Rifleman: Bad Reputation?

[marauder648]

As folks have said, I have to agree that there's nothing wrong with the rifleman that would cause its legs to seize up or arms to fall off for no good reason.  It was just a rather specialized Mech that was then put into a situation it really should not have been used it.  Its very much a support design, and built to give AA support  and covering fire. 

And then this rather poorly protected Mech finds itself in the front lines, which is probably quite outside its comfort zone.
Its kind of like asking a ZSU-23-4 to go toe to toe with an M1A3 Abrams and getting irritated with the ZSU when it explodes.  And it would have then gotten a bit of a rep with its pilots as a death trap for just being forced to fight outside its comfort zone.

[Wotan]

Most of you don't reflect that the design is much older than any AA rule - or ASF rule.
Twin autocannons that can rotate in all directions sounded good for the writers of the time. Giving the Rifleman a superior radar system was just the peak. And compared to the second AA design of that time, the Rifleman is far superior to the old Jagermech.

Sadly that statement never get a place in later rules. And so the usability of the design in game never got the right place.
I agree that the now official designs of the 1N, 2N or even Galahad can be argued to be better than the 3N - and therefore the old TRO text sounds stupid. But such designs were not in mind when the text was written. So maybe it isn't an error of the old text but the new writers to bring up more potent designs in earlier timelines when the 3N should be the king of the AA family?

[ANS Kamas P81]

In fairness, what were the old Aerotech 1 rules for shooting at ASFs?  That's what we should be comparing the RFL and JM to.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

In fairness, what were the old Aerotech 1 rules for shooting at ASFs?  That's what we should be comparing the RFL and JM to.

Under the old rules SRMs were the ideal weapon for killing aero units (because crits were integral results on the hit location chart and LBXs hadn't been inserted into the game yet)

Even then the Rifleman was fluffed as being an anti-air unit rather than having rules that really allowed it to shine.  Although its firepower to heat sink ratio may have been deliberately jiggered into the way it is to reflect the pauses involved in waiting for aircraft to circle back around.  Honestly I think that's a clever rationalization rather than being the case... like the other macross imports the Rifleman just has stats that more or less match the artwork.  They couldn't make 4x autocannon work, so it's got what it's got even though the autocannons and large lasers are visually identical.

[massey]

In fairness, what were the old Aerotech 1 rules for shooting at ASFs?  That's what we should be comparing the RFL and JM to.

I looked them up yesterday, just to see.

Anybody could shoot at an ASF if it stopped on your board.  Only weapons with 6+ hex range could shoot.  Base to hit was 10, plus attacker movement mod and heat.
If the ASF was doing a strafe (which kicked ass back then) or a dive bomb attack, and you were in one of the targeted hexes, it was -4 for you to hit them.

So a Rifleman in the strafed area could shoot all its weapons needing 6+ to hit.  Of course, anybody else could do that too, but the Rifleman had a ton of firepower for its weight.

[TigerShark]

Honestly I think that's a clever rationalization rather than being the case... like the other macross imports the Rifleman just has stats that more or less match the artwork.  They couldn't make 4x autocannon work, so it's got what it's got even though the autocannons and large lasers are visually identical.

That really sums up a lot of the stats from the "1st generation" BT designs. Their weapons load-outs and heat efficiency came a distant second behind matching the art. Though it would have been nice to have a jumping Marauder, if they wanted to go 100% that route. ;-)

[snewsom2997]

That really sums up a lot of the stats from the "1st generation" BT designs. Their weapons load-outs and heat efficiency came a distant second behind matching the art. Though it would have been nice to have a jumping Marauder, if they wanted to go 100% that route. ;-)

The downside of buying art without stats to guide their design.

They did eventually with the MAD 2.

[Wotan]

In fairness, what were the old Aerotech 1 rules for shooting at ASFs?  That's what we should be comparing the RFL and JM to.

Even then the stats and fluff of the Rifleman are older than that rules. ;)

The only reasonable base for the Rifleman being the best AA mech are the following assumptions, that were never reflected in any later rule:
- It matters to have a superior firing arc with the flipping arms, so you are able to fire at every ASF
  > Sadly later rules doesn't make it hard to find a firing arc against ASF
- Autocannons are the best weapons against ASF with their endless stream of bullets.
  > there is no difference whether i fire a Gauss or a AC/5
- The famous Garret D2j makes the difference! You hit any ASF even blindfolded ...
  > Simple rules answer? No, you do not.

If all of that assumptions from the early fluff had found some mentioning in the later rules, the Rifleman would definitely the best choice out there. As the rules are he is just one more meager design of the early TROs.

[Daemion]

... {L}ike the other macross imports the Rifleman just has stats that more or less match the artwork.  They couldn't make 4x autocannon work, so it's got what it's got even though the autocannons and large lasers are visually identical.

That's the thing. The 4N is actually more like the macross Defender/Radar X than the actual Rifleman with twin AC/10s. The cannons in the arms are more like the twin-barreled AA cannons on warships from WWII - a single support mechanism with ammo feeding into tandem activated barrels. Each arm M-996 Bofors cannon on the Defender is a single, two-barreled cannon.

