Author Topic: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon  (Read 59568 times)

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #60 on: 06 February 2014, 00:10:23 »
Decent mech actually.  A lance of grand dragons is actually pretty painful.
Especially in 3025.  LRM 10, ML battery, and a PPC on a decently-armored 5/8 frame is hard to ignore; the comment about using them to break up stagnation and stalemates makes me think less of an assault-mindset and more of a feint-and-draw thing.  They're dangerous, but they're also fast, and they've got a solid engagement range for the -1Gs.  You don't need to throw yourself at a strong point, you can simply present a mobile threat to go around and force the stalemating units (usually in the attack, but it works in the defense too) to dislocate.  And at the same time, the lasers, PPC, and LRMs as well as decent armor (for its era) means they can show up and stand in a fight as well.  Kurita's about speed and options.

Also consider these things are likely going to be paired off with Quickdraws, so you've got even more mobility concerns to deal with.  And a lot of fast missile fire, with all those LRM-10s.  Not spectacular firepower, but I digress.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #61 on: 06 February 2014, 00:54:30 »
Just to be clear the Panther is not a DCMS scout mech the Jenner and Spider are. The Panther is a direct suppot mech and hunter mech, it is not a scout.

right the panther is there to give scout lance some fire power but not to do the actual scouting duties.  that job is for the Jenner which is arm for speed and a good deal of short range firepower.    Standard tactic would be to have a panther hide in heavy wood or behind some cover using its PPC range to snipe.  While the jenner work there way around the field searching for prey.  If it they need to they retreat under the cover fire of the panther.

kenahk

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #62 on: 06 February 2014, 07:42:27 »
Anyone had a chance to test out the new Dragon II or is this the wrong place to ask for experiences with that particular mech?

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #63 on: 06 February 2014, 17:57:36 »
I think its worth mentioning, even if its just because the Dragon II is being fluffed as replacing damaged and worn out Dragons.

How it works exactly, since they're replacing a heavy cavalry unit with a artillery unit, I'm not sure.

daeceg

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #64 on: 07 February 2014, 01:24:03 »
Well--the arty unit doesn't have to get nearly as close...

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #65 on: 07 February 2014, 01:49:38 »
I do not care what they say. The Dragon II is not actually a Dragon. It cannot fill the same role. A proper Dragon moves at least 5/8 and if I want a Dragon I will always choose the heavy cavalry mech.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #66 on: 07 February 2014, 06:57:51 »
Well, between the 7K and 10K in the NTNU, there's some pretty decent ones.  Not spectacular; I admit I have one I'd really like to see yet but I'll give it some more thought.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #67 on: 07 February 2014, 19:00:23 »
Grand Dragon II is a new model, but its for commanders and artillery fire support.  A commander shouldn't necessary be leading from the front, unless he expendable.   New GD2 makes that point, Grand Dragon always known for ranged combat, this brings this to a new extreme.

In a pick up game, if its role in combat would be bit limited.  Arrows aren't meant to be used in small Tactical situations, unless your playing HQ Hunters, your mission goal is defend the commander.   

I see the 'Mech useful in large scale conflcits, where their firing off-board, but GD2 would suck for player who only has it as their only ride.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #68 on: 08 February 2014, 15:20:45 »
Well, Arrow IV CAN be fired at an enemy like any other weapon, as long as the opponent is TAG'ed. Of course you have to wait til the next turn to see any affect, but it's a viable tactic.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #69 on: 08 February 2014, 17:52:02 »
Of course you have to wait til the next turn to see any affect

You missed the "...if the target is outside 17 hexes...' part.
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Prince of Darkness

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #70 on: 09 February 2014, 14:32:14 »
You missed the "...if the target is outside 17 hexes...' part.

Ah. Knew I was forgetting something.

Either way, its not always a viable tactic, but in an era populated by several light 'mechs being able to jump 10 hexes it comes up more than I would have thought.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #71 on: 09 February 2014, 14:43:33 »
As a dedicated Capellan player...let me just say: "Yes, you can get a lot of uses out of on-board Arrow IVs".  ;D ;D ;D ;D




But does anyone have any AAR for the new Dragon II? Have yet to use it myself. So curious to hear people's experience with it.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #72 on: 09 February 2014, 17:53:27 »
As a dedicated Capellan player...let me just say: "Yes, you can get a lot of uses out of on-board Arrow IVs".  ;D ;D ;D ;D




But does anyone have any AAR for the new Dragon II? Have yet to use it myself. So curious to hear people's experience with it.

I did! A Dark Age-era grinder recently (run by Paul), I ended up with a Dragon II to start the day... a Dragon II that promptly took a TAC that knocked out the Arrow launcher after only one shot fired. It put up a decent fight for the rest of the day, but part of that was likely that it was just ignored by other players in favor of killing Tundra Wolves and Tian-Zongs instead.

