Author Topic: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs  (Read 3881 times)

Colt Ward

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Running a recent game on MM to resolve a sideshow that will have a impact on my next PC battle, I set Princess to running my allied force (like the bot will in the next battle) while to give my opponents a bit of advantage I ran VTOLs with the few supporting hovertanks.  The city's defenders had 16 VTOLs that IMO the bot was sort of clueless in how to use in past battles . . . so I fluffed the garrison commander as sending them out to oppose my ally's advance.

The Stormhammer force had 19 mechs, mostly heavies, mediums with some assaults and lights.  They also brought two companies of armor, mostly heavy tracks.  Simple scenario, get from one side of the map to the other and the battle would move to the next phase where the Stormhammer force would end up facing the planet's defenders in the outskirts of the city- so a mission kill is as good as a real kill and armor damage would carry over.  The battle area had rolling wooded hills so it was difficult to fully employ the hovers however . . .

The VTOLs stinging around the edges managed to perform.

Real Kill-
Scorpion LT- took enough damage to blow the front before it could withdraw
LRM Carrier (58)- picked on at the end of the column, got slower and then infernos found the fuel tank- BOOM

Mission Kill-
Mars (XL)- immobilized and abandoned, will be recovered
Warhammer IIC 4-  took a lot of shots to the CT, barely damaged elsewhere but took a crit (not TAC) to the gyro, engine and DHS.  Retreated
Legionnaire 2D-  Lost a leg to gauss and cERLL fire, will be recovered
Galleon 102- weapons crits, side open and TC injured, retreated
Light TBolt Carrier- 2 locations open (side/turret), retreated
Brutus (HPPC)- open side, engine destroyed, will be recovered

Interesting Damage-
Hellstar took shots to its rear armor, significantly weakening it and going internal on one side.  Managed to crit a cERPPC in that side torso, which will be huge in the coming battle.
Rifleman 8D took some long range gauss and cERLL damage, pushing its armor into the yellow

The defenders lost
Crow (Export)
Yellow Jacket
2 Hawk Moth II
Mantis
Cavalry- crash landed, Stormhammers would capture


This follows along with other battles involving defenders who hunker down to bleed their attackers as they close in.  One other that comes to mind was the use of conventional fighters loaded with bombs and rockets to make a pass or two against a reinforced company of mechs and armor.  The attackers were going to hit a factory's defenders before any garrison forces could arrive but the airstrike caused enough damage to aid the defenders in repulsing the attack.

But more than CFs, VTOL and hovertanks can definitely fill the role of cavalry sallying from a defended position- they can go out and skirmish with attackers to damage them & slow them down.  They have the speed to get out to the axis of advance, find the enemy, rally and then engage the attackers around the edges.  Even in the face of AA defenses- the Stormhammers had 2 Zhukov (Liao), Marsden IIA (LBX), and the Mars (XL)- the VTOLs still managed to get close to cause damage.  If it had been a purpose constructed VTOL Cavalry Squadron*, then their losses would have been less but perhaps their damage would have been less too.  The VTOLs did manage to spread some armor damage and definitely force the use of ammo try to bring them down.

Should VTOLs & hovertanks as cavalry be part of garrison's defense plan?  What levels of concentration would you want?- a combined lance good?  is a company of one or the other minimum for cavalry?  Was the trade of 5 destroyed and 1 captured VTOL in a cavalry skirmish worth the damage they inflicted?
Colt Ward
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Daryk

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #1 on: 25 February 2018, 15:24:51 »
I think the only thing the VTOLs were missing was artillery to call down.  As far as the damage they inflicted being worth the losses they took, that will depend on the follow on battle.

Colt Ward

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #2 on: 25 February 2018, 17:04:18 »
For note, when the VTOLs & hovertanks escaped off the battleground they had lost around 6k BV though some was in skills.

The Stormhammer force had lost 14k BV to damage & mission-kills, again some of that being in mechwarrior/crew skills.
Colt Ward
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Simon Landmine

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #3 on: 25 February 2018, 17:28:58 »
Sounds like a pretty effective screening force, with that 6k:14k ratio.

