Author Topic: Japanese in BT Novels  (Read 14201 times)

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #30 on: 17 February 2012, 13:53:19 »
indeed.  you have to remember Modern English would be as far removed from Battletech's various Englishes as what Harold said to his troops at Hastings in 1066.

Not likely.  Every time communications technology takes a step forward, linguistic drift is slowed down.  Star League Standard English is probably intelligible to a modern speaker thanks to audio recordings and such helping to keep words pronounced the same way, like how the printing press put Middle English writing in a bodybag.  There'd likely be a ton of newly invented words and loanwords, but a modern day speaker with a 31st century dictionary could probably have a conversation with a ComStar adept.

Of course, given the whole fall of the League bit and the ensuing collapse of technology, chances of understanding someone from a backwater Davion planet are anyone's guess.
« Last Edit: 17 February 2012, 13:59:17 by Caesar Steiner for Archon »


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ScrewySqrl

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #31 on: 17 February 2012, 14:21:54 »
Not likely.  Every time communications technology takes a step forward, linguistic drift is slowed down.  Star League Standard English is probably intelligible to a modern speaker thanks to audio recordings and such helping to keep words pronounced the same way, like how the printing press put Middle English writing in a bodybag.  There'd likely be a ton of newly invented words and loanwords, but a modern day speaker with a 31st century dictionary could probably have a conversation with a ComStar adept.

Of course, given the whole fall of the League bit and the ensuing collapse of technology, chances of understanding someone from a backwater Davion planet are anyone's guess.

they Used to think this, 50 years ago.  that Radio & TV would slow linguistic drift.

In fact, it hasn't slowed it down one bit.  The Great Northern Cities Vowel Shift happened in the 1960s, as dramatic a shift as the "Great Vowel Shift" in the 1400s in England.

Linguists now think there will be a 'Southern' English, a 'Northern' English, a 'Western' English all in the current US territory in 500 years or so. About as mutually intelligible as, say, Spanish, French, and Italian are to each other today.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #32 on: 17 February 2012, 14:43:32 »
Star League Standard English is kind of a special case as a legally-defined Lingua Franca.

I personally don't buy that projection, though, unless they're also forecasting the split of the US.  Seems like one of those things where they say "if it continues at this rate," which has to hit a wall if you're all in the same nationality and trying to conduct business of government.
« Last Edit: 17 February 2012, 14:46:06 by Caesar Steiner for Archon »


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ScrewySqrl

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #33 on: 17 February 2012, 14:59:46 »
Star League Standard English is kind of a special case as a legally-defined Lingua Franca.

I personally don't buy that projection, though, unless they're also forecasting the split of the US.  Seems like one of those things where they say "if it continues at this rate," which has to hit a wall if you're all in the same nationality and trying to conduct business of government.

Not necessarily.  Cantonese and Mandarin are spelled the same way, but prounounced very differently, within the same country.

Or, in a narrower example: Cockney vs Northumbian.,

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #34 on: 17 February 2012, 15:30:41 »
they Used to think this, 50 years ago.  that Radio & TV would slow linguistic drift.

In fact, it hasn't slowed it down one bit.  The Great Northern Cities Vowel Shift happened in the 1960s, as dramatic a shift as the "Great Vowel Shift" in the 1400s in England.


It was noticed in the 1960s, it happened in the 19th century, known for its lack of radio and TV.
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ScrewySqrl

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #35 on: 17 February 2012, 16:50:12 »
It was noticed in the 1960s, it happened in the 19th century, known for its lack of radio and TV.

nope.  It STARTED in the late 1950s around Rochester and Buffalo, and spread through other cities through the 1960s and 70s, and started filling in suburbs in the 1980s, and started entering rural areas in the 1990s-2000s. It's notable for skipping suburbs and rural zones, and happening only in cities initially.

Its the FIRST time, ever, that short vowel sounds have shifted.  Until this shift in sounds, the short vowel sounds had NEVER changed, going back to pre-old English germanic languages.

