Author Topic: Chinese names in BT  (Read 18997 times)

Kidd

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #30 on: 08 September 2017, 14:35:33 »
Don't think so...
See what I mean? I know nothing about Koreans ;D

Weird thought. Are over half of the people who have responded here Australia based?
No. Australia is highly cosmopolitan and so makes for a good example, is all. Nation of convicts immigrants, eh, diggers? ::)

jimdigris

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #31 on: 08 September 2017, 15:38:05 »
But Wikipedia tells me that if that's the case, Sian should be spelt Xi'an.
I thought that the planet Sian was named for the old name of Thailand.

Iracundus

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #32 on: 08 September 2017, 16:32:19 »
I thought that the planet Sian was named for the old name of Thailand.

That was Siam, not Sian.

Nav_Alpha

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #33 on: 08 September 2017, 20:04:48 »
See what I mean? I know nothing about Koreans ;D
No. Australia is highly cosmopolitan and so makes for a good example, is all. Nation of convicts immigrants, eh, diggers? ::)

Oi! 'Nuff of that - or you'll be the latest to to get caught up in our growing citizenship scandal and deported to New Zealand....

I speak/read decent level German and I'm yet to see any glaring errors in any of the Lyran place names, etc. Of course I'm not an authority or anything.
But maybe TPTB had someone who is a German native?


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Mendrugo

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #34 on: 08 September 2017, 20:16:28 »
Keep in mind that a not-insignificant portion of the Confederation's named personalities have "Chinese" names that are actually terrible phonetic puns.

Han Soom Gui (Handsome Guy)
Mai Tee Phain (Mighty Fine)
Tai Wun Ahn (Tie One On)
Nin Tehn Do (CO of the Arcade Rangers)
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qc mech3

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #35 on: 08 September 2017, 21:04:40 »
You know, it's the same thing for the few time french is used in the books or fiction. The more common is a gender swap on the articles used with the subject of the phrase.  #P

That's something I do see often because there's no gender neutral article, like ''it'', in french. everything is a he or she and google translate get helbie dices most of the time  :P :P :P

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #36 on: 08 September 2017, 21:29:57 »
But maybe TPTB had someone who is a German native?
There's a lot of Germanic descent in the American midwest, especially the northern areas where FASA started.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #37 on: 08 September 2017, 22:24:20 »
Keep in mind that a not-insignificant portion of the Confederation's named personalities have "Chinese" names that are actually terrible phonetic puns.

Han Soom Gui (Handsome Guy)
Mai Tee Phain (Mighty Fine)
Tai Wun Ahn (Tie One On)
Nin Tehn Do (CO of the Arcade Rangers)

Ah yes...reminds me of this news report from a few years back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtxds204ZMI

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Feenix74

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #38 on: 09 September 2017, 03:50:35 »
I went to look up the Aus guidelines to show you, but it turns out I misremembered; it is indeed formatted Jung Min Lee*. Can't remember which organisation I encountered which formatted oriental names thusly.

It makes a certain sense, in the case where Min is the last name and Jung the middle name, conforming somewhat to western names e.g. James Tiberius Kirk. In Chinese tradition at least, the middle name denotes one's generation and isn't a double-barreled first name. Thus siblings and cousins of the same generation would share the same middle name: a hypothetical sister of your wife might be named, say, Lee Jung Hyun... though I don't know if Korean culture also has this format, I'm just using an example. In fact I do share the same middle name with my brother and cousin... but again, with westernisation and evolving naming traditions, I foresee we will be the last of our families to have practised this.

*Interestingly however if one's name is e.g. Jane Lee Jung Min, the Aussie guidelines say to fill in Jane Jung Min as first name...

Being Australian of chinese descent, yep it was fun growing up with this. My chinese name's second character has become my first name that I use everyday is actually my generational name that I share with both of my younger brothers. My chinese name's third character (which is my personal character/name) is now effectively my middle name. Both of my brothers were born here in Australia, so they were given english first names and their both their chinese name characters are their middle names.

