Author Topic: How does the DCMS organize C3 units at the battalion/regimental level?  (Read 7387 times)

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
So I have 7 lances worth of my Sword of Light regiment, which is within spitting distance of a full battalion. Currently one company is organized around C3, and another is not - mostly because the minis don't have C3 variants.

However, C3 doesn't work beyond a company level. So how does the DCMS organize their C3 units at a higher level than that? For me, this is more than academic, because I tend to play Alpha Strike and battalion level games are hardly out of the question (especially if you move/shoot a lance at a time rather than a model at a time). So it'd be nice to have my force at least nominally in line with what the background dictates.

I see several possible options, but I don't know which one is true:

1) DCMS organizes C3 as one company a battalion, meant to serve as a strike force and rigid backbone.

2) DCMS organizes C3 into a unified battalion, and sends the individual companies out to reinforce the other battalions of the regiment.

3) As above, but the DCMS keeps the battalion together so that breakdowns in network integrity can be integrated into new networks quickly.

4) DCMS organizes C3 at the regimental level, with one company per regiment meant to operate as troubleshooters/strike force.

5) At the regimental level, with the entire regiment being networked.

6) Sir, it depends on the amount of C3M/S units available, with all the above being possibilities, sir!

With one more problem: Do C3 battalions adhere to the 10-lance structure, with the Sho-sa lance in its own single-lance network, or does it go with a 9-lance structure, with the Sho-sa's lance in a company network?

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
It will be what you want it to be.

Honestly we don't have much to go on here amongst all the novels and sourcebooks.

That said, not all C3 has to be Company level. I expect while the DCMS has company level C3, it is not as common as Lance level C3.

So #3 is pretty much out. C3 requires maintenance to switch to a different master/slave combination. This cannot be done during a battle. Only as setup for it (Just like loading ammo). So it doesn't slot in as easily there.

So #6 is the main answer.

There is one big glaring thing though.  C3 networks cannot go beyond 12 units (6 for C3i, 3 for CEWS). Ever.  No matter what.  You can organize this as SSSM, SSSM, SSS(MM) OR SSSM, SSSM, SSMM. Each master can only handle 3 children, and no C3 can handle more than 12 units.

So a battalion would be 3 C3 companies (If all equipped). They are not tied together.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3_Command_Unit

How you mix the lances up is pretty much up to you. Technically you could have 2 lances of nothing but slaves, and one as nothing but masters. (But ECM is a pain, and you have to keep track of which members in each lance are assigned to each master).
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
I'm of the opinion that in practice, C3 is only put into networks at the tactical level.  That is, you don't field a C3M and 3 C3Slave units in the same lance, and you don't field a 12 unit C3 network as a company on your TOE.

It makes too much sense to break them out across your force, and only configure C3 networks on the fly as compatible units find themselves in the line of fire.  It doesn't make logistical sense to say that a carefully planned C3 network force makes it into battle together when rag tag/mix-n-match forces are the norm for what usually makes it onto the battlefield.  You can manage homogeneity for C3, but you can't manage it any other time?  I don't buy it.

For my own headcanon, a force "heavy" on C3 is about 1/3 to 1/4 C3 capable.  Such a company would have 1 C3M and 3 C3 Slaves across the entire force, but odds are slim they'd all be in the same lance.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2018, 19:21:37 by Tai Dai Cultist »

jshdncn

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 51
You can use your non-C3 force to support your C3 equipped force. For example ECM set to ECCM to protect your network is a powerful setup; a good brawler can keep your spotters from getting cut off and is a credible threat on its own.

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
The DCMS has more indigenous dual-master variants than other militaries I THINK. So that gives a clue - they tend to use company networks more than other militaries do.

How they deploy them probably is exactly how you would: it all depends on what your regiment looks like, how many C3 units you can get, and very importantly, what models they consist of. From there you figure out your strategy, your "concept of operations" i.e. how you will use them. All your C3s are "battle" Mechs? You might use them to overmatch and break the enemy's battle units. Got a lot of C3s with long guns and fast-moving C3 slaves? You might use them as fire support in conjunction with C3 spotters to destroy the enemy from afar. If you have a company network you might fight your unit as a battalion, if you have lots of lance networks you might fight in independent companies... etc etc.

As for your scenarios.... remember C3 only works in either lance or company sized blocks. So when you say "DCMS organizes C3 into a unified battalion", I have to assume you mean a single battalion consisting of 36 C3-equipped Mechs linked into 3 to 9 C3 networks.

1), 2) and 3) are the same, but situational... I would expect an elite regiment to be well-trained in operating in any of these configurations. Also 36 C3 Mechs in a regiment is definitely some Sword of Light elite unit.

4) is more likely in less-well-supplied units.

5) is right out. There is not a single regiment in the FMs marked 100% C3-equipped.

@TDC - You homogenise when you can. If you really only have a C3M and a handful of C3Ss you make do, form the network and work out how best to employ it. Thats what all unit commanders do. "Rag-tag mix and match" is subjective. Obviously its hard to randomly roll a complete and workable C3 lance out of 12 Mechs, but you can form something very coherent out of 108 randomly rolled Mechs, if say 20% of them are C3-equipped.

You only spread C3 Mechs across formations if it benefits you somehow, eg having a C3 spotter in the Recon Lance, and fire support C3s in the Fire Lance, maybe the C3M in the command lance, AND you fight as a united company. Otherwise its the same as not using C3 at all... or worse.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2018, 20:56:32 by Kidd »

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
A recon lance serves as a perfectly fine example.

With perspective to C3, you're necessarily going to have one of three possibilities:
1) No C3 on any member of the lance
2) Some C3, but not a viable 4 unit network in that recon lance
3) A C3M and 3 slaves

#1 isn't relevant to a discussion of how you organize your C3, which leaves 2 and 3.  In order to be 3, a recon lance needs to force in a C3M somehow.  Granted, that's actually somewhat feasible for the DCMS even if not anyone else... but still needing a C3M puts a lot of constraint on the composition compared to just having some number of slaves across the lance.  Maybe even 4 slaves!

OTOH if you deploy your C3 into pre-defined lances, your C3 network takes holes whenever your TOE does.  All you have to do is play 1 campaign game where you try to match networks to the TOE before you see that it's far simpler to just build a network out of the mechs that happen to be included in the battle, rather than forcing entire lances into battle just so their C3 network is intact.

Another lesson from campaign play is if you're planning on fielding an actual 12 unit network, you better have a lot more than just those 12 C3 units available.  Losses are a bitch, but especially for C3 units if you use "hardwired"/predefined networks.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2018, 21:23:41 by Tai Dai Cultist »

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
So I have my answer, as such - we don't know. So I'll configure it as a central C3 company that serves as a spearhead, with two non-C3 companies as flankers and support. Perhaps with a sprinkling of lance-level C3, since I already have five C3M 'Mechs (even if the DRG is not an ideal master) and DEFINITELY want to add a Naginata.

So #3 is pretty much out. C3 requires maintenance to switch to a different master/slave combination. This cannot be done during a battle. Only as setup for it (Just like loading ammo). So it doesn't slot in as easily there.
Is this canon? What's the reference on how long it takes? Besides, it would probably be done (if it were done) in a timeframe similar to reloading - you take a pause in the battle to reconfigure the C3 setup with fit units and send the remainder to be repaired. It doesn't seem as though it'd be impossible...
The DCMS has more indigenous dual-master variants than other militaries I THINK. So that gives a clue - they tend to use company networks more than other militaries do.
They produce 4 of the 9 units with dual masters, and the other factions have one or two. So, yeah, I think they form company level networks pretty often. They also have the nifty underwater C3M Avatar config...

