Poll

How to power a laser rifle?

Magazine style powerpacks
42 (68.9%)
Tethered to backpack
13 (21.3%)
Tethered to vest
5 (8.2%)
Tethered to belt pouchs
1 (1.6%)

Total Members Voted: 61

Author Topic: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles  (Read 12117 times)

boilerman

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Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« on: 09 September 2017, 12:01:17 »
Just curious about people's references. So how do you like your laser rifles powered?

BT art shows, or suggests, all listed methods. The old House Steiner handbook show infantry with tethered rifles; what it's connected to is rather ambiguous. I also remember an issue of Battle Technology magazine with a backpack powered laser rifle. The Intek laser rifle in the same issue is powered by a magazine style power pack.

The RPG supports all 4 options and suggests multiply methods can be used on a single rifle design.

Opinions?
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #1 on: 09 September 2017, 12:30:52 »
I like the way the RPG implemented it.  As long as the plug fits, the socket should take it.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #2 on: 09 September 2017, 12:36:05 »
Of course, the RPG has one big plot hole.

The Micro-Power Pacts that by weight to power storage efficiency, blow everything else out of the water. 4 Kilo of Backpack Cell? 200 Power Points. 4 Kilos of Micro Packs? Just shy of 4000 Power Points...

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #3 on: 09 September 2017, 12:41:44 »
I have a fix for that down in the fan designs forum...

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #4 on: 09 September 2017, 13:30:41 »
I'm biased by a 20th century upbringing and like magazines, but how long would my opinion as a soldier last if I could suddenly get 5 or 10 times as many shots from a belt or backpack with a light power cord?
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Ruger

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #5 on: 09 September 2017, 13:52:10 »
While the amount of charges you get from a backpack mount has its appeal, a belt or vest mounted power pack (unless the vest itself is a power pack, and therefore has more charges) really should not have many more charges than a large rifle-mounted magazine. Also, unless the backpack power pack also allows for transport of food, water, and everything else normally carried by a foot soldier (or is slim enough to fit with the other stuff), carrying a backpack power pack would seem to be counterproductive for a foot soldier on the march...not to mention that even with the extra charges, you would likely still need more in a battle, much less a campaign...

And then there is the concern that anything other than a rifle-mounted magazine must have some kind of power transfer tubing, which can be targeted, or can catch on any underbrush, bushes, tree branches, etc., and cause far more problems...

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #6 on: 09 September 2017, 14:15:40 »
I generally go with magazine styles and back pack systems, with many rifles having one or two magazines (whether or not their actually are two or just one big one...), is for general use, with the back pack for extended use, though pulse lasers generally go with back packs due to ammo consumption.

Though 4kg for a few dozen shots for a pulse laser is a bit limiting... Though also RPG wise considering that aGeneric auto rifles get more than 5 times the ammo capacity for the weight, makes one wonder how energy weapons became popular as general use infantry weapons...

Though in universe it seems lasers rifles are fairly powerful, easily in the equivalent range of a 20mm for just a pistol.

boilerman

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #7 on: 09 September 2017, 14:38:10 »
Ruger makes a good point about the tether catch things but I think there a ways to mitigate that problem. And combat webbing and attachments already snag hazards.

Nebfer one big advantage for laser weapons, and the reason they exist as infantry weapons despite their poor firepower relative to firearms IMO is reduced logistics. Ammo can run out, a fusion engine means no need for fuel and reduced ammo requirements. Lasers are not for every infantryman but I think they have there place.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #8 on: 09 September 2017, 14:55:54 »
Despite the many issues with the tethered powerpack, cables for laser guns fit more closely with the pulp sci-fi future of the 80s aesthetic. But I'm also a Steiner fan, so I might be biased towards their traditional style.

Maybe magazine powerpacks for the Dark Age infantry. For some mild degree of technical advancement and miniaturization in the setting.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #9 on: 09 September 2017, 14:58:52 »
My favorite laser rifle is the Intek because it sips power.  You can customize it to eke out even more shots from a given power pack with the rules in the Companion.

Nebfer, the advantage over the Auto-Rifle is two-fold: 1) Laser rifles generally have at least twice the range (if not triple), and 2) If you look at bursts (the way the Auto-Rifle is usually used on the battlefield), the Auto-Rifle only has two "shots" before needing to reload.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #10 on: 09 September 2017, 15:07:11 »
I like a combination, to be honest.  I like having guns with 1-4+ish places for clips to plug in, and also having "sachel" batteries, and battery backpacks.

with that said if one kind of power pack holds tremendously more power/weight I know I would come up with some method to plug a whole bunch of those packs together into a "bigger" pack even if I lost some efficiency.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #11 on: 09 September 2017, 16:22:34 »
Magazine style for me. Can't loot your dead buddy for ammo when it's built into a vest or something.

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Ruger

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #12 on: 09 September 2017, 18:45:24 »
Despite the many issues with the tethered powerpack, cables for laser guns fit more closely with the pulp sci-fi future of the 80s aesthetic. But I'm also a Steiner fan, so I might be biased towards their traditional style.

Maybe magazine powerpacks for the Dark Age infantry. For some mild degree of technical advancement and miniaturization in the setting.

I can agree with these points...

My favorite laser rifle is the Intek because it sips power.  You can customize it to eke out even more shots from a given power pack with the rules in the Companion.

Nebfer, the advantage over the Auto-Rifle is two-fold: 1) Laser rifles generally have at least twice the range (if not triple), and 2) If you look at bursts (the way the Auto-Rifle is usually used on the battlefield), the Auto-Rifle only has two "shots" before needing to reload.

