Author Topic: Gorgon Deck layout  (Read 365 times)

Alan Grant

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1408
Gorgon Deck layout
« on: 10 January 2018, 14:33:05 »
I'm wondering if the Gorgon has a deck layout like the Vengeance and Achilles (where "up" is toward the nose of the ship). Or the layout of a more traditional aerodyne.

I can see a case either way. A carrier is going to spend a lot of time in space. But at the same time it has that bomb bay aspect. That would be rough on the crew to be standing with the bow over their heads, and then to enter atmosphere and have gravity want to pull them toward the nearest bulkhead. But the bomb bay seems like more an afterthought....

If the latter, I'm also wondering if you think the Gorgon can land on a planet. Not just yard dart. I mean landing gear.

Opinions appreciated
A proud member of the Battletech-Mercenaries community...now with a Clan game!

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 29296
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #1 on: 10 January 2018, 15:19:38 »
Because TRO 3145 actually listed a unit's quirks, this has a firm answer. Because it does not have the 'Un-streamlined' quirk, there is nothing preventing it from doing anything any other Aerodyne can do, including surface landing. As for the deck layout, this means the decks are either 'horizontal' like most such ships, or laid out like the Avenger or Nagumo, vertical until rearranged prior to atmospheric entry. It could go either way, but I strongly suspect the former.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Alan Grant

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1408
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #2 on: 10 January 2018, 17:29:13 »
That makes sense. I didn't think about what the absence of certain quirks meant. Thanks!


EDIT: Since that question got answered so fast and efficiently. I'd like to pose a follow-up.

How many tons of cargo should be devoted to the bomb bay? Assuming the goal is interdiction, anti-ASF, anti-dropship firing in support of the deployed fighters. Basically using the same tactics that the Vengeance DC is intended to deploy in standing off and providing fire support to its fighters.

I'm trying to find that fine line between preserving enough cargo space for onboard needs, and deploying a healthy-size bomb bay that can make a meaningful difference in a battle.
« Last Edit: 10 January 2018, 17:52:19 by Alan Grant »
A proud member of the Battletech-Mercenaries community...now with a Clan game!

Alan Grant

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1408
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #3 on: 12 January 2018, 21:59:11 »
I'm also feeling uncertain about how fighters launch and are recovered from the Gorgon.

From the angle of the art, I'd also swear there wasn't a rear entry into those wings. There's also 3 doors to the entire 18 fighter bay. Which compared to other carriers is kind of an odd number.

A proud member of the Battletech-Mercenaries community...now with a Clan game!

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6941
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #4 on: 13 January 2018, 22:16:39 »
I'm also in the camp of its the same as other Aerodynes so its going to have 2 drives, for horizontal/atmospheric flight & a transit drive underneath for moving in 0-g.

As for bomb load,  I'm going to just suggest 30 tons since IIRC that is what the Avenger used to be fluffed to carry.  So it seems like a good starting point to me.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

VhenRa

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1665
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #5 on: 14 January 2018, 09:51:27 »
I imagine its whatever bombs/missiles/whatever that isn't loaded on your fighters at the time...

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3700
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #6 on: 14 January 2018, 10:49:41 »
I'm also in the camp of its the same as other Aerodynes so its going to have 2 drives, for horizontal/atmospheric flight & a transit drive underneath for moving in 0-g.
Transit drives are completely unnecessary, any Aerodyne with an interior that can't operate in both vertical and horizontal is a deathtrap, so we can assume that all Aerodynes have required adaptations.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Alan Grant

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1408
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #7 on: 14 January 2018, 14:53:39 »
Any thoughts on the landing system issue? How fighters take off and land...
A proud member of the Battletech-Mercenaries community...now with a Clan game!

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 29296
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #8 on: 14 January 2018, 14:54:30 »
What issue?
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Alan Grant

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1408
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #9 on: 14 January 2018, 16:43:09 »
The ship has 3 doors for all the fighters.

I'm wondering if the two obvious forward facing hangar bay doors are both launch and recovery for fighters. Or if those are for just one or the other (launch OR recovery not both) and that there's another system somewhere.

To use a Battlestar Galactica comparison. The fighters there were launched out tubes on the sides, and the wing bays were used for recovery. I've seen valid looking arguments on these forums that suggest the Vengeance-class works a similar way. That it has ventral or dorsal launch tubes in the hull, but fighters are recovered through the wings. If they land properly they catch inside the wings, if they need to abort they can travel right through and try again. That's the short version of that explanation I read.

Wondering what the case is here. I can't tell if there are hangar entrances on the back of the wings or some other mechanism at work here.
« Last Edit: 14 January 2018, 16:46:21 by Alan Grant »
A proud member of the Battletech-Mercenaries community...now with a Clan game!

