Author Topic: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?  (Read 11002 times)

Frabby

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Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« on: 06 November 2017, 01:56:25 »
The master quirk list in the BattleMech Manual does not assign the "Bad Reputation" quirk to the Rifleman. But I do distinctively remember that something to this effect was officially/canonically said... somewhere.
I believe it was a set of Random Allocation Tables where the Rifleman was treated as an ill-reputed design that A-rated units could reroll or something.

Am I remembering right? Can someone point me to where I read this?
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #1 on: 06 November 2017, 03:21:18 »
not sure it was a RAT mechanic that caused it, so much as every time a rifleman has appeared in the fiction (novels or short stories) it has been largely derided by characters for its heat issues and thin rear armor.  many players hold the view as well, in a rare case where the in universe and out of universe opinions match up.

Xotl

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #2 on: 06 November 2017, 03:36:10 »
You're talking about my RATs.  There was no canon marking on it, though; it was just sort of an obvious addition for the time periods my RATs covered, so you're misremembering there.  The re-rolling for A- and B-rated units is right, though.

The BMM doesn't give the Rifleman that quirk because not all models would have it (which is the requirement for assigning any quirk in the Manual).  The Rifleman eventually gets good.
« Last Edit: 06 November 2017, 12:59:43 by Xotl »
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #3 on: 06 November 2017, 09:18:33 »
Perhaps you were thinking of the Blackjack instead? Pretty sure the original 3025 TRO had this.

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #4 on: 06 November 2017, 10:22:23 »
The Rifleman wasn't considered to be a bad design (particularly for AA work), but it was acknowledged that its performance against other 'Mechs had some issues.  The problem comes in with fielding what was intended as a support unit directly on the front line when you can't get an actual front line unit, as was the case in the Succession Wars.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #5 on: 06 November 2017, 10:23:57 »
'Dying faster than a backshot Rifleman' is an in-universe idiom.  Possibly created by Stackpole; I don't recall in which novel(s) this idiom can be found.
« Last Edit: 06 November 2017, 10:25:40 by Tai Dai Cultist »

snewsom2997

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #6 on: 06 November 2017, 11:14:43 »
Rifleman Battlemechs are supposed to be in the back, shooting flying stuff. During the SW's, like many specialist designs they ended up being dragooned for more general front line use. That bad reputation doesn't come from being poorly designed, it is a great AAA mech, the bad reputation is because it was being used for what it was not designed for, like scouting, or alongside Warhammers and Thunderbolts slugging it out in cities.

guardiandashi

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #7 on: 06 November 2017, 13:30:52 »
as others have said the rifleman doesn't really have a bad rep per say as a design issue, its more that people who understand the ins and outs of battlemechs acknowledge its flaws and limitations.  the people who claim its a bad design aren't taking its limitations into account properly.

the root "flaw" is that it has too much emphasis on long ranged firepower and everything else is secondary to that.
the "stock" rifleman has 29 tons of a 60 ton mech dedicated to weapons with no weight saving technologies.  Seriously how can that not end up as a compromised design?

Alexander Knight

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #8 on: 06 November 2017, 13:32:15 »
The Rifleman is for those of us who know how to and enjoy riding the heat curve.  ;)

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #9 on: 06 November 2017, 14:01:10 »
The Rifleman is for those of us who know how to and enjoy riding the heat curve.  ;)

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #10 on: 06 November 2017, 22:01:13 »
A friend of mine once survived an ammo explosion in a Rifleman... He's never thought it was a bad design since then...

TigerShark

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #11 on: 06 November 2017, 22:43:26 »
Rifleman Battlemechs are supposed to be in the back, shooting flying stuff. During the SW's, like many specialist designs they ended up being dragooned for more general front line use. That bad reputation doesn't come from being poorly designed, it is a great AAA mech, the bad reputation is because it was being used for what it was not designed for, like scouting, or alongside Warhammers and Thunderbolts slugging it out in cities.
It's one of the worst AA 'Mechs. What Aero would seriously be threatened by that thing? :-\ Two AC/5 shooting Flak would do an average of 3 + 3 damage. And it could only sustain that rate of fire for 10 turns. A lot of fighters could do 5x that damage in a single pass.
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #12 on: 06 November 2017, 22:57:55 »
Raw damage is the single least important part of anti-aircraft operations in BattleTech.
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #13 on: 06 November 2017, 23:38:30 »
Raw damage is the single least important part of anti-aircraft operations in BattleTech.