(How would you distinguish a 'purpose-built VTOL Cavalry Squadron' from what you fielded?)
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Colt Ward

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #4 on: 25 February 2018, 17:42:29 »
Lol, I hit the done button when the wife said lunch was ready . . .

What I was looking at honestly made one of our oldest VTOLs sort of ideal . . .

The Warrior H7 in all 3 of its versions can work well, effectiveness & options of course changing by era.  For instance, the AC/2 and AC/5 versions using Precision ammo after its introduced would definitely improve their chances of hitting the opposing screen which would be hovertanks, VTOLs and light fast mechs.  I always wondered why we never got a LBX version of the Warrior, gives it a bit extra range and the capability to hunt down other VTOLs.  Around half a million c-bills for the AC types, slightly cheaper than comparative hovertanks.  The -7C costs a bit more, but those LRMs COULD be IDF'd from a different VTOL spotting or they could be loaded with mines to get obstacles in front of a attacker's column which then becomes ripe to artillery or other VTOL/hovertanks with stand off weapons.

And that is the thing IMO, for a VTOL cavalry squadron you want something with stand off weapons- Light Gauss Rifles, ERPPCs, Class 5 ACs, cERLL, maybe PPCs- 18 hexes is the bottom limit.  I think the speed should be 9/14 or better though 8/12 will do in a pinch they just cannot absorb rotor damage.

What survived from the fight and did not take damage were a pair of Donars (cERLL for 25 hex range!), Warrior H-7, pair of Skadi (turrets were nice) and a Hawk Moth (TBolt).  Cavalry and Mantis are nice for Attack Squadrons- they go in like other backstabbers when the enemy hits the Main Line of Resistance, but I lost half my close air support designs and others were damaged since the mechs & armor did not have anything else to shoot at instead.
Colt Ward
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Daryk

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #5 on: 25 February 2018, 17:49:17 »
If your game supports it, the best combination is simply Ferrets with Recon Cameras and as much artillery as you can afford.  Let the Thumpers soften them up, and the Snipers mop up what's left.  Long Toms are nice, but more expensive.

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #6 on: 27 February 2018, 12:25:16 »
Given how Yellow Jackets are maligned in all the VTOL threads I've read, how did they turn out for you? It appears at least a couple slugs connected and did some damage.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #7 on: 27 February 2018, 16:57:09 »
The Jacket did connect, and knowing it had the slow speed I kept it back . . . but it could not back up fast enough to avoid the skirmishers sent forward to shoot at it while trying to stay in mid range of the heavier slower targets that it could get good THN.  I kept if over a lake which also stopped fast mechs from racing up to get a close range.

I think it might be a design that goes into the same battles as the little speedy short range Mantis & Cavalry, where it can hover behind 4/6 heavies and assaults to add to their throw weight.
Colt Ward
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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #8 on: 27 February 2018, 17:52:40 »
The "Have someone scarier standing next to you" defense? I could see that working for Yellow Jackets, on the condition that you use every scrap of speed to make to-hits against them annoying, and the scary buddies are much easier to hit.

...yeah, 4/6 heavies sound about right. Be sure to include a clustergun or two on those heavies, because this strategy will last only as long as it takes for your opponent to try bringing Mantises to a fight - those things are practically purpose-designed to hunt down other VTOLs.
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YingJanshi

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #9 on: 27 February 2018, 18:03:42 »
I never had the chance to test it, but I always thought YJ would shine best on large playing areas (like 3x3 or larger) where they could zip around in the background, only darting into the fight at opportune moments or taking pot shots from long range...

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Colt Ward

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #10 on: 27 February 2018, 18:33:41 »
Two problems with that Ying . . . Yellow Jackets do not zip, they are the Panther in the VTOL group.  Second, its a lot of BV you spend on bringing that Yellow Jacket to the fight, and it has a big gun.

