Author Topic: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X  (Read 2438 times)

Terrace

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Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« on: 10 January 2018, 10:26:44 »
Ok, I've pretty much accepted that the IS LB 10-X is one of the best guns in the entire game when you're looking for the main gun for an Inner Sphere tank, but I've heard that the Clan version isn't held in the same regard. Why is this weapon system considered so good in one tech base, and not the other?

Kidd

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #1 on: 10 January 2018, 10:47:41 »
Functionally identical stats. That means the relative advantage of Clantech over IS tech is a lot less than other weapons like say... Clan ERML vs IS ERML. Clantech is supposed to be lots better, decisively even.

In fact the only difference is 1 less ton and crit. Thats minuscule... possibly the least difference of any Clan/IS equivalent pairing.

Tymers Realm

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #2 on: 10 January 2018, 10:50:10 »
I could guess because of the smaller (by one Crit) and more dakka Ultra/10 for the same weapon weight.
But then again, if I had the choice, I personally would use the LB 10 myself.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #3 on: 10 January 2018, 11:13:57 »
Really, Kidd nailed it- it's so similar that it feels less over the top compared to other Clan weapons' advantages over their IS cousins. Really, Clan ballistic weapons in-general suffer from this. Consider the Gauss rifle, even- for all its power and range, the only real fundamental difference between the two tech bases is saving three tons. Not a small thing, mind you, but compared to half-weight missile racks and massive damage/range-boost energy weapons it's a bit underwhelming by comparison.

Make no bones about it. If you're dealing with vehicle/aircraft targets, the LB-10X is simply one of the best weapons available, end of story. Tech base be damned- the range is respectable, the shots per ton is plenty, the utility of the two ammo types is handy, and the ability to park even the scariest tank with one stray pellet is marvelous. And what it does to aircraft is tantamount to murder- every shot could send the scariest fighter spiraling out of control. Even against Mechs, there's not much more fun than following up PPC/Gauss shots with a peppering of LBX fire to exploit the holes punched.

I'll use an LB-10X over an Ultra every time. I'll use it over an LB-20X or LB-5X as well. Honestly, there's few weapons I rely on more in Battletech- particularly if you're mounting it on a tank, where energy weapons get a little sketchy for mass use. Goofy as it looks, the Ishtar becomes a beast thanks to that clustergun, and dropping the 20 for a 10 on an Oro is a big improvement overall (and frees up a couple of tons!) thanks to the range boost, too.
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jklantern

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #4 on: 10 January 2018, 21:06:47 »

I'll use an LB-10X over an Ultra every time.

I thought that was because Ultras HATE you.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #5 on: 10 January 2018, 21:33:48 »
I thought that was because Ultras HATE you.
I mean, I'd prefer LBX-ACs to Ultras for the whole jamming problem. Likewise, I'd rather take a RAC over an Ultra despite a similar jamming problem for one crucial reason; I can unjam a RAC.
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William J. Pennington

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #6 on: 11 January 2018, 01:05:25 »
I'll use an LB-10X over an Ultra every time.

Amen. Double the heat, double the ammo tonnage you need for sustained ultra mode fire, for a 41% average damage bump, with the jam increase. Give me LB 10 or 20 every time over an ultra. I just dont care for anything lower in autocannons  on a mech.

The IS LB-10X doesn't face the stiff competition for its weight and tonnage that the Clan LB-10X does. Clan Techs is so manifestly better on the energy side, coupled with the ability to have so many extra heat sinks due to critical space savings, that the merely 'ok' advantage of clan LB technology in size and weight just gives it less edge.


JadeHellbringer

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #7 on: 11 January 2018, 10:41:31 »
I thought that was because Ultras HATE you.

Well, Ultra/2s, certainly. Damn Banes...

Nah, I actually do like the Ultra/10, truth be told. (I'd be a pretty miserable Marik player otherwise, wouldn't I?) It's a solid weapon- despite the weight being a bit troublesome on a Mech, it doesn't require the heat sinks a PPC or large laser can need, which in some cases can make it an attractive option (and of course, always on a tank!). It's a good gun- underrated, for sure.

That said, I'll drop a half dozen of them on my foot if it means getting an LB-10X instead. The ability to fire twice a turn is not to be overlooked, but the ability to pick what kind of bad day I give my opponent is far, far more useful overall to me. It really does come down to that for me- the slight weight difference is negligible overall, the jamming risk on the Ultra is (jokes aside) low enough not to be an enormous factor for me, but that cluster-shot capability is just gold.
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Stinger

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #8 on: 11 January 2018, 12:20:16 »
Well, Ultra/2s, certainly. Damn Banes...

Would you say they are the Bane of your existence?

I'll see myself out.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #9 on: 11 January 2018, 12:27:38 »
Would you say they are the Bane of your existence?

I'll see myself out.