You only spread C3 Mechs across formations if it benefits you somehow, eg having a C3 spotter in the Recon Lance, and fire support C3s in the Fire Lance, maybe the C3M in the command lance, AND you fight as a united company. Otherwise its the same as not using C3 at all... or worse.
The interesting thing about C3 organization is it doesn't really reward the traditional recon/battle/command lance TOE - C3Ms are simply too heavy for a recon command unit to carry, and if that C3M gets destroyed then the entire recon force is cut off from the rest of the company.

Instead, each individual lance network should have a recon element, a striker/skirmisher, and two fire support/brawler/juggernauts. Perhaps the recon elements of all three lances work together as a recon demi-lance, without sending a delicate C3M out there, but the ACTUAL lance as defined by the network is an entirely autonomous unit, even in a company-level network. If you just had one lance network in a larger company, then how you outline above is exactly how I'd do it.

And while I saw this relationship with Battletech and BV2, C3 was always too expensive to USE at a company level so I never did - and Alpha Strike really highlighted the relationship. I really like it, but I wanted to know if I'd be breaking some canocity if I did it my way. Not that I tend to worry about that a LOT, but I do try to keep it in mind. :D

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Is this canon? What's the reference on how long it takes? Besides, it would probably be done (if it were done) in a timeframe similar to reloading - you take a pause in the battle to reconfigure the C3 setup with fit units and send the remainder to be repaired. It doesn't seem as though it'd be impossible...

Whereas loading ammo has some low TN for the task, setting network relationships for C3 doesn't even have an easy TN... it's just automatically successful.  The only canonical constraint is not being able to do it in the context of an active battle.  From a campaign or role-playing perspective, it "probably" takes a minute or two of twiddling computer settings.  Easy peasy automatically successful squeezy; it just takes too much time to do under fire.

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Instead, each individual lance network should have a recon element, a striker/skirmisher, and two fire support/brawler/juggernauts. Perhaps the recon elements of all three lances work together as a recon demi-lance, without sending a delicate C3M out there, but the ACTUAL lance as defined by the network is an entirely autonomous unit, even in a company-level network. If you just had one lance network in a larger company, then how you outline above is exactly how I'd do it.
The perfect Mech company should be set up so that it can break into 3 lances each with recon, battle and command elements, then reform as an independent company unit for battalion-scale ops. But this doesn't even happen IRL let alone Battletech, and perfection is boring - so I prefer to determine beforehand if the unit fights on a lance or company level.

Dude, list your Mechs either here or in the Noncanon Units sub, it'll be fun to fiddle with your Orbat O0

@TDC - There's a difference in approach when one is starting a campaign and when reorganising between battles.

When starting, I suggest not pre-fragmenting the C3 formation on the assumption that it will be fragged by future losses. Nobody starts a battle that way. When continuing, usually having incomplete C3 nets is preferable to having totally unusable nets or complete nets with unlinked nodes left out.

Eg if I have say 4 C3Ms and 10 C3Ss, I'd rather deploy them as 4 nets (probably 4-4-3-3) rather than 3 nets (4-4-4) and 2 unused, or (4-4-4-2). Its usually more effective. The constraint is usually how many C3Ms are available. Excess of C3Ss aren't usually a problem. And above all, the function of the lance overrides maximising the C3 net construction; no mixing brawlers and recon unless the unit is designed to fight that way:

So to take that hypothetical recon lance - I'll always start off with a complete C3 net. When I lose a Slave, I'll plug in a spare unconnected Slave if available AND its a recon Mech, or a non-C3 recon Mech, rather than a C3 75-ton brawler. What I absolutely won't do is have another Mech connected to a different C3 net in a different lance, simply for the sake of connection... that degrades the effectiveness of BOTH networks. If the C3M is lost I either pull a spare C3M from somewhere, or dissolve the lance and plug the surviving C3Ss into holes in other C3 nets, or run them unlinked - this is probably a must if they're the designated recon lance for the battalion. Form follows function.

If this is what you mean by reconfiguring nets between battles then we are in accord.

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
The perfect Mech company should be set up so that it can break into 3 lances each with recon, battle and command elements, then reform as an independent company unit for battalion-scale ops. But this doesn't even happen IRL let alone Battletech, and perfection is boring - so I prefer to determine beforehand if the unit fights on a lance or company level.

Dude, list your Mechs either here or in the Noncanon Units sub, it'll be fun to fiddle with your Orbat O0
Heh, okay. A lot of Unseen in this list, btw. With a picture at the end of the entirety. But it has a fair few non-Dragon Battlemechs - but what does that matter for a unit that's seen a lot of action and battlefield prizes claimed, anyway? When I was divvying them up 'recently' (circa 2011) I was heavily focused on what had C3 and what didn't, regardless of canocity.

Archer, Atlas, Battlemaster, Banshee, Catapult, Centurion, Crusader, Cyclops, Dragon, Grasshopper, Griffon, Hunchback, Javelin, Jenner, Locust, Longbow, Marauder, Panther, Phoenix Hawk, Rifleman, Sagittaire, Shadowhawk, Thunderbolt, Trebuchet, Victor, Warhammer, Wasp, Whitworth, Wolverine.

For those of you counting at home, that's 29 'Mechs, and I have the contents of an Alpha Strike Battle Lance and Striker Lance sitting on my desk (some of which will be replacing older, inferior plastic sculpts). So I'd need 11 more 'mechs for a full 40 battalion. Obviously going to fill that out with very DCMS oriented 'Mechs (as of right now few of them are iconic Draconis models...) and I might take out a couple of the real oddballs,especially the Sagittaire, to repaint into my merc unit.

If you want to play with OpFor lists, though, the Banshee is converted to be a BNC-8S. Something about a hatchet-wielding, 95-ton, TSM/ECM-equipped C3 Slave just makes me say, "Damn the canon, THIS THING IS AWESOME."

I think that the C3M setup I'm going to use for the planned company is the NG-C3B Naginata (double master variant), ASD-CM, and BLR-M3. Though in actual games that may vary depending on what kind of points allowance I have...

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Wow. WOW. Well, I love playing with TOEs so let me molest your forces just for the heck of it, nice way to pass a Saturday afternoon :D

I'll post again but here's my summary and first impressions: of 29 Mechs, you have 5 Lights, 9 Mediums, 8 Heavies and 7 Assaults. I am not familiar with Alpha Strike roles but in a VERY vague sense, you have 6 Fire support (missile) Mechs, 4 Recon and 19 Battle types (counted Rifleman and Phoenix Hawk here). And no repeats!

That's... rather top heavy, and odd. But what the heck. I'm going to guess that you will deploy this in an AS battalion fight, so let's build (for now) 7 lances designed to operate as a unified force. At a guess, that might be 1 recon lance, 1 cavalry lance, 2 fire support lances, and 3 battle/assault lances... Tallyho!

Edit - ALRIGHT here we go: right now, I'd assemble 2 companies + 1 command lance out of your current troops, with 1 Mech left over unused (Panther). Alpha Coy takes objectives, Beta Coy holds the line, Command Lance shores up any weak spots.

Alpha Company
Recon Lance - Jenner, Javelin, Locust, Wasp
Cavalry Lance - Griffin, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk, Phoenix Hawk
Fire Support Lance - Crusader, Catapult, Trebuchet, Centurion

Beta Company
Battle Lance - Marauder, Rifleman, Warhammer, Thunderbolt
Fire Support Lance - Longbow, Archer, Dragon, Whitworth
Fast Assault Lance - Sagittaire, Victor, Grasshopper, Hunchback

Command Lance
Assault/Command Lance - Atlas, Battlemaster, Banshee, Cyclops
« Last Edit: 13 January 2018, 03:00:49 by Kidd »

Nightsong

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 556
One thing to keep in mind, it would depend heavily on the regiment’s loyalty to the old ways. A lot of the elite units were very into the old samurai mindset and weren’t too fond of the technology. Much like the clan zelbrigen mindset really. I actually think the more middle of the road units would be the ones to use them, as the dreg units wouldn’t be given expensive tech, while the Samurai would be getting the high end ‘mechs.

jshdncn

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 51
The Genyosha and Ryuken are elite units that embraced C3, while the Sword of Light regiments are more traditional. The Ghost regiments have ‘acquired’ some C3, no one is entirely sure how. Most DCMS line regiments will have some C3 unless particularly hide-bound. By 3145 even the backwater militias should have C3 equipment.

