Author Topic: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?  (Read 16317 times)

Deadborder

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #60 on: 11 January 2018, 16:57:40 »
The Lamprey is my go-to transport VTOL. It's the only good thing the Taurians have ever done.
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RoundTop

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #61 on: 11 January 2018, 18:11:23 »
There is the Hiryo if you are willing to accept a Wige. 8t of capacity. on an 8/12 frame that carries a snub-nosed PPC (or two light PPCs)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hiryo

There is also the peacekeeper VTOL which has BAR10 armor, is from 3021.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Peacekeeper_(VTOL)
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Daryk

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #62 on: 11 January 2018, 18:12:17 »
Aero fusion engines are powerful enough that being able to expend a mere 2 thrust points downward completely negates the pull of standard gravity. Basic maneuvering thrusters can deal with half of that with no effort. It's no surprise that a skilled pilot can pull off a vertical landing or takeoff using brute force, but it's still a dicey thing in all but ideal circumstances.

Even without the interference of enemy units, a regular ASF pilot with a perfectly intact bird needs a 9+ to land in clear terrain without damage. You don't want to fail that roll even by one, because every point of MoF means ten damage, and TW says nothing about splitting that up into smaller groups, it's all one chunk. That means even a minor mishap results in a big chunk of armor gouged out, and since most fighters can't take a hit that big without being critted, anything less than a perfect landing brings a real chance of a critical hit to a major system...such as the cargo bay full of infantry that is your current raison d'etre.

Long story short: If VTOL ASFs rub you the wrong way, don't worry. The risks involved means such landings will be even rarer than DFAs if your opponent is smart. If they aren't smart....that's usually good news too. :)
Which could be easily remedied by simply allowing ASFs and Aerodyne Small Craft to mount V/STOL gear like conventional fighters for the benefit of much reduced chances of destroying themselves when landing (or taking off!) vertically.  I've proposed such a solution in the past, but it hasn't seen the light of day yet...

anastrace

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #63 on: 11 January 2018, 18:43:28 »
There is the Hiryo if you are willing to accept a Wige. 8t of capacity. on an 8/12 frame that carries a snub-nosed PPC (or two light PPCs)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hiryo

There is also the peacekeeper VTOL which has BAR10 armor, is from 3021.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Peacekeeper_(VTOL)

I've tested that WiGE out a few times now, and it's not let me down yet. Can drag along a full assault squad, moves pretty quick, and that snub nose is a nice way to say "Get the hell out of my LZ".
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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #64 on: 11 January 2018, 19:49:18 »
Which could be easily remedied by simply allowing ASFs and Aerodyne Small Craft to mount V/STOL gear like conventional fighters for the benefit of much reduced chances of destroying themselves when landing (or taking off!) vertically.  I've proposed such a solution in the past, but it hasn't seen the light of day yet...

Maybe the rules devs see risky aero VTOL not as a bug, but a feature.
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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #65 on: 11 January 2018, 20:14:36 »
Maybe the rules devs see risky aero VTOL not as a bug, but a feature.
The lack of infrastructure and the amount of exploration in BT makes Aero VTOL quite a design requirement.

However I would accept risky aero VTOL, if the Aero is taking hits during landing, then it is fully understandable.
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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #66 on: 11 January 2018, 20:32:18 »
Maybe the rules devs see risky aero VTOL not as a bug, but a feature.
I certainly hope not!  The amount of risk they put into Aerodyne Small Craft doing this (deliberately or otherwise) is virtually insurmountable.

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #67 on: 12 January 2018, 00:49:24 »
Have you considered a horizontal landing? Or dropping the troops from altitude? Both options surmount this hurdle quite nicely.
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Dark Jackal

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #68 on: 12 January 2018, 01:07:52 »
Karnov's blades are too large and must land vertically. I just wish there was 10 tons of cargo space so that you could transport 1 APC rather than 6.

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #69 on: 12 January 2018, 01:25:51 »
Hot dropping jump infantry from a VTOL or aero can really wreck someones day.

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #70 on: 12 January 2018, 04:21:00 »
Have you considered a horizontal landing? Or dropping the troops from altitude? Both options surmount this hurdle quite nicely.
Sure, but the Mark VII was always intended to do it vertically.  The 3057 version even put tonnage toward V/STOL gear.

anastrace

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #71 on: 12 January 2018, 07:47:39 »
Have you considered a horizontal landing? Or dropping the troops from altitude? Both options surmount this hurdle quite nicely.

