Official height (dimensions) of Mechs and Vehicles?

[Cergorach]

The official height of a Mech has always been a discussion point, some official products have given different heights for certain Mechs, licenced products (like computer games) have given a plethora of conflicting heights for Mechs, and the official miniatures are so out of scale that it isn't funny. The thing that binds most official direct sources of height is that almost all of them are pretty old. So now enter the "General Size Comparison Chart" from Technical Readout: 3039 (2009), that's pretty recent.

We have a couple of Mechs from the different weight classes, Vehicles from the various weight classes, a couple of Dropships (Leopard, Union, Overlord) and a 'standard' man. If we measure the 'standard' man at ~1.8m tall (and the height of the Dropships confirms that approximation) we get heights for the Mechs listed.

Mechs (height)
Light => Commando (25 ton) = 9m
Medium => Enforcer (50 ton) = 12m
Heavy => Grashopper (70 ton) = 14m
Assault => Banshee (95 ton) = 15.2m

Vehicles (length)
Light => J. Edgar Light Hover Tank = 4.7m
Medium => Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun = 6.9m
Heavy => Rommel Tank = 8.6m
Assault => Banshee = 9.5m

Now we all know that the IWM and RPE miniatures aren't to scale, but a lot of us thought that the Armorcast 1:60 (advertised) were to scale:
Atlas (100 ton) => 10.5" (26.5cm) = ~16m
Mad Cat (75 ton) => 8.25" (21cm) = ~12.5m
Vulture (60 ton) => 8.25" (21cm) = ~12.5m

I could believe the height of 16m for the Atlas it's 100 tons (5 tons heavier then the Banshee), so I can explain the 0.8m extra. The Mad Cat and the Vulture are pretty much the same size, which isn't all that strange because they have the same underchassis (at least visually). The Madcat discrepancy (when compared to the grasshopper) could be explained due to the being bird legs, the Vulture is pretty hard to explain imho (with 15 ton difference in weight). So a 20 ton Locust could be half the size of a 100 ton Atlas according to these figures.

The question is how 'cannon' are these drawings, the extracted heights and how comfortable are you with these heights in your game?

[Jim1701]

I try not to think about it to much.  Even more so when the subject is infantry carriers. 

[A. Lurker]

I try not to think about it to much.  Even more so when the subject is infantry carriers.

We're talking about a tech level at which a hundred and more missiles can fit into a single one-ton ammo bin and be casually fed from their location in, say, a side torso to their launcher on the wrist of a fully-modelled arm.

Storing a few PBIs whose bodies are considerably less rigid to begin with should be child's play by comparison. :D

[Cergorach]

When imagining the Battletech universe (or any sci-fi setting) it isn't how things work that are the problem, it's how things look that is the issue. The writers are imagining things that haven't been invented yet and often don't have the technical know how to know if something is feasible or not. When something as simple as size keeps shifting from 3 to 5+ stories in height it gets a bit difficult to concentrate ;-)

The clown car infantry transports are imho a bigger eyesore then the missile issue. A Chinook carries 33-55 men (two IS infantry platoons are 56 men) and is 30m long...

[OverKill]

When imagining the Battletech universe (or any sci-fi setting) it isn't how things work that are the problem, it's how things look that is the issue. The writers are imagining things that haven't been invented yet and often don't have the technical know how to know if something is feasible or not. When something as simple as size keeps shifting from 3 to 5+ stories in height it gets a bit difficult to concentrate ;-)

The clown car infantry transports are imho a bigger eyesore then the missile issue. A Chinook carries 33-55 men (two IS infantry platoons are 56 men) and is 30m long...

But how high is it? It could be the British version that is built off the double decker bus chassis :P

[Lafeel]

Plus the Soviets have long proved that there are ways to pack people tighter into vehicles than the US army does it.

[Charlie Tango]

Simple answer: 

'Mechs are two levels tall.

Vehicles are one level high.

[Demon55]

Plus the Soviets have long proved that there are ways to pack people tighter into vehicles than the US army does it.

Last I checked they needed extra people to make up for casualties that the US military does not take.

[Jim1701]

We're talking about a tech level at which a hundred and more missiles can fit into a single one-ton ammo bin and be casually fed from their location in, say, a side torso to their launcher on the wrist of a fully-modelled arm.

Storing a few PBIs whose bodies are considerably less rigid to begin with should be child's play by comparison. :D

Yes, but missiles don't complain when they're pretzeled.   :P

That would explain the rule about no shooting or moving the turn infantry debarks from a vehicle.  They're too busy trying to stand up. 

[Lafeel]

Last I checked they needed extra people to make up for casualties that the US military does not take.

Never said it was a good idea to go down that road, just pointing it out.

[Wrangler]

There a nice 'Mech / vehicle scaling chart in TRO: 3039.

[Greywind]

I never worry about the cannon of things until that cannon is pointed in my direction.