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
One of my favorite c3m mechs for dcms is the bishamon.  A medium quad mech that goes 7/11 and carries a master. Nobody expects a fast master in a recon lance.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
In going through my Battletech unpainted stuff, I found out I have TWO Dragons and another Panther. Though I may save one of them to replace the older IBS Dragon in there - the shoulder arrays aren't circular, they're more oval - and it's smaller than they are. Still, that's several more 'Mechs... meaning I only need 5 more iconic Dragon 'Mechs to finish off the battalion, six if I swap out the Sagittaire. One is a Naginata, for sure. If I didn't have a Longbow already in there I'd try to get an O-Bakemono (I'm a big fan of artillery). I do like the Daikyu too...

But that's future-thinking, for after I find a new job. At least my original question was answered. :D

One of my favorite c3m mechs for dcms is the bishamon.  A medium quad mech that goes 7/11 and carries a master. Nobody expects a fast master in a recon lance.
Speed isn't armor. Like I said, company-sized C3 formations don't favor the traditional lance structure, but seem to work best when each lance is its own mini-formation with all the proper elements (recon, striker, fire support), with the obvious source of at least one fire support being your master 'Mech. That way, if something bad happens to your central master, at least you're not completely boned on the points you spent for the formation!

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
I would use the following:

But this is MY way of thinking...

Double CM in each Company Commander w/ 3 Slaves each. Extra CM is for Batt. Commander and Company Commanders who have their own 3 Slaves. Each Lance Commander has a CM and a single NON Slave per Lance, a Bodyguard of sorts.

SO:

Batt. CO - CM w/ 3 Slaved Lancemates, 2nd CM for his Company Commanders, 1 each ( 3 )

*1st. Company CO - CM w/ 3 Slaved Lancemates, 2nd CM for his Commander and fellow Lance Commanders, 1 each ( 3 )

*2nd. Company CO - CM w/ 3 Slaved Lancemates, 2nd CM for his Commander and fellow Lance Commanders, 1 each ( 3 )

*3rd. Company CO - CM w/ 3 Slaved Lancemates, 2nd CM for his Commander and fellow Lance Commanders, 1 each ( 3 )


or more clearly:

Batt. CM* -1, 2, 3 / 2nd CM# - Company COs
* Co CM - 1, 2, 3, / 2nd CM@ - Lance COs, Slaved to Batt
@ Lance CM - 1, 2 and a Non Slave, Slaved to CO

Battalion is a Command Lance only. You could also slave the Batt. CM to the Regiment, but then you'll lose a Company in the process.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
@iamfanboy - you're okay with so many different models? some other DCMS Mechs to consider which I haven't seen mentioned here:

Hitman, Kintaro, Daimyo, Komodo, Quickdraw, No-Dachi, Maelstrom, Hatamoto-Chi, Katana, Mauler, Gunslinger, Akuma

And the DC-developed Omnis:
Owens, Raptor, Strider, Firestarter-O, Blackjack-O, Black Hawk-KU, Avatar, Sunder

There are some really good models here. Might want to swap out a few of the generics from your current build.

guardiandashi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4826
I actually disagree with Iamfanboy regarding the c3 company configuration but sometimes it requires looking outside the box and or "custom" configurations to make it work well.

my preferred company involves 4 single master mechs
so something like:
Recon master as something 50+tons, to be honest my 1st thought would be something like a phoenix hawk 3M (the dual large laser one) but with one of the er larges pulled and a C3M mounted instead plus some other tweeks to make it more survivable.
3 c3 slave mechs in that lance

then have a "fire lance" with a c3m and 3 slaves
and the "command lance" with 2 c3m mechs and 2 slaves 1 which is the command lance master, and 1 the company master as I find "wasting" 5 tons on c3 per mech is a lot easier to deal with than "wasting" 10 tons on 1 unit.

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
My personal groupings (which are a little odd), but workable.

Scout lance:
Bishamon C3M
Raptor D (C3S)
Spider SDR-C (C3S)
Strider E (C3S)

Battle Lance:
Shugenja (C3M)
Daikyu DAI-02 (C3S)
Komodo KIM-2C (C3S)
Grand Dragon DRG-7K (C3S)

Command lance:
Tai-sho (2C3M)
Avatar D (C3S)
Sunder C (C3S)
Atlas AS7-C (C3S)


That is lots to get in close, with the command and battle lances having a ton of PPCs.  The Tai-sho is well defended by a dizzying amount of MRMs.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
While there are a decent number of mechs with 2 C3Ms available to Kurita forces, I'm a fan of dispersing the 4 C3Ms across 4 mechs rather than 3.  Not only is that more tactically survivable, it's more flexible in campaign operations as any C3M unit can coordinate any 3 subnetwork units whereas a unit with 2 C3Ms can only fulfill 1 role in a C3 network.  And if the circumstances of battle happen to preclude viable usage of a C3 network a mech with 2C3Ms has twice as much wasted tonnage as a mech with 1 C3M.  Additionally, if you use a mech with 2C3Ms then your network only has 3 units with free TAGs rather than 4 :)

Another thought:  If this is a thought exercise that's got BV/PV balanced battles as a factor, then you almost assuredly want to be using conventional/auxiliary forces as a significant portion of your C3 network.  You simply don't want to put 12 C3 mechs against an even number of non C3 Mechs... it's simply too dramatically over-priced in BV.  Less so in Alpha Strike's PV, but still the best bang-for-the-PV involves pairing mechs with cheaper units to flesh out the network.  if you factor that into in-universe logistics, then your line mech unit may very well not ever intend to operate C3 without incorporating non-organic conventionals... i.e. designing a pure mech 12 unit force is a waste of brainpower if you never intend to actually field a pure mech C3 network...
« Last Edit: 15 January 2018, 11:57:27 by Tai Dai Cultist »

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
While there are a decent number of mechs with 2 C3Ms available to Kurita forces, I'm a fan of dispersing the 4 C3Ms across 4 mechs rather than 3.  Not only is that more tactically survivable, it's more flexible in campaign operations as any C3M unit can coordinate any 3 subnetwork units whereas a unit with 2 C3Ms can only fulfill 1 role in a C3 network.  And if the circumstances of battle happen to preclude viable usage of a C3 network a mech with 2C3Ms has twice as much wasted tonnage as a mech with 1 C3M.  Additionally, if you use a mech with 2C3Ms then your network only has 3 units with free TAGs rather than 4 :)

Another thought:  If this is a thought exercise that's got BV/PV balanced battles as a factor, then you almost assuredly want to be using conventional/auxiliary forces as a significant portion of your C3 network.  You simply don't want to put 12 C3 mechs against an even number of non C3 Mechs... it's simply too dramatically over-priced in BV.  Less so in Alpha Strike's PV, but still the best bang-for-the-PV involves pairing mechs with cheaper units to flesh out the network.  if you factor that into in-universe logistics, then your line mech unit may very well not ever intend to operate C3 without incorporating non-organic conventionals... i.e. designing a pure mech 12 unit force is a waste of brainpower if you never intend to actually field a pure mech C3 network...


