world with simple tools. Then just get a generator/alternator and a primitive battery and you are good to go for your electricity.
Pretty much answered your own question there mate.

Adding my 2 cents : the key tech when it comes to electric cars isn't microchips, its superconductors. Before reintroducing the cost-efficient electric car, you need to rediscover this tech-tree: rare-earth mineral refinery -> superconductor manufacture -> battery and electric engine manufacture. note that FWIW this would be more advanced than what we have in the real world right this very minute.

Efficient ICE tech, on the other hand, is a pretty distant precursor to all that. Heck, REM mining and refinery itself would be extremely difficult without ICE vehicles and mining machinery, though not quite impossible - just really terribly inefficient. Hence no matter what level of development the Succession Wars blasted the Inner Sphere back to, ICE vehicles would always have come first before electric cars.

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #4 on: 04 September 2017, 17:14:35 »

But the internal combustion engine? All you need is a lathe, die making, casting abilities, and access to decent metals. That is a much lower barrier to entry. And while getting good at those skills involved is not easy, it doesn't involve fragile technology to just get started. Suddenly you can rebuild the world with simple tools.

Not meaning to buster your bubble, but the refinements in chemistry to make Bessamer steel are no mean task.  Including the arc refining electrodes makes the hold idea that batteries are less tech intensive is not really true.  Then add the petrochemical base fuels refining.  It might be better to say that we had some large vested interest, monopolized corporations,  that had the resources and interest to make ICE take off.  There have been so many generations of ICE compared to batteries to make most comparisons between pointless.

So I would think that it's more a historical artifact than simpler that ICE is the perdomiment tech.

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #5 on: 05 September 2017, 03:43:08 »
I'd think fuel cells would be more common a fuel cell would be easier with the number of fusion engines in BT
Not really.

ICE and fuel cells require large networks of filling stations to provide them with fuel. Given that the average planet in BT has about the same population as the US, which means distances between such stations would resemble more like something you'd find the Australian outback or Alaska, so not really practical. So that leaves steam (refueling consists of grabbing an axe and chopping some trees), Battery vehicles with solar recharge option (You might have to camp for a few days while the batteries recharge) or fusion.

You might see ICE or FC in well developed regions/planets, but I don't think it's too likely.

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #6 on: 05 September 2017, 16:56:14 »
note that ICE engines in BT are mostly diesels, which can run on practically anything. including stuff made from agricultural byproducts. (the original intent for diesels was that farmers could fuel their equipment off the parts of their crops they'd normally throw away)

and we have official mention that at least the Combine uses biofuels heavily (in Close Quarters and Black Dragon we are told multiple times the Combine uses ethonol based fuels as standard. the distinct smell their exhaust makes is a common descriptive text.)

i would not be surprised if the IS as a whole doesn't use primarily biofuels, given that oils made from grains/vegetables, acohol based fuels, and methane based fuels would all be common even on less industrial worlds. the only worlds that don't have enough agriculture to support such things tend to be those exotic atmosphere places where you pretty much have to use fusion power all the time anyway.

Caedis Animus

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #7 on: 06 September 2017, 01:21:21 »
Hey, I mean... Catgirl blood is the easiest thing in the universe to come by for fuel. After all, what else are you supposed to do with the Catgirls?

Eat them?

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« Last Edit: 06 September 2017, 01:26:50 by Caedis Animus »

Liam's Ghost

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #8 on: 06 September 2017, 01:28:52 »
note that ICE engines in BT are mostly diesels,

Source?
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haesslich

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #9 on: 06 September 2017, 08:48:38 »
After all, what else are you supposed to do with the Catgirls?

They keep the mech bay and mechs clean, among other things.

I'm not sure which infrastructure is easier to maintain on most worlds that aren't capitals of major powers - ICE types (which need the ability to make cast steel, and refine fuels in some quantity) or electric (which in theory is simpler but requires better energy storage than most worlds that aren't using a lot of lasers or fusion reactors might have).
« Last Edit: 07 September 2017, 21:24:38 by haesslich »

Kovax

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #10 on: 06 September 2017, 08:53:44 »
It seems like ICE/Electric hybrids would be a thing.  Electric cars have a number of advantages, but running any distance on battery power alone means lots of heavy and expensive batteries, with eventual replacement costs that aren't all that attractive in the long run.