Pfft, runways are for civilians and chumps. VTOL or CFIT is my motto.  ;)
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #72 on: 12 January 2018, 08:35:59 »
Hot dropping jump infantry from a VTOL or aero can really wreck someones day.

Hot dropping standard infantry from a VTOL or aero can wreck the infantry's day if you don't tell them first. Fun fact.  ;D
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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #73 on: 12 January 2018, 09:14:02 »
Sure, but the Mark VII was always intended to do it vertically.  The 3057 version even put tonnage toward V/STOL gear.

What about the 3057r stats, which are currently the most accurate ones?
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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #74 on: 12 January 2018, 09:15:19 »
Hot dropping standard infantry from a VTOL or aero can wreck the infantry's day if you don't tell them first. Fun fact.  ;D

That's what zip lines, parachutes, and Ghurkas are for. :)
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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #75 on: 12 January 2018, 09:22:35 »
That's what zip lines, parachutes, and Ghurkas are for. :)

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #76 on: 12 January 2018, 10:08:24 »
I don't see parachuting as a replacement for a heavy VTOL combat transport.

For one thing, the infantry once dropped has no fire support, unlike a gunship/transport hybrid which can at least provide some cover. Even APCs would be potentially ruinous if the opposition is competent, worse if they have hovercraft transports with infernos loaded...with even basic gunship available the enemy has less time to contest and needs heavier response to dislodge troops. Plus, the extra mobility means that if your infantry needs evac or is needed elsewhere, they don't have to huff it on foot or wait for ground vehicles.

The second issue is attrition. You can pretty much expect between two to ten percent in parachute jump injuries, per jump with a combat load. Concussions, ankle fractures and sprains and so on. (Based on various studies and combat drops) Training jumps have about two percent injury rate, in comparison. This is with relatively modern equipment.

Paradrops can also go really, really badly.
During Operation Just Cause (Invasion of Panama '89) Rangers, who can be assumed to be well trained, in full combat load and night took fifty percent injuries from dropping. This was landing on an airfield, so hard surface, which is supposedly worse than sand. Now to be fair, lot of those injuries would not be severe, but that means that even with one in five injuries being severe you have hundred out of your potential thousand plus if you get unlucky if we assume a battalion sized drop.

Even '91 Al Salem, Kuwait combat drop had fifteen percent injured. Again, hard surface, night drop.

Basically: combat loads, night drops, high winds, hot temperatures, concrete and substantial humidity are bad for parachutists. So for planets with high wind, high humidity and high heat, parachutes at least aren't ideal.

No idea on what the injury rate on a jump infantry drop is though.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2018, 10:38:08 by Cipher »

truetanker

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #77 on: 12 January 2018, 15:38:21 »
Karnov's blades are too large and must land vertically. I just wish there was 10 tons of cargo space so that you could transport 1 APC rather than 6.

Then the Cobra VTOL Original is your friend! 14 tons of space...

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #78 on: 12 January 2018, 16:12:45 »
What about the 3057r stats, which are currently the most accurate ones?
I don't have 3057r, but I'm willing to to bet they rely on the StratOps rules for vertical landing, virtually guaranteeing self-destruction.

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #79 on: 12 January 2018, 16:22:46 »
So the most current stats are meant to go with the most current rules, it sounds like.

If you want to use older stats, what's wrong with using the older rules they're meant to go with? I know my copy of AT2r didn't spontaneously combust when SO was published, did anybody else's? ???
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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #80 on: 12 January 2018, 17:30:39 »
Is it so bad to advocate for consistency in the current rule set?  I sent a quite detailed proposal to the writer who asked me for it, and I'm (not so) patiently waiting to see if it pans out.

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #81 on: 14 January 2018, 06:15:39 »
Is it so bad to advocate for consistency in the current rule set?  I sent a quite detailed proposal to the writer who asked me for it, and I'm (not so) patiently waiting to see if it pans out.

How is it inconsistent?

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #82 on: 14 January 2018, 07:56:31 »
The StratOps rule (pages 72-73) presents something that should be possible for an Aerodyne Small Craft to do (i.e., land/take off vertically in atmosphere), but as presented, the rule virtually guarantees destruction of the craft (that automatic damage table is in Capital Scale).  Further, Aerospace Fighters and Aerodyne Small Craft are explicitly forbidden (Tech Manual, page 190) from mounting V/STOL gear because "they already have that capability" (which stems from their ability to land/take off vertically in vacuum).