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #36 on: 17 February 2012, 17:08:42 »
nope.  It STARTED in the late 1950s around Rochester and Buffalo, and spread through other cities through the 1960s and 70s, and started filling in suburbs in the 1980s, and started entering rural areas in the 1990s-2000s. It's notable for skipping suburbs and rural zones, and happening only in cities initially.

Its the FIRST time, ever, that short vowel sounds have shifted.  Until this shift in sounds, the short vowel sounds had NEVER changed, going back to pre-old English germanic languages.

Dr. William Lebov seems to disagree with you.
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Madcow9000

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #37 on: 22 March 2012, 05:20:32 »
I'd just like to point out that language is an ever-changing thing.
What might be innapropriate and improper to say now in 2012 might be completely acceptable in 3025.
It's actually more likely that if we were to read something that far in the future and with culture spread out over that much terrain, the dialects and diversity would make it almost impossible for us to understand.
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StuartYee

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #38 on: 23 March 2012, 17:00:02 »
Not necessarily.  Cantonese and Mandarin are spelled the same way, but prounounced very differently, within the same country.

Or, in a narrower example: Cockney vs Northumbian.,

Your point is correct, but factually inaccurate. Words in Cantonese and Mandarin are not "spelled", as the Chinese writing system is composed of ideograms in which each character represents a meaning first, and then a sound. Moreover, Cantonese and Mandarin in written form have subtle differences. While Mandarin as it is written in Chinese is spoken the same way, there is a difference between how sentences are spoken in Cantonese, and how they are written. To be perfectly technical, Cantonese as it is spoken is not a written language.
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TS_Hawk

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #39 on: 10 August 2012, 22:45:52 »
So I'm reading Heir to the Dragon finally after all these years.  Love it so far and I don't know why it only took me 18 years or so to get to it.

But there is one issue I have---it feels like the Japanese language usage was taking from anime or something.  It's not realistic.

For example, in the beginning of the novel Takashi Kurita says "wakarimasu ka?" ("do you understand?") to his six year old son (later in the novel, this word is misspelled wakarimas).  An odd thing to say to one's own child, as this form of the verb is distal---it's what you would say to a stranger or a business partner or your boss, while one would speak in the direct style ("wakaru?") to one's own son.  But Takashi is precisely the kind of person who would talk in the distal style to his own son---so I think it works great.  But later, Takashi says to his now adult son so ka ("I see," "oh, really?"), which is direct style and familiar (rather than "soo desu ka," the distal style and the same style he used when he addressed his son as a six year old).  In fact, every time anyone says the phrase, it comes out as "so ka"---regardless of the circumstances---when "soo desu ka" probably would have been more appropriate.  On a similar note, I think the distance in the relationship between Theodore and Takashi would have been shown had Theodore said "domo arigato gozaimasu" when Takashi "congratulated" him upon his graduation, rather than the direct style and less-formal "domo arigato."

I've also noticed that every time someone says "yes," regardless of the circumstances or who they're talking to, it's "hai," but in most circumstances this is said, it would have been more appropriate to say "ha" ("yes, sir").

And outside of anime, I don't think most people call other adults with the suffixes "-kun" or "-chan," unless the two are very young adults or very close---otherwise it's demeaning.

Phew.  Sorry: it's sorta like watching a lawyer TV show where they get everything wrong.  I really can't complain, though, because I think the novel is outstanding.  And I reckon these issues I raise don't matter to the vast majority of readers (because y'all don't speak Japanese).

I think some of it has to do with that the people who settled the DCMS are not pure stock is probably the racist way of putting it but I wouldn't even say its an anime factor but the author has much as I like RC he didn't really delve into the language structure and other words. 

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HikageMaru

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Re: Japanese in BT Novels
« Reply #40 on: 19 August 2012, 12:48:44 »
I'd really buy the linguistic drift if the used it for characters speaking English as well.  Sure it would be like reading A Clockwork Orange all over again, but that's the price you pay for handwavium away foreign grammar mistakes.

That's real horrorshow.