Omni Pods: cost

[Revanche]

Ok, I'm sure I'm just glazing right over the right section that discusses this, but in TechManual, does it ever explain how to determine the cost of a Omni pod (whether Primary or alternate)? The rules are clear that when designing an Omni-whatever, the base model is being designed, leaving specific space aside for the pods.

However, on p. 285, the Final Unit Cost Formulas table, the Omni Conversion Cost is a part of determining the final price point for the base Omni unit being designed. How are each of the pod costs determined? Subtracting the base cost from each of the primary and alternate final unit costs? And, if so, is this explained somewhere?

Thanks.

[pheonixstorm]

individual pod costs are in Strat Ops iirc

[Revanche]

SO, p. 180 (under "STOCKPILES, BUYING AND SELLING OPTIONAL"):

Omnis: Equipment and ammunition to be installed on an OmniMech,
OmniFighter or OmniVehicle receives an additional cost
multiplier of 1.25. Weapons and equipment have been specially
adapted and cannot be used on non-Omni units, but ammunition
can be loaded into a non-Omni unit.

It's a start towards resolving how much individual pods cost, except then it bypasses the final unit modifier (the one based on the unit's tonnage). I've always taken this to be the 'production cost', so it would be far cheaper to produce a pod, as it only assumes the omni conversion cost, not both (like the base unit, and all other vehicles).

Then there's this (SO, p. 189, under "Customization"):

Players can adapt non-pod weapons and equipment by
installing them in an OmniPod. Such OmniPods cost one quarter
of the base cost of the equipment being installed, and
the process is considered a Grade D (Maintenance) refi t. The
time required is equal to that necessary to replace the component
being installed in an OmniPod.

This supports the above, adding the 25% omni conversion cost for the pod, but without the 'production' modifier. So, yeah, the rules seem to consistently support that. Thanks for the guidance.

[Revanche]

Reviewing the StratOps rules again this afternoon, I've come to realize the rules are meant to replace damaged or destroyed components within an OmniPod configuration, not design and cost-value a custom OmniPod. So, for that, I approached it the same way as BV is determined: the Omni unit as a complete unit, rather than base BV added to OmniPod BV.

Here's the custom formula for determining the final unit cost for a new OmniPod: Final Unit Cost (complete Omni unit configuration) - Final Unit Cost (base Omni unit). This brings the production cost modifier into play, just as it is with the base OmniMech (and every other unit).

[SCC]

Revanche, OmniPods shouldn't be paying the final unit cost modifier because they don't belong to a unit

[Revanche]

SCC, if they don't, then they are cheaper than base equipment and weapons that do go through the whole formula.

My argument (to test my position) is that if you built a hypothetical OmniMech that was all base except for...1 ton of OmniPod space, you still charge all that base equipment and weapons with the omni conversion cost modifier and the production cost modifier, but not the 1 ton omni gear (if using the SO repair rules to design a Pod).

For example, 60-ton OmniMech has 3 medium lasers on it's base (1 ton each) with 1 ton of OmniPod space left (extremely hypothetical example here). Those three medium lasers will each pay the results of the omni conversion cost modifier (1.25) and the final production cost modifier (in this case, 1.5), for a total of 75,000 C-Bills. But the medium laser, the only actual Omni-fied medium laser, only undergoes the omni conversion cost modifier. Being an Omni medium laser, it's actually cheaper than the ones installed as base (at 50,000). That doesn't seem right.

Plus the final production cost modifier serves a purpose: it represents the cost of putting everything together into one unit (a BattleMech, a wheeled support vehicle, etc.). The OmniPod, if the repair rules are used to 'design' a pod, doesn't have that cost. In other words, there is no cost to the 'Mech factory to build the complete OmniPod. That doesn't seem in the spirit of the final unit cost formula table, either.

My argument is that the rules for repair make sense for just that purpose: to omni-fy a standard weapon to replace a destroyed one within a produced OmniPod, not to produce an OmniPod itself.  The rules specifically address (as I interpret them) just the salvage and repair of a Pod, but are not meant to provide the value of a complete, functional Pod. The unit they belong to is the complete OmniPod intended for a very specific battle unit.

[Revanche]

[deleted; quoted by mistake]

[SCC]

Revanche, the problem is that an OmniPod can be mounted on many different machine, so while it might have come from the factory on a 50-tonner and you paid mark-up for it being on a 50-tonner, you could just as easily put it into a 10-tonner or 200-tonner, or if you include vehicles to weight range increase to 5 to 240 tons, possibly even more, this means the idea of including the tonnage based mark-up on an OmniPod that isn't bundled with a 'Mech is absurd. In fact it means that when you do pay it for a pod bundled with a 'Mech you're being ripped off.

[Revanche]

...the problem is that an OmniPod can be mounted on many different machine, so while it might have come from the factory on a 50-tonner and you paid mark-up for it being on a 50-tonner, you could just as easily put it into a 10-tonner or 200-tonner,

Whoa...I did not know that! I presumed it was model-based. Is this in the newest generation of rulebooks?