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6941
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #10 on: 14 January 2018, 17:39:00 »
Transit drives are completely unnecessary, any Aerodyne with an interior that can't operate in both vertical and horizontal is a deathtrap, so we can assume that all Aerodynes have required adaptations.

Except that the Avenger fluff is specifically described as being an exception & having a customizeable interior layout because it does not have 2 Drives like other aeros.

Every other Aerodyne seems to EITHER have 2 Drives (Leopard, Triumph, etc),  OR,  Its not capable of atmospheric flight (Vengeance, etc)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6941
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #11 on: 14 January 2018, 17:43:55 »
The ship has 3 doors for all the fighters.

I'm wondering if the two obvious forward facing hangar bay doors are both launch and recovery for fighters. Or if those are for just one or the other (launch OR recovery not both) and that there's another system somewhere.

To use a Battlestar Galactica comparison. The fighters there were launched out tubes on the sides, and the wing bays were used for recovery. I've seen valid looking arguments on these forums that suggest the Vengeance-class works a similar way. That it has ventral or dorsal launch tubes in the hull, but fighters are recovered through the wings. If they land properly they catch inside the wings, if they need to abort they can travel right through and try again. That's the short version of that explanation I read.

Wondering what the case is here. I can't tell if there are hangar entrances on the back of the wings or some other mechanism at work here.

Well the way Doors worked in AT2 IIRC was that each door was capable of launching 2 or recovering 1 at a time. 

Meanwhile the Fluff for the Vengeance does indeed describe that Recovery is done from the back 1 fighter per side & the engines had to be shut down to do it.
While Lauching was fluffed as 4 fighters at a time per side for 8 total.
I'm not sure of any "passthrough" option on them so much as recovery needed area to move them around, while when launching, they were already set up ahead of time in their tubes/cradles.

Basically the same way a modern carrier has 2 catapults in the same space as 1 recovery cable, IIRC.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3852
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #12 on: 14 January 2018, 17:47:45 »
2 catapults in the same space with one set of recovery cables, actually...

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3700
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #13 on: 14 January 2018, 19:07:50 »
Except that the Avenger fluff is specifically described as being an exception & having a customizeable interior layout because it does not have 2 Drives like other aeros.
Many years ago some writer(s) seem to have made a dumb mistake for whatever reason, it is just too bad that it hasn't been fixed yet.
Without the secured interiors, DS become little more then flying baby rattles.

Quote
Every other Aerodyne seems to EITHER have 2 Drives (Leopard, Triumph, etc)
That has to be S/VTOL thrust redirected from the main drive, those dropships don't have enough space for another drive, while proper interior design mostly requires some extra thought.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Daryk

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3852
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #14 on: 14 January 2018, 19:12:28 »
The Avenger's fluff talked about having two secured configurations... no rattling around if the crew was prepared for the switch.  Really nothing for the writers to fix there...

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3700
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #15 on: 14 January 2018, 19:24:49 »
The Avenger's fluff talked about having two secured configurations... no rattling around if the crew was prepared for the switch.  Really nothing for the writers to fix there...
I was talking about DropShips in general, the idea of a transit drive is a bad solution to a problem that shouldn't even be there in the first place. In fact a transit drive would be one of the most wasteful 'solutions' ever.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Alan Grant

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1408
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #16 on: 14 January 2018, 21:29:19 »
Well the way Doors worked in AT2 IIRC was that each door was capable of launching 2 or recovering 1 at a time. 

Meanwhile the Fluff for the Vengeance does indeed describe that Recovery is done from the back 1 fighter per side & the engines had to be shut down to do it.
While Lauching was fluffed as 4 fighters at a time per side for 8 total.
I'm not sure of any "passthrough" option on them so much as recovery needed area to move them around, while when launching, they were already set up ahead of time in their tubes/cradles.

Basically the same way a modern carrier has 2 catapults in the same space as 1 recovery cable, IIRC.

So do you think there are hangar entrances in the back? Or is all launch and recover done from those visible front hangar entrances?

I'm wondering if landing means getting ahead of the ship and playing chicken with it until you get into the bay from the front and catch the wire (or whatever stops your forward motion).
A proud member of the Battletech-Mercenaries community...now with a Clan game!

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6941
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #17 on: 14 January 2018, 21:43:50 »
I'm guessing there isn't a lot of cable catch type function.

The Zero-G nature of means they probably come in & use small jets to pivot & come to a stop.

The Vengeance was fluffed as having separate doors for launch/recover.

The blueprints of the Aegis from Living Legends is probably a better look at how an Aerobay is layed out.

IIRC it had 2 launch tubes for 6 fighters per deck & a crane to move them from their bays to the launch/recovery stations.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Alan Grant

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1408
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #18 on: 15 January 2018, 18:01:18 »
Posting this here and in the Gorgon Dropship of the Week article on Fan Articles. Because A. this thread is active, and B. that thread is an easy to find reference in the aerospace articles index.