I rather like the Intek myself, but my favorite laser rifle would likely be the Mauser 960 assault system...although I also like the FedSuns M61A laser rifle/compact grenade launcher combo...

Still, I think I would most favor an assault or battle rifle version of the Gauss SMG (with a 3 shot burst or single shot setting), with an underslung compact grenade launcher like the Mauser 960 or M61A systems...just seems a natural progression, and reflects my love of the M41 pulse rifle from Aliens...

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #13 on: 09 September 2017, 19:32:11 »
I also threw together a piece on grenade launchers down in fan rules, trying to account for the "missing" launchers used by the Mauser and other similar combination weapon systems.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #14 on: 09 September 2017, 19:57:07 »
I like the combination; I can only have a limited number of huge things on my back (though more than you might expect...)
But I can carry more in smaller pouches elsewhere.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #15 on: 09 September 2017, 21:02:33 »
I always right Laser Rifle power packs as some cylindrical magazine mounted below the barrel, wires would add to much complexity

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #16 on: 09 September 2017, 21:23:19 »
I'll add my vote to combination. What type of battery you use for your Laser Rifle may depend on the type of rifle how many shots/burn time you need. Most laser rifles probably have a Magazine-like battery you can slap in good for 'X' many shots depending on how long you hold down on the trigger while someone working on fire support may carry a backpack or some other type of larger battery.
 
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #17 on: 10 September 2017, 04:03:36 »
I'd say its a combination.  A laser M-16/AK analogue would probably have a magazine like power clip you put into place and go to town on.  A SAW/Minimi LMG like weapon would probably have a power pack worn as a backpack with a direct link to the gun whilst a .50cal analogue IE a HMG would probably have a big power pack that you'd have issues hauling unless there was two of you. 
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #18 on: 10 September 2017, 08:41:42 »
another idea I had was LBE that the individual power packs plugged into, which then hooked into the laser rifle.
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boilerman

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #19 on: 10 September 2017, 11:47:53 »
I'm somewhat surprised magazine style powerpacks are the majority preference.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #20 on: 10 September 2017, 12:08:29 »
I'm somewhat surprised magazine style powerpacks are the majority preference.

It makes sense considering real world weapons, they are experimenting with ammo backpacks inspired by Old Painless from Predator but that means that infantryman wont be able to carry that much more gear plus the risk something can happen to the ammo feed in the field.  Combined with the fact Battery technology is generations beyond anything in the real world (BTU Datapads only need to recharge maybe once a month while I-pads every 12-24 hours) and your laser rifle still only needs to compete with slug throwers that still average a 30-20 round magazine capacity with few exceptions.

That said, Akira has been one of my ideal of how a realistic Direct Energy Weapon should look and act. While the weapons in the BTU are a little more advance, believe most laser/energy weapons should operate on similar participles: If you need more (or more powerful) shots, you will need a bigger battery so a power pack will be needed. 
« Last Edit: 10 September 2017, 12:12:08 by SteelRaven »
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #21 on: 10 September 2017, 15:11:15 »
Wouldn't tethered power packs also lend themselves to better weight distribution, making the actual weapon lighter and easier to aim? Keeping the weight on the weapon itself will also effect recruitment standards for laser platoons.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #22 on: 10 September 2017, 15:24:34 »

Magazines for me, with the exception of Support Lasers, then the entire squad is burdened anyway.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #23 on: 10 September 2017, 17:14:34 »
What they said - magazines for normal use, packs for heavy use/heavier lasers. Not unlike the MG-34, which came with single- and double-drum hard magazines for movement, and also handled belt-fed ammo from cases when the situation warranted.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #24 on: 10 September 2017, 21:04:04 »
Hmm. I remember a neat display at K-mart showing these with an honest laser light.  Picked up a bunch at a Garage sale, including the Rifle, but not the Helmet.

I guess this will swing my vote.


« Last Edit: 10 September 2017, 21:09:34 by Daemion »
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Ruger

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #25 on: 10 September 2017, 21:13:00 »
Hmm. I remember a neat display at K-mart showing these with an honest laser light.  Picked up a bunch at a Garage sale, including the Rifle, but not the Helmet.

I guess this will swing my vote.



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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #26 on: 10 September 2017, 21:19:53 »
The ones I got still work, but the hat and vest don't fit my large frame or head. So, I'm looking at finding some belts to make extensions or come up with something like a wind-breaker to modify.  If I ever find one of those helmets, I'm so snagging it.

Love the Rifle, since it has the same aesthetic as the pistols. Wish the would revive that style with some of the new stuff.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #27 on: 10 September 2017, 21:25:38 »
My preferences go into both camps. For satchel packs (about the size of a canteen), I prefer to have the power pack plug directly into the rifle magazine-style using some ISO-standard power connector. For backpack packs, I prefer the cable running from the pack to the rifle, simply because the sheer size means that hooking it into a rifle magazine-style requires either high-Elemental levels of brawn, a fixed emplacement, or pure insanity, which is why I would use the backpack size with energy support weapons.

Though I also imagine that the end of the power cable that hooks up to the rifle would use the same ISO-standard power connector as the satchel pack, and connect in the same spot, since the RPG rules technically allow you to run said support weapons on any size power pack, despite how obviously impractical going with the micro or standard sizes would be (do correct me if I'm wrong).

