Infantry in CBT - the POLL

[Black_Knyght]

I've seen a few interesting discussion involving NON-special equipped ( non-BA, non-motorized, non-mechanized) Infantry, a.k.a.PBI's. Most seem to be of the mind that they're pretty much pointless and only useful to soak up damage or distract enemies.

So, simply for the sake of curiosity, I thought I'd submit a poll about them :))

[sadlerbw]

Personally, I tend not to use them unless you count BA, which I still only use sparingly. For me, what I want out of BT is primarily mech combat. I mess around with combined arms occasionally, but even then I don’t bother with infantry much. I almost responded in the other thread, but realized I probably didn’t use them enough to have a real good idea how they play anymore!

I find Battle Armor slightly more interesting, but I still don’t generally use more than a few here and there. Don’t think I’ve ever run a full Nova in my life. Just doesn’t turn my crank, so I voted “meh”.

[Kojak]

Infantry are fantastic and if someone can't get use out of them then frankly it's just that they're not skilled enough to use them properly. PBIs are not a unit for novices.

[CrossfirePilot]

I like to use them to add another little variable.  With Megamek its kinda fun to put a few squads of infantry under control of the bot but then align them with a player. So that player doesn't have control, but has someone doing something on his side...

[SCC]

Infantry could be made better on a couple of levels. The easiest is calculating BV, the current system for doing so is over complicated and due to the way infantry damage works, unlikely to represent the damage they do. The other is their lack of power, this leads to a general low BV, which enables swarms.

[Phobos101]

I dont know, it could be lack of experience but I find that the amount of time I spend in pre-game prep for PBI compared to vehicles or mechs  is disproportionate to their usefulness.

[Frabby]

I couldn't answer the poll because none of the suggested answers fits my view on the matter.

I'm an old-school player, mostly stuck pre-3050 when it comes to the gameboard. (I like the ongoing fiction, but don't particularly care for the tech creep.)

In my - admittedly heavily role-playing/storytelling-tinged - gameboard experience, infantry and conventional units (the useless, ubiquituous standard tanks of no more than 45 tons) are heavily present as inferior battlefield units for the players to shoot up - OpFor goons to mow down, or Zerg swarm equivalents, only to be feared when you're almost out of the fight yourself. Fits with the early flair of the 'Mech as king of the battlefield, and a lance of 'Mechs enough to conduct a raid or defend a small world.

I don't even want infantry to be anywhere on even footing with the 'Mechs.
For the same reason I feel tanks are becoming less interesting the closer they are to a viable battlefield unit.

[Mattlov]

They have their uses, but I find that they bog down a game too much with even more rules and units.

[AlphaMirage]

They have their uses mostly in built up terrain or to achieve an objective. I would like a bit more streamlining in platoon building and greater use in one shot Anti-Mech weapons.  That said they should have their own initiative count just like Aerospace so as to not bog down the primary units.

[Weirdo]

When used properly, they're game changers. Unless you're in a city, they'll almost never win a straight-up fight with an armored unit. That's not what they're there for. They're force multipliers that make things easier for your mechs and tanks.

They're the cheap escorts that make enemies wary of trying to get inside the minimums of your assault tanks.

They're the guys that make that stand of woods just enough of a pain in the ass to secure that your opponent decides not to bother with it for now, making it safe for your mechs to turn their backs on it.

They're the units you hold until last in your initiative order while you pointedly open the rulebook to the Anti-Mech Attacks section while the other guy is moving his stuff, psyching him out and putting him on the defensive even when he wins initiative.

They're the best IDF spotters in the game, period. An Archer pilot who doesn't budget for at least one platoon's worth of beer after every battle is an Archer pilot who doesn't really like kill markers.

Mechs may be the kings of most battlefields, but if your fight wanders into a city, they're nothing to the foot troops. Even kings must kneel when confronted with gods.

Easiest ambush ever. Remember that infantry are cheap, can be hidden in almost any kind of hexes, and Beagle Probes can't spot them. I'm not encouraging you to flood a mapsheet with guerrillas or some similar dick move, but nobody likes to be ambushed. All he needs to do is stumble over a couple such ambushes, and you can make him so paranoid that his advance will slow to a crawl.

Speaking of psyops...the perfect exemplification of frustration is a big energy/Gauss mech like a Marauder-3D or Devastator trying to advance in the face of indirect fire called down by a single dug-in foot platoon...who is in range. These mechs are used to being the boss monsters of the battlefield, they do NOT like being confronted by a tiny foe they can barely scratch.