[Daemion]

Even then the stats and fluff of the Rifleman are older than that rules. ;)

The only reasonable base for the Rifleman being the best AA mech are the following assumptions, that were never reflected in any later rule:
- It matters to have a superior firing arc with the flipping arms, so you are able to fire at every ASF
  > Sadly later rules doesn't make it hard to find a firing arc against ASF
- Autocannons are the best weapons against ASF with their endless stream of bullets.
  > there is no difference whether i fire a Gauss or a AC/5
- The famous Garret D2j makes the difference! You hit any ASF even blindfolded ...
  > Simple rules answer? No, you do not.

If all of that assumptions from the early fluff had found some mentioning in the later rules, the Rifleman would definitely the best choice out there. As the rules are he is just one more meager design of the early TROs.

They started to in Maximum Tech, although they might have in the Tactical Handbook. Don't know about the latter, so I'll have to look. Anyone, feel free to beat me to it.

But, in MaxTech, they added alternative targeting systems, one of which was an anti-aircraft system, obviously meant to be put in a Rifleman. Throw in a long range module, and it would be a beast against fighter craft at long range, but suffer ridiculously against even any bug scout up close.

[brother elf]

They started to in Maximum Tech, although they might have in the Tactical Handbook. Don't know about the latter, so I'll have to look. Anyone, feel free to beat me to it.

Nope, as far as I can tell from the ToC, THB didn't have specialised targetting systems, nor any kind of AA ammo, or anything along those lines, so I guess that started with MaxTech 1.

[Hammerpilot IIC]

Given that the RFL-3N was made by the SLDF, would the original specifications call for a ratio of one Rifleman lance to an ASF flight, or one Rifleman lance to a single ASF?

The SLDF would have had a company of Riflemen at a time. THAT would be a wall o' flak. One of the Royal regiments would be even scarier...

[SteelRaven]

You also got to keep in mind that 'reputation' has little to do with actual performance. The Wolf Trap was a bad rep for a flaw that never appears on the stat sheets and the Gotterdammerung's rep is almost comical compared to others mechs with similar fluff like the Black Knight.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The BMM doesn't give the Rifleman that quirk because not all models would have it (which is the requirement for assigning any quirk in the Manual).  The Rifleman eventually gets good.

Was that changed from the Beta when the Banshee has Bad Reputation for pre-Clan Invasion eras only?

[JadeHellbringer]

Was that changed from the Beta when the Banshee has Bad Reputation for pre-Clan Invasion eras only?

That's a fair point (I don't have an answer though, up front). Designs may not have the same reputation in one era as they do in another. 3rd Succession War? Yeah, Riflemans are probably viewed as hot-running junk by most commanders having to throw old 3Ns into the meat grinder. By the end of the Civil War? I'll bet there's not near as many complaints about 8Ds being put into frontline forces.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Pretty much anything intro tech would arguably be "bad reputation" after 3050.  It might even be a place to begin addressing in-universe costs of equipment on BattleTech's tech treadmill, if one were to test one's sanity at such a task.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I doubt it.  Even during the Fed-Com Civil War there were still plenty of mechwarriors who preferred older, proven tech to the sometimes finicky newer stuff, especially when it came to things like fragile XL engines and hot ER lasers.

[Major Headcase]

I'm painting up a converted Rifleman right now for a 4th SW Merc unit. Being a Merc unit the choice of mechs is haphazard at best and niche mechs can leave holes in your battle line. I made mine the 3C variant and just ignored the AA origins of the mech. It's still less than an optimal brawler, but the twin AC/10s and extra Armor do help it fight alongside the units Warhammer and Archer 2K (another decent variant that moves a mech from niche to general purpose).
And hard luck mercs can't afford to be picky. 😉

[Xotl]

Was that changed from the Beta when the Banshee has Bad Reputation for pre-Clan Invasion eras only?

Most of those limited quirks were purged from the beta to the final.  A couple though still remain, at the behest of one dev or another (like the Banshee note).  Another would be the Grand Dragon, which is noted as universally having Extended Torso Twist when I think it only had that in machines built from 3070 onwards.

[massey]

I think two things are making people think the Rifleman is a piece of crap, but in universe those two things would be much less of an issue.

1)  At 60 tons, the Rifleman is a heavy mech.  And so when you compare it to other heavies, it kinda sucks.  I know if you gave me the choice between a Thunderbolt and a Rifleman, that's no choice at all.  Take the T-bolt every time.  But in universe, those distinctions (particularly in edge cases) wouldn't be as important.  Compare it to mechs like the Trebuchet (the Rifleman has equal armor to the 5N, half a ton less than the 5J, and a lot more firepower).  It has 1T less armor than the Centurion, but more firepower.  If you think of it as a lightweight heavy, yeah it's thin on protection.  If you think of it as an overweight medium, then it looks much better.

People in universe wouldn't have to allocate more character points to purchase a mech that was in a heavier weight class.  The Rifleman being a bit overweight would be seen as a good thing.  More internal structure.  They wouldn't say "oh, if only it was a medium, then it would be good".  I'd take a Rifleman over a Wyvern or a Hatchetman any day.