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #28 on: 11 September 2017, 11:05:13 »
Though I also imagine that the end of the power cable that hooks up to the rifle would use the same ISO-standard power connector as the satchel pack, and connect in the same spot, since the RPG rules technically allow you to run said support weapons on any size power pack, despite how obviously impractical going with the micro or standard sizes would be (do correct me if I'm wrong).
With super-conductors it won't be surprising to have an universal power connector for infantry weapons.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #29 on: 11 September 2017, 11:30:32 »
I can easily see the rifles being designed to operate off of either micro power packs, or with a cable to a larger battery pack.  If you're the guy laying down fire support for the squad, you'll have the larger belt or back pack, otherwise the micropacks will do for normal fire.  The weapons would be standardized, but the power considerations can be tailored for the application on the fly as needed.

The normal slug throwers are probably more than adequate for taking on a bunch of other grunts like yourself, but if you run up against an armored car or power armor, you'll suddenly wish you had the hole punching ability of the laser rifle.  I don't see it as something that most squads would use, but one "heavy weapons" (Laser or SRM) squad (or platoon) in a company would make a lot of sense.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #30 on: 11 September 2017, 13:37:08 »
I can easily see the rifles being designed to operate off of either micro power packs, or with a cable to a larger battery pack.  If you're the guy laying down fire support for the squad, you'll have the larger belt or back pack, otherwise the micropacks will do for normal fire.  The weapons would be standardized, but the power considerations can be tailored for the application on the fly as needed.

The normal slug throwers are probably more than adequate for taking on a bunch of other grunts like yourself, but if you run up against an armored car or power armor, you'll suddenly wish you had the hole punching ability of the laser rifle.  I don't see it as something that most squads would use, but one "heavy weapons" (Laser or SRM) squad (or platoon) in a company would make a lot of sense.
it might sound odd but I personally see it a bit different.
in less well equipped units they are going to "mostly" or exclusively going to be equipped with slug throwing weapons, because they are "cheaper" IE cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain, more expensive ongoing ammunition costs (but the people making those decisions usually don't really factor that in, and or may get a direct or indirect kickback to ignore that factor)

in better equipped units they are going to transition to more and more energy weapons, because while they cost more initially, and require different, and likely more expensive maintenance they truly give you the big advantage, of having "universal ammunition" meaning you are packing the laser pistol, and laser rifle, your buddy is packing the pulse laser rifle, fred is packing the sniper (marksman) laser rifle, and bubba is packing the MP-PPC, guess what you ALL use e-clips, bubba might be using a backpack power cell, and a satchel battery, you might be packing several eclips, and a spare satchel battery (for you and in a pinch bubba to use) and etc.  but all your weapons use standard energy clips its just a question of how many shots you get from those clips.  Bubba, basically drains a standard power pack in about 3 shots and a military pack in 30some shots (or 3 bursts) and gets a whole 5 shots from a high cap battery.  but at the end of the day the whole squad can exchange "ammo"

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #31 on: 11 September 2017, 21:01:10 »
I voted for vest because the batteries can also serve as a form of armor.  Both protection and power to shoot with, unless your troops decide to replace a few of the power packs with MREs, water bottles, or other stuff.

Magazines would allow for rapid changing of ammo (turn in your discharged magazines, and receive charged ones)
Belt would allow for carrying weight on the hips (where backpacks usually try to put the weight)
Vest allows for protecting the body (though diving for cover means the cord could be yanked out)
Backpack is for when you need to hold off a lot of people, and would likely be for the support/anti-mek weapons, rather than anti-infantry

I'd expect the cord to have a low-force detaching connector, so if the power cord snags on something it unplugs the rifle, rather than ripping the cord and charging slot so you are stuck with a useless weapon.

I have a fix for that down in the fan designs forum...
I also threw together a piece on grenade launchers down in fan rules, trying to account for the "missing" launchers used by the Mauser and other similar combination weapon systems.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #32 on: 11 September 2017, 23:56:42 »
I wonder if with the advanced tech if you couldn't make magazines that had an adapter to accept a power cord from a bigger battery. 

So everyone carries a few power packs, but you also have a cord running to your vest or backpack feeding charge so you have more shots. 
But if the cord gets severed you still have a few shots in the mag and can swap it out for a fresh one.   

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #33 on: 12 September 2017, 21:58:32 »
I voted for vest because the batteries can also serve as a form of armor.  Both protection and power to shoot with, unless your troops decide to replace a few of the power packs with MREs, water bottles, or other stuff.

Magazines would allow for rapid changing of ammo (turn in your discharged magazines, and receive charged ones)
Belt would allow for carrying weight on the hips (where backpacks usually try to put the weight)
Vest allows for protecting the body (though diving for cover means the cord could be yanked out)
Backpack is for when you need to hold off a lot of people, and would likely be for the support/anti-mek weapons, rather than anti-infantry

I'd expect the cord to have a low-force detaching connector, so if the power cord snags on something it unplugs the rifle, rather than ripping the cord and charging slot so you are stuck with a useless weapon.
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Seriously? Why does the cord have to be free-hanging to begin with?  Why not have it run along the sleeve of your jacket on the inside of your arm? That would keep snags to a minimum. 
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #34 on: 13 September 2017, 00:28:35 »
I voted for magazine style packs, and don't see how anyone can think that anything but some sort of a magazine style energy cell would work for a typical energy weapon.

I may be more into the hard sci-fi area of things (yes I know I am playing the wrong game. ;) ) but the quick change magazine style makes sense. As others have stated, all energy weapons in a squad would run off of these same power packs. Bubba's man pack PPC only gets a shot or two from one, whereas a standard issue infantry laser rifle would get maybe 30-50 or more.