We have kept the same tradition with our kids, so that they all share the same generational name as the first of their middle names "zhi". Although I am the only one to make the effort to make sure that my kids have proper pinyin translations of their chinese names, my brothers have used the prettier translation "chi" my father has provided (a phonetic translation of the cantonese pronunciation of the character that does not really follow any published system that I know of). So within one generation and across interstate border there is already a drift . . .  :o

Could be worse . . . I met another Aussie of chinese descent, who's family had migrated to Australia in the 19th century and as a result of the mix up in understand how chinese names worked, his great-great grandfather's given names are now their family's surname  :D

So as Kidd said, just do not over think it, it just a game for our enjoyment  O0
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Jellico

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #39 on: 09 September 2017, 05:38:39 »
Oi! 'Nuff of that - or you'll be the latest to to get caught up in our growing citizenship scandal and deported to New Zealand....

I speak/read decent level German and I'm yet to see any glaring errors in any of the Lyran place names, etc. Of course I'm not an authority or anything.
But maybe TPTB had someone who is a German native?

There are all sorts of errors. Some accidental. Some intentional.

I know I put at least one through a couple of German speakers, was told it was grammatically incorrect, but pushed on because it sounded cooler to the English ear.

Which does bring up a problem, especially with Asian languages. They don't always translate cleanly and sometimes you just have to go with rule of cool.

Other times your local translator just stares at you like you are crazy. Trying to get a weapon themed name for the Taihou out of my local Japanese speaker (12 years in Tokyo as a local. But no interest or experience in the tropes of Sci-fi) was an exercise in pulling teeth.

Kidd

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #40 on: 09 September 2017, 06:13:18 »
@Jellico - believe our forum anime fans could've helped with that ;)

@Mendrugo - dear god... that is insane. Some names make so much sense now!

Iracundus

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #41 on: 09 September 2017, 06:26:36 »
There are all sorts of errors. Some accidental. Some intentional.

I know I put at least one through a couple of German speakers, was told it was grammatically incorrect, but pushed on because it sounded cooler to the English ear.

Which does bring up a problem, especially with Asian languages. They don't always translate cleanly and sometimes you just have to go with rule of cool.

Other times your local translator just stares at you like you are crazy. Trying to get a weapon themed name for the Taihou out of my local Japanese speaker (12 years in Tokyo as a local. But no interest or experience in the tropes of Sci-fi) was an exercise in pulling teeth.

There seem to be a lot of Asian language forum posters here.  I'm surprised it was that difficult.  HBS asked for multi-lingual translations for something on their forums and easily got it done.  Even if there might be quibbling over some stylistic phrasing or terminology, usually it is at least passable, and far better than some of the cringe inducing names of the past.

Feenix74

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #42 on: 09 September 2017, 06:43:20 »
I provided a forumite a couple of translations a few years ago, I think it was a for a fan project but did not hear back from the forumite if they ever progressed it:

armoured infantry = zhuāngjiǎ bùbīng 装甲步兵 (which is literally armoured footsoldier)

battlemech = jujīqìbīng 巨机器 (which is literally giant robot soldier)

division = shī 师

Incoming fire has the right of way.

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Iracundus

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #43 on: 09 September 2017, 06:50:08 »
I provided a forumite a couple of translations a few years ago, I think it was a for a fan project but did not hear back from the forumite if they ever progressed it:

armoured infantry = zhuāngjiǎ bùbīng 装甲步兵 (which is literally armoured footsoldier)

battlemech = jujīqìbīng 巨机器 (which is literally giant robot soldier)

division = shī 师

As with most languages, it is often not the straight word for word translations that trip up, as there are dictionaries for those, but when it gets into actual sentences and usage.  At that point, it takes someone fluent to translate or give feedback about what is awkward and unnatural vs. what people would actually say. 

Feenix74

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #44 on: 09 September 2017, 07:04:42 »
The good thing about chinese is that often it is quiet literal when new words are required. For example, "computer" in chinese is 电脑 (diàn nǎo) which literally translates as electric brain.
Incoming fire has the right of way.

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Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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Iracundus

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #45 on: 09 September 2017, 07:59:12 »
The good thing about chinese is that often it is quiet literal when new words are required. For example, "computer" in chinese is 电脑 (diàn nǎo) which literally translates as electric brain.