Nightlord01

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #83 on: 15 January 2018, 02:12:24 »
The StratOps rule (pages 72-73) presents something that should be possible for an Aerodyne Small Craft to do (i.e., land/take off vertically in atmosphere), but as presented, the rule virtually guarantees destruction of the craft (that automatic damage table is in Capital Scale).  Further, Aerospace Fighters and Aerodyne Small Craft are explicitly forbidden (Tech Manual, page 190) from mounting V/STOL gear because "they already have that capability" (which stems from their ability to land/take off vertically in vacuum).

Should means only that there is a chance that they can do it, not that they can do it with no risk. Nothing wrong with making a high roll requirement. Look at it this was, you should be able to hit with a weapon at long range, even with a to hit number of 9 or 10, that doesn't mean you are likely to. Makes it an act of necessity, not choice.

It's also not unusual in the BTU to have arbitrary rulings to limit or prevent options, look at CVs mounting DHS or XL engines. The reason these are rules is because it's something that the Devs don't want in the game, so they become outright impossible or extremely unlikely. Consistency is maintained throughout.

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #84 on: 15 January 2018, 05:30:02 »
The inconsistent thing is that unless you can roll well in excess of 13 on 2d6, the craft is taking multiple Capital Scale damage points.

Nightlord01

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #85 on: 15 January 2018, 07:26:33 »
The inconsistent thing is that unless you can roll well in excess of 13 on 2d6, the craft is taking multiple Capital Scale damage points.

From what Weirdo wrote up thread, it requires a 9+ in a normal environment...

I have to admit, I've only bought TW and Techman, never bought the others as I ran out of motivation to keep playing. So I can't perform my own due diligence on it, but others are telling me it's possible, but unlikely, you're telling me it's flat out impossible, which is it? Are you using all the modifiers to come to 13+?

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #86 on: 15 January 2018, 08:36:06 »
Ah, you haven't read the StratOps rules I'm talking about.

The key part of them is this paragraph:
Quote
The unit suffers automatic damage based on its tonnage (see Size Class Damage Table, above). Modify this damage by the MoS or MoF of the Control Roll and then apply any Atmospheric Conditions modifiers to the final damage.  Damage is split evenly between the Nose and Aft armor.  If damage exceeds the damage threshold for that arc, roll for a critical hit as normal.

The other thing to know is the "automatic damage" in the table for units under 500 tons is 6+1d6 Capital Scale, PLUS another 1d6 for attempting a landing.  So that's 6+2d6 Capital Scale damage to start.  You get to subtract 6 for every MoS (and add 1d6 for  every MoF), but Small Craft specifically get a +2 target number, and that's on top of all the usual modifiers Spheroids have to contend with.  Any roll you'd actually make in a game would require somewhere north of 13 to get away unscathed.  For something units already "have the capability to do" (back to that Tech Manual reference that forbids installing V/STOL gear).  Beyond that, an Aerodyne unit lifting off with its landing gear deployed automatically destroys it, period.  That in particular isn't a feature of a capability a unit "has".

Hopefully that makes more sense now.

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #87 on: 15 January 2018, 08:42:16 »
So the most current stats are meant to go with the most current rules, it sounds like.

If you want to use older stats, what's wrong with using the older rules they're meant to go with? I know my copy of AT2r didn't spontaneously combust when SO was published, did anybody else's? ???

No, but when I bought Total Warfare my old Compendium started leaking blood and moaning. I asked about it and was told it's not a problem, it's a feature.
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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #88 on: 15 January 2018, 09:17:07 »
Can only do so much with standard rules and 30 tons. I did make a 40 ton helo APC on the lines of a Mi-24 hind.
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anastrace

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Re: Why no VTOL heavy APCs?
« Reply #89 on: 15 January 2018, 10:19:07 »
I have a question then, how does this rule fit in then?

Quote
Strategic Ops Page 73

Spheroid and aerodyne units can land vertically with the
following conditions and modifers (effectively the unit hovers
over the water and then cuts its drive when two elevations up,
dropping the remaining distance to avoid plasma backwash):


It doesn't mention Aerospace fighters, just the two types of small craft and dropships.
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