A magazine is fast to change. I can reload an AR in around a second if I have a good reload, and around 2-3 seconds if things get a little sloppy. I shoot a lot, but am not professionally trained, or an active duty soldier. I would imagine that by the time we get around to developing laser rifles, the act of changing a magazine will be even more simplified. So the added benefit of me gets more shots from this dumb backpack is outweighed by the fact that you have to carry around a backpack, with exposed wires of some sort, or at the very least a tether within your combat uniform.
Snagging isn't going to be an issue with a magazine and its not like you have to worry about springs and gravity and feed lips so literally it could be inline with your rifle (as opposed to dangling below it)

I personally believe this
Seriously? Why does the cord have to be free-hanging to begin with?  Why not have it run along the sleeve of your jacket on the inside of your arm? That would keep snags to a minimum. 
is an even worse Idea. By having your rifle permanently tethered to its ammunition supply with a little cord that runs along the inside of your jacket, you now cannot set your rifle down to take a leak, or eat some rations or whatever without disconnecting it from its ammunition. Further, now you have to hump the ammo around as dead weight and not have a usable weapon.

After all of these issues, the biggest one that I see is being able to share ammo with other members of your squad. You're in the middle of a pretty hairy fire fight, and click, your laser runs dry. All out of juice in your gun. If its tethered to some pack or bag, you can't just turn around and yell MAG! to your buddies and have them toss you a spare power pack. And just a guess, they probably aren't going to unplug theirs.

Also its a safety in numbers sort of thing for your ammunition. If you have a big backpack unit, or even a satchel at your hip or whatever, and that thing takes a hit or you fall on it, or it shorts out, or whatever. You are done. With a magazine, you just chuck the damaged one out and throw a fresh one in.

In the 21st, let alone the 31st century vehicle operations are a must. Infantry are hauled around and supported by vehicles in pretty much every conflict we get in, let alone the auxiliary and support stuff. In this capacity, how does it make sense to have a backpack or bag unit? One its going to be uncomfortable to sit in a crowded APC seat with a backpack on, let alone having any cables or power feeds get snagged, and it's not realistic that you are going to take it off for these scenarios.

With all this said however, I do see a place for large (probably backpack mounted) power packs, these would be for large weapons and heavy gunners. And the gunner struggling with the weight of such a weapon would have limited ability to carry reloads. So it would be very possible for infantry men to be running around with their standard combat load of a laser rifle and magazines, and an extra backpack or two for the big gun.

I envision these heavy weapons having a port for these large power packs and also a port for the more common magazines. Much in the vein of the M249 SAW which can either be fed by large belts of ammo, or belts coiled up in a bag or drum, or alternately be easily loaded with 30 round M4 and M16 mags.

There is so much more I could type... but I'll leave it there for now. Definitely an interesting topic.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #35 on: 13 September 2017, 02:36:20 »
I think a lot of opponents of a wired weapon are forgetting the laser rifles in battletech can take two cells. I would go with a few cells for backup and a vest with the cord as part of a single point sling and a cell in the second slot. This way I can disconnect and my weapon still has power.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #36 on: 13 September 2017, 09:13:33 »
I agree with Vonshroom.  Any "reasonable" 31st Century laser rifle design is going to accept multiple sources of power, whether it be quick-change magazines, a plug-in cable from a remote power pack, or a direct feed line from a fusion generator.  The same cells will most likely work across multiple weapons types, and any sane military weapon design specifications will demand that for all further purchases.  If it doesn't accept the same standardized power connections as the other 90% of the military's laser arsenal, it probably won't be purchased for general use, and will require some serious justification even for specialized uses.

The guys in any given squad (or possibly platoon) will all tend to have compatible equipment, but at higher levels of organization, I can see the advantages of mixing basic (and cheap) slug-throwing weapons with a few higher powered weapons within a formation (such as one "Heavy Weapons" platoon of laser rifles or SRMs in a company with ballistic rifles).  That means, in a rifle platoon, each squad would likely have one machinegun that accepts either belts, ammo drums, or the standard rifle clips used by the rest of the squad.  Depending on the situation, in an emergency, the MG could resort to using rifle clips, or the squad could pull some rifle ammo from the MG belts or drums.  In a laser platoon, each squad would likely have a laser rifle (possibly even the same as any other laser rifle in the squad) that accepts remote power packs or standard micro power packs, or could be powered in a fixed defensive position from the fusion plant in a nearby dug-in vehicle or a building: no need to change power packs....ever.  If the power cable is pulled loose or the generator is destroyed, the weapon can at least draw on its micro clip for a few more shots.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #37 on: 14 September 2017, 04:36:47 »
I don't see vests or belts being good options because you don't want something that hazardous literally strapped to your body (What happens if the pack(s) catch on fire?). I also can't see heavier power sources being lugged around by foot infantry unless that allow him to actually threaten 'Mechs because the weight will slow him down.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #38 on: 14 September 2017, 05:14:44 »
From my perspective and current battery technology I don't see vests as good option. Yes, additional "armor" from batteries which are like E.R.A. Basically you have mini bombs on your body only waiting to be triggered. That is definitely not good option.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #39 on: 14 September 2017, 10:45:41 »
I would say magazine style even if it was a reduced charge.  A lanynard from a battery on the body to the rifle is just asking to get caught on things.  Also it will teach the muscle memory in case the soldier has to switch to a rifle.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #40 on: 14 September 2017, 10:59:14 »
Hmm. I remember a neat display at K-mart showing these with an honest laser light.  Picked up a bunch at a Garage sale, including the Rifle, but not the Helmet.