If that's the case, then anything with an AC/2 is a "great Anti-Aircraft unit." i.e.: VL-2T, BJ-1, etc. Also assumes your opponent is crazy enough to play with the "lawn dart" rules.
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William J. Pennington

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #14 on: 06 November 2017, 23:50:58 »
"Pfffft. I'll run the ammo bin dry  explode before the heat causes problems anyway."

edited for real life experience.

William J. Pennington

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #15 on: 06 November 2017, 23:53:17 »
It's one of the worst AA 'Mechs. What Aero would seriously be threatened by that thing? :-\ Two AC/5 shooting Flak would do an average of 3 + 3 damage. And it could only sustain that rate of fire for 10 turns. A lot of fighters could do 5x that damage in a single pass.

Rules for fire against fighters, or heck..rules for  fighters weren't even a glint in the eye of the writers when the Rifleman was designed.

Alexander Knight

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #16 on: 07 November 2017, 00:27:22 »
"Pfffft. I'll run the ammo bin dry before the heat causes problems anyway."

Exactly!  ;D

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #17 on: 07 November 2017, 00:50:18 »
The early Rifleman is a niche mech, not to terrible when you can field allot of mechs but it's weaknesses become allot more noticeable when it's one of the a hand full of heavies you are most likely to see in the SW era. Luckily the Rifleman got beefed up with new tech so you don't need to be the Legend Killer or Justin Allard to make it look good.   
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #18 on: 07 November 2017, 01:19:12 »
The early Rifleman is a niche mech, not to terrible when you can field allot of mechs but it's weaknesses become allot more noticeable when it's one of the a hand full of heavies you are most likely to see in the SW era. Luckily the Rifleman got beefed up with new tech so you don't need to be the Legend Killer or Justin Allard to make it look good.   

Thing is, the superior Rifleman already existed -- It was called the Galahad GLH-1D. And, actually, the RFL-1N and -2N are better than the -3N by leaps and bounds. (Talking about canon designs during the SL period). I would take two PPCs for anti-aircraft any day over AC/5 flak. They'd have a chance to threshold the avionics, engine, possibly the fuel tank, etc.
« Last Edit: 07 November 2017, 02:48:54 by TigerShark »
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #19 on: 07 November 2017, 10:33:43 »
You're ignoring the other half of the Rifleman's armament.  The twin Large Lasers are capable of exceeding the damage thresholds on most fighters, and the AC/5s add in two more chances to inflict "lawn dart" checks (or more with Flak ammo).

Having more weapons and insufficient heat sinks is a problem in 'Mech versus 'Mech combat, where you're firing your weapons every turn, but not for an AA unit.  So what if it builds 18 heat and you can only dissipate 10?  You've got another 3 turns to shed that heat before the ASF comes back for another pass.  More guns instead of heat sinks gives you a better chance to do serious damage (potentially up to 26 in this case) in the brief moments when you DO have a shot, because if you don't pose a credible threat, that fighter is coming back for another pass, and another, and another.

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #20 on: 07 November 2017, 10:40:11 »
You're ignoring the other half of the Rifleman's armament.  The twin Large Lasers are capable of exceeding the damage thresholds on most fighters, and the AC/5s add in two more chances to inflict "lawn dart" checks (or more with Flak ammo).

Having more weapons and insufficient heat sinks is a problem in 'Mech versus 'Mech combat, where you're firing your weapons every turn, but not for an AA unit.  So what if it builds 18 heat and you can only dissipate 10?  You've got another 3 turns to shed that heat before the ASF comes back for another pass.  More guns instead of heat sinks gives you a better chance to do serious damage (potentially up to 26 in this case) in the brief moments when you DO have a shot, because if you don't pose a credible threat, that fighter is coming back for another pass, and another, and another.
Twin Large Lasers are not a threat. They're constantly firing in Long Range, even at a fighter flying directly overhead at Alt 5. If it's acting as protection for units around it, the LL can only reach 5 hexes away from its position and will, most likely, catch the Side arc of the fighter.