By running a small ICE engine tuned for a specific RPM range, and using that to generate electricity, an ICE/Electric hybrid car can work with very modest sized banks of batteries.  The small engine can burn practically any flammable liquid with relatively high efficiency because of its tuning for that fixed RPM rate, and replace power to the batteries at a gradual rate.  It doesn't need any "reserve" power from the engine for acceleration and deceleration, because the electric motors do all of that from the stored power as need.  If you get into an energy-intensive situation where you're drawing more power over an extended period of time than the little engine can replenish (like driving up the winding roads to the top of a mountain range), you may need to stop briefly to allow the engine to recharge the batteries a bit.  Military equipment would tend to have a slightly higher rated engine to allow continuous operation under duress, at the expense of some added weight and slightly less overall efficiency.

Bio-fuels?  Great.  Fossil fuels"  Great.  Nasty methane environment?  Change out the little combustion engine module for one that burns methane on any vehicles destined for that planet and you're still good to go.  If necessary, you could fit a small boiler and steam engine to burn wood, coal, or other combustible solids, although with a more limited recharge rate.  If the situation allows, you can even drop in a fusion module to eliminate the fuel costs in the short term.  If you're in an urban environment or at proper facilities, you can top off the batteries from an external fusion source and save a bit on fuel, but the charge is only going to be good for a few miles, because that's about all the batteries need to be able to hold.

Fuel supply versatility is there, power on demand is there, long range is there, and decent efficiency is there as well.  Win-win situation.

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #11 on: 06 September 2017, 19:19:59 »
Kovax, that's not going to deal with the fundmental problem of no gas stations for the next 1,000km. Imagine if the only state with any real development between Florida and California was Texas. There's small, isolated, settlements, but nothing above a couple of hundred people. And even those places are few and far between.

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #12 on: 06 September 2017, 19:43:52 »
Note that today's electric cars rely very heavily on extremely high-tech batteries, and assume a national high supply electricity grid.  Fuel cells also depend on high purity, complex manufacturing catalysts, and availability of pure water supplies. So they only make sense where there's an existing, high-tech infrastructure.

(Thought exercise. Imagine being the Ferrarri dealer in Romania.)

Go to New Avalon, and your Tesla IIC limo makes perfect sense. In most other cases, a diesel burning old chip oil in O0.
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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #13 on: 06 September 2017, 19:44:40 »
ICE and fuel cells require large networks of filling stations to provide them with fuel. Given that the average planet in BT has about the same population as the US, which means distances between such stations would resemble more like something you'd find the Australian outback or Alaska, so not really practical.
True, but people don't regularly travel from Perth to Sydney in cars, or commute from Canberra to Melbourne every day. Like Australia, BT worlds are probably highly centralised around 1-2 major cities and a few small towns, with the majority of land being uninhabited. So that wouldn't really be a problem for the common user.
Quote
So that leaves steam (refueling consists of grabbing an axe and chopping some trees), Battery vehicles with solar recharge option (You might have to camp for a few days while the batteries recharge) or fusion.
Efficient solar recharge systems greatly increase the technological complexity of electric cars. Now the car has to try and fit in a collection and conversion system in addition to storage, as opposed to just carrying more jerry-cans of fuel. And Blake help you if anything breaks down - you can't quite Macgyver an electric engine the same way you can an ICE.
Quote
You might see ICE or FC in well developed regions/planets, but I don't think it's too likely.
Why not?

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #14 on: 06 September 2017, 20:23:02 »
Because high-efficiency batteries, high-efficiency chargers, and all the other bits & pieces need to be shipped in from another high-tech planet where they're made. And they're expensive, "first world" equipment which (in real world) require complex & highly polluting manufacturing techniques.

So you're waiting for a new controller chip for your Tesla IIC, when Joe-Bob roars past on his ethanol-powered technical ...
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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #15 on: 06 September 2017, 20:29:11 »
Not meaning to buster your bubble, but the refinements in chemistry to make Bessamer steel are no mean task.  Including the arc refining electrodes makes the hold idea that batteries are less tech intensive is not really true.  Then add the petrochemical base fuels refining.  It might be better to say that we had some large vested interest, monopolized corporations,  that had the resources and interest to make ICE take off.  There have been so many generations of ICE compared to batteries to make most comparisons between pointless.