And before the inevitable "but" comments surface, I know there are things that kill infantry dead in job lots. I know of these things, you know if these things, we all know of these things. If you incorporate infantry into your plans but don't have a plan to kill the infantry-killers, what happens in that game is 100% your fault.

Long story short, to paraphrase myself from a long time ago: If your infantry operations cannot be described as shenanigans, you're doing it wrong.

[Kovax]

There's nothing scarier to a vehicle crew than finding themselves confronted with a platoon of footsloggers who just stepped out of the middle of a thick patch of woods to the edge, and are about to pepper the flank of your tank with a solid handful or more of 2-point hits, any one of which can grind your highly mobile death machine to a screaming halt for the duration of the battle, leaving you with that huge "hit me" -4 to-hit bull's eye emblazoned on the side for the suddenly shorter remaining life of the vehicle and/or crew.  I've seen several 'Mechs step into a stand of trees, only to be crit-killed or severely damaged by a platoon of basic rifle infantry hiding in the center.

Then there are cities, and you DON'T want to fight against infantry in a city, regardless of whether you're a MechWarrior, tanker, or another grunt about to be thrown into the meat grinder.

Infantry used wrong are a waste of time and points.  Infantry used right are a much bigger waste of the enemy's efforts, and possibly units.

[Kidd]

they are 1 of the options that can be used to turn the game away from your basic 4 on 4, 1 map Mech battle, which is heaps of fun but isn't the thing that is going to propel the game and franchise onward for like decades

[Weirdo]

Infantry used wrong are a waste of time and points.  Infantry used right are a much bigger waste of the enemy's efforts, and possibly units.

You. You grok me. :)

[SteveRestless]

Voted "Useless" but that doesn't accurately portray my stance. I absolutely think there should be rules for them, but I also absolutely think that those rules should make the 31st century battlefield a hellish nightmare for them. Against any serious hardware they should be terrified.

[Weirdo]

So you voted for how you want them to be, versus how they are now?

[Garrand]

In the modern world infantry should be terrified of tanks...if they have nothing capable of dealing with tanks. Even an old Panzer 1 is a terror on the battlefield to an enemy with no anti-tank weapons or training. That being said, as it is on the modern battlefield as it is in battletech, infantry out in the open should be slaughtered by any reasonable weapons systems. But once you get them in cover, built up terrain, or field fortifications, they should be hard to dislodge & require your own infantry to assault.

Damon.

[snewsom2997]

But once you get them in cover, built up terrain, or field fortifications, they should be hard to dislodge & require your own infantry to assault.

Damon.

Drop the building on them, or set the building on fire, set the forest on fire or target the hex with artillery. The Vulcan and Firestarter exist for a reason.

[jimdigris]

When used properly, they're game changers. Unless you're in a city, they'll almost never win a straight-up fight with an armored unit. That's not what they're there for. They're force multipliers that make things easier for your mechs and tanks.

They're the cheap escorts that make enemies wary of trying to get inside the minimums of your assault tanks.

They're the guys that make that stand of woods just enough of a pain in the ass to secure that your opponent decides not to bother with it for now, making it safe for your mechs to turn their backs on it.

They're the units you hold until last in your initiative order while you pointedly open the rulebook to the Anti-Mech Attacks section while the other guy is moving his stuff, psyching him out and putting him on the defensive even when he wins initiative.

They're the best IDF spotters in the game, period. An Archer pilot who doesn't budget for at least one platoon's worth of beer after every battle is an Archer pilot who doesn't really like kill markers.

Mechs may be the kings of most battlefields, but if your fight wanders into a city, they're nothing to the foot troops. Even kings must kneel when confronted with gods.

Easiest ambush ever. Remember that infantry are cheap, can be hidden in almost any kind of hexes, and Beagle Probes can't spot them. I'm not encouraging you to flood a mapsheet with guerrillas or some similar dick move, but nobody likes to be ambushed. All he needs to do is stumble over a couple such ambushes, and you can make him so paranoid that his advance will slow to a crawl.

Speaking of psyops...the perfect exemplification of frustration is a big energy/Gauss mech like a Marauder-3D or Devastator trying to advance in the face of indirect fire called down by a single dug-in foot platoon...who is in range. These mechs are used to being the boss monsters of the battlefield, they do NOT like being confronted by a tiny foe they can barely scratch.

