Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion

[I am Belch II]

If the Cadino scene has some big thing to do in Episode 9, I thought the whole Finn/Rose arc was really dumb. It didn't have anything to do with the movie IMO.

Could of done something better with that.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I like the casino city/planetville "sidequest".  The chase in the remaining resistance fleet fleeing and running out of fuel is more of a ticking clock than a chase.  They fit a real chase scene in via the horse-things rescue.  As to whether they NEEDED a chase... I gotta agree that it's a star wars trope by now.  Besides it's fun action.  And if the movie's going to stand on its own as opposed to being mandatory to see ALL the Star Wars movies to keep up, it makes sense to have some goody-two-shoes heroics for the sake of goody-two-shoes heroics from the good guys.  The chase scene makes more sense there than in the ticking clock device.

[Kitsune413]

I think the Finn/Rose arc probably meant a lot to a lot of people who aren't normally represented in movies though.

you also kind of forget that Finn is a child soldier, because he's comic relief, so it's good for him to get out in the world and see stuff.

I'm a vegan, so seeing them free some animals was amazing for me.

I think there are a lot of people out there where the "bug dumb sidequest that didn't have anything to do with the movie" was the movie.

Like... It wasn't an interrupt for me. I was like, "Oh yes. The movie."

[iamfanboy]

Very much these. That whole arc was about teaching Finn to fight for more than just his immediate friends, and about teaching the audience that sometimes risks don't pan out. For at least a few movies/shows/whatever after this, we're actually going to worry that the crazy longshot shenanigans won't work in the end, or that the seedy underworld character the heroes meet might actually betray them. From a storytelling perspective, the entire Finn/Rose/Del Toro arc may have been one of the most important ones in the movie.

I tend to think of stories from an editorial standpoint - what could be done to make this tighter? Does this line need to be here? Could it work better if it were trimmed? - and from that point of view the whole trip was unnecessary. If they had this master codebreaker on board, who was (of course!) willing to help them get on the big ship, only it turns out that he betrayed them and had set up the link that they were planning on breaking... that would still get the same "crazy longshots don't always work" storyline, particularly with the honest-to-Ghost mutiny that Poe incites to get the job done.

Also, making Finn excited for the chance to risk his life to save the fleet by infiltrating the source of his worst nightmares does the same thing...

But that's water under the bridge. I'll treat it the same way I'll treat the Ewoks not being Wookies: A missed opportunity, but a part of the universe nonetheless. :D

[TigerShark]

I think the Finn/Rose arc probably meant a lot to a lot of people who aren't normally represented in movies though.

You mean soldiers who go AWOL and aircraft mechanics? Are those demographics? lol

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Keep telling yourself that's what it was about.

[Moonsword]

Drop the demographics discussion, ladies and gentlemen.  That gets into waters marked as "Here be Rule 4" very quickly.

[I am Belch II]

I'm sure lots of people liked the side quest and others didn't. I just think that it was a big waste of Bencio Del Toro and his acting skills. Turn him into a studdering bad guy, was kinda low.

[RunandFindOut]

I thought it was pretty obvious that the stuttering was just an affectation he was using to put off people so they wouldn't talk to him as much.  My real issue with that sideplot was how hamhanded and obvious the entire thing was, to the point that the first thing you think when he's in the cell with them is that he's an imperial plant and they already know all about them and the entire thing was arranged.  I mean the whole sideplot was so poorly done from beginning to end that it detracted from the movie.

[Kitsune413]

He wasn't an imperial plant...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

He was just an untrustworthy bastard who sold them out once he was in trouble.

[Liam's Ghost]

Honestly, it's the kinda guy you might expect to find in the prison cells of a gambler's planet.

To quote Atomic Robo, "This really was a terrible plan."

[Dubble_g]

- Looked great. Like, really great.

- Too many characters with too little to do

- Does not fit into a supposed trilogy, at all:
* The themes of the movie (anyone can be a hero, we must learn from our failures) are worth exploring, but would have better suited Rian Johnson's stand-alone project. Here, they come at the price of throwing over the movie's shoulder every thread left from TFA (quality of said threads being another matter...).
* Getting away from the hamster wheel of dark lords getting redeemed or laser-stabbed by fiesty youngsters is likewise a good idea, otherwise each movie is going to be like images in facing mirrors, repeating endlessly. Again though, this is a sudden 90 degree turn from the trajectory of the first movie.
* Twists aren't bad, but require build up or foreshadowing, otherwise its just the writer telling the audience "Ha ha, I tricked you idiots!"

