Poll

Who, if anyone, should pull double duty?

Only Vehicle Crews
5 (7.9%)
MechWarriors & Vehicle Crews, Excluding Officers
3 (4.8%)
MechWarriors & Vehicle Crews, Including Officers (for admin)
12 (19%)
Everyone
34 (54%)
No One
3 (4.8%)
Other, Please Explain
6 (9.5%)

Total Members Voted: 63

Author Topic: Pulling Double Duty  (Read 3099 times)

boilerman

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Pulling Double Duty
« on: 28 December 2017, 21:44:15 »
Just asking the question out of curiosity - who, if anyone should pull double duty?

When I think of double duty I think of vehicle crews preforming the routine maintenance on their own vehicles and helping out with repairs. Same for MechWarriors. Vehicle commanders and officers would be doing some of the admin work for their own unit. I excluded infantry intentionally. I do not see double duty as a labor pool for working on someone else's equipment, I see it for maintaining your own gear.

Thoughts?
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The Eagle

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #1 on: 28 December 2017, 22:08:45 »
In my personal experience in a US Army aviation command, most of the officers and some of the warrant officers have additional duties assigned to them whereas the enlisted members of the flight troops -- those companies that actually have aircraft in them, as opposed to the headquarters and maintenance companies -- perform most of the maintenance.

That's basically the model, in my head, for how BattleMech companies work as well.  The officers tend to have administrative tasks, but the unsung heroes are the enlisted techs that actually keep the 'Mechs operational.
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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #2 on: 28 December 2017, 22:14:30 »
An interesting point here is that vehicle crews are probably already pulling double duty as impromptu techs for their vehicles, something that MW can't do (Not enough people)

2ndAcr

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #3 on: 28 December 2017, 22:19:26 »
 I make sure all my armor crew have Astech as a secondary assignment. I have roughly 12-16 infantrymen with medic as secondary in each company. All officers have admin as a secondary.

 I like to have one armor crew per Platoon/Lance to have a secondary of mechanic, he might be green rated but he helps out.

 Any Marines I have I will always have them with secondary skills, hyperspace, pilot, crewman, gunner to, in my head, be able to actually take over and crew a captured vessel until I can get it to a place to be properly crewed.

 Trainee mechwarriors pilot loader mechs until they reach a certain skill then move up, they can learn while they move cargo.

 Oh and my true Astechs have a soldier secondary to assist on guard duty during garrison.
« Last Edit: 28 December 2017, 22:25:29 by 2ndAcr »

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #4 on: 28 December 2017, 22:22:15 »
that would depend on the number of mechwarriors.. if you have a whole company you can put together 1-2 tech teams from the pilots, which is probably enough for garrison maintenance work. and the mechwarriors can assist a tech team easy enough, making it easier to get enough manpower together in the face of injuries, illness, or casualties than just the tech team alone.

Nightlord01

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #5 on: 28 December 2017, 23:38:40 »
Too many variables to effectively answer.

However in a line regiment from a Great House or a Clan Galaxy, I'd expect maintenance to be done solely by the technical staff, with mechwarriors, pilots and vehicle crews deal with other minutia involved in running a professional military unit. There's a lot of other paperwork involved, training, a lot of cleaning and some serious levels of busy work. Very little maintenance work would be done by the combatants mostly because they would be highly specialised. You aren't going to waste time training your mechwarriors to be techs just to have them either muster out of march out. Clanner techs are a lower caste than warriors, and I'd expect trials of refusal from warriors who viewed tech work being beneath them.

In a mercenary regiment, being somewhat tighter on resources and money, I'd expect every member to be able to perform maintenance work and keep the mechs/ASF/vehicles running. I'd be willing to bet that there is substantially less paperwork required in a merc regiment, with a more practical approach to getting things done.

For militia, I'd expect somewhere in the middle, with less bureaucracy than a line unit, but more than a merc command, they answer to a higher headquarters after all.

monbvol

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #6 on: 29 December 2017, 00:57:52 »
Just about everyone would have to with the shortage of interstellar transport in Battletech.