Alas things are not even that simple.  China also uses  计算机 for computer.  In the 1980's, in China, it was more likely computer would be referred to as 电子计算机, and arguably is a more accurate translation for computer even if it is more awkward and clunky.   电脑 or actually the traditional character 電腦 was the term first used outside China. 

The problem gets worse when one gets into more abstract, less concrete, terms.  I already pointed out earlier in this thread how "Chancellor's Will" was romanized Huang Di Yi Zhi (which should translate as " 皇帝意志") but was rendered by an artist on the color plate as 皇帝會.  Yet alongside this traditional character use, the logo directly next to it uses simplified characters, and which also conflicts with the romanization next to it.  Death Commandos is romanized as Si Wang Te Gong Dui (Trad: 死亡突攻隊 Simpl: 死亡突攻队) but the art logo shows simplified 死别动队.  It's like the artist and romanization person were working not communicating to each other and were both doing their own thing. 

When it comes to translating abstract terms, sometimes multiple translations are possible and which one to use depends on what nuance or context is desired.  Just try translating the term for the Chancellor, Celestial Wisdom.  I can guarantee Google Translate won't cut it.  To get something close, one has to know how historical Chinese Emperors were addressed. 
« Last Edit: 09 September 2017, 08:09:06 by Iracundus »

Dubble_g

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #46 on: 09 September 2017, 08:46:06 »
Alas things are not even that simple.  China also uses  计算机 for computer.  In the 1980's, in China, it was more likely computer would be referred to as 电子计算机, and arguably is a more accurate translation for computer even if it is more awkward and clunky.   电脑 or actually the traditional character 電腦 was the term first used outside China.

Interesting that Chinese has come up with so many words for it. In Japan, a PC is called a -- this will blow your minds guys -- PC. Conpyuta, Pasonaru Conpyuta or Pasocon also work, but plain old PC is the most common one I've heard. Which brings up a good point about "linguistic drift": what you get in the fiction is foreign words hammered into English grammar (due to the "rule of cool" as someone mentioned), but what actually happens is you get English loanwords shoehorned into the existing grammar. Modem = モデム (modemu), mouse = マウス (mausu) etc.

Classic example with Japanese is the word "double." Say it in Japanese - ダブル (daburu) and the final -ru makes it look a lot like a Japanese verb. So of course Japanese people now use the word like a verb: ダブった (past tense: something was doubled or duplicated), ダブっている (present continuous: something is now in the state of being doubled/duplicated). 

I think if you really wanted to portray how linguistic drift will affect languages in the future, you'd need to consider that a major source of drift is borrowing from other languages.
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Iracundus

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #47 on: 09 September 2017, 09:12:26 »
Interesting that Chinese has come up with so many words for it. In Japan, a PC is called a -- this will blow your minds guys -- PC. Conpyuta, Pasonaru Conpyuta or Pasocon also work, but plain old PC is the most common one I've heard. Which brings up a good point about "linguistic drift": what you get in the fiction is foreign words hammered into English grammar (due to the "rule of cool" as someone mentioned), but what actually happens is you get English loanwords shoehorned into the existing grammar. Modem = モデム (modemu), mouse = マウス (mausu) etc.

Classic example with Japanese is the word "double." Say it in Japanese - ダブル (daburu) and the final -ru makes it look a lot like a Japanese verb. So of course Japanese people now use the word like a verb: ダブった (past tense: something was doubled or duplicated), ダブっている (present continuous: something is now in the state of being doubled/duplicated). 

I think if you really wanted to portray how linguistic drift will affect languages in the future, you'd need to consider that a major source of drift is borrowing from other languages.

This is where the language structure can come into play and affect what happens.  Japanese has the katakana to absorb foreign words and names, and their pronunciation (and mutate it to fit the constraints of the sounds possible within katakana).  Chinese translations of proper names (particularly long multi-syllabic ones) can be horrendously difficult to backward translate/map back onto the original language based on pronunciation, because Chinese is one phoneme one character, and the pronunciation of the translation can be much further from the original than katakana might be. 