Any good C3 company has a lance of Arrow IV units (eg: O-Bakemono, Chaparral Tank, Schiltron) All those TAGs to bring the Arrow IV rain.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
RoundTop~

Bishamon is a nice unit, BUT the Skulker is made on Alshain by Joint Equipment Systems. The CM variant is 230bv.

Also for some reason Sarna lists it as a tracked scout, even though the link shows the wheeled.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
I'm a fan of having a lance of Schiltrons and Turhan C3Ms on the campaign roster.  That's all 4 C3Ms needed for a full sized network in one conventional lance... enough to power all the mech-based C3Slaves you want.  (not to mention hiding a key C3M or two behind LOS and lobbing Arrow IVs is about the juiciest way to use a C3M...)  And if you're in a situation where C3 is useless or as-good-as-useless, your mechs aren't largely put out by having 1 ton each worth of equipment made useless... and if you did bring the Schiltrons and Turhans to the battle anyway you still have artillery and perfectly decent Battle Armor Taxis.  Not a huge waste in C3M tonnage being useless.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2018, 14:43:39 by Tai Dai Cultist »

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
I see your force Tai Dai Cultist, and raise you 3x Thumper / Arrow Gun Trailers and a LRM Gun Trailer.

But over all, what would you run as Flankers for this unit of yours?

I have used the Unarmed Pegasus as a Battle Taxi, with it's 12 ton bay.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
I see your force Tai Dai Cultist, and raise you 3x Thumper / Arrow Gun Trailers and a LRM Gun Trailer.

But over all, what would you run as Flankers for this unit of yours?

I have used the Unarmed Pegasus as a Battle Taxi, with it's 12 ton bay.

TT

I'm a big fan of Kurita's excellent hovertanks.  Depending on the Era, I'd go with the most up-to-date incarnation of a C3S Pegasus or switch over to the BC3 MkII S-Tanks in the Dark Age.  There are also some ridiculously good C3S VTOLS like Sprints and Crows depending on era for very minxy spotter units.. but vulnerable to flak.

Anyway my larger point is I wouldn't design a campaign force with pre-ordained C3 configurations.  I'd have a mix of units available, and I wouldn't bother with any effort at all to arrange 4 unit C3 network sets into simultaneously being campaign lances.  A lance of 4 hovers or VTOLs with slaves is perfectly good in my mind.  They don't need an integral C3M in their own lance because they can connect to whatever C3Ms.  They might be in the same lance (and share lance SPAs, if that's in effect) but spot for different C3 sub-networks.

Same thing with the mechs.  Lance membership and C3 (sub)network membership are different things and have absolutely no benefit from overlapping.  If they happen to overlap, dilly dilly.  But who cares.  I see the mech forces being assigned to lances/companies being done "my way" in universe is what I was saying :)  That games are generally BV/PV balanced, and therefore you'll probably end up using conventionals as part of your network to remain under the points cap is the real phenomenon going on.  Deciding that in-universe they just plug-n-play their networks immediately before battle out of whoever's close enough to participate in said battle is just a way to rationalize hodge-podge forces dictated by meta concerns.

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
I actually disagree with Iamfanboy regarding the c3 company configuration but sometimes it requires looking outside the box and or "custom" configurations to make it work well.

my preferred company involves 4 single master mechs
so something like:
Recon master as something 50+tons, to be honest my 1st thought would be something like a phoenix hawk 3M (the dual large laser one) but with one of the er larges pulled and a C3M mounted instead plus some other tweeks to make it more survivable.
3 c3 slave mechs in that lance

then have a "fire lance" with a c3m and 3 slaves
and the "command lance" with 2 c3m mechs and 2 slaves 1 which is the command lance master, and 1 the company master as I find "wasting" 5 tons on c3 per mech is a lot easier to deal with than "wasting" 10 tons on 1 unit.
Four single masters is preferable in all ways to a double+2 singles except one:

Cost.

In any game balanced by BV or PV you'll be grossly outnumbered by using C3. While having a C3M2 is vulnerable, the usual suspects are either heavily armored and hard to kill quickly, or blindingly fast (the Strider with dual Boosted C3Ms is awesome as a hide-and-forget leader).

Having 4 Masters is far better for redundancy and resilience, which is why it may sound strange that I argue against it (considering my next point), but compromises have to be made in a wargame.


Resilience and redundancy is why I argue for each network being self-contained. A traditional company structure, with a C3M in the position of Recon Lance leader, is vulnerable to disruption: that Recon Lance C3M has to be on point, will rely on speed as armor (and speed ISN'T armor!), and any opponent with a gram of sense will immediately see your vulnerable point and focus on it.

By using a different structure, with the recon elements of each lance ahead, the striker elements between the recon and master, and the master elements in the rear providing fire support, you minimize the risk of your network being disrupted by headhunter units and maximize the strengths of the C3 company formation. There's not many fast headhunter units that can make it past a striker screen and still have the oomph to deal with multiple assault 'Mechs close in!

@iamfanboy - you're okay with so many different models? some other DCMS Mechs to consider which I haven't seen mentioned here:

Hitman, Kintaro, Daimyo, Komodo, Quickdraw, No-Dachi, Maelstrom, Hatamoto-Chi, Katana, Mauler, Gunslinger, Akuma

And the DC-developed Omnis:
Owens, Raptor, Strider, Firestarter-O, Blackjack-O, Black Hawk-KU, Avatar, Sunder

There are some really good models here. Might want to swap out a few of the generics from your current build.
The Sunder, Avatar, Daimyo, Strider, Mauler, and Akuma are all on my short list as well, but I also have Comstar/WoB, mercenary, and Ghost Bear opfors to finish. The C* is only 5 models short of a Level III, the mercs only have 6 lances (not 7), and the Ghost Bears are short 3 'Mechs in their assault Star (A Dire Wolf and a Stone Rhino need some backup, ya know?)

So I've got to balance that out, along with my desire for more Malifaux minis, rounding out my D&D collection, and possibly replacing my Warmachine Cygnar force with some of the lovely art deco Convergence pieces.... and me with no job, yet, and our budget coming to $1500 a month with my wife only earning $1350.

Another thought:  If this is a thought exercise that's got BV/PV balanced battles as a factor, then you almost assuredly want to be using conventional/auxiliary forces as a significant portion of your C3 network.  You simply don't want to put 12 C3 mechs against an even number of non C3 Mechs... it's simply too dramatically over-priced in BV.  Less so in Alpha Strike's PV, but still the best bang-for-the-PV involves pairing mechs with cheaper units to flesh out the network.  if you factor that into in-universe logistics, then your line mech unit may very well not ever intend to operate C3 without incorporating non-organic conventionals... i.e. designing a pure mech 12 unit force is a waste of brainpower if you never intend to actually field a pure mech C3 network...
Well, I pretty much play Alpha Strike exclusively these days - when I CAN play, until last month all of my Battletech stuff had been in storage for over a year - so the points difference is almost nonexistent between vehicles and 'Mechs.

bluedragon7

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 187
I would use the following:
...

Batt. CM* -1, 2, 3 / 2nd CM# - Company COs
* Co CM - 1, 2, 3, / 2nd CM@ - Lance COs, Slaved to Batt
@ Lance CM - 1, 2 and a Non Slave, Slaved to CO

That would not result in a legal network

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
How so?

Batt. CO has dual CM, meaning 1 slave for every Company CO and 1 each to their personal Lancemates.

Each Company has dual CM, meaning 1 slave to their Commander and 1 each their Lance Commanders, the other CM to their Lancemates.

Each Lance has 1 to their Commander and 2 Lancemates with one not connected, usually bodyguard.

Lances cannot connect to other Companies, and Companies cannot use info from other Companies, but the Batt. can coordinate the whole unit.