Colt Ward

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #7 on: 29 December 2017, 01:08:09 »
Voted Other . . . simply b/c it depends as the previous poster said on the type of unit you are asking about and the equipment.

First, armor . . . easiest call since I operated a armored (hah) vehicle and was part of SP arty.  The crew is the 'tech team' and performs most of the regular maintenance on the vehicle.  Look at BT vehicles and the crew is anywhere from a single person for the lightest vehicle (say Savannah Master) up to IIRC 8 or 9 for the heavier vehicles like Behmoths & Mars assault tanks.  Most vehicles will have a crew of 2-5, which IIRC covers move of the larger lights, meds and heavies (like Po, Patton & Zhukov) which are staffed by driver, TC and then the rest are gunner/loaders.  Each gunner SHOULD be able to service their weapon- which means stripping it, cleaning it, replacing parts and making sure it operations properly so they know when using the weapon if something is wrong.  The driver will be in charge of the whole vehicle, making sure it is in good condition and that the regular & periodic maintenanace is performed when the manuals call for it.  The TC is the one who checks all the work, signs off for it on the logs and oversees the crew paperwork.  One TC in the platoon would be the platoon leader (if available) and if they are not present (availability/casualties, etc) then it would be the platoon sergeant who picks up those duties.  The leader & sergeant are the ones who handle the admin with higher as well as commanding in the field.  Honestly, I see the Zhukov's crew set up a LOT like the Sherman- driver, hull gunner (SRM), TC, MG gunner and loader/assistant gunner . . . and outside of combat that is 3 guys twiddling their thumbs if they are not helping the driver.  It gets a bit harder when you start talking about VTOLs or other small vehicles b/c they do not have those extra bodies.  Conversely assault tank companies should not have a large tech support staff, just specialized mechanic & electronic techs for depot level work- say a maybe a platoon or understrength company assigned to a battalion.

Mechs run into the same problem as the VTOL but multiplied- single crewman for something that could require two or three times the maintenance effort.  With MW IMO it depends on the era & setting . . . for the feudal armored knights that MW were presented as in 3025?  That work is for his squire, though a good MW would work on his machine to understand & compensate for its faults- knowing your tools is always a good idea.  Later settings, when we see something more reflective of our present professional militaries?  I think the aircraft example is a good idea, but perhaps more shades of WWII where some pilots did help work on their aircraft with the techs- either b/c of time crunches or b/c it was their life on the line.  Now days I do not know if pilots do any physical work but they would report faults & run diagnostics.  This also delves into the unseen/unmentioned aspects of a unit's structure that does not make it into a unit's FM listing- who is the operations officer?  who is the intel officer?  who runs supply?  personnel?  PAO?  Each company and battalion not to mention regiment should have attached staff that handles a lot of that work, but officers who ride in mechs will also be holding those slots just like in modern fighter squadrons & armor companies- part of the reason regimental command companies should be in reserve rather than on the frontlines.  Because if it got so bad the regimental CO is firing his mech's weapons, then its really bad.  So during combat operations most of the mechwarriors will either be racked out or part of ops planning- again look at air ops tempo, for example Red Phoenix's fictional F-16 squadron in the ROK.

I would also break it down like Nightlord01 again . . . and mostly agree with him.

National forces will have more tech support than mercs and so should come closest to the 'ideal' staffing level.

Militias & noble forces will have less than national forces but still try to hold to that standard.  For the militia it would be a lot like the current Reserve/Guard recruiting agenda- 'learn a skill and be a solider one weekend a month!'  Great way to become a ICE or fusion mechanic would be to get that training paid for by the militia.  I knew guys who were in my guard unit as vehicle mechanics, were trained in the AF as jet/VTOL mechanics and had got out of regular service to be paid as civilian contractors on base.  They got paid a lot as depot level staff civilians but still got the military bennies by being Guard.