Translation of concrete or technical terms is based more on meaning rather than sound.  The translation of carbohydrate for example is virtually the same in both Chinese and Japanese:  (Japanese: 炭水化物  Chinese: 炭水化合物).  Both basically direct translate the component English parts: carbon, hydrate (water compound).   

How will this relate back to the BT fiction?  The main thing really is the proper names I think..  In all other cases as someone said, when the characters are conversing in their main non-English language, it is rendered into English for the reader, rather than require the author to produce a perfect piece of non-English language conversation (and render it unintelligble to the English reader). 

NeonKnight

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #48 on: 09 September 2017, 09:20:56 »
It gets even funnier.

Regardless of what it may seem like I cannot speak korean for the life of me. Obviously my wife is fluent as Korean is her mother tongue.

Now, here is the funny thing. I still laugh when I listen to her talk to her friends in korean. Even the ones who live here in Canada and can speak English, when they are talking Korean, and use English words, they still pronounce them the Korean way.

Example:

We live in Vancouver, She calls it Vancouver when talking english. But as soon as her and her friends start talking Korean, it is no longer Vancouver, but Pronounced more like Bancoba (밴쿠버), because there is no V or R sounds in Korean.

Again, even though her and her friends LIVE in Vancouver, can speak damn near fluent english, start talking Korean, as all english words suddenly get pronounced the Korean way.

Food for Thought
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Iracundus

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #49 on: 09 September 2017, 09:27:51 »
It gets even funnier.

Regardless of what it may seem like I cannot speak korean for the life of me. Obviously my wife is fluent as Korean is her mother tongue.

Now, here is the funny thing. I still laugh when I listen to her talk to her friends in korean. Even the ones who live here in Canada and can speak English, when they are talking Korean, and use English words, they still pronounce them the Korean way.

Example:

We live in Vancouver, She calls it Vancouver when talking english. But as soon as her and her friends start talking Korean, it is no longer Vancouver, but Pronounced more like Bancoba (밴쿠버), because there is no V or R sounds in Korean.

Again, even though her and her friends LIVE in Vancouver, can speak damn near fluent english, start talking Korean, as all english words suddenly get pronounced the Korean way.

Food for Thought

I have experienced the opposite.  The English names (and awkward terminology) get pronounced perfectly in English before the channel flips again and the rest is non-English.  Freaks out the monolinguals as they catch the odd word here and there and wonder what they are missing out on:  blah blah blah Sydney blah blah magnetic strip blah blah

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #50 on: 09 September 2017, 11:53:17 »
One of the biggest challenges you run into with writing Chinese names & terms for English-speaking audiences is that Pinyin pronounciation is really counter-intuitive. When I created the name for the 'Mech Yao Lien, the name I & my Chinese-native friend worked out for it was "妖臉", roughly meaning false or demonic face.

In Pinyin, that's rendered Yāo Liǎn, but to the average Battletech player, those accents are just confusing & the resulting pronounciation would be something equivalent to "Yow Leon", which isn't correct. Ergo, we decided to change the rendering to Yao Lien to get the second character's reading closer to its actual pronounciation.

Unfortunately, while there's been more & more foreign loan-words creeping into Battletech, there hasn't been enough to justify amending the style guide to insist on certain forms of rendering for each language, & individual authors have simply acted independently to render them as accurately as they can to an audience largely even less familar with the grammar & pronounciation of these languages. In the case of Chinese specifically, this is compounded by a modern standard of romanization which provides better linguistic accuracy than previous methods but is significantly less intelligible to a casual English readership.
 



Kidd

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #51 on: 09 September 2017, 12:39:34 »
But as soon as her and her friends start talking Korean, it is no longer Vancouver, but Pronounced more like Bancoba (밴쿠버), because there is no V or R sounds in Korean.
Think I can explain that. Simple analogy: you say Florence, not Firenze, right? Many English place names and proper nouns have been given Chinese or Korean versions, heaven knows by whom, and we do tend to use them when speaking in our respective languages. I doubt anyone here who picked up Italian would start calling that city Firenze when speaking in English, no?