So... I wasn't impressed overall, but I suppose a 3025 player trying a Hunchback for the first time would be a bit underwhelmed if they didn't have the AC-20 to use for their game. ;)
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #73 on: 09 February 2014, 18:41:44 »
I did! A Dark Age-era grinder recently (run by Paul), I ended up with a Dragon II to start the day... a Dragon II that promptly took a TAC that knocked out the Arrow launcher after only one shot fired. It put up a decent fight for the rest of the day, but part of that was likely that it was just ignored by other players in favor of killing Tundra Wolves and Tian-Zongs instead.

So... I wasn't impressed overall, but I suppose a 3025 player trying a Hunchback for the first time would be a bit underwhelmed if they didn't have the AC-20 to use for their game. ;)

Oh...that sucks!!! (I see your awesome good luck was still holding. :D)

That's partly why I tend to shy away from 'Mechs that rely on one BFG. I'd rather have my firepower spread out a bit so one lucky hit won't knock out my combat capability.

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Maelwys

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #74 on: 09 February 2014, 18:48:10 »
Atleast the Dragon II has an ERPPC to back up its Arrow IV, rather than negligible secondary weapons. Though an ERPPC at 60 tons is a bit of a waste when that Arrow IV becomes unusable.

Its still strange to swap standard Grand Dragons/Dragons for the Dragon II, even if you're trying to keep it to commanders.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #75 on: 09 February 2014, 19:31:02 »
Rereading the fluff, it said it was replacing the dated Dragon not the Grand Dragon. Splitting hairs, I know but it's the only that makes sense to me with the DRG-10K upgrade in the 3145 RS
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #76 on: 10 February 2014, 16:29:47 »
Rereading the fluff, it said it was replacing the dated Dragon not the Grand Dragon. Splitting hairs, I know but it's the only that makes sense to me with the DRG-10K upgrade in the 3145 RS

I don´t have any experience with DA Tech yet and can´t say how effective the MRM20 with Apollo FCS and the Anti-Penetrative Ablation really are in practice, but from what I see on the record sheet the DRG-10K is still providing the Dracs with their beloved heavy cavalry models. It is certainly fast enough and a Snubbie never fails to be useful when making sweeping flank movements.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #77 on: 11 February 2014, 01:00:16 »
I have never been a fan of MRMs but from what I heard, MRMs+Apollo FCS is a deadly combo.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #78 on: 11 February 2014, 12:08:21 »
I have never been a fan of MRMs but from what I heard, MRMs+Apollo FCS is a deadly combo.

Apollo doesn't make the MRM.  It's a neat option though, granted.  You trade off the inherent -1 to hit for a penalty to the 'how many missiles hit' column.  IMO, it's worth it on the -30s and -40s that will have an obscene amount of damage with or without a penalty to the cluster roll.. but for the -10s and -20s, it's less clear cut.

With or without Apollo however, they have a degree of synergy with snub-PPCs.  They both have short range brackets that compose a monster's share of their total range capability, allowing them both to be used in very similar situations.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #79 on: 11 February 2014, 13:14:00 »
With or without Apollo however, they have a degree of synergy with snub-PPCs.  They both have short range brackets that compose a monster's share of their total range capability, allowing them both to be used in very similar situations.

Huh?  An MRM launcher's range brackets are 3/8/15, with over half the total range in the long range bracket.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #80 on: 11 February 2014, 13:38:08 »
Huh?  An MRM launcher's range brackets are 3/8/15, with over half the total range in the long range bracket.

Not sure how I got that backwards, but I'll assume you're right since I don't have the books handy.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #81 on: 21 February 2014, 02:30:10 »
What people seem to forget about the DRG-1N is that, while it is somewhat underwhelming in regards to firepower, it's meant to and was used en masse. The old school Dracs used to run these things in pure Companies and Battalions, where sheer numbers made up for their deficiencies. Not to mention that the Dragon was used in place of Medium 'Mechs that other Houses used to run, while heavier 'Mechs like the Archer, Warhammer, Marauder and BattleMaster would be then concentrated in what would be their more traditional roles in Heavy and Assault Lances, Companies and Battalions. Compare them to the most common Medium 'Mechs of their traditional enemies in the Federated Suns: faster and heavier armored than both the Enforcer and Centurion and with superior endurance to both (40 rounds of autocannon ammunition compared to 20 for the Centurion and a very pitiful 10 for the Enforcer), plus greater range and the ability to mostly dictate said range unless in extremely tight terrain. Hell, even against the Lyrans their speed would cause merry hell on their much slower and heavier formations (not to mention poorly led due to the prevalence of "Social Generals"). While they wouldn't be able to last fighting toe-to-toe with them, they could certainly give them a decently bloody nose, or simply skirt around them and hit weaker targets.