Mercs?  They will have a lot more 'non-traditional' tech support.  Apprentice/trainees, contracting someone from the local PepBoys to provide some support, dependents of crews, and more alternatives all to meet their repair needs.  Honestly its how I imagine most of the merc units in the FMs that do not fill the 'standard' TO&E requirement for tech support on the books actually get it done.  But it will run the gamut- Wolf Dragoons, ELH, Big Mac, and other big commands will meet the same tech standards as line units while others like Wilson's Hussars will be using all the methods I mentioned earlier.
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Kidd

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #8 on: 29 December 2017, 08:45:55 »
IMHO, in a warzone? Most everybody up to Captain. As has been remarked, armour crews especially do a lot of self-maintenance. This would be a lot more common during the 3rd-4th Succession War "Mad Max" days, and in irregular units i.e. bandit/merc forces.

Only Mechwarriors in the most prestigious i.e. well-supported Successor State units would operate like the IRL Air Force, where the officers might conceivably hand off more to the tech crews in exchange for better planning/staff work. Though probably even this will change as the unit gets more and more attritted.

Juodas Varnas

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #9 on: 29 December 2017, 09:42:29 »

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #10 on: 29 December 2017, 13:52:57 »
Also voted everyone. Even the mechwarriors. While they might not be carrying out extensive repairs, I can imagine during a stop they'll be lubing the joints or massaging the myomers or whatever basic maintenance they need to do on a mech. More extensive maintenance is when they pull into the Co or Bn maintnance platoon to have the techs work over it (dunno what the "offician" canon says about it, but I can't imagine techs following around individual mechs for whenever they are needed, but the tech talent pooled together for efficiency & administrative purposes). But also consider those vehicle crews especially will be pulling triple duty...when they're not lubing the wheels or changing a track they're on the perimeter when the armor platoon is in a laager pulling guard duty while everyone else sleeps/maintains the vehicles, etc.

Even VTOL crews/pilots will likely be going over their ride to make sure all the control surfaces work, the rotors spin properly, etc. It's their life on the line!

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #11 on: 29 December 2017, 14:22:57 »
I voted everyone except officers because I expect them to be bogged down with admin duties although in an emergency or combat situation I would expect them to join in and they if the system is one 'Mech personally assigned to each MechWarrior then they would have a role in the diagnostics and checking of the systems but if they are not (as I understand aircraft are for air force or naval aviator units) then it may fall to the more junior officers to do this while the more senior ones are pulling admin duties as operations officer, staffing officer etc.
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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #12 on: 29 December 2017, 18:14:54 »
I voted "Everyone", as those who have been around the longest will know my background is Navy (submarines initially).  The officers may not pull double duty as maintainers, but they'll certainly be pulling admin duty.

The last infantry unit I built (down in Fan Rules) used the line infantry troopers as AsTechs, but fluffed the squad leaders and up as "professional infantry" leavening, and provided enough "Admin" types to support those requirements independently.  I don't take that to mean they have no double duty, though.  Everyone in a leadership job (right down to "Fire Team Leader") has admin to do beyond what every trooper has to do (e.g., Next of Kin/Dependent Data, SGLI, etc.).

JadedFalcon

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #13 on: 29 December 2017, 20:56:59 »
Gonna go with "it varies". In the CCAF, all the mechwarriors and ASF pilots are officers, but that wouldn't exclude them from keeping their ride in working order. I seem to remember Theodore working on his mech in Heir to the Dragon, but he was in the Legion of Vega by that point, which is helps explain why. Then there was the ISF informant in Sorenson's Sabers who worked on their mech despite being in one of the best supported mech regiments in the DCMS, on account of paranoia. The more elite the command, there would probably be more dedicated support personnel. And yet spec ops units operating in the field with minimal support would obviously have to do their own maintenance and repairs.