I guess this will swing my vote.



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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #41 on: 14 September 2017, 11:33:44 »
Regarding laser rifles, I like to keep the 80s aesthetic as much as I can, while still giving a nod to practicality.

I figure your average soldier with a laser rifle probably carries a satchel pack with a connector cord.  They might even carry a second satchel on the other hip.  These are high capacity ones, of course.  While a cord might get tangled up, you want your laser guys to have enough shots to really matter on the battlefield.  I imagine the connector cords fit snugly enough that they don't fall out, but they could still be removed if you gave them a good enough yank.  Guys would probably get in the habit of carrying a handful of magazine style packs as well, in case something happens to their cord.

Infantry support vehicles (and Battlemechs as well) should have big extension cords for laser guys to plug into.  Imagine that your Griffin gets legged, and you crawl out of your cockpit to find that an infantry squad is moving in on your position.  Grab your 30 foot extension cord, plug it into a small power outlet near the cockpit somewhere, and plug it into your pulse rifle.  You can take up a hidden position behind your downed mech's arm or something, and you've got effectively unlimited ammo to blaze away at anybody who sticks their head out.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #42 on: 14 September 2017, 14:53:00 »
I like the Fallout 4 style of a soda can sized battery that is pluged in and locked with a quick release lever
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #43 on: 14 September 2017, 16:38:10 »
One major advantage of the magazine system is retaining the ability to ditch the backpack and strip down to assault order with just your webbing.

There are times an infantryman needs to be as light as possible so they can move as quickly as possible. I would imagine this is particularly true when facing Battlemechs.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #44 on: 14 September 2017, 17:10:49 »
Of course, the RPG has one big plot hole.

The Micro-Power Pacts that by weight to power storage efficiency, blow everything else out of the water. 4 Kilo of Backpack Cell? 200 Power Points. 4 Kilos of Micro Packs? Just shy of 4000 Power Points...
I have a fix for that down in the fan designs forum...

reading that.. why do such a major revamp (which would also require rewriting some of the battlearmor construction rules).. why not just make the micro-packs one use disposables? recharging the larger packs would make them more cost efficient, offsetting the micropack's greater capacity by weight.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #45 on: 14 September 2017, 18:31:03 »
Because as written, their power density is off the charts compared to every other model.  If a technology exists that can store that much energy in that small a package, it's going to be scaled up.  Also, I like to blame my physics degree. ::)

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #46 on: 14 September 2017, 18:57:27 »
Because as written, their power density is off the charts compared to every other model.  If a technology exists that can store that much energy in that small a package, it's going to be scaled up.  Also, I like to blame my physics degree. ::)
I can imagine that above a certain cell size that super battery technology becomes very hard to produce, I for one don't want flaws in such batteries. And a backpack of cells, might as well be a bag of single-cell clips. 
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #47 on: 14 September 2017, 19:06:44 »
That's exactly how you scale up battery technology.  You just connect the smaller cells together.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #48 on: 14 September 2017, 19:08:39 »
That's exactly how you scale up battery technology.  You just connect the smaller cells together.
But that doesn't offer an advantage, a set of clips would be more convenient.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #49 on: 14 September 2017, 19:09:28 »
But it does offer an advantage... have you ever had to change a clip in the middle of a fire fight?

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #50 on: 14 September 2017, 19:11:40 »
But it does offer an advantage... have you ever had to change a clip in the middle of a fire fight?
Just read Vonshroom 's post (see reply 34).
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #51 on: 14 September 2017, 19:13:37 »
But it does offer an advantage... have you ever had to change a clip in the middle of a fire fight?

That's why you carry extra clips.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #52 on: 14 September 2017, 19:19:22 »

Regarding laser rifles, I like to keep the 80s aesthetic as much as I can, while still giving a nod to practicality.


I figure your average soldier with a laser rifle probably carries a satchel pack with a connector cord.  They might even carry a second satchel on the other hip.  These are high capacity ones, of course.  While a cord might get tangled up, you want your laser guys to have enough shots to really matter on the battlefield.  I imagine the connector cords fit snugly enough that they don't fall out, but they could still be removed if you gave them a good enough yank.  Guys would probably get in the habit of carrying a handful of magazine style packs as well, in case something happens to their cord.


Infantry support vehicles (and Battlemechs as well) should have big extension cords for laser guys to plug into.  Imagine that your Griffin gets legged, and you crawl out of your cockpit to find that an infantry squad is moving in on your position.  Grab your 30 foot extension cord, plug it into a small power outlet near the cockpit somewhere, and plug it into your pulse rifle.  You can take up a hidden position behind your downed mech's arm or something, and you've got effectively unlimited ammo to blaze away at anybody who sticks their head out.


I dunno. I never carried a rifle. I did carry hand tools and chainsaws on steep, rough terrain. I've also carried lumber and building materials on roofs and unfinished and damaged and destroyed building structures.

We're all, mostly, accustomed to walking around in cleanly designed living and working spaces with doors with handles just so, and stairs with risers and steps measured out just so. Even out in the wilderness, hominids have evolved to bipedal movement over more or less typical terrain instinctively.

A lot of that goes out the window in randomly damaged and destroyed areas. In a ruined building there are about a million and one sharp, frayed, hooked, winding and deceptively thin looking things to hook, pull and tear at you. And a lot of the time, you really want the ability to toss something a few feet away from you in case you fall. Particularly larger things that can bite, go off or start chewing away at anything they touch.

