BattleChat - 26. I. 2013

[SteveRestless]

It might be because of how panicky the forum gets whenever he mentions anything the slightest bit interesting.

Speaking personally, I'd be a lot less prone to panic, if we got fewer teases, and more information.

If I get more info, and its a change that I like, I'll be excited, and really eager for it to happen.

if I get more info and its a change that I don't like, I'll gripe, and groan, and wander off to focus on some other property. like, go back to my Super Robot Wars obsession, or try another game.

Its the lack of information that causes angst and panic. I'm tired of losing bits of the universe that I'm fond of, and if the plan is for dramatic enough changes, I'd rather know sooner, than later, so I can cut my losses and go. and if the plan isn't the sort of changes I dread, then I'd love to know more of what I can expect.

But I'm pretty heavily invested in the setting. Battletech is one of my favorite things ever. I'd hate to see it change too much when they've got so much about it right. At some point, it stops being battletech, stops resembling the thing I love. Just look at... almost all of the computer adapatations that weren't Mech2 and Mech3. They reinvented the whole damn thing, and I loathe them. Turns my guts to icewater to think that the same thing could happen to the tabletop game.

[BirdofPrey]

Frankly, I don't mind new storylines and such that we get as we go into new eras.  I hear people go on about how X era ruined Battletech, but I'm fine rolling with it and just ignoring storylines I don't like.
I can use the units in an era without roleplaying a story, and if I want to roleplay, I am going to pick a story I like.

I'd only be worried if they say they are replacing the rules with something completely different.  I have heard mention of new weapons and some streamlined rules for post dark age, but I haven't heard anything about them replacing the rules entirely, and I am do not believe this is them obsoleting current rules as much as adding a new option.



I do have to say, the comment on replacing the entire set of rulebooks with a single book and removing construction rules makes if Herb had his way me a sad panda .  I'm pretty sure Herb would mysteriously disappear if he tried it, though.  We love our construction rules, and the advanced stuff in the other books can be very nice to have.

Now, if we had a small book on QuickStrike rules on hexes released on it's own; that would be cool.  It's nice and fast, though if some of the posts I have seen in its section are anything to go by, there's spots it could use some revising with regards to aersospace and combined arms.

I'm in trouble again....

With whom?  THe panic this month has been less mass than it was when the post dark age stuff first came up

[Wrangler]

But I'm pretty heavily invested in the setting. Battletech is one of my favorite things ever. I'd hate to see it change too much when they've got so much about it right. At some point, it stops being battletech, stops resembling the thing I love. Just look at... almost all of the computer adapatations that weren't Mech2 and Mech3. They reinvented the whole damn thing, and I loathe them. Turns my guts to icewater to think that the same thing could happen to the tabletop game.

A agree with somewhat, like you this is my favorite tabletop game and i've invested alot into it too.  Emotionally and material wise.  When i really got into the franchise, the MWDA came online started bring in new avenue of game play.  Changing fabric which was known as big-mech pounding game with detail combat verses a quick, fast and agruably abstract system of play.

Video games did seem to offer differient view of the universe, changing things. However, i don't think that case here.

I worry with game play becomes abstract then it will stop being battletech.  I like seeing head shots happening for instance, Quickstrike card system okay, but it leaves me hollow. 

I'm confident that TPTB will won't change BT to point where it doesn't resemble BT.   Only thing is we have big problem right now.  Producing units is canonlly only produced by hand, which is hard work specially if you consider insanity large Aerospace units pose to people making them.  TPTB may not have a choice, but to change it so its not as insanely difficult to make new units for the game.  I hope they resolve those problems and keeping the game being crippled by fact its not easy to make units in first place.

[Nerroth]

I think that ultimately, what Quick Strike and/or BattleForce might need is the chance to breathe outside of the core BattleTech ruleset, the way that Federation Commander does relative to Star Fleet Battles.

There are plenty of SFB loyalists who don't care for any other SFU-related space combat game, but that hasn't stopped FC from establishing its own fanbase (which only partly overlaps with that of SFB), or from newer titles like the SFU adaptation of Starmada, or A Call to Arms: Star Fleet, from further adding their respective circles to the broader Venn diagram of Star Fleet Universe gamers.