I think the BV trade off I mentioned works for campaign purposes- if it had been a Last Man Standing game, then the CT Warhammer and immobile Mars would not have bailed.
Colt Ward
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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #11 on: 02 March 2018, 23:11:36 »
The Donars should be your go-to VTOL in the future, if you don't have artillery available.  Just stay at long range and plink the enemy forces for the entire map.  If you lose initiative, pull your VTOL out of range.  If you get initiative, just park yourself barely in range of the enemy force and focus fire on  single target to get internal damage.

Also make sure to allocate a few kilos to comfier seats, because pilots told to fly and fight in the standard seats for long hours are going to kick the CO's butt until his/her rear is as sore as the pilots'.

Of course you might get the following conversation:
"Looks like another 3-hour mission of plinking."
"How did-  oh, we got the comfy seats."

For shorter duration missions, buy lots of Arrow IV ammo and let the hawk Moths give plenty of love to whoever is the closest.  Enemy force sends skirmishers?  Draw them away while plinking.  Heavier units follow?  Send and Arrow IV at them to keep them honest.  Make your opponent feel the need to take lots of AMS, because the one without it will be Arrow IV bait.  Combine it with your regular units hardly using LRMs so the AMS is mostly wasted tonnage.

Colt Ward

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #12 on: 03 March 2018, 01:03:54 »
AMS does not stop A4 missiles.  Hawk Moth do not mount them in launchers, Yellow Jackets do however.
Colt Ward
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Cannonshop

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #13 on: 10 March 2018, 21:04:30 »
The Jacket did connect, and knowing it had the slow speed I kept it back . . . but it could not back up fast enough to avoid the skirmishers sent forward to shoot at it while trying to stay in mid range of the heavier slower targets that it could get good THN.  I kept if over a lake which also stopped fast mechs from racing up to get a close range.

I think it might be a design that goes into the same battles as the little speedy short range Mantis & Cavalry, where it can hover behind 4/6 heavies and assaults to add to their throw weight.

the point of the Yellowjacket is to execute pilots you don't want to pay for their skills-by assigning them to the Yellowjacket, or as a means of redistributing Gauss rifles to the enemy through salvage.

yes, folks, it's truly that bad a design, particularl for the era in which it was designed-an era with LBX autocannon and flak rounds for ordinary autocannons, LRMs in excess of the 5 rack, SRM systems larger than 2, vehicles capable of more than 30 KPH cruising, or anywhere with the existence of tall buildings, terrain, hills, trees...

Basically, the Yellowjacket is one of those designs that was more about making sure there were enough spare parts to keep gauss rifles in production, as opposed to something actually intended to be useful for operations in a combat environment-it's designed to arrive at a unit, be taken to the repair bays, and stripped of the actually useful materials which can then be used to repair actually useful equipment when the isolated budget for maintenance runs out but the procurement budget marked "VTOL" is still flush with money.

the reason, is what VTOL units are actually good at, and good for, and what they are neither good at, nor good for.  YJ's can't manuever, they have insufficient speed and poor controllability, paired with a gun that makes them enough of a threat to draw lots of fire they  really can't survive, or evade.

Note: when a hovertank loses motive systems, it becomes a pillbox.  When  a VTOL loses its movement systems (and it's very likely this wILL happen to a Yellowjacket), it becomes a fireball on the ground.  Teh only way to avoid this, is to preferentially use rules developed solely to make the Yellowjacket viable, such as giving the rotors an infinite amount of hitpoints, or not calculating falling damage when (not if) it gets knocked out of the sky.

aside from consistent hellbie dice on the other side, a Yellowjacket's good for one, maybe two shots at the most before it's toast.   (Hellbie dice: You need a 3 to hit, you roll snake-eyes.  Need a 5 to hit, you roll snake eyes, need 11 to hit, you roll snake eyes.  Ask Jadehellbringer what "Hellbie dice" is all about.)