Batt.- commands Command Lance and Companies via 2nd. CM...
Company- commands Command Lance and two other Lances, communicates via Batt. 2nd. CM to other Companies, cannot use their Lances...
Lance- commands Lance only, communicates via Company CM and no other...

If you've done military, consider it Lance chatter, Company wide chatter and Batt. chatter in that order.

Com CO can call on Batt for info, other Com for info and own Lancemates. Lancemates can only call on Company info , while Batt. can use anyone to where they need it via chain of command.

Scout Lance of Beta calls Beta CO about a target, Beta relays to Batt and asks for A4 support. Batt. commands Charlie CO to commence firing at sector. Beta Scout targets said with TAG....

See now? Not illegal. I just connected three C3 Companies to a Battalion Commander using a second CM via each Company Commander. Each Commander uses a second CM to command their respected companies, with each Lance losing one slave to connection, hence the non-slave bodyguard. The Batt. Commander uses their 2nd. CM to communicate with their three C3 Slaves in the Command Lance.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
...
Well, I pretty much play Alpha Strike exclusively these days - when I CAN play, until last month all of my Battletech stuff had been in storage for over a year - so the points difference is almost nonexistent between vehicles and 'Mechs.

Well, if we're migrating away from a discussion on in-universe doctrine and towards a discussion on meta doctrine, I have some additional thoughts to add:

Tanks vs Mechs:  I gotta disagree with you and insist there is a difference in PVs when you're looking at the stats relevant to why you're picking the unit.  Take for example a niche of a bruiser of a hitter for your network.  If you use a big bad Akuma, you're north of 50 points.  OTOH if you take a MRM Demolisher, you get more firepower that still costs 67% of what the Akuma would.  Granted, any tank is less durable than a mech of its league, but the PV difference for the hitting power is substantially less.  Granted the Akuma has a ton more armor than the Demolisher and that's why you're paying more... but tanks are still inherently cheaper than mechs.  Take a look at the perfectly solid-but-not-stellar Manticore C3S.  C3S Mechs for the exact same 30PV are all smaller and deficient to the Manticore's statline, except being faster and obviously mechs and therefore enjoying those inherent type advantages.  And when it comes to buying TMM 4 for one or more of your network's spotters, it's usually cheaper to do with a CV than a mech.  Granted some mechs with TMM3 and jumping can be priced similarly to TMM4 hovers, but there's very few options for a mech that can hit TMM4 (or 3+J) while still being priced as low as a Crow C3 spotter.  So anyway, putting this in perspective:  I'm not saying mechs are obsolete in C3... just that if you want to wring the most PV value out of your C3 force, you'll want to use some vees.  Of course, if one is playing a BV balanced game, just pay for skill upgrades instead.  Absolutely no reason at all to even bring C3 to a BV balanced game.

More thoughts on maximizing PV investment in C3:  In AS, C3 is priced to be 50% of a skill upgrade.  Even at that discount, it's arguable as to whether a C3 enhancement is a better buy than just getting a skill upgrade for the unit which can't be cancelled by ECM or C3M loss.  I feel that there's a critical mass for C3 in an AS game, and that's the magic number 1/3.  That is, you don't have any business making more than 1/3 of your force C3 networked.  In a lance sized game, you don't use C3.  In a company sized game, you don't go past 1 C3M.  Only if you're doing a full battalion sized game would you ever field a full 12 unit network.  2/3 of your force uses skill upgrades instead of C3, and your force won't be utterly screwed by just 2-3 ECM units showing up.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2018, 18:06:20 by Tai Dai Cultist »

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
More thoughts on maximizing PV investment in C3:  In AS, C3 is priced to be 50% of a skill upgrade.  Even at that discount, it's arguable as to whether a C3 enhancement is a better buy than just getting a skill upgrade for the unit which can't be cancelled by ECM or C3M loss.  I feel that there's a critical mass for C3 in an AS game, and that's the magic number 1/3.  That is, you don't have any business making more than 1/3 of your force C3 networked.  In a lance sized game, you don't use C3.  In a company sized game, you don't go past 1 C3M.  Only if you're doing a full battalion sized game would you ever field a full 12 unit network.  2/3 of your force uses skill upgrades instead of C3, and your force won't be utterly screwed by just 2-3 ECM units showing up.
It's priced to be 50% of a one-point upgrade in skill, and even at medium range is worth two - meaning that it's at 25% of its average effect in game. If you can get a unit (preferably with ECM) into Short range and have multiple units at LONG range with high Long damage, you're at a +4 for every single one of those units. Oh, and look at all the shiny C3M units with Long 3 or better... hell, I made a guide for it too.

Yeah, slightly off track for how the thread started about in-universe, but it IS fun to discuss, even if we disagree. :D

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
How so?
No more than 12 Mechs may operate in a C3 Network, period.

bluedragon7

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 187
How so?
You can only connect a maximum of 12 units and in your example each company commander is connected to 10 other units in his company and also connected to the CO and the other two company commanders. If you draw it on a piece of paper you will see, that the company commander will receive C3 data from more than the allowed 11 other units. Neither the use of more than 4 C3M nor the use of multiple C3M in a single unit allow you to exceed the number of 12 units in a network. You will probably now argue that those are separate networks but there is no provision in the rules for a single unit being part of multiple networks.

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Batt CM1- Lance Master to three slaves
Batt CM2- Master to:
             - Company CO1 Slave
             - Company CO2 Slave
             - Company CO3 Slave

1st Company CM1- Batt CO and Company Lances 2 and 3
1st Company CM2- Lance Master to 2, 3 and 4

2nd Company CM1- Batt CO and Company Lances 1 and 3
2nd Company CM2- Lance Master to 2, 3 and 4

3rd Company CM1- Batt CO and Company Lances 1 and 2
3rd Company CM2- Lance Master to 2, 3 and 4

Each Company uses 1 CM for Tactical control, and 1 for Strategic control. Each Lance has a Master connected to 2 Slaves with the 3rd Slave connected to the Company CO. Company CO has same set up, but their connected to each Company and slaved to Batt. Co, who has another CM for their Lance.

I understand where your coming from with the 12 max. Lances only connect to Lance CO and 2 Slaves with the 4th member non, while the CM2 has 3 connections, 1 to Lance CO and 2 to Company mates. Each Company CO is then further connected via their CM2 to each other and Batt CO, whose Lancemates share their intel in a separate CM.

It sounds like I'm abusing the system, but I am not.

Batt CM1- M, 3S
Batt CM2- Batt M, C1-3 slaved

C1 CM1- C M, Batt / C2-3 slaved
C1 CM2- C M, L2-4 slaved

C2 CM1- C M, Batt / C2-3 slaved
C2 CM2- C M, L2-4 slaved

C3 CM1- C M, Batt / C2-3 slaved
C3 CM2- C M, L2-4 slaved

Each Company has 7 connections, while the Batt has the same. I'm not using more than that.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
It is a hard maximum. 12 mechs in a c3 network. And no, you cannot combine different networks in the same mech.

Your batt co could have a lance in each of his 3 companies, with one being short one for him, but you would not have proper company networks.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Since when?

Battalion is connected to 3 Company Commanders on 1 CM and 3 slaves via another CM.
Each Company is connected to a two Lances and the Battalion via 1 CM and THEN connected via another CM to their slaves.
Each Lance is connected to the Company Commander and 2 slaves via 1 CM and with another non-slaved unit.

Each CM is allowed 3 connections... Lances use 3 ( 1 being Slave/Master to Company ), Company uses CM 1 to Master 2 Lances and connects to Batt slave, CM2 is used for their Lance. Batt uses 3 ( 1 being Master to 3 Companies ) and CM2 is used as Master to 3 slaves of it's own.