[Hptm. Streiger]

Disclaimer: I posted in this topic simple because its the first topic that google search will deliver. So other ones will look here first.
I have spend some months of spare time in running circles about the size of things in BT. Not to mention that a lot of sources are contraindicating. And some things simple don't work.
Things that don't work - the Hetzer from the TRO3039... without black hole technology you can't store 4tons of ammunition (the caliber doesn't matter) in that chassis.
The size of vehicles is a different topic (the size need to be depended on the slots used not the tonnage)
But this doesn't work for Mechs.
 
So I tried the Shadow Hawk - its THE average BattleMech - fast, mobile, flexible, the jack of all trades. Somewhere I remembered that the SHD should have 9.5m in height.
I'm far from finished but I think 9.5m are possible.... however when I compare this with the TRO3039 chart and add some unaltered MWO mechs to the mix....


(added versions of Goblin and Demolisher for the comparison) - did use a Warhammer instead of the hopper because I only extracted a couple of miniatures from the game and the Grashopper and Enforcer are not part of those.


So the question is: should I increase the SHD or shrink the others. Or should I try to get a volume of the model and run the numbers against a vehicle builder that includes space (GURPS, CORPS) what do you think.



I hope I don't violate terms (if so pls remove this post)

[Frabby]

I can't cite a source, but I'm fairly certain 9.5m is way too short for a SHD. (Disregarding the autocannon for the purpose of this discussion.) I dimly recall 12m.

Similarly unsourced I seem to recall the Gargoyle had been identified as the tallest known 'Mech chassis.

[I am Belch II]

Mechs are tall and big...but scaleing on the minis are nowhere near exact.

[ANS Kamas P81]

You gotta fit a dude in the head.  That makes a pretty hard and fast minimum, especially for lights...

[Hptm. Streiger]

You gotta fit a dude in the head.  That makes a pretty hard and fast minimum, especially for lights...

Yep, the seat in the SHD is buried half way in the upper torso, this could work for lights as well
Although, not for the Wolfhound.  >:(
The whole head is an escape capsule, so its necessary to put the whole cockpit in the head. 
Tis would be the "start" from there it should be possible to scale the rest accordingly.  ???

[guardiandashi]

as a rule of thumb...
most mechs are from around 8m to 11m ish tall.  with a few outliers that are taller or shorter depending on exactly how you measure.

for example the old techprint of the madcat/timberwolf has it being (according to the scale) just under 12meters tall, until you count the running lights/D-ring looking things at the top of the missile pod boxes, and then it hits 12 meters or just over.

on the other hand the classic warhammer is closer to 8.5-9 meters tall or so with I want to say the top of the head being 7-8 meters up and the missile pod being the top point (obviously)

as I remember it the thor at the top of the missile pod is something like 12-14 meters high which is why its one of the tallest mechs in existence.

[Kovax]

Then you add in the complications of bird-legged designs, quads, and other anomalies, and suddenly the effort to put it all into a neat table or formula breaks down from "roughly applicable" to "hardly applicable, with LOTS of exceptions".  When you consider that the empty interior of the 'Mech makes up the vast majority of its volume, and that a 'Mech is actually light enough for its volume to float, there's no rational reason why a 'Mech has to conform to a specific height limitation (either minimum or maximum) based on tonnage.  Basically, it needs to be big enough to fit the cockpit and engine/gyro.  Beyond that, it's up to the designer to fit it all together in a manner that functions, regardless of how tall it ends up being.

[Daemion]

When the BMR said Mechs averaged between 10 and 12 meters, I strongly took them at their word, meaning only a handful of designs broke the mold.

So, that 14m Grasshopper is a little oversized. And, a lot of the light Mechs, if you follow that the cockpit actually fits in the head, are actually undersized. That, or the head is just part of an assembly that fits around the pilot's neurohelmet and the pilot sits down below the neck on a lot of light Mechs. the Jenner looks particularly uncomfortable.

I never had a problem with 10m tall light mechs that don't look distended, but proportional, because of all the different chassis materials once listed in the Tech Manuals, and the different armor manufacturers. It makes sense to me that Light Mechs might actually have a lot of air space under the armor, or that their Myomers are not as densely packed as a 100ton Atlas, let a lone a 55ton Shadow Hawk.

I've looked at the tank sculpts, too, and I can't believe that a J. Edgar, or a Pegasus hover, can actually properly fit a crew in the tank, not with an actual plenum chamber for air underneat the vehicle eating into the potential interior space. So, I've decided that some vehicles actually need to be larger than what that little chart shows. The Pegasus, Hunter, and J. Edgar minis I have got set aside for all the 1/450-1/500 scale stuff I've collected, like the BattleForce Scale mechs.

The APCs of any stripe, considering the tonnage they can carry and what that equates to as bodies according to the rules, means that the floating soap bar that is the Maxim, or the Heavy line of APCs, are actually the size of small houses, and I've relegated those miniatures to my Map-scale collection. This has inspired me to look at MWDA HQ vehicles and a few others as a starting point for modding/bashing some properly(ish) scaled Heavy-Hover, -Tracked, and -Wheeled figures for use with the more regularly sized Mech figures.

