Author Topic: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?  (Read 2760 times)

Red Pins

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Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« on: 31 October 2017, 23:37:20 »
Aquilla-Class Primitive WarShip

Ok, I’ve done the basic construction behind the Aquilla-class Primitive JumpShip to turn it into a Primitive WarShip for my AU.  Since I had to do it by hand, I was wondering if somebody could check my numbers – I’ve always regretted not buying HMPAero – or put it into their copy of HMPAero for me. Please note; this ship carries 30 AS Fighters and 20 Small Craft - these are not cargo shuttles, and there is no DropShuttle bay.  These Small Craft are Assault Fighter/Bombers from my AU, and the design carries a DropShip Collar to transfer cargo - apparently, as long as the ship doesn't try to jump with a DS attached, the ship can have one and this is how it manages cargo transfers.

By the steps, here we go.

Quote
1. JumpShip-P (WarShip)
     Mixed (RetroTech)
     Space – 20 items/Hex facing
     100,000 tons (2400+ HAF)

2. Engine mass - 100,000 tons x 1 x .120 = 12,000 tons
     Max Thrust – 2
     Fuel – 2,500 tons
     Tactical Fuel efficiency - 10 thrust points/ton
     Strategic Fuel efficiency – 19.75 tons/burn day
     SI – 30
     Pumps – 2% - 50 tons
     SI Mass – (30 SI x 100,000)/1,000 = 3,000 tons

     K-F Drive – 15 LY radius
     5% + (3%/LY) = 50% of 100,000 = 50,000 tons

     JumpSail mass (RetroTech) – 30 + (100,000/20,000) = 35 tons
     JS Integrity – 1 + (35 tons/20) = 3

     Cockpit and Control – 100,000 x .0025 = 250 tons
     Crew – 19 Officers, 94 Crew
     (19 2nd Class Officer Quarters, 94 Crew Quarters) – 848 tons

3. HS – 45 + (Square Root of Engine Mass (12,000)) = 79 free HS

4. Armor – Max Armor – (SI) 3,000/50 = 250 tons
     Mass free AP – 30 (SI)/10 = 3 AP x 6 hex faces = 18 AP
     Armor Mass – 250 tons x .5 (Standard Clan Armor – because it’s a RetroTech JS) = 125 AP/6 hex faces = 20 AP/Hex side + 3 free AP/Hex side = 23 Armor Points per hex side.

Total Mass – 68,050 tons (Tonnage remaining, 31,950 tons)

After this, it takes a sharp left into crazy-land, the Weapons and Equipment section we love so much.

Docking Collar – 1 (Justified by being a RetroTech JS, although it can only be carried in normal space, no Jumping allowed.)

Cargo – 2 Bays (5,000 tons General Cargo - one Door, and 1,584 tons – parts locker)

ASF Bay #1 – 30 ASF Bays x 150 tons = 4,500 tons (5 Doors)

ASF Bay #2 – 20 Small Craft Bays x 200 tons = 4,000 tons (3 Doors)

16 x AR-15 – 16 x 150 tons = 2,400 tons
Ammo (AR-15) – (15 Piranha missiles, 4 Stingray each) 198 tons x 16 = 3,168 tons

*Note; this is a version of Dragon Cat's AR-15, slightly lighter than his.  Similar to the canon AR-10, it is capable of firing different types of missiles from a single launcher.


2 x NAC/35 – 2 x 4,000 tons = 8,000 tons
Ammo – (5 Shots/6 tons) 50 Rounds = 60 tons

AA Defense – 60 Large Lasers/120 Medium Lasers (10 Lg Lasers/20 Medium Lasers) = 420 tons

GUNNERS – CAP Weapons (2 NAC/35 + 16 AR-15) 18 + 180 tons of Standard weapons (180/6) 30 = 48 Gunners

Point Defense (No Gunners) – 36 AMS (6/Hex facing) + 24 Ammo (4/Hex facing)

So, I believe the individual bays are the number of Spaces – if I’m wrong, please tell me!  The weapons layout will be;

Nose/Aft
10 Large Lasers
20 Medium Lasers
6 AMS (4 tons Ammunition each)

F-Left, F-Right
NAC/35 (30 Rounds each)
4 AR-15 (15 Piranha/4 Stingray each)
10 Large Lasers
20 Medium Lasers
6 AMS (4 tons Ammunition each)

A-Left, A-Right
4 AR-15 (15 Piranha/4 Stingray each)
10 Large Lasers
20 Medium Lasers
6 AMS (4 tons Ammunition each)
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Vition2

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #1 on: 01 November 2017, 01:58:35 »

So, I believe the individual bays are the number of Spaces – if I’m wrong, please tell me!  The weapons layout will be;

Unfortunately, you are wrong here, every individual weapon counts against the weapon slots, including AMS.  So your layout currently looks a bit like this:

Nose/Aft: 36 weapons
Fore Sides: 41 weapons
Aft Sides: 40 weapons

and each location requires additional fire control tonnage.