Daryk

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #52 on: 09 September 2017, 12:43:21 »
I'm not so sure about that... I'll refer to Naples as Napoli depending on who I'm talking to...

Kidd

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #53 on: 09 September 2017, 12:47:38 »
I'm not so sure about that... I'll refer to Naples as Napoli depending on who I'm talking to...
Naples in english to english speakers, Napoli in italian to italian speakers?

Daryk

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #54 on: 09 September 2017, 12:50:21 »
No, Napoli to English speakers who also served in Napoli.

Kidd

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #55 on: 09 September 2017, 12:51:36 »
No, Napoli to English speakers who also served in Napoli.
Right, well I can't explain that  ;D

Jellico

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #56 on: 09 September 2017, 15:30:21 »
One of the biggest challenges you run into with writing Chinese names & terms for English-speaking audiences is that Pinyin pronounciation is really counter-intuitive. When I created the name for the 'Mech Yao Lien, the name I & my Chinese-native friend worked out for it was "妖臉", roughly meaning false or demonic face.

In Pinyin, that's rendered Yāo Liǎn, but to the average Battletech player, those accents are just confusing & the resulting pronounciation would be something equivalent to "Yow Leon", which isn't correct. Ergo, we decided to change the rendering to Yao Lien to get the second character's reading closer to its actual pronounciation.

Counter intuitive to English speakers. The vowel shift a few centuries back does us no favours approaching the alphabet phonetically.

Check out many Chinese county names. It is a solid attempt at being phonetic.
I actually have a theory that the Chinese language can't say sounds that there isn't a character for. For example in those countries they use characters that sound as close as possible. In contrast the phonetic languages have all sorts of accents and tones to drag them closer to how a word should sound. It is not that silly when you remember that the written Chinese language is the Chinese language in a way none of the dialect are.

Which is not to say that it can't be fun.
Take Kevin Rudd = Liu Ke Wen = Road Kevin.

Curiously this author has found extra meanings.
  http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2008/02/29/2176370.htm

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #57 on: 09 September 2017, 17:29:36 »
As for pooh-poohing the concept/excuse of Linguistic Drift.... we've already seen in in action inside the BTU.

Kaznejov has been officially renamed Kaznejoy because the "v" on the end of the name happened to lie upon the 500ly-from-Terra circle displayed upon the IS map.

New Vandenberg has apparently been renamed New Vandenburg.  Sarna hasn't acknowledged this name change as of yet, and all I can imagine is that the ruling was ignorant of the significance of the name "Vandenberg" in early/real-life Terran spaceflight.

At any rate, names and words can change for the silliest of reasons.  Especially if you give it a thousand years.

NeonKnight

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #58 on: 09 September 2017, 18:04:15 »
Think I can explain that. Simple analogy: you say Florence, not Firenze, right? Many English place names and proper nouns have been given Chinese or Korean versions, heaven knows by whom, and we do tend to use them when speaking in our respective languages. I doubt anyone here who picked up Italian would start calling that city Firenze when speaking in English, no?

Its not quite that it's a Korean word for Vancouver, but a Korean pronunciation of Vancouver.

Let me explain. First, written Korean is very easy, having an alphabet that was actually designed for language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul



and



Under this form, it is actually written in 'blocks' each of which is a Syllable of the word. So for English Speakers, we know Vancouver, has three syllables: VAN-COU-VER. It's korean counter part is:

밴쿠버, which is also three syllables: 밴 (Pronounced Ban) 쿠 (pronounced Ku) and 버 (pronounced Ba)

Just like Korea, is our poorly pronounced Western way of what was actually one of the Three kingdoms that made up Korean back in the 12th/13th Century or so when discovered by Arab explorers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea#Three_Kingdoms

So, in a nut-shell, One of these three Kingdoms was 고려 (고 - Ko/Go, 려-Ryo or Lyo depending) which was a shortening of an earlier 고구려 Goguryeo or Koguryŏ  (고 Ko/Go, 구 Gu/Ku, 려 Ryo/Lyo)

Of course this what we westerners (and likely most asian countries as well) call Korea, but for Korean they call their country Hanguk (한국) which translates literally as Country of the Han (What they call themselves).