So I would think that it's more a historical artifact than simpler that ICE is the perdomiment tech.

but it is worth noting that you can make Bessemer steel with a 19th century tech base. perhaps not in quite the same volume perhaps, but you can do it.

it requires a higher than 20th century techbase to make superconductors and high density energy storage systems.. given that we still can't do it today (and we've had bessemer steel for 150 years)
« Last Edit: 06 September 2017, 20:30:59 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #16 on: 06 September 2017, 21:44:09 »
It might be better to say that we had some large vested interest, monopolized corporations,  that had the resources and interest to make ICE take off.  There have been so many generations of ICE compared to batteries to make most comparisons between pointless.

So I would think that it's more a historical artifact than simpler that ICE is the perdomiment tech.

Well, at the turn of the 20th century, there were vehicle manufacturers that experimented with electric vehicles.  Cars of the day weren't dependable or reliable, they didn't go fast, and they didn't go far.  That was regardless of whether they were electric or gasoline powered.  Everything was sort of equally crappy.  But within a few years, internal combustion engines started making progress that the electric cars couldn't match.

The large scale corporate support for gasoline engines only came after a brief period of competition between the two technologies.  It's true that once they settled on gasoline, there was very little interest in going electric for a very long time.  But they didn't just pick that direction for no reason.

I'd say the more likely case for electric cars during the Succession Wars would be that maybe once we figure out how to make the batteries, it turns out it's a simpler process than we previously believed.  It may be that you need a certain tech level to invent the thing, but once you know the process you can do it more easily.

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #17 on: 06 September 2017, 23:32:13 »
Everything was sort of equally crappy.  But within a few years, internal combustion engines started making progress that the electric cars couldn't match.
Still can't.  Even with today's battery technology, the best you're going to get from an entire carful of batteries is the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline.  The energy density is just not there with electrics, even after all the thermal inefficiency.

Though I always wondered just HOW a BT fusion reactor generated usable power.  Thermocouples?  Magic?
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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #19 on: 06 September 2017, 23:41:21 »
Magical wires.

Given the apparent tokomak-style workings of BT fusors, it'll be pulling electricity directly out of the motion of the hot plasma. The BT fusors are working at a level where they'll hardly notice the parasitic pull.

It's the only way I can think of that keeps things "in the box", as it were. MHDs typically need an exhaust for hot working fluid; for example, hooking MHDs onto an open cycle nuclear engine would be an efficient way of making power. Just only while under thrust.

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Kovax

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #20 on: 07 September 2017, 09:03:48 »
Kovax, that's not going to deal with the fundmental problem of no gas stations for the next 1,000km. Imagine if the only state with any real development between Florida and California was Texas. There's small, isolated, settlements, but nothing above a couple of hundred people. And even those places are few and far between.
If there are no gas stations for the next 1000km, then Billy-Bob's ethanol-powered "pickup truck equivalent" is still going to need to carry enough fuel for 1000km.  If you're driving an ICE/Electric hybrid, it's no different: you also need to carry enough fuel for those 1000km, but you've got a much smaller engine that only has to deliver "average" power (not be over-built to provide "maximum required power"), and is able to run in a far more fuel-efficient mode, while burning the same type of ethanol fuel as Billy-Bob's locally fabricated low-tech ride.  Billy-Bob is going to have to stop to refuel at some point, just as you are; the difference is that he's carrying 50% more fuel than you to get there, while you're carrying roughly the same additional weight in batteries and electric motors.  You could even supplement your power during daylight hours with solar cells while you drive, or catch a few hours of nap time along the way; he can't.

Basically, your batteries are for use around town (10km trips, give or take a bit) or for short bursts of power when needed on hills or for acceleration; the little ICE engine only needs to run the alternator/generator at "average" power consumption levels to keep the batteries from running dry.

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #21 on: 09 September 2017, 15:36:38 »
Well in B-tech cars in the 1 to 2 ton range have quite good mileage for their "fuel" type, and that is largely for every class (though im not 100% on Fuel cell cars).

ICE cars can get dozens of km on a liter of fuel, Electric are not that far off either.
IIRC it's not impossible for a ICE car that mass's 1,000kg and moves at 6/9 to have a fuel economy in the range of 93 MPG... (considering most cars nowdays are reaching 40MPG...)

Heck even B-tech MBTs have fairly comparable fuel economy to their real life counter parts.
The 60 ton Bulldog gets 1,000km on a 2.3 ton fuel tank roughly 3,070 liters (307L/100km), an M1 Abrams gets around 430km on 1,900 liters (440L/100km) & the Leopard II gets around 340km on 1,200 liters on roads (340/100km), or 220km off road (530L/100km).

