Why no VTOL heavy APCs?

[Daryk]

Good question!  I fear the thread drift is becoming acute, though... perhaps we should start a separate thread for this? :)

[Weirdo]

Very good idea, as the discussion of surface-to-orbit shuttles and their landing modes has very little to do with helicopter troop transports.

[Maingunnery]

From what Weirdo wrote up thread, it requires a 9+ in a normal environment...

In universe it is very strange, because why add a feature if it is going to fail most of the time? And fail horribly at that.

[Kit deSummersville]

In universe it is very strange, because why add a feature if it is going to fail most of the time? And fail horribly at that.

Like DFAs?

[guardiandashi]

Like DFAs?

technically only 1 mech was ever designed to do dfa's and depending on how you read the fluff (not gameplay rules) a person could argue that it shouldn't take damage from the an actual successful DFA all of the other mechs were using "improvised tactics"

[Weirdo]

In universe it is very strange, because why add a feature if it is going to fail most of the time? And fail horribly at that.

Because so much of Battletech is about risk vs reward. There's lots of things you can do that are risky, but useful if you can pull it off.

[Maingunnery]

Because so much of Battletech is about risk vs reward. There's lots of things you can do that are risky, but useful if you can pull it off.

In universe it is not balanced to be designed for it.

Now a proper risk vs reward balance would be if such a roll is only needed if hit just before landing. So land safely away from combat or rake a risk to land troops directly at the objective.

[JadeHellbringer]

Because so much of Battletech is about risk vs reward. There's lots of things you can do that are risky, but useful if you can pull it off.

*slowly raises hand*

Have we met?  [blank]

[Nightlord01]

Ah, you haven't read the StratOps rules I'm talking about.

The key part of them is this paragraph:
The other thing to know is the "automatic damage" in the table for units under 500 tons is 6+1d6 Capital Scale, PLUS another 1d6 for attempting a landing.  So that's 6+2d6 Capital Scale damage to start.  You get to subtract 6 for every MoS (and add 1d6 for  every MoF), but Small Craft specifically get a +2 target number, and that's on top of all the usual modifiers Spheroids have to contend with.  Any roll you'd actually make in a game would require somewhere north of 13 to get away unscathed.  For something units already "have the capability to do" (back to that Tech Manual reference that forbids installing V/STOL gear).  Beyond that, an Aerodyne unit lifting off with its landing gear deployed automatically destroys it, period.  That in particular isn't a feature of a capability a unit "has".

Hopefully that makes more sense now.

That does indeed make sense. So, the unit will always take damage, and that damage is applied no matter what, just a variable amount. I see. I agree that the rules would definitely need clarification and would suggest that they are applying rules for dropships to small craft.

[Daryk]

Thank you!  I always appreciate affirmations of my sanity...  :D

[Nightlord01]

Thank you!  I always appreciate affirmations of my sanity...  :D

Lol, so long as you doubt it occasionally, you are definitely sane. After all, crazy people never doubt their sanity.  >:D

My interpretation of the issue, after a little thought, is that CGL don't want VTOL small craft to be in the game, however they are willing to let a good pilot attempt the vertical landing part in the event of necessity. Sort of like the US army "amphibious" (once) ships from WWII, where they drove an old cargo carrier up to the beech and offloaded. That ship would never leave the beech, thanks to structural issues far greater than just having the power to drag itself off.

I'd say the rules need to either be clarified to cover this, or changed to permit VTOL.

[Weirdo]

I'm in a good mood right now, so I'll just quote this

Very good idea, as the discussion of surface-to-orbit shuttles and their landing modes has very little to do with helicopter troop transports.

and remind folks that ignoring moderator directives almost always results in Warnings being issued.

[JadeHellbringer]

What I'd like to see someday is a heavy APC-style WiGE. Which we have SOME examples of WiGEs that can carry troops on board (Hiryo), it doesn't carry a large load. And while there's larger examples like the Ryu, a support WiGE is a little concerning to run too close to a combat zone- if the idea is to drop battle armor off into a combat situation, it needs to be pretty much into the fray, otherwise what's the point? A Ryu is a bit vulnerable for the job.