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #14 on: 29 December 2017, 21:12:54 »
Also voted everyone. If you are doing a Late Succession War Era game, there just aren't enough Techs to go around. Even in House units, techs would really be there for all the heavy stuff, day-to-day maintenance would be up to the MechWarrior and any asTechs. Even in later Eras I'm going to assume all but the most snobbish MechWarriors will want to oversee the maintenance of their rides themselves.

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guardiandashi

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #15 on: 30 December 2017, 00:22:16 »
I didn't vote, but I would also say everyone.

my view is its kind of like an ideal case of the old knights mythos, while the Knight might not be doing all the maintenance on all of his gear/feeding and caring for his horse(s) he is going to do at lease some of the basics, to make sure its done "right" they also would have typically trained as a squire before becoming a knight in many cases, which means in theory... they know how to do it all.

with that said I look at the MechWarrior as somewhat like that, while they may not doo the "heavy lifting" of the maintenance on their own mech, I see a lot of them as being involved in the process.
doing at least some of the PM's (Preventive Maintenance) to at least have a clue what the tech is saying when they report an issue, also it helps them intelligently report an issue so that it can be "fixed" if possible. 
to give a "real modern example" we had a van where I am working I was told what the reported complaints were before I ended up driving it to do a job at another site, and I ended up being the one that took it to the shop to be serviced.
one of the complaints, was "mushy brakes" but when I drove it, I felt like it was more of "excessive play or travel in the brakes", ie you had to press the petal down further than I thought was right before they engaged.

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #16 on: 30 December 2017, 06:47:19 »
I seem to remember Theodore working on his mech in Heir to the Dragon, but he was in the Legion of Vega by that point, which is helps explain why. Then there was the ISF informant in Sorenson's Sabers who worked on their mech despite being in one of the best supported mech regiments in the DCMS, on account of paranoia.
In Samurai tradition, the warrior became one with his sword.  Not taking care of your weapons meant that you were a poor adherent of bushido.  I can see this ethos being applied to maintenance of their mechs.

boilerman

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #17 on: 31 December 2017, 02:38:53 »
Interesting responses, thanks for the input.

I go back and forth when it comes to double duty. I love it and I hate it.

In the real world basic maintenance of armored vehicles is the crew's responsibility, or at least it used to be. It's part of the job description, not double duty. And all the admin a squad leader or company commander does is part of the job description, not double duty.

That being said I think I will go with Campaign Operations 25% rule, which states if you aren't tracking NPCs as AToW characters only 25% of a unit's combat force are assumed to have the skills to do double duty and then only as astechs and admin specialists. I'll use the rule to reduce my vehicle tech team requirements and use regular tech teams to maintain all the other equipment.
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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #18 on: 31 December 2017, 22:35:31 »
One weird thing I realized reading this page: Clanners expect Technicians to repair their mechs for them and wouldn't dream of dirtying their hands fixing their own mech, but if made a bondsman it's common for them to be put to work as techs.
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monbvol

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #19 on: 31 December 2017, 22:55:22 »
I don't think anyone has ever really thought about that for the Clans.

Nightlord01

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #20 on: 01 January 2018, 07:06:15 »
I don't think anyone has ever really thought about that for the Clans.

Of course they have, nobility never cleaned up, neither did the warrior caste, that was for the labourer caste. There are many caste based systems in human history, a few from South America, India, even Feudalism is essentially a caste based system.

The Clans society is based upon these areas which ran a Caste system, the fundamental idea behind this is that some people are just better than others by right of birth or profession, with the Warrior Caste usually sitting right up the top or in the top couple of rungs on the ladder, and the labourers always sitting right at the bottom. There is no way known a Warrior Caste member would clean or maintain their own weapons, it's beneath them. But if their labourer worked really hard, didn't rock the boat, and showed they were intelligent, they had the hope of being reborn into a higher caste after they died. Oh, and in most systems the only way to move up a caste was to be reincarnated into a higher caste. You could marry whomever you wanted, but you married into the lower caste, if you fought off attackers you may well be killed for handling a weapon while you aren't a warrior.