Perhaps that could be where the 3250 box set can find its niche, as has been suggested already. No-one is going to stop "classic" BT players from using those minis in the core game engine, presumably in tandem with some sort of technical readout set in that post-Dark Age era. But, the intent of the box set in and of itself would be to help encourage the more streamlined ruleset.


But then, it might be flowing against the current in that regard. When Federation Commander was being developed, ADB went to great lengths to treat the game as its own thing, not just as "SFB lite". From the outset, FC has been intended to stand on its own merits, and not merely act as a sub-set of another rule system. (Certain tricks a player can get away with in SFB will get you killed in FC, and vice versa.) SFB is still the senior SFU game, but FC is no less valid a title.

Quick Strike might need a similar effort to present and promote it on its own terms before it can escape the connotation of being an optional set of rules buried in one of the rulebooks for the "real" game.

[Charlie Tango]

I thought that just related to video games.   

Nope.  FASA sold *ALL* electronic rights to BT to Microsoft.  For example, Rick Raisley had to license from Microsoft to be able to create and sell the Heavy Metal suite.

My confusion is as to how much work they have to do on a sheet.  I would have thought much of the work would already have to be done already when they do the stat sheet in the TRO to ensure they have statted a legal unit.

Creating the stats isn't the problem.   Creating the physical sheet is the problem.

[HABeas2]

Hello,

Creating the stats isn't the problem.   Creating the physical sheet is the problem.

No, creating stats is a problem too, especially for anything that's not a 'Mech--many times over if that something weighs more than 200 tons.

And, please, folks, I specifically avoided discussing anything post-Dark Age in the chats. I want it remembered, for the record, that I said absolutely NOTHING about post-Dark Age products in the chats. I did not even mention a year beyond 3145 in either chat, except to note that I would not discuss said years. I was EXTREMELY careful about that for a reason!

SO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!

Likewise, before anyone says a damned thing about my comment where I proposed replacing the entire core book line with a single rulebook sans construction rules, remember that the freaking question was "What product would you like to publish most, but cannot because of fan interest?". That means simplifying BattleTech back to a single rulebook is OFF the table, not ON it!

YOUR BATTLETECH ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE!

Please stop trying to get me in more trouble, and we can keep having these chats. Panic, and you lose them. I wish I was kidding about that.

Thanks,

- Herbert Beas

[Charlie Tango]

Hello,

No, creating stats is a problem too, especially for anything that's not a 'Mech--many times over if that something weighs more than 200 tons.

Sorry, Herb.  I was referring to things like 'Mechs, BA, vehicles, etc.  Apologies for not making that clear.

[MadCapellan]

The really hard ones are the 'Mechs that turn into fists and fly around and punch stuff.  So hard that Herb won't even let me write rules for them, even!

[SteveRestless]

The really hard ones are the 'Mechs that turn into fists and fly around and punch stuff.  So hard that Herb won't even let me write rules for them, even!

Well, Z's not a Real-Robot type. It's a Super Robot. You'd need a completely different ruleset for that. >_>

[Youngblood]

Well, Z's not a Real-Robot type. It's a Super Robot. You'd need a completely different ruleset for that. >_>

Oh, we're gettin' there, all right.  Today the 4th Capellan Defense Force's Point-Blank Attack, tomorrow the DRILL 'MECH.

(Not to mention the fiat-heavy broken-as-heck super attack the fourth Hastati have...)

[MadCapellan]

Oh, we're gettin' there, all right.  Today the 4th Capellan Defense Force's Point-Blank Attack, tomorrow the DRILL 'MECH.

Oh, you mean this guy!

[SCC]

I think AlphaStrike is something some people have been asking for for a while, consolidated QuickStrike rules

The Shadowrun thing is probably about Shadowrun stuff selling better

[BirdofPrey]

Creating the stats isn't the problem.   Creating the physical sheet is the problem.

I'm wondering if you would be able to go into detail as to what that entails.