As a long-time 'conventionals' guy from wayyyyyyyyyyyy back when we were playing with Citytech rules and everything came in a cardboard box, through the Comendium, Comendium ROW, Master rules, then into the testing for the current rules, I'll suggest taking almost ANYTHING but a Yellowjacket for a VTOL unit-at least, if your goal is to win the fight, including a ferret (only has a machiengun).

VTOL, more than any other unit in the game, needs to be mobile, and 6/9 isn't mobile enough to be worthwhile.

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Nahuris

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #14 on: 11 March 2018, 06:55:14 »
I'm a huge vehicle fan, and have used them since Citytech as well... i remember the single inferno death dance.......LOL

In the words of Captain Andrew Scarianni, survivor of over a dozen battles in a Yellow Jacket, it is possible to use one, and live....


"Most people put their VToLs up high enough to avoid terrain, and sling shots at thing.... and for the faster ones, that's a fine, albeit, simple, tactic.
The Yellow Jacket is designed for a certain aggressive mindset ..... one that uses it as a pop up gunship, hiding in cover, and making an absolute nuisance of itself via implied threat... when not being the bully of the little guy.  No one wants a Gauss Shell Gift ..... absolutely no one ... you have a weapon that can core a number of light designs, in one shot .... seriously, you can open them up like a canoli at a wedding dinner..... you should only be shooting at bigger mechs or vehicles, when there are no little targets to deal with.. or the hangover from your cousin's wedding makes you stupid .....it's the little guys that are fast enough to come get you, and most of the time, they are limited in long range weapons, by their size. Even fast mediums tend to make trade offs, for the speed. Mind you, Clan tech completely blows this.... but hopefully, the clan pilots will be busy trying to prove their Clanhood on your other elements.
You bully them --- plink the little guys, and take away the opponent's maneuver elements... you use terrain, and hide, and never give the enemy a clear shot at anything like medium range, or closer ..... know your opponents, and understand their mechs... and be a bully on the little guys ..... and above all else, unless the mission is desperate, never try and get into a shootout, with anything....."

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Nahuris
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Cannonshop

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #15 on: 12 March 2018, 18:59:47 »
I'm a huge vehicle fan, and have used them since Citytech as well... i remember the single inferno death dance.......LOL

In the words of Captain Andrew Scarianni, survivor of over a dozen battles in a Yellow Jacket, it is possible to use one, and live....


"Most people put their VToLs up high enough to avoid terrain, and sling shots at thing.... and for the faster ones, that's a fine, albeit, simple, tactic.
The Yellow Jacket is designed for a certain aggressive mindset ..... one that uses it as a pop up gunship, hiding in cover, and making an absolute nuisance of itself via implied threat... when not being the bully of the little guy.  No one wants a Gauss Shell Gift ..... absolutely no one ... you have a weapon that can core a number of light designs, in one shot .... seriously, you can open them up like a canoli at a wedding dinner..... you should only be shooting at bigger mechs or vehicles, when there are no little targets to deal with.. or the hangover from your cousin's wedding makes you stupid .....it's the little guys that are fast enough to come get you, and most of the time, they are limited in long range weapons, by their size. Even fast mediums tend to make trade offs, for the speed. Mind you, Clan tech completely blows this.... but hopefully, the clan pilots will be busy trying to prove their Clanhood on your other elements.
You bully them --- plink the little guys, and take away the opponent's maneuver elements... you use terrain, and hide, and never give the enemy a clear shot at anything like medium range, or closer ..... know your opponents, and understand their mechs... and be a bully on the little guys ..... and above all else, unless the mission is desperate, never try and get into a shootout, with anything....."

