3075 Tiger/Panzer equivalent?

[Porkins]

I highly recommend reading "Armored Thunderbolt" by Steven Zaloga to get a better picture about armored warfare in World War 2. Not only about the Sherman, but also about german tanks.

Thanks for the referral on this book; I will check it out sometime soon.

[guardiandashi]

note most of this is hearsay and stories.

the tiger and panzer were scary as heck to "stock" especially early version shermans.  and to the crews of said shermans they were justifiable scared to run into them.
the fact that the panzer and tiger might have issue driving more than a few miles under their own power, and had horrible strategic movement due to breakdowns and repair issues.

the guns on the german tanks would typically go right through the shermans armor wheras the shermans cannon could only punch through by hitting weak spots, and or certain angles, so ya...

one thing I heard is that 1 tiger? or panther was able to take on and win against 4 shermans consistently... the problem for the germans was that there were always 5 of the things...

[Black_Knyght]

I watched a History Channel documentary about a Canadian unit of Shermans that encountered a single Tiger. Tankers from BOTH sides of that particular encounter were interviewed, with quite a bit of revelation on both accounts.

The Canadian tankers talked about how THEIR 75mm shells just ricocheted off of the Tiger, or shattered completely with direct hits. And by their own accounts they lost 4 Shermans in minutes at the hands of the Tiger.

The Tiger's driver talked about the bell-ringing noise the Sherman shells made when they hit them, and how they jokingly referred to the Shermans as "Klopfers" (knockers/thumpers) because of how noisy and ineffective they were.

Ultimately a Canadian Sherman Firefly knocked out the Tiger's track, and and after losing another tank to the immobilized Tiger they chose to bug out and radio it's location in rather than keep losing tanks. Aircraft later bombed the Tiger, but most of the crew was outside trying to fix it and all but the commander survived.

[worktroll]

A Tiger is certainly a fearsome thing for a man, or a tank, to encounter in the battlefield.

The Tiger dozens of miles behind the battle line with empty fuel tanks, or the Panther dead behind the lines because the transmission blew, again - not so much.

And yes, Shermans had mechanical problems too, to add to their flammability issues. But if you started with 48 Shermans in depot, odds were 40 of them made it to battle. The Germans started with 12 Panthers and 4 Tigers, of which 8 and 3 made it to the line.

Great factual read here - Otto Carius' "Tigers in the Mud". Justifiably fond of the Tiger, despite its shortcomings, but can't say enough bad things about the King or Hunting Tigers.

[Sir Chaos]

A Tiger is certainly a fearsome thing for a man, or a tank, to encounter in the battlefield.

The Tiger dozens of miles behind the battle line with empty fuel tanks, or the Panther dead behind the lines because the transmission blew, again - not so much.

And yes, Shermans had mechanical problems too, to add to their flammability issues. But if you started with 48 Shermans in depot, odds were 40 of them made it to battle. The Germans started with 12 Panthers and 4 Tigers, of which 8 and 3 made it to the line.

Great factual read here - Otto Carius' "Tigers in the Mud". Justifiably fond of the Tiger, despite its shortcomings, but can't say enough bad things about the King or Hunting Tigers.

In your example... the way I heard it, the Germans would have been lucky to 4 Panthers and 1 Tiger to the line.

[ANS Kamas P81]

A big portion of that readiness was the fact you'd have to tear half a Tiger or Panther apart to get at the engine or transmission.  Want to swap the tranny in the Sherman, get a wrench, pop 17 bolts, swap, and done.  Same for the engine in the back.  The Americans also had the extra industrial capacity to provide huge amounts of spares, compared to the Germans who were building entire tanks out of nearly everything they had rather than provide replacement parts.

Tactically, in a perfect setting, the Tiger's a fantastic piece of hardware.  Purely on armor vs armor, and gun vs gun, it wins.  It's also 15-20 tons heavier than the M4, so that's an obvious result anyway.  Apply the situational problems the Germans had with lack of spares, bad designs (interleaved wheels, looking at you), terrible gas mileage (68 miles offroad per tank of fuel) and poor supply situations and the Tiger becomes at best a bunker with a pretty solid gun aaaand that's it.

The King Tiger/Tiger II?  Add another fifteen tons to the Tiger.  Keep the engine.  Enjoy your 10-12mph speed cross-country because of it, not to mention terrible turret rotation speed, and the simple fact that all the armor's on the front...which led to embarrassing moments like this:

"During the Battle of St. Vith a M8 Greyhound armoured car destroyed a Tiger II after getting in behind it on the Schonberg Road, though the commander tried to traverse his turret to engage the M8. The M8 fired three 37 mm rounds into the relatively thin rear armor of the Tiger from only 25 yd (23 m), setting it on fire: "There was a muffled explosion, followed by flames which billowed out of the turret and engine port."

Ballsiest Greyhound crew ever.

[Hptm. Streiger]

The Tiger was a beast mostly in the early war. I don't know how accurate the Tiger in the desert was (good old Panzer Elite) - but a single Tiger did end my US mission tree in its beginning. Lost my first squad mate before i even realized that we came under fire....
Later with material that became worse and worse the Tiger was a waste of resources, it was a industrial war.... but well back to OT.

in 3075 a fear some war machine that is over constructed?