If I need to make a sheet, I grab a blank one and copy down exactly what the TRO entry says, which doesn't take all that long.
Do you not stat alternate variants when you write up the alternate variants paragraph, or is there some other issue that comes into play?
I can't understand what takes so long unless you don't actually know what the unit is until you finish its sheet, but that's mostly because I don't understand what goes into a Record Sheet product behind the scenes.

And, please, folks, I specifically avoided discussing anything post-Dark Age in the chats. I want it remembered, for the record, that I said absolutely NOTHING about post-Dark Age products in the chats. I did not even mention a year beyond 3145 in either chat, except to note that I would not discuss said years. I was EXTREMELY careful about that for a reason!

SO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!

Does that mean we aren't getting a 33rd century boxed set?
You're right though, you haven't really said too much; most of this stuff is fan speculation creating boogeymen created in the vacuum created by you mentioning the era and not telling us anything about it.  Fans are silly like that; wanting to know more about everything and stuff like that.

I for one am ready for whatever comes our way.

Likewise, before anyone says a damned thing about my comment where I proposed replacing the entire core book line with a single rulebook sans construction rules, remember that the freaking question was "What product would you like to publish most, but cannot because of fan interest?". That means simplifying BattleTech back to a single rulebook is OFF the table, not ON it!

YOUR BATTLETECH ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE!

Please stop trying to get me in more trouble, and we can keep having these chats. Panic, and you lose them. I wish I was kidding about that.

Thanks,

- Herbert Beas

Oh I'm not worried at all,  I'm certain BT will be here in more or less the same form, for many more years to come. I know you never said anything about wanting to replace everything.  I was just taken by surprise by the comment that you would like to streamline everything into a single rulebook, which given what the books besides TW consist of, somewhat equates to 'death to optional advanced rules' (as it would take quite some effort to smash all those books into one depending on which ones we are counting, and would require some trimming), and that makes me wonder why you don't like advanced rules as much as some of us do (though I do agree with the warship assessment, having read the construction rules for large craft, they scare me too).

I'm probably reading too much into it, and don't mean to cause you undue stress. 
Gimme a new TRO to chew on, that'll shut me up :P

[Kit deSummersville]

Oh, you mean this guy!

When rolling on the punch table, a result of 6 indicates that a cavity was repaired.

[BirdofPrey]

When rolling on the punch table, a result of 6 indicates that a cavity was repaired.

Lol

Will novocaine reduce pilot damage when struck by one of those?

[DarkISI]

Lol

Will novocaine reduce pilot damage when struck by one of those?

No, but whatever drugs Kit takes before posting such responses does.

[Wrangler]

When rolling on the punch table, a result of 6 indicates that a cavity was repaired.

Does this include the fluid gun to fill that cavity to complete the repair?

[SCC]

Likewise, before anyone says a damned thing about my comment where I proposed replacing the entire core book line with a single rulebook sans construction rules, remember that the freaking question was "What product would you like to publish most, but cannot because of fan interest?". That means simplifying BattleTech back to a single rulebook is OFF the table, not ON it!

Actually Herb, as long as you stick to Tournament Legal that's pretty much the current state of the game, apart from the games rules section in each items construction details box in Tech Manual, which normally covers the rules regarding the equipments operation (like does it still work when the pilot is unconsciousness)

[HABeas2]

Hello,

Does that mean we aren't getting a 33rd century boxed set?

I am afraid we cannot discuss that at this time.

Oh I'm not worried at all,  I'm certain BT will be here in more or less the same form, for many more years to come. I know you never said anything about wanting to replace everything.  I was just taken by surprise by the comment that you would like to streamline everything into a single rulebook, which given what the books besides TW consist of, somewhat equates to 'death to optional advanced rules' (as it would take quite some effort to smash all those books into one depending on which ones we are counting, and would require some trimming), and that makes me wonder why you don't like advanced rules as much as some of us do (though I do agree with the warship assessment, having read the construction rules for large craft, they scare me too).

Because these days, a great many people have a great many other things to do with their time. I love BattleTech, but even I couldn't play it 24/7, and more options and more complexity, to me, means way less fun. I actually am rather slow at math. It takes me a while to add up modifiers for a simple weapon attack, and my brain just about seizes up when someone talks about Ghost Targets. Meanwhile our construction processes for some units have grown so complicated that even with software, no three people can seem to get the same numbers to work out from the same basic stats. That's not "fun" to me; that's argument fodder. And while the older vets of the game may see it as part of the charm, I can only guess what it does for potential players looking for a fun new tabletop system to get into.