The DRG-1G just makes a dangerous 'Mech even worse due to the heavier punch of the PPC. My only beef with it is that, rather than install a third extra heat sink that would allow it to cool down while maintaining a running pace, a second laser was added to the after arc, which would force the pilot to slow down to a walk to cool off after firing both main weapons.

Also, as for that much disparaged aft-mount medium laser(s)? How many 'Mechs mount something facing in that direction? It's there for insurance and peace of mind. While a laser (or two) certainly wouldn't cause a knockout blow, it's enough to actually get some damage in (especially if they're within the minimum range of their autocannon or PPC depending on the model) where most 'Mechs would be unable to respond.

Honestly, back in that era when you should be able to see massed numbers of Dragons, it would have been a very scary prospect simply because of the fact that 1) they're very fast, 2) have very good armor and 3) would be using that speed and fresh, heavy armor in large numbers to hammer already weakened positions caused by their heavier elements or having simply skirted around the main line to hit a weak spot from the flank or even the rear.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #82 on: 21 February 2014, 03:27:06 »
Welcome back Rage!
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #83 on: 21 February 2014, 04:31:34 »
  Glad to see another veteran return to the fold, Rage.  O0  We’ve saved you some hot dice, a cold beer, and a ‘KICK ME’ sign to hang on Hellbie’s back — feel free to use ’em all.  The place just wasn’t quite the same without you.  :D

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #84 on: 21 February 2014, 04:47:00 »
Hey, Rage, awesome to see you're back. You've been missed around here.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #85 on: 21 February 2014, 04:56:36 »
Rage, the Dragon's biggest problem actually comes from the old fluff, it can't generate a cluster bigger then 5, and that's a problem, see my post up thread for full details

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #86 on: 21 February 2014, 07:59:33 »
Rage is back! Hooray! O0

What people seem to forget about the DRG-1N is that, while it is somewhat underwhelming in regards to firepower, it's meant to and was used en masse...

This exactly. A Dragon is annoying and worrisome. A lance of Dragons is a lethal threat. They get even nastier in Alpha Strike, where that 2 damage at range outguns a lot of the medium 'mechs it's pinch-hitting for.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #87 on: 21 February 2014, 11:34:58 »
and in star league times it would have been Companies of Dragon's as a single combat element.. :)

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #88 on: 21 February 2014, 13:00:17 »
Thanks for the warm welcome, guys  :)

Rage, the Dragon's biggest problem actually comes from the old fluff, it can't generate a cluster bigger then 5, and that's a problem, see my post up thread for full details

No, I understand what you mean. Still, it's comparable to the old Shadow Hawk of the same era which, despite its equally underwhelming armament and general sucktitude, remains (at least in the fluff) a ludicrously highly regarded BattleMech that sees heavy use from every other House. Of course, that's why old Takashi the Rat decided to swap out the old autocannon for a more powerful PPC. ;)

Still, the firepower isn't as bad as you'd think, if only because armor tended to suck back then (case in point the Rifleman, Warhammer and Marauder). An average of 11 damage a turn is still around 3/4 a ton blown off every 10 seconds and it's not like the Dragon would be fighting alone to begin with.  Most Medium 'Mechs it would mostly be sent to fight lack heavy armor, and those that don't are either grossly outranged and/or too slow to counter the Dragon's range advantage, have crippling heat problems or have the same issue with being able to deal damage. As for Heavies, unless the Tai-i in charge of the Lance is a complete and utter moron, he'd try to lure a single 'Mech away and pound it to scrap then rinse and repeat.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: DRG-*** Dragon/Grand Dragon
« Reply #89 on: 21 February 2014, 13:13:32 »
Thanks for the warm welcome, guys  :)

No, I understand what you mean. Still, it's comparable to the old Shadow Hawk of the same era which, despite its equally underwhelming armament and general sucktitude, remains (at least in the fluff) a ludicrously highly regarded BattleMech that sees heavy use from every other House. Of course, that's why old Takashi the Rat decided to swap out the old autocannon for a more powerful PPC. ;)

Still, the firepower isn't as bad as you'd think, if only because armor tended to suck back then (case in point the Rifleman, Warhammer and Marauder). An average of 11 damage a turn is still around 3/4 a ton blown off every 10 seconds and it's not like the Dragon would be fighting alone to begin with.  Most Medium 'Mechs it would mostly be sent to fight lack heavy armor, and those that don't are either grossly outranged and/or too slow to counter the Dragon's range advantage, have crippling heat problems or have the same issue with being able to deal damage. As for Heavies, unless the Tai-i in charge of the Lance is a complete and utter moron, he'd try to lure a single 'Mech away and pound it to scrap then rinse and repeat.

THE Rage?  Oh my...

 

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