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #22 on: 11 September 2017, 07:21:10 »
Even with today's battery technology, the best you're going to get from an entire carful of batteries is the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline.

I have to be mis-understanding what you meant here, as the way I'm understanding your statement, this is patently not true. Even the less advanced EVs go far further than 25 miles on a charge. The long-range Tesla Model 3 is at least 310 miles, and that isn't a "car-full of batteries", just 400 kgs built into a slab under the car.

Could you expand on what you meant?

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #23 on: 11 September 2017, 07:26:40 »
Hey, Electric cars on some of these 20th Century bound worlds could be related to Trolley Buses style vehicles, aka bumper cars.
It took 21st Century to get to reliable electrical vehicles.  Some worlds with tainted or even poisonous maybe unable to utilized ICE engines and it's all hybrid/Electrical. 
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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #24 on: 11 September 2017, 20:03:08 »
ICE vehicles have the advantage that fuel only needs a container that will store liquids (i.e. 55 gallon drum, large plastic bag, etc).  Fairly easy to make, as if you double the length, width, height, you only need 4* the surface area, but can store 8* the fuel.  Battery storage would require 8* the battery.  Battery might allow you to toss a solar panel array on the vehicle to keep some power flowing (and depending on orientation, allow some shade too), but the solar panel is a bit higher tech base than a metal drum.

ICE fuel storage can also be used for regular cargo too, as long as you are careful about what you put in it.  Empty 55 gallon drum can be used to haul MREs, empty plastic fuel bladder can be compacted and put in a smaller container.  But empty batteries take up the same amount of space and mass as full batteries.


So ICE engines work great when you need low to mid tech flexible vehicle capacity, while Battery works great when you have access to something to keep the battery charged.  That something is often either a power grid, or local fusion plant.
« Last Edit: 26 September 2017, 22:49:12 by idea weenie »

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #25 on: 11 September 2017, 21:36:50 »
Hey, Electric cars on some of these 20th Century bound worlds could be related to Trolley Buses style vehicles, aka bumper cars.
like the alternate world cars in the Super Mario Brothers live action movie?  ::)

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #26 on: 12 September 2017, 06:05:00 »
like the alternate world cars in the Super Mario Brothers live action movie?  ::)
Exactly!  Just hope they have better breaks! Those DinoDrivers were terrible at that in the movie!  ;D

However the Trolley style electrical lines isn't out of reach of 20th Century technology, it's the battery tech.  Since it isn't defined, we don't know where tech abilities are.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #27 on: 12 September 2017, 19:46:30 »
Another consideration is that many worlds in BT are depicted at being either more mineral poor or mineral rich than Earth.  And while an ICE can be made out of relatively common iron, and I suppose batteries can too, batteries made with materials that may be hard to come back on many BT worlds are dramatically better, while fancy aluminum engines are a more modest improvement. 

Anyway, I don't mostly dwell on it since BT is the future of the 80s, which means ICE is the standard.  And, in the future of BT, they may never have really gotten into electric cars.  There'd likely be no Tesla Motors, since in BT the fusion engine was invented in the 90s (if memory serves) and so technology followed a very different trajectory from the past two decades.
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Kovax

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #28 on: 07 November 2017, 11:03:40 »
The stated "ICE" or "Fusion" power source doesn't rule out electric drive to the wheels, or battery storage of the energy between it being generated and when it's used to move the vehicle.  The vehicles might have direct drive trains from the engines (as today's gasoline and diesel vehicles do), but they could be (or at least some of them could be) electric hybrids.  That would go a long way toward explaining the fuel efficiency.  Since fusion engines are primarily used to generate electrical power, that seems like the most probably arrangement for them in the BT universe as well.

The difference between hybrid and ICE:

ICE - You only need 12 horsepower for cruising speed on a level road, but you can easily draw 200 hp or more when climbing a steep hill or accelerating rapidly.  The engine needs to deliver 200 horsepower, whether you use it or not.  The engine needs to be able to deliver most of that power level at a wide range of RPMs, meaning that it's not optimized for any particular speed.  The engine typically requires refined fuels, but a diesel engine can burn a wider range of fuels but at a higher overall weight per horsepower.  If you run out of fuel, you have to get more, or be towed.