4 (Gunnery) + 4 (Long Range) + 2 (Side Arc) - 2 (Anti-Aircraft) = 8

And that's if you're not using rules for velocity. If Quirks are in play, then you would obviously be using the Strategic Operations book, which would tack on another +1 to +5 for the speed of the fighter overhead. If they're not and you're using Total Warfare only, then it's a 10 for the LL, 8 for the AC/5.

FYI - It doesn't take me 3 turns to send a fighter around for another pass. 1 (if its Safe Thrust is 7+) or 2 turns, max. Unless the fighter is under 3/5 speed, which is almost impossible unless you're purposely using the primitive Bomber.
« Last Edit: 07 November 2017, 10:55:17 by TigerShark »
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #21 on: 07 November 2017, 11:49:48 »
If that's the case, then anything with an AC/2 is a "great Anti-Aircraft unit." i.e.: VL-2T, BJ-1, etc. Also assumes your opponent is crazy enough to play with the "lawn dart" rules.

I know you were trying to post this with some combination of derision and sarcasm, but that's exactly the case.

I generally assume my opponents play by the rules in the book, yes.  Seems like a pretty important thing to do.
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #22 on: 07 November 2017, 12:38:38 »
I know you were trying to post this with some combination of derision and sarcasm, but that's exactly the case.

I generally assume my opponents play by the rules in the book, yes.  Seems like a pretty important thing to do.

QFT.  For antiaircraft combat, hits are the primary, secondary, and arguably the teriary concern.  Threshholding is quite firmly behind scoring lawn dart checks. 

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #23 on: 07 November 2017, 13:49:27 »
QFT.  For antiaircraft combat, hits are the primary, secondary, and arguably the teriary concern.  Threshholding is quite firmly behind scoring lawn dart checks.

Which is why the LB-5X has become such an important weapon if your opponent likes fighting from the skies. (And why the standard-model Malice is such a scary, scary thing)
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #24 on: 07 November 2017, 14:49:18 »
I know you were trying to post this with some combination of derision and sarcasm, but that's exactly the case.

I generally assume my opponents play by the rules in the book, yes.  Seems like a pretty important thing to do.
The RFL- being a "good anti-aircraft unit" is non-existent in Total Warfare. It's only an AA unit under StratOps rules where Quirks exist. So if you're using StratOps to begin with and have that book, the Anti-Aircraft rules from StratOps would also (possibly) be used.

What nut job would give his opponent a free -2 to hit him, and not ask to receive the bonus for velocity from the same book? :)
« Last Edit: 07 November 2017, 14:52:14 by TigerShark »
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #25 on: 07 November 2017, 20:29:22 »
If the rules don't make the Rifleman good against fighters, then that's a problem with the rules, not the mech.  It's been known for decades that the Rifleman was a great anti-aircraft mech.  The rules should reflect that.

I've actually had great luck with them in lance vs lance battles on megamek.  With 3025 tech, they put out a huge amount of damage.  Park 'em in woods and ride that heat curve.  Sometimes I take two of them and use them to back up something pretty durable that can soak fire for a few turns.  A Rifleman's weak armor isn't much of an issue if they're focusing trying to kill that Atlas.

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #26 on: 07 November 2017, 21:34:03 »
Also assumes your opponent is crazy enough to play with the "lawn dart" rules.

The official rules, you mean.  ;)

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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #27 on: 08 November 2017, 00:02:26 »
The official rules, you mean.  ;)
Are TacOps and StratOps "unofficial?"  :o

Be that as it may, you can obviously play with whatever you like. :) And I'm more than happy to play against folks who choose to field Riflemen!
 
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #28 on: 08 November 2017, 00:49:40 »
Are TacOps and StratOps "unofficial?"  :o

They are optional.  Lawn Dart checks, by the rules, aren't.
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Re: Rifleman: Bad Reputation?
« Reply #29 on: 08 November 2017, 02:02:21 »
Given that the RFL-3N was made by the SLDF, would the original specifications call for a ratio of one Rifleman lance to an ASF flight, or one Rifleman lance to a single ASF?

According to the MUL, a lance of four RFL-3Ns only cost a little more than the Rifleman II. Maybe this says something about the context of the design?