Fun life huh?

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #21 on: 01 January 2018, 08:49:20 »
Actually in fiction we do get examples of a few warriors working on their own machines, though the implication is that they generally do not.  Which sometimes comes back to bite them *coughravilprydecough* when something goes wrong they were not aware of.
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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #22 on: 01 January 2018, 09:05:36 »
I hadn't been thinking of Clanners with this as the roles are so defined by their caste system and as a general rule they don't have the more austere circumstances needing the Warriors to do the work.


Thinking more about the Inner Sphere, except during the Mad Max (film reference rather than Liao), BattleMechs are so complicated that I would imagine the amount of help a MechWarrior would be able to offer a Tech to be limited; I see them as modern era fighter plane levels of complexity rather than tanks. The officers/pilots are probably better off spending their time sorting the supply situation and other such non-heavy lifting things most of the time. Of course, in a mid-battle re-up point they may we'll be helping to rip off broken armour plates and put on new ones, replenishing ammunition etc although they will also have to look after themselves (from the descriptions of most Mechs probably a shower and rehydration would be fairly important).


Aerospace fighters are probably similar to Mechs but tanks and other crewed vehicles I would see as having the crew be first line for maintenance and repair as it is today. Is a tank troop or platoon's lieutenant or sergeant expected to "muck in" with routine maintenance as a higher priority than doing the work that their roles require? (genuine question, I've no idea)
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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #23 on: 01 January 2018, 10:58:55 »
Of course they have, nobility never cleaned up, neither did the warrior caste, that was for the labourer caste. There are many caste based systems in human history, a few from South America, India, even Feudalism is essentially a caste based system.

The Clans society is based upon these areas which ran a Caste system, the fundamental idea behind this is that some people are just better than others by right of birth or profession, with the Warrior Caste usually sitting right up the top or in the top couple of rungs on the ladder, and the labourers always sitting right at the bottom. There is no way known a Warrior Caste member would clean or maintain their own weapons, it's beneath them. But if their labourer worked really hard, didn't rock the boat, and showed they were intelligent, they had the hope of being reborn into a higher caste after they died. Oh, and in most systems the only way to move up a caste was to be reincarnated into a higher caste. You could marry whomever you wanted, but you married into the lower caste, if you fought off attackers you may well be killed for handling a weapon while you aren't a warrior.

Fun life huh?

All of that is well and fine up until the point where Clan Warriors when taken as Bondsmen are often used by their new Clan to help keep the equipment of other warriors in working order and are never noted as having any deficiency in doing so.  Thus implying that they do maintain their own gear.

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #24 on: 01 January 2018, 11:06:43 »
Of course they have, nobility never cleaned up, neither did the warrior caste, that was for the labourer caste. There are many caste based systems in human history, a few from South America, India, even Feudalism is essentially a caste based system.

The Clans society is based upon these areas which ran a Caste system, the fundamental idea behind this is that some people are just better than others by right of birth or profession, with the Warrior Caste usually sitting right up the top or in the top couple of rungs on the ladder, and the labourers always sitting right at the bottom. There is no way known a Warrior Caste member would clean or maintain their own weapons, it's beneath them. But if their labourer worked really hard, didn't rock the boat, and showed they were intelligent, they had the hope of being reborn into a higher caste after they died. Oh, and in most systems the only way to move up a caste was to be reincarnated into a higher caste. You could marry whomever you wanted, but you married into the lower caste, if you fought off attackers you may well be killed for handling a weapon while you aren't a warrior.

Fun life huh?

Just a side note, but the Labor Caste does not maintain battlemechs, they're the ones who grow food or work in factories.  It's the Technician caste that's responsible for keeping mechs, ASFs and other military hardware running, and they're rated as below only Warriors and Scientists in the caste system.
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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #25 on: 02 January 2018, 00:13:03 »
Just a side note, but the Labor Caste does not maintain battlemechs, they're the ones who grow food or work in factories.  It's the Technician caste that's responsible for keeping mechs, ASFs and other military hardware running, and they're rated as below only Warriors and Scientists in the caste system.