But, that's my take on it.

APCs in general have been a real contention for me because tonnage in guys can add up to a lot of volume real fast.

[Daemion]

Simple answer: 

'Mechs are two levels tall.

Vehicles are one level high.

And, with a level being 6 meters, there you have it. Average of 12 or 11 meters. Viola! Brilliant. (I miss the thumbs up smiley.)

[Daemion]

A lot of the heights are derived from their Mecha inspirations out of anime.

According to Mecha HQ, the Dougram (Shadow Hawk) is 9.63 meters tall, overall, and I think that's sans cannon. That would be like a huge antenna when in stow-and-go mode.

The overall height of the Bigfoot (BattleMaster) out of Fang of the Sun Dougram is 11.64m.

The Tomahawk/Excalibur from Robotech/Macross is supposed to be 11.27 meters tall at the head, and 12.7 meters tall at the height of the launcher.

The VF-1A that is the inspiration for the Stinger is 12.68m tall, and that may include the head laser in stow-and-go mode. I would like to point out that like a lot of anime mecha, the head is a huge sensor assembly just above the cockpit, which is enclosed below the neck line, in the chest. And, the VF valks are all around 15 metric tons being transformable airframes. So, it's not a stretch for me to imagine them being appropriately sized for Stingers, Wasps and Phoenix Hawks of significantly higher mass.

That's actually a pretty good range for what's shown in that modded picture, although the BMR and Whammy need to be inverted so that I feel I'm looking at them from the front.

Go from there for other standard Mechs.

Look at the comp chart and ask if the Commando shouldn't be bigger. Or even the J.Edgar. Where is the air chamber ending on the bottom side of the tank, and how does that effect the driver compartment we see in the picture?

On a side note: Does anyone else kinda wish that the Enforcer's head looked like the one in the comp chart?

[glitterboy2098]

generally, the differences between lights and assualts hasn't been height, it has been width and general bulk.. assualt mechs tend to be chunkier, with thicker body parts, more barrel shaped chest areas, etc. while lights usually are more spindly and thin.

there are of course exceptions to this trend, but not many.

[Daemion]

I really wish that were the case. Certainly if you took all the art, even just out of '39 or '25, and stacked them all so that they're all around same head height, I would believe it.

But, the minis went in a completely different direction, and I can tell that the 'official height chart' out of TRo'39 simply used the mini heights. A lot of light Mechs are very tiny, and look proportionally sound as a humaniform thing. A lot of the Medium Mechs look just as tiny, like the various 40-tonners. The Clint needs to have a volume increase of .25 to .5 more.

[SteelRaven]

Simple answer: 

'Mechs are two levels tall.

Vehicles are one level high.

This O0

Actually why you don't want exact numbers. BT is paints firing arcs and distance in very broad strokes so if you get too technical with height and size, someone can argue a Locust can hide behind a McDonald's or how much partial cover a Banshee should get behind the same cover (granted, mechs can crouch and kneel in fiction)   

[YingJanshi]

This O0

Actually why you don't want exact numbers. BT is paints firing arcs and distance in very broad strokes so if you get too technical with height and size, someone can argue a Locust can hide behind a McDonald's or how much partial cover a Banshee should get behind the same cover (granted, mechs can crouch and kneel in fiction)   

Which is fine for hexmap play. (And TacOps does have rules for taking a knee somewhere...)

For miniatures play though...having scale be all over the place as it is, is... unfortunate...

In regards to the TRO: 3039 scale chart, I've always felt that Commando was too small, it should be sealed up just a bit more. (And ironically enough, the Atlas was originally fluffed as being a bit short for an Assault, even the first sculpts of the minis reflected that. It wasn't until the resculpt that it was...stretched.)

[Hptm. Streiger]

Well miniatures are a different piece of cake. I still wake up screaming when I think about the infamous warlord. The first sculpt Atlas goes only to the hip.
I think the scale between miniatures of a production circle is similar.
The reseens for example fit to each other well enough.
But newer sculpt are to big - the good part is you see it at the price if the scaling fit or not.

As Daemion mentioned the vehicles are usual to small same for aerospace fighters but considering mechs the scale might to be to big.
The 9.5m for the SHD seem to be possible. Simple because all it's guns are mounted at the outside.

Mechs like Catapract compared to the Marauder will need more  volume.

[Daemion]

(And ironically enough, the Atlas was originally fluffed as being a bit short for an Assault, even the first sculpts of the minis reflected that. It wasn't until the resculpt that it was...stretched.)

That would be the Lyran model out of Hesperus. Part of the third succession war 'upgrade' to the model.

[SteelRaven]

*shrug* I never took mini's scale that seriously.

[YingJanshi]

That would be the Lyran model out of Hesperus. Part of the third succession war 'upgrade' to the model.

Could be I guess. The fluff I was referencing was TRO: 3025. (Seemed to imply it was always the way. But who can trust a ComStar authored book anymore? :D)