But again, that's not something the fan base has demonstrated a real desire for, so don't worry.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas

[Hersh67]

YOUR BATTLETECH ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE!

Please stop trying to get me in more trouble, and we can keep having these chats. Panic, and you lose them. I wish I was kidding about that.

Thanks,

- Herbert Beas

<Kicks a can down the alley>  Nuts.  BattleTech isn't going anywhere.  Herb said...  Nuts.  [Just kidding Herb, remember: anything you say can be misquoted and used against you in the court of public opinion...]

[HABeas2]

Hello,

When I lose my job because of public opinion, I'll be sure and remember that...  :P

Thanks,

- Herbert Beas

[Stormlion1]

Don't worry Herb. We still bow to the will of the kittys and their nukes so your popularity will remain high as long as they have a paw on the big red button.

[HABeas2]

Hello,

The cats won't be the ones firing me.

Thanks,

- Herbert Beas

[BirdofPrey]

Because these days, a great many people have a great many other things to do with their time. I love BattleTech, but even I couldn't play it 24/7, and more options and more complexity, to me, means way less fun. I actually am rather slow at math. It takes me a while to add up modifiers for a simple weapon attack, and my brain just about seizes up when someone talks about Ghost Targets. Meanwhile our construction processes for some units have grown so complicated that even with software, no three people can seem to get the same numbers to work out from the same basic stats. That's not "fun" to me; that's argument fodder. And while the older vets of the game may see it as part of the charm, I can only guess what it does for potential players looking for a fun new tabletop system to get into.

Can't say I disagree with that assesment.
I'm  numbers guy, so modifiers don't bother me too much (aside from the fact that I often forget what applies), but from games our local demo agent has run, I can see how the complexity causes game length problems, with around 6 players running 2-4 units each we were lucky if a round took less than an hour and a half to complete, and we were always calling the game for time.  At the same time, I like having the extra options for smaller, quicker games (and more importantly for me, the option of a higher level of detail for role-playing)  My favorite stuff is things like the expanded crit rules, and ECCM and floating crits are things I can't live without.

Now double blind, that's great for megameck, but the only way I can think to make it work in person is with small number of forces where the GM is running one of them.


If you were to give us something between quick strike (the over-simplicity has some downsides since we do like blowing the arms and legs of mechs, and it wouldn't be BT without the occasional AC-20 to the face) and total warfare, (which sometimes takes a while), I'd be the first in line to buy it.

Hello,

When I lose my job because of public opinion, I'll be sure and remember that...  :P

Thanks,

- Herbert Beas

They wouldn't *gasp* dream of taking your finger off the big red button, would they?

[HABeas2]

Hello,

I'm  numbers guy, so modifiers don't bother me too much (aside from the fact that I often forget what applies), but from games our local demo agent has run, I can see how the complexity causes game length problems, with around 6 players running 2-4 units each we were lucky if a round took less than an hour and a half to complete, and we were always calling the game for time.  At the same time, I like having the extra options for smaller, quicker games (and more importantly for me, the option of a higher level of detail for role-playing)  My favorite stuff is things like the expanded crit rules, and ECCM and floating crits are things I can't live without.

A few modifiers are fine, but honestly, one thing that makes it hard for me is that my ears and eyes don't switch off when I have to math out my modifiers. I can add a few things, but you'll actually see me tapping the table or counting on my fingers to keep it in my head when other people are talking or doing things around me. (Side note: I used to get in trouble with my wife for being unable to keep my eyes on her in a restaurant, because every motion or TV screen distracted me.... I'll note that she felt her addiction to that Blackberry of hers was completely normal and in no way comparable. Fortunately, we no longer have that problem, since we're divorced.)