"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #10 on: 12 January 2018, 07:17:08 »
I think the sad state of the cLBX10 is visible when comparing it to the SB-Gauss (Admittedly one of the best weapons in the game): Less damage per ton, same weight per damage output, less range.
I sometimes wonder what thought process went into clan weapons; Not too much, sure, but I can at least see it for most. Clan ERs are 2/3 longer ranged compared to ~1/3 for their IS cousins, with the lasers having +2 damage; Missiles are half the weight, etc. Ballistics are meh.
Maybe the question here is the comparison, with the IS LBX just being so good?
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Empyrus

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #11 on: 12 January 2018, 12:27:52 »
I sometimes wonder what thought process went into clan weapons;
I'd start with wondering who came up with the introductory weapons in the first place.
You know, the basic AC/5 vs PPC. Medium laser stats (really, the thing is one of the best weapons in the game still). MG ammo. Flamer compared to MGs and small lasers (it didn't generate heat back then, and even now that is merely an option). Stuff like that.

And TRO2750 didn't really consider the balance of the new additions either. The pulse laser is billed as a great improvement to standard lasers though it maybe the fluff's writer didn't really delve into actual game balance. The ERLL is rather questionable next to the ERPPC and other options.
I'm thinking the LB-10X and the Gauss Rifle were thought out weapons, made to add really good ballistic weapons to the game. But for reason or another, they didn't really bother keeping this with the Clan weapons.

Perhaps the game was played differently back then. A lot of old 'Mech designs sport a lot of weapons compared to heat sinks, and armor ain't necessarily maxed out either. In such situation, low-heat weapons look good on paper.
Nowadays, designs tend to be a lot cooler running or use heat capacity efficiently (bracket firing), and armor levels tend to be nearly maxed out or carefully considered.
If so, presumably the game designers weapon design philosophy was different as well.

Jellico

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #12 on: 12 January 2018, 16:11:56 »
L1 combat was shooting uselessly at eachother for ages until you get close enough to go physical. If yoir ammo doesn't get hit first.

High armoured well heatsinked units were always favoured. Just the designers didn't give you many to choose from.

Empyrus

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #13 on: 12 January 2018, 16:45:02 »
Hmm. Interesting how heavy armor high heat capacity units eventually became more common. Presumably fans started running things then? IIRC, some have commented that's what more or less happened.

Rince Wind

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #14 on: 12 January 2018, 17:01:25 »
It might have also been a design decision to make the game not last too long. Later, with more speed and more high powered weapons you have other options of bringing something down quickly enough.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #15 on: 13 January 2018, 10:10:38 »
True.
It's one of the inherent weaknesses of the system how the armour being capped, or nearly so, seems to be the best choice most of the time.
While a lot of weapons, back in the day, seem to be poorly balanced, the construction rules are based on them; Max armour is an actual choice when you could get a third more burst firepower instead by installing an extra medium laser and a heatsink.
We now sit on a mountain of legacy, and have to make do with what is.
Still, I think it's odd that clan beam weapons get such significant gains (2/3s more range, aka ~+25% over IS equiv., +2 damage, less weight and crits if possible, the PPC has +50% dmg...) and missiles weight half, with potential gains in (minimum) range, and ballistic weapons, on average, just seem to weight 20% less, and maybe save a crit.
Well, a Gauss Rifle has to be balanced against other similar options, and I think it does an ok job against, say, ER PPCs, while on the IS side it is a shining example of former lostech still towering over the alternatives - just like the LBX 10. But the latter, on the clan side, isn't quite as impressive. I actually think the 5 may be a better choice, what with it weighing less and having the same damage per ton.
I assume the designers just didn't want a 9.5 ton weapon - because 9 would be a bit low compared to the 5.
Edit for word mixup.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2018, 07:29:12 by UnLimiTeD »
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gyedid

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #16 on: 15 January 2018, 04:01:48 »
The Clan LB-2, LB-5, and LB-20 are all lighter, cooler-running, and outrange their *standard* IS equivalents.  This is true of the Clan LB-10 as well.  But remember, when the Clans came calling in 3050, the IS had just re-introduced the Star League-tech LB-10, which offered those same advantages, just not to the same extent--they didn't yet have the full size range, and neither did the Star League.  To make the Clan LB-10 better still would've pushed it into the territory of the LB-5 and IS Ultra/5 (picture the Clan LB-10 at 9 tons, 1-7/8-14/15-21).  But the Clan LB-10 still doesn't offer as dramatic an advantage over the standard equivalent as do the other sizes.  In that sense it's an odd duck.

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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #17 on: 15 January 2018, 07:40:43 »
True, there really wasn't much space for it to shine.
Then again, speciality tools were always a niche where the IS could match the clans. And medium lasers, for much the same reason - hard to improve on that.
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The Eagle

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #18 on: 15 January 2018, 08:06:27 »
You know, this disparity isn't something I've ever consciously noticed but it's certainly something that I've worked around subconsciously.  When I see an Inner Sphere 'Mech with an LB-10X, I automatically express interest because it's a weapon that I know and love for all the reasons previously elucidated.  It's on the Hercules, one of my favorite heavy 'cav 'Mechs, for example as well as the ON1-M, the first generation Level 2 Orion.  But yet I can't think of a single Clan 'Mech, standard or Omni, where it's mounted on what I would call a favorite variant or configuration. Ultra 10s, sure, but not LBX.