Ultimately my point being, if Someone never knew there was a city called Vancouver, and they overheard two fictional Koreans talking of said place, yes the Koreans are using the English word, but due to limitations of their native language for certain sounds they are mispronouncing it. So, this Vancouver is heard as Bankuba, which could be further bastardized as it travels through a few more languages.

Another point is, I have a hard time pronouncing the few Korean words I know. I know most English is spoken with the tip of the tongue against the teeth, and most sounds are formed at the front of the mouth. Korean, I've learned is spoken near the back of the mouth towards the throat, and often with the lips pulled into what could best be described as a grimace (lips pulled back on both sides).

Finally, I like to think of the Inner Sphere map/names as the best representation of  the current viewer/maker. Some fictional person.

Example being, using our Real World, we have the following Countries (That I know personally are NOT what they are called to natives of those countries), and I will apologize now for getting it wrong, but that then goes further to prove my point:

Germany (Deutscheland to German people)
Japan (Nippon to Japanese)
Korea (Hanguk to Koreans)

and that's just me.

So,maybe this IS map with all it's misspellings etc, is the ComStar Version. Capellan IS maps might have slightly Different spellings based on their local dialects, Same with Draconis maps, Steiner Maps, etc.

« Last Edit: 09 September 2017, 18:07:53 by NeonKnight »
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Iracundus

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Re: Chinese names in BT
« Reply #59 on: 09 September 2017, 19:17:22 »
One of the biggest challenges you run into with writing Chinese names & terms for English-speaking audiences is that Pinyin pronounciation is really counter-intuitive. When I created the name for the 'Mech Yao Lien, the name I & my Chinese-native friend worked out for it was "妖臉", roughly meaning false or demonic face.

In Pinyin, that's rendered Yāo Liǎn, but to the average Battletech player, those accents are just confusing & the resulting pronounciation would be something equivalent to "Yow Leon", which isn't correct. Ergo, we decided to change the rendering to Yao Lien to get the second character's reading closer to its actual pronounciation.

Unfortunately, while there's been more & more foreign loan-words creeping into Battletech, there hasn't been enough to justify amending the style guide to insist on certain forms of rendering for each language, & individual authors have simply acted independently to render them as accurately as they can to an audience largely even less familar with the grammar & pronounciation of these languages. In the case of Chinese specifically, this is compounded by a modern standard of romanization which provides better linguistic accuracy than previous methods but is significantly less intelligible to a casual English readership.

The old Wade-Giles system was more intuitive for English speakers, however I think it was developed originally after more contact with Cantonese rather than Mandarin.  The modern Pinyin system may be more linguistically precise but its romanization spellings with all its x's and z's is definitely not intuitive, and I think this is a relic of the Cold War as when it was drawn up, I don't think they had English speakers in mind. 

The Battletech products use non-standard romanizations as you said, and sometimes seem to revert to something almost Wade-Giles, but not quite.

As for pooh-poohing the concept/excuse of Linguistic Drift.... we've already seen in in action inside the BTU.

Kaznejov has been officially renamed Kaznejoy because the "v" on the end of the name happened to lie upon the 500ly-from-Terra circle displayed upon the IS map.

New Vandenberg has apparently been renamed New Vandenburg.  Sarna hasn't acknowledged this name change as of yet, and all I can imagine is that the ruling was ignorant of the significance of the name "Vandenberg" in early/real-life Terran spaceflight.

At any rate, names and words can change for the silliest of reasons.  Especially if you give it a thousand years.

One interesting thing though at least with regards to Chinese, is how the written form's meaning exists independently of its spoken pronunciation.  So pronunciations can change all over the place, but the meanings remain the same.  While there was still some drift due to gradually shifting grammar and character usage, it was far slower and has been hypothesized as a key reason for the cultural continuity of China down the centuries.   It meant people that spoke mutually unintelligible dialects could still communicate through written forms.  It also means written Classical Chinese is more relatively understandable to average modern Chinese readers than Old English is to average English readers, even if the reader has no idea how Classical Chinese was pronounced.
« Last Edit: 09 September 2017, 19:26:38 by Iracundus »