[YingJanshi]

- Looked great. Like, really great.

- Too many characters with too little to do

- Does not fit into a supposed trilogy, at all:
* The themes of the movie (anyone can be a hero, we must learn from our failures) are worth exploring, but would have better suited Rian Johnson's stand-alone project. Here, they come at the price of throwing over the movie's shoulder every thread left from TFA (quality of said threads being another matter...).
* Getting away from the hamster wheel of dark lords getting redeemed or laser-stabbed by fiesty youngsters is likewise a good idea, otherwise each movie is going to be like images in facing mirrors, repeating endlessly. Again though, this is a sudden 90 degree turn from the trajectory of the first movie.
* Twists aren't bad, but require build up or foreshadowing, otherwise its just the writer telling the audience "Ha ha, I tricked you idiots!"

That's kind of my feeling too. It wasn't bad per se (I mean it did have issues), but storywise it just didn't live up to being a full chapter. It felt more like an interlude between chapters rather than a full on Episode of the Star Wars Saga. For being a two and a half hour movie, it felt like it could have been condensed down into a half hour TV episode without losing any of the narrative. That's really the only real complaint I have about it, every other issue I have about it flows from that central issue.

[Dubble_g]

That's kind of my feeling too. It wasn't bad per se (I mean it did have issues), but storywise it just didn't live up to being a full chapter. It felt more like an interlude between chapters rather than a full on Episode of the Star Wars Saga. For being a two and a half hour movie, it felt like it could have been condensed down into a half hour TV episode without losing any of the narrative. That's really the only real complaint I have about it, every other issue I have about it flows from that central issue.

I'm looking forward to the supercut of TLJ that's just Kylo, Ray and Luke.

[Wrangler]

I'm looking forward to a youtube edition version of How It Should Have Ended
for the Last Jedi.  This is a funny cartoon how it should ended.

[Kitsune413]

So, what would you have liked them to have done with Finn instead?

[Firesprocket]

So, what would you have liked them to have done with Finn instead?

Worst case, keep him sedated through 85% of the movie and have him wake up toward the end of it.  Best case, something that doesn't involve stealing a ship and jumping off to another sector of space.  I understand there needs to be something in place to make him realize there is a bigger, noble cause then just keep his own hide safe.  However I disagree the whole side quest was needed to do it.

[YingJanshi]

So, what would you have liked them to have done with Finn instead?

I honestly, have no idea. Of course, it's not like they've done much with him anyway. Hopefully he gets to do a lot more in Episode 9.

[iamfanboy]

So. The sneaking aboard subplot wasn't bad per se; my problem is how it started. Not sneaking away and standing up for what's important is a lesson he learned in the LAST movie, dammit, and any time you've got a character relearning old lessons in movies it's dead plot.

How I would have done it:

1) Finn and Poe hatch the plan. Maybe have Rose involved because the plan involves using an escape pod to just drift into the chaser fleet and she's the guard. Have shady guy involved because he's an expert slicer already working for the Resistance as a part-time thing and just got kind of swept up in the evacuation - perhaps he's a traitor already, perhaps he was a freelancer and didn't have time to leave on his own so he's mad about losing his ship. Give him MOTIVATION to betray.

2) Poe, Rose, slicer drift into the fleet. Maybe have some tense moments where a flyby of the pod doesn't pick up anything thanks to the slicer's efforts, maybe have the conversation about the source of the weapons here too. Have slicer reveal the Resistance BOMBER instead of an X-Wing so that Rose has to confront that maybe the Resistance isn't so squeaky-clean either - part of the failure of that little reveal is that Finn already doesn't believe much in the resistance, so why would he care? Focus on Rose's response!

3) They board the ship, and the rest of the subplot proceeds unchanged.

Ten minutes versus thirty-odd minutes. I still think it needs to be there to break up the Jedi training, but it was mostly... filler. I was watching an old MST3K episode (Fire Women of Venus) and that's what it reminded me of: the tensionless field walking and watching dials while they 'fly' to wherever it is they were going. Venus? Probably.

[monbvol]

That would have been much better.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Give him MOTIVATION to betray.