Weird.
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Armond

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #19 on: 15 January 2018, 09:08:46 »
Clint IIC has one.  I like it because of his decent speed with his jump ability makes it a pretty decent platform to carry it.  I try to ignore the possibility of loading Ultra-anything, and focus on the fact that IICs tend to do well as garrison forces and battling vehicles is a very real reality.  LBXs just do the job that fit the role for me.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #20 on: 15 January 2018, 11:34:38 »
Ditto for the Thor Prime, where it's wasted by having a single ton of ammo (BAD Falcons!), or a favorite oddball of mine, the Predator (two big LBX guns that don't look anything like the usual LBX art, plus crotch-mounted cockpit = hilarity!)

They're out there- just not as common as energy or missile oriented units.
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Empyrus

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #21 on: 15 January 2018, 11:52:31 »
The Grand Summoner A is good, with two tons of LB-10X ammo.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #22 on: 15 January 2018, 13:39:10 »
The Grand Summoner A is good, with two tons of LB-10X ammo.

Oh totally. I was sticking to either Prime configs or standard versions of second-line machines, but yeah, the Thor II (Thor Harder) A is a thing of beauty. It should be nicknamed 'The Valet', because it looks forward to parking all of your tanks.
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Nightsong

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #23 on: 15 January 2018, 20:17:43 »
You know, this disparity isn't something I've ever consciously noticed but it's certainly something that I've worked around subconsciously.  When I see an Inner Sphere 'Mech with an LB-10X, I automatically express interest because it's a weapon that I know and love for all the reasons previously elucidated.  It's on the Hercules, one of my favorite heavy 'cav 'Mechs, for example as well as the ON1-M, the first generation Level 2 Orion.  But yet I can't think of a single Clan 'Mech, standard or Omni, where it's mounted on what I would call a favorite variant or configuration. Ultra 10s, sure, but not LBX.

Weird.

The Nova Cat D puts it to very good use, actually, using it as a critseeker to follow up the 3 HLLs, all with a TComp. Not the most efficient use, but one of the few HLL configs that I’ve seen put to good use, and the LB10-X is what makes it kind of scary, being able to take advantage of those big holes the lasers make.

Firesprocket

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #24 on: 17 January 2018, 02:29:16 »
The Nova Cat D puts it to very good use, actually, using it as a critseeker to follow up the 3 HLLs, all with a TComp. Not the most efficient use, but one of the few HLL configs that I’ve seen put to good use, and the LB10-X is what makes it kind of scary, being able to take advantage of those big holes the lasers make.
This example I think exemplifies my own personal issue with the Clan LB-10X.  There are only a small number of units that the weapon works well to compliment when you look at the larger array of weapons in a Clanner's arsenal.  Aside from pairing up with an Ultra-10 with identical range or an Heavy Large Laser most other long range weapons have a larger range to them in which case I'd rather stick it out with an LB-5X or another weapon entirely as a back up.  Compare that to an IS LB-10X where there are multiple weapon systems that range out at 18 hexes.

gyedid

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #25 on: 17 January 2018, 05:33:11 »
This example I think exemplifies my own personal issue with the Clan LB-10X.  There are only a small number of units that the weapon works well to compliment when you look at the larger array of weapons in a Clanner's arsenal.  Aside from pairing up with an Ultra-10 with identical range or an Heavy Large Laser <snip>

The Heimdall certainly agrees with you.  >:D  ;D

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

marauder648

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #26 on: 17 January 2018, 06:35:05 »
Could one say that the LB-10 has been supplimented and replaced by the HAG-20?  Sure it only fires in cluster mode, but its got a greater range, and does more damage. Its biggest drawback is that you need to devote more tonnage to ammo for endurance as you only get 6 shots with a HAG-20.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #27 on: 17 January 2018, 16:58:49 »
I'd say no, the HAG20 only has four clusters, the LB10 goes up to ten.  Definitely the better critseeker.

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #28 on: 19 January 2018, 12:13:35 »
I'd say no, the HAG20 only has four clusters, the LB10 goes up to ten.  Definitely the better critseeker.

Agreed. The extra AA bonus is nice, but I'll take an LB-10X over a HAG most of the time still. The LB gets the advantage of being able to select between that wonderful cluster shot or a solid 'oomph' if the situation demands it, something the HAG can't really do- it does more damage OVERALL on average, but spread out whether you want to or not. The LB also gets more shots per ton, which can be a big advantage- not just in terms of total number of shots, but the ability to take the kind of shots that are iffy on whether you'll hit or not- if I have ten rounds available per ton, I can take a potshot that I might not be willing to take at six shots available. The LB's ammo is explosive, so that sucks, but the HAG can explode as well- for less damage overall, but with a much larger 'footprint' in terms of crits, thus a much larger chance of being hit.

The HAG isn't a bad weapon, mind you, but given the choice I'll stick to the classic.
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Firesprocket

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Re: Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X
« Reply #29 on: 20 January 2018, 02:47:50 »
Could one say that the LB-10 has been supplimented and replaced by the HAG-20?
It definitely is not a replacement.  While it has better range, at long range the HAG will be less effective and more than likely put out 2 clusters or less.  Pretty much any LB will do that better.

 

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