2)  A lot of the early mech designs were fairly light on armor.  Compare a Rifleman to later era mechs when FASA and Catalyst started giving almost everything max armor and yeah, it sucks.  But those designs wouldn't have been around for most of the mech's lifespan.  The Warhammer had 10 tons of standard armor.  The Marauder had 11.5.  And these are supposed to be badass combat machines that everybody feared.  Armor was thinner, to-hit odds were worse, heat was out of control, ammo blew up.  Those were common problems in 3025 play.  The Rifleman does okay compared to the non-optimized designs of the day.

--

I've had pretty good success using the regular old 3N alongside an in-your-face mech like the Hunchback, or a fast mover like the Phoenix Hawk.  Park your Rifleman in a good spot (preferably woods with good LOS), and send the other mechs in close.  Your opponent will normally shoot at the target that has better mods.  So the Rifleman just sits there undisturbed and provides supporting fire.  Don't be afraid to go up heat (sometimes a LOT of heat) if you get really good to-hit numbers one round.

[Easy]

cleanup

[Lysenko]

So what if it builds 18 heat and you can only dissipate 10?  You've got another 3 turns to shed that heat before the ASF comes back for another pass. 

I'd also point out that the restriction on not firing on a unit hooked up to a coolant truck is a SW-era oddity. If you have Riflemen at a fixed installation, hook them up to an exterior coolant system and you're golden for AA defense. (Not that we've seen this is fiction, but it kind of makes sense. Sort of like that genius in WW2 who decided the German 88s made great AT guns as well as AA guns. :) )

[Easy]

cleanup

[Daemion]

I'm painting up a converted Rifleman right now for a 4th SW Merc unit. Being a Merc unit the choice of mechs is haphazard at best and niche mechs can leave holes in your battle line. I made mine the 3C variant and just ignored the AA origins of the mech. It's still less than an optimal brawler, but the twin AC/10s and extra Armor do help it fight alongside the units Warhammer and Archer 2K (another decent variant that moves a mech from niche to general purpose).
And hard luck mercs can't afford to be picky. 😉

Was it the 3C that mounted the twin 10s? [checks Sarna] it is! Don't know where I got the 4N from. But, that's the one which matches the Robotech/Macross version better.

[JadeHellbringer]

Was it the 3C that mounted the twin 10s? [checks Sarna] it is! Don't know where I got the 4N from. But, that's the one which matches the Robotech/Macross version better.

Fairly 'eh' design in its day. Oddly, it becomes a menace in the Civil War and Jihad eras for militia, training cadre, and low-end merc units. Specialty ammo and cool-running weaponry (despite the heat sinks) make for a surprisingly effective Mech if you're careful to keep it near ammo supplies. (A quick field-mod to strip the ACs for twin LB-10X and more ammo is just stupid-effective for telling aircraft where to stuff it)

[grimlock1]

The AC/5 LL build -3N was tricky, especially in the MUX era, because the RFL was slow enough and thin skinned enough to make you want to really unload on a good to-hit in a hurry when you got one, because you were almost always stuck behind better armored units that got priority in the formation, and rightly so.

MUX?

And there is a lot of talk about "thresholds."  I aero rules so I'm reading up in TW, but are these "thresholds" something different than the PSR/Control Rolls required for taking 20 damage or more?

[Easy]

cleanup

[Daemion]

MUX?

And there is a lot of talk about "thresholds."  I aero rules so I'm reading up in TW, but are these "thresholds" something different than the PSR/Control Rolls required for taking 20 damage or more?

No, it is not. Aero units have a Crit Threshold value for each location. If a weapon ever does more than that value to that location, you get a chance at a critical hit. Like BAR on vehicles, but it's determined by the amount of armor you have in a location divided by 10, rounding up (I think).

I almost wish this was what they had chosen for lower tech vehicles as well, maybe even following the optional rules for diminishing threshold as the armor takes damage.

[Luciora]

Goodness I missed those days.   Trying to start up Explorer Corps on 3056.

re: MUX, there's a fair writeup here: http://www.combatsim.com/review.php?id=723

Last I checked, you can login to the mekcity.com:3067 server that Marsig, Peter and I set up last year on a lark. If it's up, the simpods are probably working and you can fight some AI 'Mechs, which will definitely give you sort of a feel for things.

There have been numerous attempts to revive MUX, but mostly people are interested in the newer games, especially as we wait on the new turn-based game and rumors of MW 5.

[Major Headcase]

   I was thinking of a simple conversion to the Rifleman to make it more effective in front line duty but still fulfilled it's role as and AA mech.
   How about removing the AC/5s, the ammo, and both medium lasers (19 tons) and adding 2 additional Large Laser (10 tons) to the arms? Then increase the armour to 9.5 tons (2 tons), and 7 additional Heat Sinks (7 tons)? With 17 heat sinks it could run and fire 3 of its 4 LLs each turn without heat build up, or all 4 guns for a modest over heat. It wouldn't need the MLs since the LLs are just as effective at closer ranges.
  I like it because it still matches the source machine with the 4 identical main weapons and no smaller back up weapons, and seems like it would make a decent "budget brawler"?
   Yes/no? Maybe?? 😊