See, he already had motivation to betray: it's called "I'm not getting shot for your revolution."  He was never a part of the Resistance, and therefore had no reason to be loyal to it once things went bad and he was risking death.

[Ruger]

See, he already had motivation to betray: it's called "I'm not getting shot for your revolution."  He was never a part of the Resistance, and therefore had no reason to be loyal to it once things went bad and he was risking death.

Not only that, but he also got paid and got to keep the ship he stole and they captured...and all he had to do was turn in a couple strangers and make sure they knew about a few others...the Resistance meant nothing to him, and it earned him good will with the First Order who look to be the next big thing in the galaxy...

Yeah, a blood good deal of motivation that...

Ruger

[Wrangler]

So, what would you have liked them to have done with Finn instead?

I would like him see him have disabled / stopped the machine Dragged-portable Deathstar Ground laser without mechanic having her do his stupid save him routine.  He shouldn't have tried ran the vehicle into the mouth of thing.  He they could gotten move room, flanked the thing around slow moving AT-M6/AT-ATs and damaged it from the side.

[guardiandashi]

I would like him see him have disabled / stopped the machine Dragged-portable Deathstar Ground laser without mechanic having her do his stupid save him routine.  He shouldn't have tried ran the vehicle into the mouth of thing.  He they could gotten move room, flanked the thing around slow moving AT-M6/AT-ATs and damaged it from the side.

I think he should have gotten off his shot down the throat of the cannon, and it worked, because while it damaged the gun, (the order didn't notice) and they fired blowing a hole in the blast door, at which point the cannon blows up and takes out a bunch of the walkers, reducing the attacking force significantly.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I would like him see him have disabled / stopped the machine Dragged-portable Deathstar Ground laser without mechanic having her do his stupid save him routine.  He shouldn't have tried ran the vehicle into the mouth of thing.  He they could gotten move room, flanked the thing around slow moving AT-M6/AT-ATs and damaged it from the side.

It was stated that it was too heavily armored in the sides and back to be damaged by the speeders' lasers.  Down the throat was the only vulnerable angle.

[Scotty]

I think he should have gotten off his shot down the throat of the cannon, and it worked, because while it damaged the gun, (the order didn't notice) and they fired blowing a hole in the blast door, at which point the cannon blows up and takes out a bunch of the walkers, reducing the attacking force significantly.

But then the Resistance would have had a momentous military victory to celebrate, which is entirely counter to the entire point of the back half of the movie.

[RunandFindOut]

But then the Resistance would have had a momentous military victory to celebrate, which is entirely counter to the entire point of the back half of the movie.

What momentous victory?  We're talking about a First Order that can build fleets and superweapons like StarKiller Base.  That clearly controls either explicitly or defacto a fairly significant chunk of interstellar territory.  Blowing up a handful of ground AFVs and a piece of seige artillery is not a momentous military victory, it's sticking a nail in a descending boot and running while you still can from the giant implacable enemy.

[guardiandashi]

But then the Resistance would have had a momentous military victory to celebrate, which is entirely counter to the entire point of the back half of the movie.

not really it would still been a pyretic victory at best, sure they took out 1/2 of the deployed ground force, which still leaves enough ground forces to wipe out the resistance 10x over.

[glitterboy2098]

I would like him see him have disabled / stopped the machine Dragged-portable Deathstar Ground laser without mechanic having her do his stupid save him routine.  He shouldn't have tried ran the vehicle into the mouth of thing.  He they could gotten move room, flanked the thing around slow moving AT-M6/AT-ATs and damaged it from the side.

did you miss the point where he told everyone that the thing was too heavily armored to attack from anywhere but the interior of the barrel? because "flanking it and damaging it from the side" was never an option. the only way to take it out was hitting the weapon inside the barrel, because everything else was too well armored for the guns they had.

and the reason the ramming was even attempted was because the First Order used TIE's to deter the attack.. the original plan was to attack using the guns, but because the TIE's kept the skimmers from getting close enough prior to the firing sequence starting, by the time the attack run could occur, the attacker had to fly down the beam.
and given how the beam was melting the skimmer, it would have been even odds that Finn's skimmer would have been destroyed before it even completed a ram. at which point Finn's sacrifice would have a waste anyway. nor do we know for sure that a successful ram would have stopped the weapon, either.