As for the rest, there are a couple things missing or not quite adding up.

First, based entirely on what you posted, you are short 440 tons, I suspect these are intended to go to Heat Sinks, but you didn't mention it anywhere.

Second, your first portion's sum is missing a couple items, notably the crew quarters and the jump sail (at least, together, these add up to the missing value).  Also notably, you mention you are using 2nd class officer's quarters, which would be 7 tons each, rather than the calculated 10 tons, and this would probably decrease the crew quarters to 5 ton quarters, overall saving you some mass.  I suspect this oversight was due to the intention of adding in gunners when you figured out how many you'd need.

Lastly, gunners will need officers too, and at the same ratio as the standard crew.


Very lastly, I'll note: I'm assuming the formulas you are providing are correct.  I've based my observations entirely on what you've put before us.

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #2 on: 01 November 2017, 05:52:06 »

Red Pins

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #3 on: 01 November 2017, 10:02:29 »
Thanks, guys!  ...I used to complain about the canon RS being out of whack, before the last fan project - now I understand the issues better.  Ok, from the top, here we go.

Unfortunately, you are wrong here, every individual weapon counts against the weapon slots, including AMS.  So your layout currently looks a bit like this:

Nose/Aft: 36 weapons
Fore Sides: 41 weapons
Aft Sides: 40 weapons

and each location requires additional fire control tonnage.

Dang.  Ok, I deliberately saved tonnage in the form of cargo for just this particular goof, so I can figure this out later.

As for the rest, there are a couple things missing or not quite adding up.

First, based entirely on what you posted, you are short 440 tons, I suspect these are intended to go to Heat Sinks, but you didn't mention it anywhere.

Second, your first portion's sum is missing a couple items, notably the crew quarters and the jump sail (at least, together, these add up to the missing value).  Also notably, you mention you are using 2nd class officer's quarters, which would be 7 tons each, rather than the calculated 10 tons, and this would probably decrease the crew quarters to 5 ton quarters, overall saving you some mass.  I suspect this oversight was due to the intention of adding in gunners when you figured out how many you'd need.

Lastly, gunners will need officers too, and at the same ratio as the standard crew.

Argh.  After Weapons and Equip, my figures show 1,014 tons remaining, of which an additional 930 Heatsinks are added to remain heat neutral when everything fires.  The remaining 84 tons were added to the second cargo bay (Parts locker). 

The base crew and gunners together added to 113; from there, I divided by 6, and got 18.(something), so 19 Officers, and subtracted the 19 officers from the 113.  Should I have ADDED those 19 officers instead?  I think that's the goof up.

I'll re-do the calc sheets, and go back over the numbers.  Its a matter of pride to at least get it right before writing about it, by this point.

You tried using CryHavok's Warship Calculator?
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56111.msg1299699#msg1299699

ARGH!  ...I collect fan projects, and just finished moving them to disk- and cloud back-ups - I'll bet I already have it.  Thanks!
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Vition2

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #4 on: 01 November 2017, 11:05:49 »
Re Crew.

In that case it looks like you got it right.  I like having the crew and gunners separated, it simply makes it easier to check.  So it would end up looking something like this:

Crew (Total: 848 tons)
19 officers (10 tons each, 190 tons)
46 crew (7 tons each, 322 tons)
48 gunners (7 tons each, 336)

But really, that's just my preference, how you make them in your setting is up to you.

Red Pins

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #5 on: 01 November 2017, 12:00:59 »
Re Crew.

In that case it looks like you got it right.  I like having the crew and gunners separated, it simply makes it easier to check.  So it would end up looking something like this:

Crew (Total: 848 tons)
19 officers (10 tons each, 190 tons)
46 crew (7 tons each, 322 tons)
48 gunners (7 tons each, 336)

But really, that's just my preference, how you make them in your setting is up to you.