I just can't with the backpack-tethered laser rifle. As a higher powered squad support weapon, like a laser version of the Predator-movie minigun, okay. As an alternative to a flamethrower, sure. As the standard issue weapon of a rifle platoon. I just can't. The magazine-clip energy battery just makes too much sense. That's probably why we have these high-capacity clips. It is clearly in a weapons developer's interest to spend the R&D money necessary to make it work, even if the tech wasn't scalable.
« Last Edit: 14 September 2017, 19:27:56 by Easy »

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #53 on: 14 September 2017, 19:29:36 »
Just read Vonshroom 's post (see reply 34).
And did you read my reply (#1)?  Max flexibility is the way to go in my book.  Why settle for the advantages of one solution when you can have all of them?

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #54 on: 14 September 2017, 19:35:19 »
Going with a mix of both works out in my mind. Larger satchel-style power packs work in a Beta-C or belt-feed sort of way, providing way more zap without needing to pause, but I'd hate to have to wrestle with the power line in addition to the weapon's sling/retention. I can picture doorkickers preferring magazine-style packs for the work they do for that reason. Is there anything in canon that says laser weapons can't have a Shrike-style hybrid feed system?
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #55 on: 14 September 2017, 19:36:09 »
And did you read my reply (#1)?  Max flexibility is the way to go in my book.  Why settle for the advantages of one solution when you can have all of them?
Sure using a support weapon battery for a rifle might be nice if you are in a bunker (aka not moving), but clips are more practical for rifles and not as encumbering. 
I see clip flexibility as: being able to aim you rifle anywhere, divide your clips evenly in the squad, the option to dispose of empty ones for reduced weight, being able to place spare clips nearly anywhere on your person, etc.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #56 on: 14 September 2017, 19:37:49 »
Going with a mix of both works out in my mind. Larger satchel-style power packs work in a Beta-C or belt-feed sort of way, providing way more zap without needing to pause, but I'd hate to have to wrestle with the power line in addition to the weapon's sling/retention. I can picture doorkickers preferring magazine-style packs for the work they do for that reason. Is there anything in canon that says laser weapons can't have a Shrike-style hybrid feed system?
Per the rules, that's exactly what they have now.  Energy weapons can be fed by any power pack.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #57 on: 15 September 2017, 09:52:26 »
This has been repeated over and over.  The "right" answer to the poll is: "All of the above".  Yes, the guys pushing through the rubble of a collapsed building aren't going to want power cables tangling on things, so they use micro power clips, and change them out as needed after a few shots.  Then they get toward the other side of the rubble, spot an approaching enemy squad some distance off, move behind cover, and position themselves for clear lines of fire.  At least one or two of the squad members plug their laser rifles into belt or back packs for sustained fire operation.  The micro power packs were the optimal solution before, but not now, and the soldiers adapt.

Clearly, it doesn't need to be, and shouldn't be, an "either/or" design choice, it should be an "on-the-fly" option, depending on mission, energy availability, maneuverability, and other circumstances.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #58 on: 17 September 2017, 17:37:51 »
You guys are dramatically overthinking this instead of looking at real life.  There's no reason that a laser rifle can't have a magazine and be tethered to a belt/backpack at the same time.  We do it all the time with our cell phones and laptops.  You can even address the snag issue by having the cable have a breakaway connection and a reel that hauls it back in once the connection is broken.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #59 on: 17 September 2017, 18:13:04 »
One thing that is I think not being given maximum thought: where as empty rifle magazines aren't enormously valuable, spent batteries are, and they gain maximum utility if they can be saved and recharged. 

Now, I've never been in the military, or in law enforcement, or in any other sort of combat situation.  But, in the movies, one sees soldiers casting aside spent magazines, and it seems like a reasonable thing to do.  In a firefight, the last thing a soldier has time for is to stow something that has no immediate use to them; they need to start shooting back right quick.

So, if you're a pencil pusher back on Tharkad, and you want to actually get your money's worth out of your rechargeable power packs by making sure they get brought back to be recharged, what do you do?  Because if you just cast each aside after use, in what way are you better off than with bullets?
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #60 on: 17 September 2017, 18:28:03 »
One thing that is I think not being given maximum thought: where as empty rifle magazines aren't enormously valuable, spent batteries are, and they gain maximum utility if they can be saved and recharged. 

Now, I've never been in the military, or in law enforcement, or in any other sort of combat situation.  But, in the movies, one sees soldiers casting aside spent magazines, and it seems like a reasonable thing to do.  In a firefight, the last thing a soldier has time for is to stow something that has no immediate use to them; they need to start shooting back right quick.

So, if you're a pencil pusher back on Tharkad, and you want to actually get your money's worth out of your rechargeable power packs by making sure they get brought back to be recharged, what do you do?  Because if you just cast each aside after use, in what way are you better off than with bullets?
If you win, they can just be recovered and recharged, no problem.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #61 on: 17 September 2017, 18:43:50 »
So, if you're a pencil pusher back on Tharkad, and you want to actually get your money's worth out of your rechargeable power packs by making sure they get brought back to be recharged, what do you do?  Because if you just cast each aside after use, in what way are you better off than with bullets?