I learned BattleTech one rule at a time, back in the days of the BattleTech Compendium, when virtually all needed rules were in that one book, and extra stuff came along in the form of Tac Handbook, MaxTech, and the 2nd Edition MechWarrior RPG. The books spaced relatively far apart, and they didn't have nearly so many weapon options. But then BattleTech had something of an arms-and-rules race around the late 1990s. People loved fun options, and who could blame them? But, as I noticed when reworking the RPG to make AToW, it had all reached a point where rules were starting to fill pages instead of paragraphs. The dichotomy of the 3rd Edition RPG even managed to force several new innovations to come with two distinct sets of rules due to the different dice mechanics and such involved. Somewhere in the 2000s, I got lost in it myself, and one shining example was a GenCon where someone quoted me asking aloud "how does Stealth Armor work again?"

The scary part? I authored many of these rules myself!

Pro-tip: Beating the Line Developer of BattleTech these days is a freaking cake walk if you use anything made after 3058. I have no idea how to effectively use any EW gear any more, so I've stopped trying.

They wouldn't *gasp* dream of taking your finger off the big red button, would they?

If I represent a danger to the line by causing too many panics or making too many bad decisions? Oh hell yeah! Nobody's irreplaceable.

Thanks,

- Herbert Beas

[Alexander Knight]

Oh, you mean this guy!

Ohhhh Crap.  Big Daddy's here.

Look man, I wasn't anywhere NEAR the Little Sister!  Honest!  I promise!  It was all those dirty Lyrans!

[Summoner]

Hello,

I am afraid we cannot discuss that at this time.

Because these days, a great many people have a great many other things to do with their time. I love BattleTech, but even I couldn't play it 24/7, and more options and more complexity, to me, means way less fun. I actually am rather slow at math. It takes me a while to add up modifiers for a simple weapon attack, and my brain just about seizes up when someone talks about Ghost Targets. Meanwhile our construction processes for some units have grown so complicated that even with software, no three people can seem to get the same numbers to work out from the same basic stats. That's not "fun" to me; that's argument fodder. And while the older vets of the game may see it as part of the charm, I can only guess what it does for potential players looking for a fun new tabletop system to get into.

But again, that's not something the fan base has demonstrated a real desire for, so don't worry.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas

Herb,

Thanks for that post.  I think I really understand where you are coming from much better now.  Also, if the line developer has trouble doing the math for a simple attack, then I don't feel so bad.  Because it takes me 30 seconds and notepad to add to 9 half the time.

Generally, the surefire way to not grow anything is to cater to purists.  But the problem is, when you don't you aggravate your "base".  It's a double edged sword. Good luck.

You have my full support!

[Atlas3060]

Oh, you mean this guy!

Gurren Laggan!
We get this mech and a Geshtalt battle armor to COMBINE and create  the greatest Solaris fighter ever!

I'm just hoping for more Quick Strike stuff down the line, regardless of Eras. It is so much fun.  :)
I created a fun experiment with my group and played out a First Strike! scenario with Quick Strike stuff.
We were able to play it two times and still have enough time to wonder if we should grinder out the rest of the day or just chat and joke around.
Normally the TW scale would have lasted the full 6 hours we play.

[cold1]

Hello,

When I lose my job because of public opinion, I'll be sure and remember that...  :P

Thanks,

- Herbert Beas

What???  Battletech is better than ever right now. 

You guys are churning out kick ass stuff by the truckload.  I think public opinion is very much on your side.

Change is inevitable.  The story has to move forward.  Grognards need to lighten up.  People hated the clans when they came and now they are a major part of the BTU.  If you're stuck in 3025 fine stay there but don't hate on the majority of us interested in seeing the story progress.

And please don't hate on the devs and writers... the story might not be what you want but they work really hard on it, and to be quite honest most of us couldn't even do close to the work they do.

Rant over, be nice to Herb because he keeps the Big stompy robots marching. (and he has all te nukes)

[BigAl]

In the second BattleChat,  around 2:15 to 2:17 mark,  Habaes2 describe the next "TRO" will have 200 units of known equipment from the Dark Age and some unknown ones too.  Will that make the next "TRO" 400 pages  long?   
 The reason why I ask is in previous BattleChats  Hebaes2 said that "TRO" will be smaller than TRO "3085" size.

It will not bother me at all if the next "TRO" is big,  I enjoy them very much.