(excerpt of NAIS Cadet training... New Avalon, 3068)

Nahuris

The fundamental problem that breaks your concept, is that the Yellowjacket, like all VTOLs, must spend MP to change elevation or turn facing.  this makes canyon carving something you can't afford to do when there's a better than 1 in 30 percent chance of interacting with the ground on a failed PSR (which you will have, if you're flanking and try to turn or change elevation-the PSR that is.)  The Yellowjacket's flight profile means terrain hugging is a no-no, or a terrific way to get your pilot killed by ground clutter, hillsides, buildings, etc.  (you take charging damage if you run into something like a hill when you sideslip.)

a HIGH CRUISE is necessary for nap-of-the-earth attacks, to avoid losing control and sideslipping into a hillside or the trees.  the YJ can't do this job you've outlined without the enemy's express cooperation, because the moment you unmask, you're THE target (if you're crawling along at 'cruise'), and the chance that you will become one with the ground are geometrically better when you're forced to turn, climb, or descend at flank speed.

and what makes first contact, per the sideslip/skidding rules? your motive systems.  which are rotors, and you will lose them, and then, you will crash.

and at low altitude, that means you're giving the enemy  your Polan model A gauss rifle with whatever ammunition you've got on board, and all that expensive armor plating, as salvage.
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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #16 on: 16 March 2018, 10:22:54 »
I believe that you are thinking of keeping a Yellowjacket close to the ground in a different manner then was intended by the other poster. The YJ is not fast for a vtol. It has range and high damage. With other vtols you can have them speed around the map high in the air and use their high movement modifier as protection. With a YJ that's likely going to get it killed unless you can force or find a target in isolation that cannot match the range of the GR.

If you cannot find an isolated target with range less then a GR it would be in the interest of the YJ to use cover as much as possible much as a mech or ground vehicle. You do not need to worry about being shot by X number of units if you can cut off their LOS, or at least find cover that will bump up the to hit number closer to what they would need to hit faster vtols buzzing out in the open.

Nobody says you need to use flank speed. Also no one said that you need to wait until you are about to make a move to have planned it out. That means you can hit flank in open areas right before needing to make a turn, then switch to cruise to make your turn during the next movement phase. The same is true for elevation changes. The YJ is going to require additional thought when compared to other vtols.

My problem with the YJ is that it seems like one of those units that will never, in a standard game, show its full potential that may only be seen in a larger scale game. I'm guessing CampaignOps has the ability to make that happen. A game that is 3x3 or larger would also make it easier for the YJ to shine as it can exert some control on a 2x2, but the smaller size map helps players compensate for failures in positioning and planning.

Nahuris

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #17 on: 18 March 2018, 03:53:51 »
I believe that you are thinking of keeping a Yellowjacket close to the ground in a different manner then was intended by the other poster. The YJ is not fast for a vtol. It has range and high damage. With other vtols you can have them speed around the map high in the air and use their high movement modifier as protection. With a YJ that's likely going to get it killed unless you can force or find a target in isolation that cannot match the range of the GR.

If you cannot find an isolated target with range less then a GR it would be in the interest of the YJ to use cover as much as possible much as a mech or ground vehicle. You do not need to worry about being shot by X number of units if you can cut off their LOS, or at least find cover that will bump up the to hit number closer to what they would need to hit faster vtols buzzing out in the open.

Nobody says you need to use flank speed. Also no one said that you need to wait until you are about to make a move to have planned it out. That means you can hit flank in open areas right before needing to make a turn, then switch to cruise to make your turn during the next movement phase. The same is true for elevation changes. The YJ is going to require additional thought when compared to other vtols.

My problem with the YJ is that it seems like one of those units that will never, in a standard game, show its full potential that may only be seen in a larger scale game. I'm guessing CampaignOps has the ability to make that happen. A game that is 3x3 or larger would also make it easier for the YJ to shine as it can exert some control on a 2x2, but the smaller size map helps players compensate for failures in positioning and planning.

This, along with picking targets on flanks and in places where there is little to no long range return ability ... I pick off Komodos, and other units with limited range, just fine .... Even Clan Nova Primes have gone down as victims..... you do have to pay more attention to what you do, and treat it kind of like a slow Hovertank... but it works fine.

Remember, though if you are going for heavier targets, you are already making a mistake ... but lighter units, with limited long range ability are fair game.

The Yellow Jacket is a bully.... play it like one. Never have a fair fight, and if there is any chance it might be fair, have friends upset the odds.