So I found the Gorgon art on Deviant Art website. Posted by the original artist, who goes by the name Shimmering Sword there.

In comments about the artwork for the Gorgon I posted the question of how he believed launch and recovery worked.

Here's what he said, copy and pasted:

Oh I can absolutely answer that :)
Fighters typically launch from the front wing openings, and that very rear top surface is a landing strip. You'll notice in front of that is a pretty sharp change in the ships form, as there's another door there.
As listed in the stats it also has an underside cargo bay hatch that can be used to drop bombs. Getting tricky with it could allow the dropping of fighters, if you stuffed it extra full with them.
I also imagined the very top surface of the ship being able to open up, or lower down into the ship aircraft carrier style too, for landing and launching bulkier "small craft".
« Last Edit: 15 January 2018, 18:09:14 by Alan Grant »
A proud member of the Battletech-Mercenaries community...now with a Clan game!

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6941
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #19 on: 16 January 2018, 00:43:08 »
Interesting.   I would have never guessed he uses the top as a "landing strip".

So they come in there & then are lowered through the ship on elevators to the main hold.

Then launch from the wings.

Very interesting.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5833
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #20 on: 16 January 2018, 00:54:36 »
Interesting.   I would have never guessed he uses the top as a "landing strip".

So they come in there & then are lowered through the ship on elevators to the main hold.

Then launch from the wings.

Very interesting.

Interesting indeed.  A pet on-and-off again project I've been working on in my spare time the last couple weeks is drawing out deck plans for the Vengeance class.  A key problem that's required resolving is how much volume a launching mechanism actually requires, which in turn requires figuring out how large ASFs actually are.  This in turn is very challenging given the long-enshrined artwork for launch doors on Leopards, Unions, and Overlords coupled with the very disparate silhouettes of ASFs (dart like Corsairs and Stukas vs Boomerang like Shilones and Rievers go out the exact same launch tubes...)

I've got a few reasons why I don't like the idea of the Gorgon class launching fighters frontally out of its wing pods, but I'm some random dude on the internet and the guy who drew the art says that's how he thinks it goes.  But for what it's worth, I saw the Vengeance and Gorgon both recovering ASFs inside those hollow wingpods basically akin to the Battlestar Galactica model.  But not so much launching from them, as firing ASFs out of the dropship along its path of travel is just asking for the ASF to crash back into the DropShip should it have an engine failure. But of course if the Gorgon has a belly drive then firing towards the nose would be perpendicular to the path of DropShip's travel, which would then be ideal. 

However the idea of landing on the exterior of the dropship's hull like some space-borne aircraft carrier is a neat idea that warrants some thought for my Vengeance deckplans project.

« Last Edit: 16 January 2018, 00:58:59 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6941
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #21 on: 16 January 2018, 01:01:56 »
I've always assumed that the fighters are kept in the main hull of the Vengeance & only use those side pods for recovery based on the fluff.

I'm torn as to where the "launch" from as I can see tubes from the hull but also see the front of the pylons being 4 tubes & the pylon itself is not a pass-through but separated into front/rear sections.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5833
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #22 on: 16 January 2018, 01:07:01 »
I've always assumed that the fighters are kept in the main hull of the Vengeance & only use those side pods for recovery based on the fluff.

I'm torn as to where the "launch" from as I can see tubes from the hull but also see the front of the pylons being 4 tubes & the pylon itself is not a pass-through but separated into front/rear sections.

For my Vengeance deckplans project, I'm having the ship recover via the hollow wing pods and launch doors are in the ventral surface.  I originally had them half ventral half dorsal, but I've revised my master deck plan and there's a "spine" down the dorsal side linking the ship all together... making it impossible to fit launch tubes through the spine.  So currently I have them all ventral and I like the serendipity of this placement.  It doesn't matter in transit or at a jump point, but in orbit it makes sense to have all the launch doors pointed the same direction.

Alan Grant

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1408
Re: Gorgon Deck layout
« Reply #23 on: 16 January 2018, 11:14:14 »
On another really old thread someone just seeing the Gorgon art for the first time said it reminded them of the Exeter-class destroyer from Wing Commander.

I looked that ship up in a google image search (search words used: Exeter-class destroyer Wing Commander)  and found someone's project to make newer art for that ship. Interestingly enough, the art includes different angles and the image of the ship's rear shows a landing strip and bay entrance on the upper rear of the ship. The setup is very akin to what Shimmering Sword is describing.

I'd post the link to the art but the rules here on that are pretty strict. A google image search will bring it up among the top results though.
A proud member of the Battletech-Mercenaries community...now with a Clan game!

 

Register