Ok.  And I forgot, its a Clan Aerospace setting for the ship, so the crew and gunners are all in crew quarters - looking at my calc sheet, it looks like everyone was mistakenly given 1st class quarters - Officers were to be given 2nd class quarters and the rest crew quarters.
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Red Pins

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #6 on: 02 November 2017, 00:05:14 »
Ok, this is the 4th pass, and I think I got it.  Please forgive the format - I'm working with paper and pen.  Gunners and Officer had to wait until later in the calculations, weapons got juggled, HS got added after the weapons array fit, that kind of stuff.

You know what would be a good project for some AS-oriented player?  Do a construction booklet oriented towards Aerospace vehicles.  I had to pull stuff from IS, SO, TO, and use the Transport Bay info from TM.  No wonder people are turned off of doing this, the layout doesn't make sense if you ask me.

Please note; this ship carries 30 AS Fighters and 20 Small Craft - these are not cargo shuttles, and there is no DropShuttle bay.  These Small Craft are Assault Fighter/Bombers from my AU, and the design carries a DropShip Collar to transfer cargo - apparently, as long as the ship doesn't try to jump with a DS attached, the ship can have one and this is how it manages cargo transfers.


Quote
Kraken Primitive WarShip

Ok, I’ve done the basic construction behind the Aquilla-class Primitive JumpShip to turn it into a Primitive WarShip for my AU.  Since I had to do it by hand, I was wondering if somebody could check my numbers – I’ve always regretted not buying HMPAero – or put it into their copy of HMPAero for me.

By the steps, here we go.

1. JumpShip-P (WarShip)
     Mixed (RetroTech)
     Space – 20 items/Hex facing
     100,000 tons (2400+ HAF)

2. Engine mass - 100,000 tons x 1 x .120 = 12,000 tons
     Max Thrust – 2
     Fuel – 2,500 tons
     Tactical Fuel efficiency - 10 thrust points/ton
     Strategic Fuel efficiency – 19.75 tons/burn day
     SI – 30
     Pumps – 2% - 50 tons
     SI Mass – (30 SI x 100,000)/1,000 = 3,000 tons

     K-F Drive – 15 LY radius
     5% + (3%/LY) = 50% of 100,000 = 50,000 tons

     JumpSail mass (Retrotech) – 30 + (100,000/20,000) = 35 tons
     JS Integrity – 1 + (35 tons/20) = 3

     Cockpit and Control – 100,000 x .0025 = 250 tons
     Crew – 16 Officers, 28 Gunners, 65 Crew
     (109 x 7 tons (2nd Class Officer Quarters) = 763 tons

        (Gunners – CAP Weapons (2 NAC/35 + 16 AR-15) 18 + (60 Standard weapons/6 =) 10 = 28 Gunners
     Officers (65 + 28 = 93/6, rounded up) = 16 Officers


3. HS – 45 + (Square Root of Engine Mass - 12,000) = 154 free HS
     Added HS – 902 HS (902 x 1 ton) = 902 tons

4. Armor – Max Armor – (SI) 3,000/50 = 250 tons
     Mass free AP – 30 (SI)/10 = 3 AP Hex face
     Armor Mass – 250 tons x .5 (Standard Clan Armor – because it’s a RetroTech JS) = 125 AP/6 hex faces = 20 AP/Hex side + 3 free AP/Hex side = 23 Armor Points per hex side.

Total Mass – 68,085 tons (Tonnage remaining, 31,915 tons)


After this, it takes a sharp left into crazy-land, the Weapons and Equipment section we love so much.

Docking Collar – 1 (Justified by being a RetroTech JS, although it can only be carried in normal space, no Jumping allowed.)

Cargo – 2 Bays (4,280 tons General Cargo - one Door, and 1,500 tons – parts locker)

ASF Bay #1 – 30 ASF Bays x 150 tons = 4,500 tons (5 Doors)

ASF Bay #2 – 20 Small Craft Bays x 200 tons = 4,000 tons (3 Doors)

16 x AR-15 – 16 x 150 tons = 2,400 tons
Ammo (AR-15) – (15 Piranha missiles, 4 Stingray each) 198 tons.  (2400 + (198 x 16) = 5,568 tons

*Note; this is a version of Dragon Cat's AR-15, slightly lighter than his that uses heat from the largest possible Sub-Cap missile to calculate max heat here.  It uses the appropriate heat from whatever missile launched like the canon AR-10.  Similar to the canon AR-10, it is capable of firing different types of missiles from a single launcher.