I wasn't talking about the Clans in that example, oddly enough, none of the RW examples of the Caste System were advanced enough to need techs...

All of that is well and fine up until the point where Clan Warriors when taken as Bondsmen are often used by their new Clan to help keep the equipment of other warriors in working order and are never noted as having any deficiency in doing so.  Thus implying that they do maintain their own gear.

All of the Clan Sibkin are trained in maintenance during their upbringing, as Tech caste is the go to caste for washouts. They have training, just not currency.

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #26 on: 02 January 2018, 10:29:17 »
I would assume that the bulk of vehicle crews pull double duty, but Mechwarriors are likely to vary widely, depending on wealth and status.  Officers would need to work on both the combat and administrative aspects of their positions.

Infantry may be given assignments to keep them "occupied", and it's not unheard of for soldiers to be utilized in construction projects or other totally unrelated activities.  I would figure on some of them doing maintenance on heavy weapons or other equipment that they operate, while others would be totally dependent upon specialists for those duties.

Typically, in a campaign setting, I tend to assign either astech, medtech, admin, or other points to most of my personnel by the time they advance a rank or two.  Basically, they start out knowing the fundamentals of their own job, and after a few months to become proficient, start to pick up secondary skills.  A typical tank crew of 4 might consist of something along the lines of an NCO with gunner/driver/admin, a gunner/astech, a driver/gunner, and a trainee with gunnery skills only.  One member of the armor lance will typically have Medtech as a secondary skill, and another will be a relatively low-skilled Mechanic.

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #27 on: 02 January 2018, 18:10:20 »
The way I see it, almost everyone.

Part of this is from my Navy experience. The higher your rank, the more admin you end up dealing with. So farm some tasks out to junior guys. Someone to ensure that everyone's training is current across different 'Mechs, another for keeping an eye on personnel issues, the retention NCO, Fitness Trainer, and a medical runner. Just little things so the Officers and Sergeant Major know who can do what jobs, and who can be looked at as a potential NCO/Officer.

Officers would end up ensuring that various tasks are being done correctly, and auditing records for expendables. Each vehicle is going to have a lifetime of service logs, or at least back to it's last depot rebuild. Have to keep current on those.

This would be for any specialty, even MechWarriors. Although only the PBI and tankers end up supporting the mess.
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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #28 on: 02 January 2018, 18:13:07 »
I'd expect that every warrior puts in at least 40 hours a week, if not 60 or 80 or more, even in peace time, so they have to have something to do.  A lot of it is training, drills, exercise, and so on to keep their readiness at maximum.  But doubtless some if it is cleaning, some of it is book keeping, planning, and probably some of it is just make-work (though I've never been either in the military or even military adjacent, so that's more from fiction than fact).

But, as for MechWarriors, they're the feudal elite, so they probably put in their 40 hours very difrently.  I often compare them to pro athelites, so one could imagine them doing things like looking over 'game tapes' (battle ROMs) of units they've faced or are about to face.  Sure, some do work on their mechs, just as some race car drivers take an intrest in their cars, but others just trust it will get done, then drink a fusionare. 

Conversely, in a down an out merc unit, much like a poor sports team or racing team, there's no ball boy, a minimum number of mechanics, and you do the work you need done yourself, for no overtime, because otherwise it won't get done.  So you'll have warriors doing whatever they're good at, being medics or lawyers or techs or accountants or just helping sweep up.  And, since many (most?) mech warriors won't be good at it, perhaps the jobs don't get done fully or correctly, and you suffer for it.

Lastly of course, in any unit officers do double duty as administrators and so on to some degree or another, but I don't think that's in question.
"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

Demon55

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Re: Pulling Double Duty
« Reply #29 on: 02 January 2018, 22:43:18 »
Everyone should work extra as needed but not so much that there are accidents. 

 

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