Each CM uses 7 total connections.  No where does it forbid me from having each and every CM from not connecting to one another. As long as it stops before 12.

Just like the RL Military Chain of Command. Batt CO uses 1 for tactical ( CM1 to 3 slaves ) and 1 for strategic ( CM2 to 3 Company ). Now each Company CO uses 1 for tactical ( CM1 to 3 slaves ) and 1 for strategic ( CM2 to 2 Lance CO and Batt. CO ). Each Lance CO uses a single CM for tactical ( CM to 2 slaves and Company CO ) and has a non slave bodyguard.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

ravensword

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 199
Since when?

Total Warfare p. 132, bottom of the second column:

Quote
...the C3 network can never be extended beyond 12 units.

Also, p. 133 indicates that the only possible configurations are those laid out in the diagrams on p.132.

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
But I'm not.

Each Tier uses 7 max.

Batt CO cannot use a Lance slaved to another to target.
Company CO cannot use a Lance not slaved to it for a target.
Lance Co cannot use another Lance's Target, unless TAG is involved. ( Which case TAG is universal. )

I was just talking out loud and realized I was wrong.

Batt CM1 talks to 3 Company CO.
Batt CM2 talks to it's Lancemates.

Company CM1 talks to Batt. and 2 Company CO's.
Company CM2 talks to 2 Lances and a Lancemate.
Company has 2 Lancemates NON-SLAVEd.

Each Lance CM talks to Company CO and 2 Lancemates.
Lance has 1 Lancemate NON-SLAVEd.

TT
« Last Edit: 15 January 2018, 21:13:47 by truetanker »
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
@TT - I believe your premise is that 1 Mech can be included in more than 1 network. I think it is implicit in the rules that this is not allowed, but you should raise a rules query if you want Word of God confirmation.

I think its doubtful they'll allow it though, pal. C3 rules have been enshrined for years and years now.

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Just did and Xotl moved it to proper spot.

Thanks Xotl!

Now to wait....

Other than that question, I hope we can get a proper answer.

Now how would the DCMS use Naval C3? I've always wondered, as everybody else has it by now.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
It's priced to be 50% of a one-point upgrade in skill, and even at medium range is worth two - meaning that it's at 25% of its average effect in game. If you can get a unit (preferably with ECM) into Short range and have multiple units at LONG range with high Long damage, you're at a +4 for every single one of those units. Oh, and look at all the shiny C3M units with Long 3 or better... hell, I made a guide for it too.

Yeah, slightly off track for how the thread started about in-universe, but it IS fun to discuss, even if we disagree. :D

I don't know that we're actually disagreeing... I was saying that in comparing the advantage given by C3 to the advantage given by skill improvements that it's arguable as to which is better, given their pricings.  C3 gives a better bonus, yes.  However it only gives it some of the time, whereas the skill improvement is a smaller bonus, but you never get it denied to you.

C3's advantage being as easy as it is to negate (and end up with dead PVs) I don't think it's wise force building strategy to go beyond 1/3 of your force using C3.  Going beyond that and you have too many PVs in the C3 basket.  Too much risk for the reward.

Now how would the DCMS use Naval C3? I've always wondered, as everybody else has it by now.

Well the DCMS doesn't use any Naval C3.  What with the DCA owning and operating all Kuritan WarShips and DropShips and all :D

However that pedantry aside... we don't know a ton about Kuritan black navy ops.  We don't know a ton about any black navies given the game is focused squarely on the mechs...  But we do have some light on DCA NC3.  Taihous and Achilles 3088s are key point units.  There never were enough WarShips to have a blanket doctrine for NC3... any WarShips that may have had it would have been one-offs. AFAIK the only other canonical NC3 ship is the Nekohono'o SCL PWS, which unfortunately only has semi-official stats via megamek.  But using those stats, that'd be the ship class the Taihous and Achilles' are spotting for.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13011
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
I guess I'm not understanding what TT is saying.

The maximum # of units in a C3 Network is 12. 
Its been that way since TRO3050 came out in 1990?
Also as stated, you can't have a mech connected to more than 1 network.

How are you connecting to only 7 units?

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13011
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
I regards to the OP I'm of the opinion that it varies from unit to unit but I very much doubt that there is even 1 battalion in the DC that is fully equipped w/ C3 networks for every company.

Its probably more like a single company in a battalion of the regiment with some lance sized units scattered in other battalions.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
Memory lane time.

Battletech compendium (revised), 1994. Ore harmony gold lawsuit (1st one)


 Page 114

"The complexity required to coordinate actions using this system limits any network to twelve mechs."

 And page 115: "different networks cannot share coordinating abilities during a battle"
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
I guess I'm not understanding what TT is saying.

The maximum # of units in a C3 Network is 12. 
Its been that way since TRO3050 came out in 1990?
Also as stated, you can't have a mech connected to more than 1 network.

How are you connecting to only 7 units?

There are TWO networks, Dual C3Masters.

Command C3 connects Batt. CM to Company CO's ( 3 ) for Strategic control.
Regular C3 connects Company CO CM to Lance CO's ( 2 ) and a Company Lancemate for Tactical control, leaving 2 NOT connected.
Lance CO CM connects to Lance only.

12 Mechs in a Company, BUT only CO, his bodyguard and the Lance CO's are connected via Dual CM1. CM2 is regular for Lance CO. Now add another CM to Batt to Command the Companies, he also gets a Dual CM1, CM2 for his lance command.

Where I got the 7 from?

1) Battalion Commander + Lancemates ( 4 )
1) Battalion Commander + 3 Company Commanders  ( 4 )
1) Company Commander + Lancemate + 2 Lance Commanders ( 4 )
1) Lance Commander + Company Commander + 2 Lancemates ( 4 )

It's less than 3 players from one to the other.

Batt CO asks for sitrep, Company C, Bravo Lance has a target. Quick! Call in Alpha's 2nd Lance with A4 support. Company B's Alpha Lance will TAG while Company C's Bravo provides over watch.

In other words, run a complete set of networks separate from the norm. C3 is allowed up to 12 per Company, correct. But by adding a second C3M to the mix, you can get Battalion to coordinate the battle from afar, Strategically.

I'm NOT sharing Info, just that the second network is for Command purposes only. Telling where to go and what's up.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
From TRO 3085 - A typical DCMS assault dropship squadron consists of Taihous, Nekohono'os, Achilles, and Okinawas. As usual we can presume dropship squadrons would normally comprise 3 or 6 dropships, carried on either an Invader or Star Lord. However larger task forces are obviously doable, and not out of the possibility because a Naval C3 system links up to 6 units.

Hence at the absolute upper end of the scale, a fully-equipped attack dropship squadron probably comprises 6 NC3-linked assault dropships plus 1-2 Okinawas or even a Vengeance providing fighter support. However in TRO 3085 it is noted fully-linked squadrons are "rare"... not nonexistent, mind.

I regards to the OP I'm of the opinion that it varies from unit to unit but I very much doubt that there is even 1 battalion in the DC that is fully equipped w/ C3 networks for every company.

Its probably more like a single company in a battalion of the regiment with some lance sized units scattered in other battalions.
Per FM DCMS the 22nd Dieron has "twelve C3 networks" and is noted as 1 of the best-supplied units in this regard in the DCMS. Even the 1st Genyosha doesn't have that many C3 nets.

I'm NOT sharing Info, just that the second network is for Command purposes only. Telling where to go and what's up.
But what's the point of this? C3 is for shared targeting. Comms is free. In fact I think one would get better value from installing Communications Equipment rather than C3 Masters.

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Look in other words, Command ( Batt CO ) tells Company A to provide support on the Command Channel for Company Cs push. The CO of A Com. tells 2nd Lance CO to fire off those A4 @ Sector 7, fire for effect. Company B's Alpha Lance runs around TAGing everything in preparation of an incoming barrage, the over watch, C Com., patrols the outer flanks looking for targets that might escape.