Hybrid - You only need 12 horsepower for cruising, so the engine only needs to generate about 15-20 horsepower to replenish what's drawn from the batteries by the electric motors that propel the vehicle.  When you need 200 horsepower, the motors draw the required power, and when you don't need that much, the little engine can gradually replace that energy which was pulled from the batteries.  The small engine can be optimized to run at its most efficient RPM rate, which means high energy efficiency from the fuel.  With a diesel engine, it can burn practically any flammable liquid, including home-refined bio-fuels, and the modest engine requirement means that a diesel's relative weight isn't that big an issue.  A set of solar panels on the top of the vehicle can provide some limited emergency power (limited to a few miles per day) in case you run completely out of fuel.

The latter design strikes me as far closer to what the BT universe would use, although one would need to accept that "engine weight" in the design section would include both power plant (ICE or Fusion) and batteries for a hybrid.

glitterboy2098

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #29 on: 07 November 2017, 14:39:22 »
also worth noting that ICE can include Turbine systems, since aircraft with Turbine based jet engines are classified as ICE. Turbines can burn just about anything liquid and combustible, though their fuel efficiency can suffer compared to more conventional engine designs.

Iracundus

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #30 on: 12 November 2017, 05:47:25 »
With the low populations of many worlds, I imagine car culture would not have much hold outside of the major urban hubs since the infrastructure isn't there to support it.  They still might have a few local cars (and old ones at that since things seem to age incredibly well in this universe), but I would see people in smaller settlements doing any long distance travel by some form of mass transport such as rail, air, or maybe scheduled bus service.   
 

idea weenie

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #31 on: 12 November 2017, 16:10:18 »
With the low populations of many worlds, I imagine car culture would not have much hold outside of the major urban hubs since the infrastructure isn't there to support it.  They still might have a few local cars (and old ones at that since things seem to age incredibly well in this universe), but I would see people in smaller settlements doing any long distance travel by some form of mass transport such as rail, air, or maybe scheduled bus service. 

For going to/from fixed locations rail would be more likely as it is cheaper, but if there is significant environmental damage to the rails (sandstorms covering the tracks), then a bus service would work.  This is from comparing the 1800s era of exploration of covered wagon vs rail.

Now for setting up a new mining/manufacturing location you'd see wheeled/hover transport, as there is no rail network yet.  You'd also have to determine if the new location is worth investing in a rail network (i.e. if rail will pay for itself in 5 years, but the resource will mine out in 2, don't do it).

Unless you have dedicated nuclear vehicles, go with rail using combined diesel/electric engines to known locations.  Nuclear powered vehicles will cost more up front, but the lack of fuel needs mean they can stay out as long as their food/spare parts supplies last.  They also get more efficient the larger they get (radiation shielding is based on surface area of the reactor, while power is based on volume), so a lot of crew and cargo can be hauled by them.


The other option is water transport, which can be about half the cost of ground transport.  Rivers are useful, but tend to not always be convenient.  Canals can be built where it is convenient, but take a while.  As an example, the Erie Canal (taking 1818-1825 to construct) reduced shipping costs between Buffalo and New York to 15% of what they were before, as well as changing travel time from ~3 weeks to 8 days.  The problem with canals is elevation changes though they can be solved with interesting methods.


So for exploration on a planet's surface, I'd see orbital mapping being the first part, then river transport being used to get close, followed by wheeled/treaded/hover transport to go where the rivers aren't.  Once a good location is found, you can expect population growth in the area supported by the surface transports, and a rail network expanded to the location.  Depending on resupply of the rail unit, you may see smaller depots set up along the way so the long-distance train can have the necessary supplies.

Or if the founder of the new location has the funds, the industry, and the ego, they may go with a fission powered aircraft or hovercraft.
« Last Edit: 06 January 2018, 22:21:56 by idea weenie »

Kovax

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #32 on: 13 November 2017, 12:20:14 »
Since fossil fuels are going to be limited to a small number of worlds with similar ecology and geology to earth, growing crops for bio-fuels, refining raw materials to extract flammable hydrocarbons, separating combustible hydrogen from other elements, or burning methane are all possible alternatives, depending on local availability of those materials.  Diesel engines that burn a wide variety of fuels date back to WWI, and can be manufactured locally on a lot of planets without an advanced industrial base.

Fusion reactors are higher tech, needing to be imported, but are a viable option if what they're powering can pay for it.