So what I'd like to see is a 'normal' sized WiGE that basically does the Shun's job- a 12-ton infantry bay, only the most simple of defensive weapons, able to dash in and drop off its troops and get the hell out of there immediately without bells and whistles. The ability to take a few hits is nice, but since a WiGE (like most vehicles) die from motive hits rather than being cored out it doesn't have to be anything wild and crazy.

[Weirdo]

Didn't the Lyrans get one with a twelve-ton bay or somesuch? It's the one with a Heavy Gauss of some flavor, so after it lands and unloads the troops, it makes a good rolling assault gun.

Admittedly it's not exactly what you seek, since it's less of a drop-and-dash and more of a self-deploying bunker, but still...

[JadeHellbringer]

Didn't the Lyrans get one with a twelve-ton bay or somesuch? It's the one with a Heavy Gauss of some flavor, so after it lands and unloads the troops, it makes a good rolling assault gun.

Admittedly it's not exactly what you seek, since it's less of a drop-and-dash and more of a self-deploying bunker, but still...

Fensalir? It has a variant that loses the MML racks to gain an enormous infantry bay, yeah. But it has an enormous drawback. Remember that a WiGE has to maintain five hexes' movement at all times to remain airborne (and that's five actual hexes moved, not 5 MP used!). Which is fine, but the Fensalir isn't particularly fast (5/8)- so a motive hit that would be annoying to most units (even other, faster WiGEs) is utterly crippling to this thing.

Drop the HGR for higher speed or the armored motive system a different version carries, and you're coming more towards what I'm thinking of. As it is, despite its firepower the Fensalir suffers mightily due to that speed problem, and I'd have to personally avoid it in the kind of role I'm looking for here.

[Daryk]

I'm in a good mood right now, so I'll just quote thisand remind folks that ignoring moderator directives almost always results in Warnings being issued.

Perhaps the mods could split the offending posts off for us into a separate thread? Please? :)

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I know that in AS a unit can disgorge as many Infantry as it may have onboard, but is that also true in CBT/Boardgame BattleTech?  I think I remember that you can only load/offload 1 platoon per turn?  If that's true, it seems to me that being able to carry 3 platoons/BA squads is an advantage over 2 that is beyond the point of diminishing returns...

[anastrace]

I know that in AS a unit can disgorge as many Infantry as it may have onboard, but is that also true in CBT/Boardgame BattleTech?  I think I remember that you can only load/offload 1 platoon per turn?  If that's true, it seems to me that being able to carry 3 platoons/BA squads is an advantage over 2 that is beyond the point of diminishing returns...

Maybe that's one of the reasons we haven't seen many, beyond things like the Shun. That one at least has stealth armor so it provides some defensive measures when she's grounded or hovering and dropping their payload. I could see an argument for a massive VTOL capacity for transports that are designed to drop multiple squads of heavy or assault armor.

What is funny to think is that a Shun can carry up to 96 people in it's hold. I just keep imagining that many people crammed into a VTOL like a phonebooth.

[Kit deSummersville]

Perhaps the mods could split the offending posts off for us into a separate thread? Please? :)

Or we could give the unpaid moderators a break and just start a new thread on our own.

[Sir Chaos]

(For laughs, try keeping the fighters on the ground and using them as rolling assault guns that don't suffer vehicle motive crits.)

 }:)

[Weirdo]

I know that in AS a unit can disgorge as many Infantry as it may have onboard, but is that also true in CBT/Boardgame BattleTech?  I think I remember that you can only load/offload 1 platoon per turn?  If that's true, it seems to me that being able to carry 3 platoons/BA squads is an advantage over 2 that is beyond the point of diminishing returns...

This is correct. There are numerous exceptions for things like support vees, very large combat units, big aeros, and so forth, but for regular old combat vehicles in most circumstances, it's one infantry platoon(or BA squad) per turn, even if stacking limits would allow for more. For combat vees with large bays, my advice is to either find some hard cover to do your unloading behind, or plan your strategy to involve spread out troops. That way you can move to one spot, unload, move to the next spot, unload, all while keeping your TMM up. If your force has multiple such transports and a sizable infantry force, you can use interweaving movement paths and deploy multiple concentrations of troops across a broad front in very short order.