You do what the US did in Vietnam when some US Army accountant realized how much money could be saved if patrols did not go out within a round in the chamber.   You issue an edict banning it.  At which point,  several weeks later,  the unit in the field turns in an action report about an enemy attack on the theater's primary ammo dump, which just happened have destroyed the building that all those "saved" rounds were stored in.  Per my old accounting prof who devised the "enemy action", said destroyed building was a 4x4 foot garden shed that according to the manifests held several dozen connex's worth of ammo.  :))

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #62 on: 17 September 2017, 22:59:12 »
So, if you're a pencil pusher back on Tharkad, and you want to actually get your money's worth out of your rechargeable power packs by making sure they get brought back to be recharged, what do you do?  Because if you just cast each aside after use, in what way are you better off than with bullets?

Well no...

Honestly I don't see these laser power packs as being some sort of super-high-tech-whiz-bang-thing-a-majigs. At the end of the day it's a battery. Yeah, probably going to be a bit more advanced than your average D-Cell but in a world of fusion engines, faster than light travel, and giant stompy robots, a cheap, efficient battery is not going to cost much at all. Further they would likely be rechargeable.

In all the posts I have seen I think that everyone is missing the main point. 99% of the time in the military or otherwise you are not shooting your weapon, and when you are, it usually isn't a firefight. Sure for direct assaults on bunkers, and heavy hitting weapons for heavy gunner type units, some sort of massive backpack or even smaller satchel makes perfect sense. But even for special operations soldiers whose literals MS is door kicking, 99% of their time with a rifle is either lugging it around somewhere, cleaning it, getting in and out of vehicles, buildings etc. For the average grunt soldier, you probably are not even going to fire your weapon in combat. So from this perspective how does it make any sense to lug around any sort of tethered or bulky unit? Especially a backpack that would prevent you from sitting down properly, or crawling and staying low under fire.

As pointed out before, I think that these weapon would (and should) be able to run on the little "magazine" style packs as well as some sort of supercorded mega battery for special needs. That would not be all the time though.

Mongoose, to address your point as why not just use bullets? Well a number of reasons.

I don't know how efficient these batteries will be, but I'm guessing that by the 3000's we'll be able to get more than the standard infantry load of today (270 rds), for a lot lighter than the brass cased, copper / lead / steel bullets weigh.

Training someone to shoot a rifle with no recoil, theoretically no noise, and at no cost (as you can retain and recharge your magazines during administrative gun handling / training sessions) would be much easier and more efficient. I think the added money you would spend on the higher priced battery magazines would more than pay for itself in just the rounds fired during a futures soldiers "basic".

The other thing is soldiers don't just chuck their spent mags on the ground and leave them for trash. Most of the time magazines are retained, saved, and reloaded for later use.
But it does offer an advantage... have you ever had to change a clip in the middle of a fire fight?

Battles tend to have lulls and ebbs, its not just like everyone stands around and blasts at each other until their guns (or power packs) run dry. People run, people hide, etc. Sure there are situations where you may be up s*** creek with no paddle staring down a bunch of dudes, and click, your gun runs dry. It's rare, and i'd imagine would be even more rare in the future, but lets say that happens. Honestly, it is probably better to go for cover than to return fire (while wondering why you left it in the first place).
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #63 on: 17 September 2017, 23:00:34 »
And I am just going to say this in a separate post so people can see it more clearly.


IT MAKES SENSE FOR FUTURE ENERGY WEAPONS TO BE FED FROM MORE THAN ONE SOURCE, MAGAZINE, SATCHEL, BACKPACK, ETC.

But in most cases, the magazine makes more sense.
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #64 on: 18 September 2017, 02:12:29 »
I have to agree. Considering how insanely efficient the B-tech fusion engines are, it wouldn't surprise me that their laser weapons had battery magazines that were fully rechargable and as disposable as a packet of smokes.

But having multiple options on how to charge and fire it makes sense.  I like the idea that a soldier would have a hip mounted energy pack and that could be connected to a rifle for longer shots, and when you need to, just remove the cord and go with the magazines.  Or that even a pistol would have a link up so, in the example above of a pilot getting out of a disabled Mech, you can plug in, and you've got basically unlimited shots.

Ballistic weapons would probably almost certinally use caseless ammo and probably be smaller than the 5.56/7.62mm rounds we use today, but have a far higher velocity due to improvements in propellants and ballistics.  Hell they might even use a binary liquid type propellant in a small resoviar in the rifle, using a tiny amount of very explosive compounds to fire a round.  The barrel would probably be some kind of lightweight ceramics with the maximum use of light weight but very tough compounds in the breech etc. 

Sure there would still probably be some kind of AK/M-16 analogue, but front line forces using ballistics would get the space age rifles.
« Last Edit: 18 September 2017, 03:22:30 by marauder648 »
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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #65 on: 18 September 2017, 03:32:43 »
*snip*I don't know how efficient these batteries will be, but I'm guessing that by the 3000's we'll be able to get more than the standard infantry load of today (270 rds), for a lot lighter than the brass cased, copper / lead / steel bullets weigh.
*snip*
Per the most recent table revision, 30 rounds of Auto-Rifle ammunition runs 0.48 kg, so 270 rounds would be 4.32 kg (~9.5 pounds).  By comparison, 270 5.56mm NATO rounds is 3.32 kg, but that's without the magazines, so it looks to be comparable.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #66 on: 18 September 2017, 12:47:47 »
snip*
Ballistic weapons would probably almost certinally use caseless ammo and probably be smaller than the 5.56/7.62mm rounds we use today, but have a far higher velocity due to improvements in propellants and ballistics.  Hell they might even use a binary liquid type propellant in a small resoviar in the rifle, using a tiny amount of very explosive compounds to fire a round.  The barrel would probably be some kind of lightweight ceramics with the maximum use of light weight but very tough compounds in the breech etc. 