IN NO WAY did the Batt Lance unit CONTROL or provided INFO sharing on the Battlefield, other than Command from a radio. They DIDN'T use more than a radio ( fluff IC ) action. BUT if need be, the Company Commander CAN come to the aid of the Battalion IF NEED BE. But their respected Companies CANNOT!!!

Unless they are supporting with standard weapons, or in special cases like A4.

ECM is ALWAYS on....
TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
But what's the point of this?

Point is this, Commanders of C3 Companies control Lances of 4 units. Battalion Commanders control Companies of 3 twelve units. BUT cannot use C3 to communicate with them? Please.

It's like : We got Radio sir! Cool! Let's talk to HQ. No can do sir, Radio is for Company use only, we have to hand wave HQ sir.

Really?

I'm out, will wait for answer.
Thank you very much...

Truetanker

Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
From TRO 3085 - A typical DCMS assault dropship squadron consists of Taihous, Nekohono'os, Achilles, and Okinawas. As usual we can presume dropship squadrons would normally comprise 3 or 6 dropships, carried on either an Invader or Star Lord. However larger task forces are obviously doable, and not out of the possibility because a Naval C3 system links up to 6 units.

Hence at the absolute upper end of the scale, a fully-equipped attack dropship squadron probably comprises 6 NC3-linked assault dropships plus 1-2 Okinawas or even a Vengeance providing fighter support. However in TRO 3085 it is noted fully-linked squadrons are "rare"... not nonexistent, mind.

I'll take this opportunity to toot an old thread where I explored this very thing.  Obviously it's fan created/noncanonical but it's all rooted in canon.

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
Point is this, Commanders of C3 Companies control Lances of 4 units. Battalion Commanders control Companies of 3 twelve units. BUT cannot use C3 to communicate with them? Please.

It's like : We got Radio sir! Cool! Let's talk to HQ. No can do sir, Radio is for Company use only, we have to hand wave HQ sir.

Really?

I'm out, will wait for answer.
Thank you very much...

Truetanker

Not quite. More those 12 (company) are sharing live targeting data and sensor data on all they can see. An assault mech comes over the hill.

CM after movement: on the comms asked batt for 2 a4 rounds to grid a7 (17 hex diameter bubble), and directa his tag units to get in range next the.

C3 coordinates direct. Fire on the mech.

Next turn: after movement, c3 lefts 2 of the Masters make tag shots at it with low target numbers. A4 missiles then streak in and wreck it, directed by the tag (no c3 needed).

C3 is a tactical system for the local battlefield. Hq comms is a strategic system for coordination of later support and artillery
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
I don't know that we're actually disagreeing... I was saying that in comparing the advantage given by C3 to the advantage given by skill improvements that it's arguable as to which is better, given their pricings.  C3 gives a better bonus, yes.  However it only gives it some of the time, whereas the skill improvement is a smaller bonus, but you never get it denied to you.

C3's advantage being as easy as it is to negate (and end up with dead PVs) I don't think it's wise force building strategy to go beyond 1/3 of your force using C3.  Going beyond that and you have too many PVs in the C3 basket.  Too much risk for the reward.
I'm exactly the opposite - it's all or nothing. Either you go into C3, and have plenty of ECM/C3BSS to make sure your connections aren't interrupted, or have several scout units available so they have to decide which ONE they cover with an ECM bubble.

And don't forget core Alpha Strike doctrine: ALWAYS move your fast units LAST, and your slow units FIRST, making it a game of prediction as to where they'll need to place the bubbles.

And, hell, even if you can't get short range, going from Long to Medium range modifiers is STILL a skill bonus of +2.

From what I can glean on the International Alpha Strike Players group, 400 PV seems standard - I preferred 500, but here's what I'd do with 400, though not necessarily with my collection:

FIRST LANCE
Naginata NG-C3B
Locust LCT-5W2
Banshee BNC-8S
Blackjack BJ2-OB

SECOND LANCE
Atlas AS7-CM
Hermes HER-4K
Whitworth WTH-2A
Hatchetman HCT-5K

THIRD LANCE
Schiltron Mobile Fire-Support Platform Prime (Skill 5)
Yasha VTOL (Standard)
Yasha VTOL (Standard)
Mantis Light Attack VTOL (ECCM)

I'm not sure I like the compromises in ECM coverage or long-range firepower, and the Schiltron is Skill 5, but it's still got 6 units with a Long of 2+, dual ARTAIV, four sources of ECM (three of which move at 22"+, and one of which moves at 10" and has A/S 10/4!)

Unless someone purpose-takes a force with 5-8 sources of ECM just to counter your force, you should be OK - and if is someone is enough of a jerk to do so, feel free to devise another list that doesn't use C3 at all.

Now, how would I go sub-400 with my own stuff... time to take a think around the subject...

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
I'm exactly the opposite - it's all or nothing. Either you go into C3, and have plenty of ECM/C3BSS to make sure your connections aren't interrupted, or have several scout units available so they have to decide which ONE they cover with an ECM bubble.

See, in my experience it's not ECM that denies you your C3 bonus... it's C3M destruction.  Any TMM1 unit that makes itself a priority target to the enemy is required to either break LOS and hide, or accept being destroyed (and in all likelihood, in only 1 round).  And C3Ms are automatically priority targets.  Unfortunately, most C3Ms are on TMM1 platforms....

If I were to take an all-C3 force, I'd use Schiltrons and a Strider-M for my masters.  The former can lob artillery while hiding outside LOS, and the latter combines decent TMM with being cheapcheapcheap.  And being omnis, they all can bear BA as ablative armor.

But if I don't want to play like a munchkin and instead use the wide variety of stuff the DCMS has available for use, yeah I find it just doesn't pay to go all in for an advantage that's just going to end up getting turned off/negated.  I'd rather pay slightly more for the smaller but more dependable skill bonus for the bulk of my "force enhancement budget".

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
List of TMM2+ units with C3M for DCMS:

Mechs: Bishamon (3), Daimyo, Komodo, Scorpion, Grand dragon, Strider (C3Boosted master x2)
Vees: Skulker, Maxim (dual master)

No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
See, in my experience it's not ECM that denies you your C3 bonus... it's C3M destruction.  Any TMM1 unit that makes itself a priority target to the enemy is required to either break LOS and hide, or accept being destroyed (and in all likelihood, in only 1 round).  And C3Ms are automatically priority targets.  Unfortunately, most C3Ms are on TMM1 platforms....

If I were to take an all-C3 force, I'd use Schiltrons and a Strider-M for my masters.  The former can lob artillery while hiding outside LOS, and the latter combines decent TMM with being cheapcheapcheap.  And being omnis, they all can bear BA as ablative armor.

But if I don't want to play like a munchkin and instead use the wide variety of stuff the DCMS has available for use, yeah I find it just doesn't pay to go all in for an advantage that's just going to end up getting turned off/negated.  I'd rather pay slightly more for the smaller but more dependable skill bonus for the bulk of my "force enhancement budget".
Which is what my Ghost Bears are for - there's nothing quite like a Skill 2 Stone Rhino and Dire Wolf working in concert to deal out 4 point lovetaps at Long range while a Gladiator closes in for some 7-point brutality, and a pair of Dasher-H's fly in to drop off Bearhunter Gnomes and backstab. With my Comstar stuff I tend to use C3i a fair bit because it's an interesting technology with a different style of play even than C3. My mercs... tend to be what I pick up when a friend wants to use one of the other three styles of play.