2 x NAC/35 – 2 x 4,000 tons = 8,000 tons
Ammo – (5 Shots/6 tons) 50 Rounds = 60 tons (8,000 + 60 = 8,060 tons)

AA Defense – 60 Large Lasers (10 Lg Lasers/Hex facing) = 300 tons
     Point Defense (No Gunners) – 36 AMS (6/Hex facing) + 24 Ammo (4/Hex facing) = 42 tons
Grav Deck – 2 250-m Grav Decks (500 tons x 2= 1,000 tons)

The weapons layout will be;

Nose/Aft
10 Large Lasers
6 AMS (4 tons Ammunition each)

F-Left, F-Right
NAC/35 (30 Rounds each)
4 AR-15 (15 Piranha/4 Stingray each)
10 Large Lasers
6 AMS (4 tons Ammunition each)

A-Left, A-Right
4 AR-15 (15 Piranha/4 Stingray each)
10 Large Lasers
6 AMS (4 tons Ammunition each)


So, have I gotten it right this time?  Any comments?
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #7 on: 02 November 2017, 00:33:54 »
I can't remember if primitive JumpShips use the JumpShip or WarShip weapons limit (I believe the former), but either way you'll have fire control tonnage for the fore-sides.
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Red Pins

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #8 on: 02 November 2017, 00:57:56 »
I can't remember if primitive JumpShips use the JumpShip or WarShip weapons limit (I believe the former), but either way you'll have fire control tonnage for the fore-sides.

They're built using the WarShip limits - 20 per hex facing.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #9 on: 02 November 2017, 01:24:03 »
Still has 21 weapons in the fore-sides.
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Red Pins

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #10 on: 02 November 2017, 01:37:11 »
What?  Point Defense wasn't counted, I thought?  I'll check into it tomorrow.  The number is probably overkill, anyway - I only added so many AMS because the New Clans believe in nuclear-missile overkill launched by Small Craft Fighter-Bombers.

*edit - nevermind, roosterboy'd.
« Last Edit: 02 November 2017, 01:52:40 by Red Pins »
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #11 on: 02 November 2017, 01:45:08 »
Point defense (specifically AMS) counts for fire control tonnage, but not for crew.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Vition2

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #12 on: 02 November 2017, 01:45:24 »
Yeah, unfortunately for weapon slots, AMS do count.

They don't when it comes to gunners though.

Red Pins

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #13 on: 02 November 2017, 01:54:01 »
RE-reading it, it specifically says it doesn't affect Cap missiles, darn it.  So, how could I shoot down in incoming nuke?

*edit - Wait, what about this blub from the Sarna Arondight entry regarding how Cap missiles were shot down?

Quote
Arondight SCC
Developed during the Jihad in 3077[3] the large number of anti-missile systems present in a space battle rendered most of the Capital Missile launchers used by the AFFS forces useless. During the assault on Towne the FSS Indefatigable was destroyed by heavy sub-capital cannon fire from two Blakist Pocket WarShips. The missiles fired by the Kraken-T and AR-10 were destroyed before they even reached the Blakist vessels. In response Federated-Boeing removed the Kraken launcher and replaced it with three Heavy Sub-Capital Cannon. The AR-10 launchers were replaced with a quartet of Light Sub-Capital Cannons. This direct firepower wasn't subject to interception, and proved to be much more effective in combat.[4]. BV (2.0) = 29,120[4][3]
« Last Edit: 02 November 2017, 01:59:15 by Red Pins »
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #14 on: 02 November 2017, 02:02:48 »
RE-reading it, it specifically says it doesn't affect Cap missiles, darn it.  So, how could I shoot down in incoming nuke?

*edit - Wait, what about this blub from the Sarna Arondight entry regarding how Cap missiles were shot down?

AMS engaging capital missiles is an advanced rule tucked away in Strategic operations with the rest of the warship stuff.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Red Pins

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #15 on: 02 November 2017, 02:14:26 »
AMS engaging capital missiles is an advanced rule tucked away in Strategic operations with the rest of the warship stuff.

Sorry, got a page and heading for that?  I'll never find it.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #16 on: 02 November 2017, 02:20:51 »
Sorry, got a page and heading for that?  I'll never find it.

Page 96: Advanced Point Defense Weapons
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Red Pins

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #17 on: 02 November 2017, 08:27:18 »
Thanks, there’s so much I don’t know it’s not funny.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #18 on: 02 November 2017, 23:37:25 »
Always happy to help.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Red Pins

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Re: Can I get a hand with this Primitive JumpShip, please?
« Reply #19 on: 03 November 2017, 09:19:03 »
I'm sure there are more mistakes - but this is good enough to write the fiction.
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