• society/clan
• ferro lamelor 4/6
• ERPPC + Gauss
• TC+Nova CWS

[mbear]

OK. Guys, the Sherman/Panzer info is neat and all, but totally off topic. Maybe we could move that discussion to a new thread in the Off-Topic forum? It's interesting, but not what Black_Knyght had in mind when he asked the original question. Just a request from a fellow Forum-ite.

Edit: In fact, here's a new thread to discuss why the Sherman/Panther/Tiger sucked/rocked. WW2 Tanks: Sherman v. Panther v. Tiger

I haven't had a chance to bring in any comments related to that topic, but please feel free to do so.

[truetanker]

I see the Bulldog more like the Sherman with the Kanga(AC) more a Panther.

TT

[worktroll]

The Myrmidon has to me, a Sherman-like feel, but better quality. The Vedette is my Pzkw IV analog - initially under-inspiring, but over time (and a multitude of variants) ending up pretty darned good.

[Sartris]

It's a little past time, but the Gurteltier is a punch in the teeth. The Challenger XI with dual gauss and a TC will wreck your day and lead a C3 lance. The Demolisher II is not to be trifled with.

BT tanks aren't legendarily tough in the sense that even the ultra-armored MBTs are going to turn into pillboxes after just a modest amount of plinking. Infantry platoons can ambush and brick the mightiest tanks in one salvo. I tend to both prefer and fear something with a little more speed like the Manteuffel A.

[Colt Ward]

The Vedette always struck me as that so-so car high schoolers talk about buying for cheap and then sink a TON of money into to make it what they want (and usually wreck 3 weeks after its customized, insurance does not pay for anything beyond stock and they are left in the red).

Eh, I have wanted to try the Narukami 1C . . . 2 PPCs, Gauss Rifle, 2 AMS and 17.5 tons of Hardened Armor for 240 HP.  Decreases crit chances . . . I would like to try a lance of them against some random FedSuns mech lance like I did the Schildkrottes (Turtles!) against a random FWL medium lance.  The Turtles routed the mech lance in exchange for one immobilized they put down . . . I think two mechs and forced a 3rd to retreat.

[Sir Chaos]

The Myrmidon has to me, a Sherman-like feel, but better quality. The Vedette is my Pzkw IV analog - initially under-inspiring, but over time (and a multitude of variants) ending up pretty darned good.

And the Bulldog is the T-34 - cheap, plentiful, not very good but good enough.

[worktroll]

Testudo for the JS-152 ;)

[SteelRaven]

And the Bulldog is the T-34 - cheap, plentiful, not very good but good enough.

The T-34 was the reason the Germans made the Panther in the first place.

That said, the Bulldog and Vedette are cheaper and more common than the other examples like the Rommel but that's mostly because of the ICE Engine vs Fusion Engine. Manticore is another 60 Ton track vehicle but totally different machine thanks to the Pitban 240 SFE. *Edit* Just occurred to me the Bulldog may have also been inspired by the M41 Walker Bulldog   

Oh, I think this Tank is relevant to the OP
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tiger

I really wish I found that earlier :D

[Colt Ward]

The Tiger T-12 has the same problem the Enyo does . . . 5t too fat.

[Sir Chaos]

The T-34 was the reason the Germans made the Panther in the first place.

Then either the Manticore or the Rommel/Patton are the Panther in that analogy; if I spend the same money building Bulldogs that you do building Manticores, Rommels and Pattons, I´ll bury you in cheap but useful tanks. I´m going to have an appalling casualty list, but I´ll win the battle.

I wouldn´t compare the Vedette to any these, though. The Vedette and Scorpion would probably be loose equivalents to the Panzer III and Panzer II, with maybe the Po as the Panzer IV.

[SCC]

That said, the Bulldog and Vedette are cheaper and more common than the other examples like the Rommel but that's mostly because of the ICE Engine vs Fusion Engine. Manticore is another 60 Ton track vehicle but totally different machine thanks to the Pitban 240 SFE. *Edit* Just occurred to me the Bulldog may have also been inspired by the M41 Walker Bulldog

Actually FedComGirl crunched the numbers on the Bulldog and found that by replacing the ICE with a SFE and shrinking the tank down to 30 tons, you can save a bunch. I can't find her post right now but re-creating it in SAW gives me a saving of almost 300,000.

[Liam's Ghost]

Actually FedComGirl crunched the numbers on the Bulldog and found that by replacing the ICE with a SFE and shrinking the tank down to 30 tons, you can save a bunch. I can't find her post right now but re-creating it in SAW gives me a saving of almost 300,000.

Huh. I was skeptical at first, so I tried it out. Pretty sweet.  I shall call it the house panther.

[SCC]

I was thinking Terrier might be a better name. And upon further investigation it was Matti who posted it, not FedComGirl. And it should work for other ICE-powered, energy weapon heavy designs, like the Ontos.

[glitterboy2098]

Actually FedComGirl crunched the numbers on the Bulldog and found that by replacing the ICE with a SFE and shrinking the tank down to 30 tons, you can save a bunch. I can't find her post right now but re-creating it in SAW gives me a saving of almost 300,000.

however that requires a 120 SFE.. an engine type that was in high demand during the succession wars due to the plethora of Wasp's and Stinger's.

[Colt Ward]

Sure . . . but it also means that someone should have set up a armor workshop style factory on somewhere like Galatea using those SFE that were replaced with XLs when some mercs upgraded their bugs.