At least, back when I had the chance to play a lot. *sigh*

On the one hand, while it's nice that Battletech has no real 'faction differences' in the way that the models are allowed in the RULES - especially with how Battlemechs can be handwaved away as salvaged or purchased even across enemy factions - it's also nice to have some definition of what and what not a given faction is good at.

Ice_Trey

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 671
A suggestion, not from the lore side of things but from the player side.
When I first started out planning my first 'mech army, I didn't have access to Tech Manual to see how to do calculations for C3 Networks. What I wish I had known was that for every mech linked to a C3 net, each of those mechs bump their collective battle value up by five percent.
That means a C3 lance network is 20% more expensive, and a C3 Company network is 60% more expensive.

Simply cutting the network down to three separate lances will save you a lot of Battle Value, and limiting your dependence on C3 Nets to one lance per company will make the BV costs negligible. Keep in mind before you make a force that especially by the time that the Fedcom Civil War rolls around, ECM is a dime a dozen. Consider how much BV your force is worth before and after networking it, because that's the difference in force strength you'll be feeling if there's two or more ECM units on the other side, or even if there's significant cover (like in urban combat).

It's a pretty big wakeup call when you find out that your 17000 BV company balloons up to 27000 bv when fully networked, especially when your opponent brings 27000 BV worth of units, including a number of fast ECM harassers.

Col Toda

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2943
Having your whole unit Is wasteful in BV . Any artillary unit like the O-Bakemono is pointless  . Elite pilots  is wasteful as well . I field about have C3 lance only never company level as it kills too much tonnage with the double master . Bang for the C bill and maximizing the BV . Is key .

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13011
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
List of TMM2+ units with C3M for DCMS:

Mechs: Bishamon (3), Daimyo, Komodo, Scorpion, Grand dragon, Strider (C3Boosted master x2)
Vees: Skulker, Maxim (dual master)

This limited selection is one of my biggest pet peeves with C3.

Where is the Firestarter-O with C3M to lead Recon lances in 3058.
Where is the BlackHawk-KU-O with C3M to lead Cavalry lances in 3058.

Early C3M was almost exclusively on BIG-SLOW assault units.
Even today almost years after it was introduced the selection of Fast C3M, or Fast NARC for that matter, are both woefully under represented in cannon.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Well there is a canonical Black Hawk-KU C3M configuration.  But the appropriateness of fielding "personal" omnimech configurations as if they were as generally available as stock configurations is debatable.

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
This limited selection is one of my biggest pet peeves with C3.

Where is the Firestarter-O with C3M to lead Recon lances in 3058.
Where is the BlackHawk-KU-O with C3M to lead Cavalry lances in 3058.

Early C3M was almost exclusively on BIG-SLOW assault units.
Even today almost years after it was introduced the selection of Fast C3M, or Fast NARC for that matter, are both woefully under represented in cannon.
That was the C3 thinking back then. Give C3 to the damage dealers rather than the fast movers.

The focus in the DCMS also was on Omni-flexibility rather than C3 nets.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
This limited selection is one of my biggest pet peeves with C3.

Where is the Firestarter-O with C3M to lead Recon lances in 3058.
Where is the BlackHawk-KU-O with C3M to lead Cavalry lances in 3058.

Early C3M was almost exclusively on BIG-SLOW assault units.
Even today almost years after it was introduced the selection of Fast C3M, or Fast NARC for that matter, are both woefully under represented in cannon.
Where is the Timber Wolf with C3 config is the real question.

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Where is the Timber Wolf with C3 config is the real question.
Timber Wolf Z

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13011
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Well there is a canonical Black Hawk-KU C3M configuration.  But the appropriateness of fielding "personal" omnimech configurations as if they were as generally available as stock configurations is debatable.

Yeah, I knew about that one, but it didn't show up for a long time.
That said, if there is a RS for it, I use it if I have to to fill a hole in the TO&E for Cavalry-Master :)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13011
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Where is the Timber Wolf with C3 config is the real question.

Meh, that kind of cheese was some Wolf Dragoon fan made stuff from the old Mechforce group, IIRC.

I'd never stick C3M on a Timby anyway, not enough room with its Crits to waste on something so big.
Maybe C3S if it was the loan captured clan omni in a DC unit that had C3 for the rest of the mechs, but that is a rare occurrence.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
I'm going to set aside meta doctrine and go back to in-universe doctrine.  I'll be making the same argument I made upthread that the DCMS just patches ad-hoc C3 networks together immediately before battle rather than deploying units with pre-arranged network assignments, but I'll be doing it in a new way.

If we look at a 4 unit C3 (sub)network, from a technical standpoint it's required to have a C3M.  Beyond that, the three slaves can be anything.  But for maximum effectiveness, you'll want some mix of spotter(s) and heavy damage dealer(s).  If you're scaling up to a full company size network, you're looking at exactly 4 Masters and either 8 or 9 slaves, depending on which of the 4 legal configurations you're using.  While the Master units can contribute some firepower, you'll still be wanting limit their vulnerabilities (and therefore opportunities) and so of the 8 or 9 slaves you'll still want a decent number of not just spotters but also damage-dealers.  I'm convinced that it's a good idea in the game (and therefore in in-universe doctrine) you'll want to split your available slaves as close to evenly between spotters and damage-dealers as possible.  You need as many spotters as possible because if you're able to keep your Masters from being popped or jammed, then your spotters certainly will be the target instead.  If you're losing a spotter per turn, you'll want at least 4 spotters to keep the network going over the course of the impactful part of a game.  And of course you need as many damage-dealers as possible, or else the whole C3 advantage is moot.

So if we have 4 spotters, 4 damage dealers, and 4 C3M units in the network, that's pretty neatly a Recon/Skirmisher lance, a Battle/Fire lance, and a Command/Assault lance.  No need to figure out how to fit a C3M unit into a recon or pursuit lance, or to figure out how to fit a spotter into each coterminous lance/C3 subnetwork.

Of course, the above is describing Configuration 1 where there are no dual C3 Master units in the network.  If you do have one and you use Configuration 2, then you have a spare slave.  An extra damage dealer is probably the way to go, but certainly not cut and dried.  Either another spotter or another damage dealer can work.  The strength of C3 is that it's strategically fungible... if you assign 3 slaves to one Master there's absolutely no requirement they have to retain that relationship in the next battle.

So maybe your battalion that's able to field a company sized C3 network actually has more than 4 C3Ms in the bn, and/or 10 or more slave units.  Plug and play the network as you'll need it for your impending battle.. that's how it's meant to work!  Besides, having a few "extra" C3 mechs across the battalion allows you to absorb some attrition and still field full sized networks during the campaign.  Of course, if you do have 5C3Ms and 12 slaves, you simply can't prearrange their network relationships.  It's just not technically possible.

Another thing to factor for in-universe considerations is what else the DCMS has in abundance besides C3.... Omnis.  C3 configurations 3 and 4 are not even possible given canonical designs (requiring a triple and quadruple C3Master, respectively) but in-universe, you're not limited to tournament-approved configurations.  if you've got 9 C3S units on hand but no C3M... put 4 of them in a Sunder and BAM instant company-sized network is possible!  The fact that Omnis are a thing and is reason enough alone for me to feel confident that in-universe they don't pre-arrange their C3 relationships.  Any Omni is automatically capable of filling in at any needed part of the network.

Edit:
Another thought about C3:  In Alpha Strike it does something else that isn't represented in Total Warfare/BattleMech Manual... it helps with Battlefield Intelligence.  The MHQ special is giving you a benefit even if there's no network.  Looking at in-universe doctrine, it may be more attractive to spread your C3 assets across the regiment rather than concentrating them in one battalion.  Or maybe it's more advantageous to concentrate them for a massive advantage.  I suppose it'd depend on the regiment's CO in question.
« Last Edit: 19 January 2018, 22:56:45 by Tai Dai Cultist »