[SCC]

It's more of an inferred ability then an actual rule, but it fits with the nature of Omni technology.

[Revanche]

Do you mean inferred by you, or one of those in-universe text sections that exist outside the rules proper, but provide context? And are there any examples where an OmniPod of one 'Mech is used by a differing Omni model?

Actually, I think I'll lay down a wild card:
 

Oh, mighty Cray: what are your random internet musings on this? In-universe, in producing a complete OmniPod, are they free of the burden of the production cost modifier, or does that apply? And may OmniPods be swapped between differing units, if there is available space?

[SCC]

Do you mean inferred by you, or one of those in-universe text sections that exist outside the rules proper, but provide context? And are there any examples where an OmniPod of one 'Mech is used by a differing Omni model?

Not just me, from comments several other people here on the boards seem to figure things work like that because it flows with the concept. And from my understanding the video games have the stuff function like that. There's also custom configs, if it uses weapons and equipment not featured in a normal config then they must be nicking the pods from another design.

But the thing is campaign play has never really been detailed and rules regarding how customization works beyond it happens never works out. Once you remove a piece of equipment from a 'Mech, Omni or not, it presumably sits in a pile of other equipment that has been similarly removed from other 'Mechs or salvaged from destroyed ones. And you can move equipment from one design to another for normal equipment, the (possible) exception being engines.

[assaultdoor]

Do you mean inferred by you, or one of those in-universe text sections that exist outside the rules proper, but provide context? And are there any examples where an OmniPod of one 'Mech is used by a differing Omni model?

SO page 182 specifies that any Omni unit can use either IS or Clan pod-mounted gear, and that pod-mounted gear may be used by any Omni unit ('Mech, vehicle, etc.). Also, there was that whole scandal about LAW-designed OmniMechs made for other houses being unable to use Clan pods, while those made for the Combine had no trouble with it.

[Revanche]

SO page 182 specifies that any Omni unit can use either IS or Clan pod-mounted gear, and that pod-mounted gear may be used by any Omni unit ('Mech, vehicle, etc.).

For any attempt to use a Clan component to replace an Inner Sphere one (or vice versa), add an additional +4 modifier to reflect the basic incompatibility of the two technologies. Inner Sphere and Clan OmniPods are the exception to this rule. Equipment adapted for pod use can be interchanged with no penalty between Inner Sphere and Clan Omni units (as well as between different classes of Omni units, such as an OmniMech and an OmniVehicle).
- Strategic Operations, p. 182, "Clan/Inner Sphere Incompatibility"

That is an awesome cite; thank you, assaultdoor. I consider that questioned to now be answered. (There is a bit of wiggle-room in here, but not one I'd want to stand on: the rule specifically cites equipment that has been omni-fied ("Equipment adapted for pod use"), but only adapted for actual use in a pod. All equipment and weapons on a base configuration pay the omni conversion cost, but if taken to the letter-of-the-rule, only those that go into an OmniPod may be loaded into another OmniPod.)

Also, there was that whole scandal about LAW-designed OmniMechs made for other houses being unable to use Clan pods, while those made for the Combine had no trouble with it.

I would like to read about this; point me in the right direction? No one in the know has put it into Sarna's article on LAW.

[guardiandashi]

I would like to read about this; point me in the right direction? No one in the know has put it into Sarna's article on LAW.

it was on the writeup on the "first generation" IS omnis from tro3055 basically LAW sold plans to the other houses that effectively had "beta" software and connectors, that would not interface properly with clan pods.  when they actually produced the versions that went to Draconus Combine units they had been "upgraded" to versions that worked, but they deliberately did not provide those "upgraded specs" to their other house "partners"

[cray]

Do you mean inferred by you, or one of those in-universe text sections that exist outside the rules proper, but provide context? And are there any examples where an OmniPod of one 'Mech is used by a differing Omni model?

Oh, mighty Cray: what are your random internet musings on this? In-universe, in producing a complete OmniPod, are they free of the burden of the production cost modifier, or does that apply? And may OmniPods be swapped between differing units, if there is available space?

Er...actually, I hadn't put much thought into omnis and omni pods. Just from a game balance perspective, I'd want to avoid an exploit where pods could be purchased more cheaply separately than with a 'Mech.

[Colt Ward]

Well, that is the thing . . . that 25% mark up is what goes into the mech itself- its not the pod.  Any weapon you salvage can be mounted in the generic pod housing and plugged into the mech.  The 25% cost is the configurable gyro (which makes you wonder why frontline units that get ripped up do not buy those so when they modify their mechs its easier), the universal adapters for the plug'n'play equipment, the rail/bracket mounting systems and for a targeting system able to take constant software upgrades to match the hardware it gets mounted.

So, just like a Medium Laser needs a standard price so does the Omni Pod.