Nahuris
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Cannonshop

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Re: The VTOL Exchange- Or Defense in depth before hitting Mechs
« Reply #18 on: 21 March 2018, 20:37:50 »
I believe that you are thinking of keeping a Yellowjacket close to the ground in a different manner then was intended by the other poster. The YJ is not fast for a vtol. It has range and high damage. With other vtols you can have them speed around the map high in the air and use their high movement modifier as protection. With a YJ that's likely going to get it killed unless you can force or find a target in isolation that cannot match the range of the GR.

If you cannot find an isolated target with range less then a GR it would be in the interest of the YJ to use cover as much as possible much as a mech or ground vehicle. You do not need to worry about being shot by X number of units if you can cut off their LOS, or at least find cover that will bump up the to hit number closer to what they would need to hit faster vtols buzzing out in the open.

Nobody says you need to use flank speed. Also no one said that you need to wait until you are about to make a move to have planned it out. That means you can hit flank in open areas right before needing to make a turn, then switch to cruise to make your turn during the next movement phase. The same is true for elevation changes. The YJ is going to require additional thought when compared to other vtols.

My problem with the YJ is that it seems like one of those units that will never, in a standard game, show its full potential that may only be seen in a larger scale game. I'm guessing CampaignOps has the ability to make that happen. A game that is 3x3 or larger would also make it easier for the YJ to shine as it can exert some control on a 2x2, but the smaller size map helps players compensate for failures in positioning and planning.

Typically, any VTOL unit is wasted on a small map, and slow units like the YJ have difficulty on large maps.  I've typically gotten best performance on maps of 3x4 and larger, with lots of terrain when using VTOLs, because the VTOL ability to ignore certain types of terrain obstacles and cover ground quickly.  (Which the Yellowjacket tends to fail to do.)

but then, I'm one of those people that in Fan Council games using Megamek, (back during FC'62) brought in ASF support and artillery.  I like big map battles with lots of conventional assets as a counter to someone else's concentrated high-BV forces on a postage-stamp.

because I make a lot of use of flanking attacks and 'picking at the fringes' while my enemy closes...and the Yellowjacket doesn't serve that purpose well.

it isn't mobile enough.

back in the old days, (1990's and early 2000's) I was the "conventional forces guy" in most groups, and I kind of approached it somewhat scientifically, keeping notes on units, how I lost them, and how effective they were before I lost them.

If you're fighting an enemy that isn't urbanmechs (or similar) you're going to have problems using the Yellowjacket that OTHER, earlier, lighter, cheaper, less impressive looking designs have zero problems engaging.

The reason is t he same reason tht faster light 'mechs outperform slower light 'mechs.  Hits that do damage do more damage than misses with higher potential damage, and a shot that misses you does less damage than a machinegun that hits you.

The Yellowjacket sits on one end of a spectrum with the other being occupied by the Cyrano-neither one is actually as effective as the fluff or the developer's devotion insists it should be.  The reasons being different because they represent extremes.

The great commonality being that both designs are over-weight for the role they fill, as a direct result both become unacceptable as combat units.  *(the Cyrano can be hull-killed with an LRM-5, or almost any hit, the Yellowjacket's going to drop from easy rotor hits because it can't NOT get shot down and still influence the battle, though it's more likely to crash due to psr).

In both cases, it's a unit that you have to build your whole strategy and unit around if you don't want it to fail, rather than being a unit that enhances the strategy and other units you're taking onto the map.

on this spectrum, the sweet spot is based on movement/range.  Movement, because even if you're screening b ehind terrain, you need to get to a firing position without becoming one with the map, and range because when you can overlap your medium on someone else's long, at a cruise, you're more likely to inflict SOME damage than to inflict NONE damage.

ON larger maps, with less concentration of units, this becomes radically more apparent.  Some speeds and all you're doing is telegraphing your target to the other side with a Yellowjacket in regular play, and it's not got the 'eyes' to find targets in double-blind.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."