Other options may require some parts being imported, with the rest of the system or vehicle produced on-planet.

As pointed out, more advanced public transport between major centers is to be expected, but on some worlds a lot of remote facilities may require personal vehicles.

Hythos

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #33 on: 08 December 2017, 22:59:11 »
also worth noting that ICE can include Turbine systems, since aircraft with Turbine based jet engines are classified as ICE. Turbines can burn just about anything liquid and combustible, though their fuel efficiency can suffer compared to more conventional engine designs.
Beat me to it ;) (and yes, I'm now realizing that the last message in the thread was a month old, not Dec7th... lol)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
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idea weenie

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #34 on: 10 December 2017, 15:24:06 »
Since fossil fuels are going to be limited to a small number of worlds with similar ecology and geology to earth, growing crops for bio-fuels, refining raw materials to extract flammable hydrocarbons, separating combustible hydrogen from other elements, or burning methane are all possible alternatives, depending on local availability of those materials.  Diesel engines that burn a wide variety of fuels date back to WWI, and can be manufactured locally on a lot of planets without an advanced industrial base.

Fusion reactors are higher tech, needing to be imported, but are a viable option if what they're powering can pay for it.

Other options may require some parts being imported, with the rest of the system or vehicle produced on-planet.

As pointed out, more advanced public transport between major centers is to be expected, but on some worlds a lot of remote facilities may require personal vehicles.

I'm getting a mental image of a prison colony that uses electrical vehicles, and at the center of the base is a giant battery setup.  The prison vehicles only have a range of ~200 km, and the nearest neighbor is ~400 km away.  The prisoners mine whatever is present, and when they have a full load they call the warden to have a (fusion powered) shuttle land to drop off fresh food, pick up the load, and recharge the batteries.  If they try anything, the shuttle just doesn't come, and the prisoners go hungry (or are carpet-bombed).  Make sure it is on a planet with little vegetation (or just a desert region).

To keep the prisoners tired, there are giant gang-cycles set up for 6-10 people to pedal and use that to help recharge the batteries.  A meter at the front lets them know how well they are doing.  Putting the gangcycles next to each other lets groups 'compete' against each other.

Korzon77

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #35 on: 14 January 2018, 06:15:27 »
I'd think fuel cells would be more common a fuel cell would be easier with the number of fusion engines in BT

They probably would be--but note that until comparatively recently, they weren't included in the game. Which is something needed to remember about Btech technology--it's based on what the writers assumed would be advanced tech, and in the 1980s, it was ICE and fusion with batteries this somewhat laughable thing that people occasionally talked about.

idea weenie

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Re: The electric car vs the Succession wars: tech and manufacturing
« Reply #36 on: 14 January 2018, 14:13:52 »
One thing to consider is relative energy densities.  As an example from today's technology, the following is a list of different types in increasing order of MJ/kg:
Water at 100M height - .001
Energy needed to melt ice - .334-.335
Compressed air (300 bar) - .5
Lithium-Ion Battery - .875 (high end) (rechargeable)
Lithium metal - 1.8 (not rechargeable yet)
Ham & cheese sandwich - 10
Wood - 16.2
AA Battery - 24-26
Coal: ~30
Body Fat - 38
Kerosene - 42.8
Car gasoline - 46
Diesel - 48
Methane - 55
C Battery - 65-82
Hydrogen (burning the gas) - 142
Tritium (via nuclear decay only) - 583,000
Plutonium 238 in an RTG - 2.2 million
Uranium/Thorium (breeder reactors) - ~80M
Deuterium - ~88M

So rechargeable Lithium batteries are good in that they can be refilled with ordinary electricity, but they are really bad in terms of storing energy compared to wood, let alone gasoline. These numbers are why I want to put in a RTG style charger for battery powered vehicles.  Similar to today's electric cars that have a regular car engine in them too to help charge the battery.

So assuming we want to convert this to Battletech, then assuming you allocate 1 kilogram of fuel for the vehicle to go 1 km, and this is done via rechargeable lithium metal batteries (1.8 MJ/kg), you would be able to go the following distances with other fuel sources:
Wood: 9 km
Gasoline (ICE) - 25 km
Hydrogen fuel - 78 km
Tritium decay - 323,000  km
Thorium reactor - 43 million km
(If you want to try comparing using Lithium-ion batteries, the above distances would be doubled)
This of course not factoring in the engine mass itself.

 

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