Sure there would still probably be some kind of AK/M-16 analogue, but front line forces using ballistics would get the space age rifles.

I agree, but the caseless idea is just not something I see coming to fruition. In the 80's it was a novel idea, but I really don't see it panning out at all. The cons of caseless ammo far outweigh its pros. If you are looking to cheap out and produce / implement ballistic weapons in the first place, why waste your time on something that would be more expensive, and less reliable.

One area I do see improving is propellants, as you pointed out. I think that cartridges are going to follow similar guidelines as they do today in terms of how they look, operate, etc, but will become infinitely more efficient. Even within the past few years in the long range shooting community we have seen cartridges like the 6.5 creedmore rise from a barely known novelty to a chambering that nearly every major firearms manufacture is offering. Why? Efficiency. I don't see 6.5 creedmore as the top of the cartridge evolution, and it is silly to think that things won't continually evolve, but it proves a good example of the bounds and strides we have taken in ballistics development within the past decade or two.


Ballistic weapons would probably almost certinally use caseless ammo and probably be smaller than the 5.56/7.62mm rounds we use today, but have a far higher velocity due to improvements in propellants and ballistics.  Hell they might even use a binary liquid type propellant in a small resoviar in the rifle, using a tiny amount of very explosive compounds to fire a round. 

Specifically addressing these two issues...

1. Smaller is not always better, in most cases it is actually worse. Ballistically smaller rounds are going to struggle. The .556 cartridge already has issues at longer ranges, where it runs out of gas, and starts to lose stability due to external factors. These smaller lighter bullets are going to be "smacked around" more if you will by the environment. And when competing with laser rifles, you are going to need all the advantage you can get.

2. The explosive propellant in some sort of a storage tank is a novel idea, but it comes with a lot of built in issues. First off you have a contained system, this leads to little heat exiting the weapon (no brass casing extracted) and therefore will cause issues. It would be possible to outfit the weapon with some sort of heat sink technology, but then you are adding complexity and bulk. If you can't manage this you could end up with the very volatile caseless ammo cooking off in your mag.  Further, ALL of your propellant would have to be burned with each firing, or else the weapon would quickly gum up with junk and jam. Clearing this type of jam would be a total pain in the butt, as well you cant just extract the cartridge. There is no extractor on a caseless gun. So you would have to completely unload the weapon, and then somehow pull the stuck round out of the chamber (Likely with a rod inserted through the muzzle.) This is another reason why having a teeny tiny bore is a bad idea.

It is possible by that time we will figure out how to build some sort of extractor into the chamber, but that creates all sorts of engineering issues, possible reliability issues, and messes with the headspacing and chamber of your gun. (All bad for reliability, cost, and accuracy.) 

Not picking on you or anything marauder648. ;)  I quoted you direct, but this is in response to many other replies. Good discussion!
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guardiandashi

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #67 on: 18 September 2017, 13:02:37 »
with the binary liquid propellant it gets away from some of the "issues" with regular caseless, ammo at least in theory, because you load the "bullet"(often a needle or dart) at least in the fiction I have read with them, then based on the settings the gun is using, range, velocity, etc. it injects the "right" amount of propellant which is similar to a binary liquid rocket fuel aka fuel and oxidizer (typically) then when the user squeezes the trigger it lights it off.  this also gives the advantage that your Lethat gun can also fire rounds of less lethal intent such as ones with knockout drugs or similar.

now I am not going to argue just how effective that would be, but it makes for an interesting story at least.

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #68 on: 18 September 2017, 14:03:58 »
As to the point of training, I think that's undeniable, and something I hadn't considered.  The cost benefits of being able to train effectively for free doubtless more than make up for any costs incurred in casting aside batteries in combat, over time for a successor state.

That said, I would question what fraction of shooting takes place in or out of combat.  Sure, over the last fifty years in the US armed forces (or those of most NATO members, or more or less anyone outside of countries with on going civil wars) there's a lot of training and little combat.  But, I'd bet in 1944 or 1968 (or 1779 or 1864, for more extreme examples) a vastly larger fraction of ammo expenditures were at the front. 

In the 3rd Succession War era, yes there are vast hinter lands in each state that would see little action, with millions or billions of militia drilling, fearful of a repeat of the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars that will never come (unless you're the Confederation).  But there is also constant low level raiding, constant threats of piracy.  Sure, only worlds a jump from a boarder are at risk, but I'll bet the AFFS or LCAF fired a hell of a lot more shots in anger than the US armed forces, both on an absolute level and proportionally, in the 30th century (and a lot closer to modern levels in the 3040s, for example).

So, perhaps on New Avalon each trooper only needs enough batteries for a day's work, and then they recharge overnight.  But, on a place like Malory's World, each needs to be ready for a sustained campaign.  I'm not sure what that might look like, but it's something to consider.

And it does speak to the point that which ever type you might have selected for your weapon in your role (I think the arguments for smaller packs for most roles are persuasive) you'd definitely want adaptors for using absolutely anything, from striping the power pack out of your flashlight to get one last shot for your laser pistol in a pinch, to big backpack sided units for defending key positions with a hail of full automatic laser fire. 
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marauder648

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Re: Small Arms Aesthetics - Laser Rifles
« Reply #69 on: 18 September 2017, 15:04:56 »
I don't feel picked on at all :D Its great insight you've got and you raise darn good points!
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