And before the inevitable "but" comments surface, I know there are things that kill infantry dead in job lots. I know of these things, you know if these things, we all know of these things. If you incorporate infantry into your plans but don't have a plan to kill the infantry-killers, what happens in that game is 100% your fault.

Long story short, to paraphrase myself from a long time ago: If your infantry operations cannot be described as shenanigans, you're doing it wrong.

This nearly says it all.  You left off the part where the infantry are the only ones who can secure buildings and capture factories. ;)

[Weirdo]

Very true. Mechs and tanks can only secure rubble piles.

[Orin J.]

Popcorn isn't brought to the field to bring you glorious victory. it's brought to help other forces bring you glorious victory, and not every unit is best measured by the yardstick of what they do alone.

besides, you need plenty of people on the sidelines cheering for you if you're gonna do it right.

[Sartris]

The humble laser platoon is one of my favorite BT units

For extra good times, combine PBI with minefields.

[HMS_Swiftsure]

I voted yes, but there's caveats.

It's certainly worth learning and using.  BV for BV, nothing hits quite as hard as infantry in my experience.  If you have a few BV leftover and are thinking about adding a cheap light 'Mech or tank, infantry will almost always be a superior option.

With that being said, I personally find infantry a drag on your average game.  They tend to reward relatively passive playstyles, and can further penalize fluffy choices like bug 'Mechs.  I wish infantry, tanks, and aero were treated more like scenario elements: not efficient in terms of BV, but a must-have for story-driven campaigns and the like.

[Demon55]

This nearly says it all.  You left off the part where the infantry are the only ones who can secure buildings and capture factories. ;)

Agreed.  I use infantry a lot in my games.  You need them to clear buildings.  If they are dug in and the opponent needs to cross through them their problems will increase. 

I have found it very hard to use them offensively but they work very well in defense if dug in and properly supported. 

[I am Belch II]

They serve a use, but with mechs that are huge and armored, the infantry just don't have a good mech killing weapon. If they did they would be a lot more useful.

[klarg1]

they are 1 of the options that can be used to turn the game away from your basic 4 on 4, 1 map Mech battle, which is heaps of fun but isn't the thing that is going to propel the game and franchise onward for like decades

So much this.

I can play only so many 'mech on 'mech battles before I want some variety.  It doesn't have to be infantry, but I like the option.

(I voted "useful, if used right")

[pheonixstorm]

They serve a use, but with mechs that are huge and armored, the infantry just don't have a good mech killing weapon. If they did they would be a lot more useful.

Standard rifle platoons (28 men) can dish out 14pts of damage split into 7 2 point groups. While it isn't a lot of damage that is still 7 chances t cause an ammo explosion or TAC your power plant. Or even worse, crit your mechs cockpit.

[Weirdo]

They serve a use, but with mechs that are huge and armored, the infantry just don't have a good mech killing weapon. If they did they would be a lot more useful.

Ignoring field guns because those get brought up way too often in infantry discussions, there'll never be an infantry weapon that can one-shot a mech. This puts them in the same category with every unit in the game, aside from those with headcappers. And 90% of infantry weapons can damage and kill a mech with sufficient and proper application.

CORRECTION: I thought of it just now. There's us exactly one infantry weapon that can reliably OSK a mech: Unless the mech has extra head armor(likely due to hardened armor), a successful Elias nuke attack kills any mech in one shot.

[pheonixstorm]

You just had to go there lol

[Weirdo]

I find that if I don't list EVERYTHING pertaining to whatever I'm talking about no matter how small the relevance, it tends to get rubbed in my face fairly quick.

[sadlerbw]

Refresh my memory here. Are digging in and hidden units base rules, or are they advanced/optional stuff from TacOps? I feel like digging in, at least, is a TacOps thing. Doesn't invalidate any points about using it, I just tend to avoid most advanced rules if I am playing in meat-space. I do use them more in MegaMek though. Actually...I don't use them at all much anymore. I mostly play Alpha Strike these days and the infantry rules are quite different.

I will grant that infantry make fantastic spotters with a couple caveats: you either need to be able to deploy them where you want during setup, or you need APC's or the like to move them around. Otherwise, they have a tough time getting to where the fight is, even on reasonably small maps.

I think the basic problem, for me anyway, is that I just don't have fun playing infantry. Battle Armor I can tolerate, though I still don't love them, but regular infantry? Meh. They are about as fun as a one-legged Hunchback: Sure it might be a threat, but it isn't all that interesting if you are the one playing it.